279: They’re Shooting the Priests

Summary

Podcast Summary: Conspirituality — Episode 279: "They’re Shooting the Priests"

Date: October 16, 2025
Hosts: Derek Beres, Matthew Remski, Julian Walker
Main Theme: The collision of spiritual/religious resistance and authoritarian crackdowns, as exemplified by ICE violence against clergy and the broader dynamics of conspirituality, nationalism, and U.S. politics.

---

Episode Overview

This episode investigates the alarming escalation of U.S. federal force, namely by ICE, against clergy protesting on behalf of immigrants—most graphically, the shooting of a priest in Chicago with pepper balls. Through historical, social, and spiritual lenses, the hosts unravel the meaning of these attacks, the shifting alliances between religion and fascist (or anti-fascist) forces, and the organizing power embedded in faith communities. The conversation juxtaposes earnest, on-the-ground activism against a backdrop of meme-ified conspirituality, revealing how spiritual traditions are weaponized, corrupted, or redeemed in times of national crisis.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. ICE Violence Against Clergy (02:03–06:47; 41:55–53:00)

• Incident Highlight: In Chicago, Reverend David Black was shot multiple times in the head, face, and body with pepper balls by ICE agents while leading a prayer protest. He described hearing agents laugh while firing.
  • "He could hear the shooters laughing as they did it. Thereafter, ICE came out of the building in force and doused the protesters in tear gas. We've honed in on this disturbing moment to ask if what we've seen so far had not crossed a red line for the American public." — Matthew, 02:24
• Discussion: The symbolic act of shooting clergy—especially while praying—marks a disturbing escalation possibly designed to intimidate and delegitimize protest.
• Clergy as Organizers: Behind every priest or nun stand hundreds of parishioners, making attacks on clergy not just symbolic but potentially explosive in mobilizing community resistance.

2. Religion as Protector vs. Collaborator (03:39–06:47; 40:46–41:55)

• Antifa vs. Clergy: Clergy-led protests may present a broader threat to oppressive systems, given how many people identify with traditional religious institutions compared to anti-fascist groups.
• Historical "Effeminacy" Trope: Violence toward religious figures may be partly rationalized by dismissing clergy as weak or effeminate—an echo of fascist machismo.

3. Portland vs. Chicago: The Role of Satire and Privilege (06:47–11:27)

• Portland's Satirical Resistance: Reverend Dr. Chuck Curry and other Portanders use mockery and costumes (frogs, bears, unicorns) to undermine ICE and right-wing framing of the city as a "war zone."
  • "'Portland is not a hellscape... If the National Guard can help with alphabetizing our free libraries, fine. But unless they're here to do that, I don't think we need help.'" — Rev. Chuck Curry (clip), 06:58
• Privilege and Protest: Portland’s predominantly white demographics afford it a form of protest that’s less dangerous (for now), and the hosts note legacy impacts of Oregon’s racist constitution.
• Contrast: In Chicago, direct violence and large-scale detentions target Black and brown communities.

4. Clergy's Direct Action and Legal Strategies (41:55–46:53)

• Biblical Framing: Protesters, especially clergy, invoke biblical commandments to "welcome the stranger" and protect the vulnerable.
• Legal Action: Lawsuits are being filed based on First and Fourth Amendment protections and the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, arguing that targeting clergy is religious discrimination.
• Tactics: Clergy de-escalate conflicts by singing hymns and forming prayer vigils directly in the path of ICE operations.

5. Christian Nationalism, Fascism, and Opportunistic Religion (19:06–39:27)

• Historical Parallels: The hosts trace how fascist regimes (Italy, Germany, Spain) both partnered with and persecuted religious institutions for convenience, power, or ideology.
• MAGA & “Militant Woo”: The contemporary collision of conspiracy, pseudo-science, and spirituality mirrors fascist manipulations of faith, with today's anti-vax/alt-wellness influencers frequently invoking religious themes for validation and profit.
  • “A fascist movement needs a militant woo wing that has to be cordoned off from the top dogs because it’s too volatile… the militant woosters provide cover.” — Matthew, 24:52
• The New Age/Wellness Pipeline: Anti-vaxx sentiment historically intertwines with spiritual and religious arguments that “playing God” is sinful.

6. Church as Social Infrastructure vs. Neoliberal Wellness (28:14–30:08)

• Organizing Power: Unlike the fragmented and transactional world of alternative wellness, churches offer tangible social services and communal spaces, which can be a potent organizing force against oppression.
  • "The social service support of churches large and small... is just not part of what the infrastructure of wellness offers." — Matthew, 29:26

7. Liberation Theology and the Papacy (47:00–55:37)

• Liberation Theology's Resurgence: David Inczocs, a Jesuit priest, is seen as emblematic of faith-led liberation—leading communion protests, referencing Marxist theology, and channeling direct solidarity with the oppressed.
• Papal Messaging: Newly inaugurated Pope Leo’s first exhortation, Dilexite, is openly liberation-theological and anti-capitalist, marking a dramatic shift from the Vatican:
  • "Our response to the challenges posed by contemporary migration can be summed up in four verbs: Welcome, protect, promote, and integrate... the church must continue to denounce the dictatorship of an economy that kills." — Pope Leo (quoted), 54:14–55:35
• Historical Reversal: In past eras, radical Catholics like Daniel Berrigan were marginalized or abandoned by the church; today, at least for now, the Vatican appears to back faith-based resistance.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Clergy as Protesters:
  “Behind every surplus and stole stands dozens or maybe even hundreds of parishioners.” — Matthew, 03:39

• Portland Satire:
  “If the National Guard can help alphabetize books or do the Dewey decimal system, I don’t think we really need any help. But thanks anyway.” — Rev. Chuck Curry (clip), 06:58

• Mockery as Superpower:
  "Mockery is our superpower and it’s working to great effect online." — Derek, 07:40

• On Law and Religion:
  “People usually perceive the First Amendment protects the government from religion, but in reality, it was probably more written to protect religion from the government.” — (paraphrased) Matthew, 43:09

• Liberation Theology in Action:
  “The detention of migrants is evil, and the deportation of migrants is evil. This evil is unacceptable in the eyes of our loving God.” — Fr. David Inczocs, 50:17

• On Papal Anti-Capitalism:
  “Church must continue to denounce the dictatorship of an economy that kills... A new tyranny is being born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules.” — Pope Leo (exhortation quoted), 55:03

---

Important Timestamps & Segments

• [02:03] — Start of show’s main topic: ICE violence, clergy, and protest framing
• [03:39] — Historical framing of clergy’s organizing power vs. anti-fascist street protestors
• [06:47] — Reverend Dr. Chuck Curry’s satirical account of Portland’s “hellscape”
• [13:47] — Clergy-led activism and progressive church messaging in Portland
• [19:06–39:27] — Comparative authoritarian histories: Fascism, religion, and the weaponization of faith
• [41:55–46:53] — On-the-ground actions by clergy, legal strategies, and specific accounts of violence
• [50:17] — Fr. David Inczocs’ speech at the Chicago ICE protest
• [54:14] — Quoting Pope Leo’s exhortation “Dilexite” and discussion of liberation theology

---

Overall Tone & Takeaways

Tone:
A sobering, incisive, at times wryly humorous critique, balancing scholarly analysis with personal anecdotes and poignant clips from the front lines.

Core Message:
Attacks on clergy during protest signal a new, dangerous threshold in authoritarian overreach—yet faith communities present a formidable organizing counterweight. The organizing traditions, legal infrastructure, and living theology within religious communities (especially as expressed in liberation theology and current papal statements) offer resistance that blends the spiritual with the political, challenging both state violence and the opportunism of conspirituality-driven influencers.

---

For Further Listening & Action

• Episodes on Dietrich Bonhoeffer and the historical relationship between fascism and the church (referenced in segment, 45:12)
• Next brief covering CIA’s efforts to undermine liberation theology in Latin America

---

This episode provides a crucial, historically anchored understanding for anyone concerned with the intersections of faith, protest, and authoritarianism in contemporary America.

Transcript

[A]

Oh, the car from Carvana's here.

[B]

Well, will you look at that.

[C]

It's exactly what I ordered.

[A]

Like precisely.

[C]

It would be crazy if there were any catches. But there aren't, right? Right. Because that's how car buying should be with Carvana.

[A]

You get the car you want, choose delivery or pickup and a week to.

[B]

Love it or return it.

[C]

Buy your car today with Carvana.

[A]

Delivery or pickup fees may apply.

[C]

Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our 7 day return policy at.

[B]

Carvana.com had 30 agents ready to go.

[C]

With shotguns and rifles and you name it.

[B]

Five, six white people pushed me in the car.

[A]

I'm going, what the hell?

[B]

Basically your stay at home moms were.

[A]

Picking up these large amounts of heroin.

[B]

All you gotta do is receive the package. Don't have to open it, just accept it.

[A]

She was very upset, crying.

[B]

Once I saw the gun, I tried.

[A]

To take his hand and I saw the flash of light.

[B]

Listen to the Chinatown Sting wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

Hey everyone. Welcome to Conspirituality where we investigate the intersections of conspiracy theories and spiritual influence to uncover cults, pseudoscience and authoritarian extremism. I'm Derek Barris.

[C]

I'm Matthew Remsky.

[B]

I'm Julian Walker.

[A]

You can find us on Instagram and threads conspiritualitypod as well as individually. We are all over on Blue sky and you can access all of our episodes ad free, plus our Monday bonus episodes on [e-mail] conspirituality. You can also grab our Monday bonus episodes via Apple subscriptions every Monday if that is your platform of choice. As independent media creators, we appreciate your support and no, we will not be selling our site to Barry Weiss anytime soon.

[B]

Spirituality279 they're shooting the priests. Ice is on the loose in our cities, acting with seeming impunity, ramming cars, smashing windows, zip tying kids in pajamas and endangering babies. They've repelled from Black Hawk helicopters, thrown journalists and protesters to the ground and and belligerently refused to unmask, provide identification or present warrants for the people they are kidnapping. Amongst the social media videos documenting this despicable stormtrooper behavior, as well as hundreds of moments of brave community protection and small protests outside ICE facilities involving face offs with protesters in frog or chicken outfits, came another image, that of a priest being hit in the head and knocked to the ground by a pepper ball shot from the ICE building rooftop. He was part of a quite small group of protesters and had just been praying with his arms raised as he looked up at the three figures in military gear standing on the roof. Reverend David Black said he was actually hit multiple times in the head, the face and the body before being shielded by his compatriots, and that he could hear the shooters laughing as they did it. Thereafter, ICE came out of the building in force and doused the protesters in tear gas. We've honed in on this disturbing moment to ask if what we've seen so far had not crossed a red line for the American public. What does it mean to shoot at a priest protesting injustice with prayer?

[C]

So I've got two sort of setup opening comments to tie this episode back to the last several weeks in which we've looked at the Kirk Memorial and Also Trump's memo NPSM 7, which sics the federal agencies on anti American and anti capitalist and paradoxically anti Christian thought crimes. We'll see how that plays out in the context here. And the first question I have is, is it antifa or is it clergy? And I just want to say that I'm going to guess that the clergy, women and men who are standing up to ICE at the present moment represent far greater numbers in terms of the parishes and communities they serve than any anti fascist or antifa group leader or cell would represent. Behind every surplus and stole stands dozens or maybe even hundreds of parishioners. One of the guys I'll talk about later is a chaplain at Loyola University Chicago. You know, and meanwhile, behind every black bloc protester you might find four to five support people that are willing to raise bail or offer medical care or a couch to sleep on if the person has to lie low. And the thing is that none of Trump's MPSM7 memo touches clergy unless they are super woke progressive Christians who can be accused of gender extremism. And, and this really makes me wonder what it would take to slide over into actually accusing protesting clergy of thought crimes. Now, relatedly, as you referred to Julian, what does the collar and the stole and the habit mean in this landscape? And speaking as, you know, a cradle Catholic with enough muscle memory on board to have a really specific response to seeing, you know, a guy in a collar or a woman in a habit? I can say that there's this instant conveyance of some kind of apartness from the world, some kind of specialness, warranted or not. And my instinct is to walk carefully in their midst. Now that could be different. I could have the muscle memory to flinch if I'd been a clerical abuse victim. But seeing these scenes of military assault on Clerics reminded me of the preachers and the liturgical performers at the Kirk funeral and how they were not generally collar inhabit people. They looked a lot more like influencers that if you went to their church music Instagram pages, there would be mlm and supplements links in the link tree. And it made me wonder whether tolerance for beating up guys in collars or women in habits might in part be coming from a rejection of an assumed clerical weakness or effeminacy. Which is something that we're going to get to when we talk about the history of, you know, religion and fascism. You know, maybe the sort of feeling is, well, they're nerds and if they're Catholic, they're probably gay anyway, it's fine to roll them. And I think that this sets us up to look at how the regime is looking at Derek, your hometown of Portland more generally.

[A]

Hey y', all, this is Reverend Dr. Chuck Curry. You know, I keep hearing about how here in Portland right now, this very moment, we are living in hell, a warscape. And you know, I've been looking for evidence of that and I think I found it. Look here.

[D]

This is a free library.

[A]

We've got these all over in Portland. They are not using the Dewey decimal system in this free library, not one bit. The books are not even alphabetized. This is in fact hell. And if the National Guard can help with that, fine. But unless they're here to alphabetize books or do the Dewey decimal system, I don't think we really need any help. But thanks anyway, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

Thanks, Trump. This cuts close to home. I mean, I don't talk a lot about my relationship with my wife, but she organizes books by color and she is a designer, so that kind of makes sense. But it infuriates me. And you can hear, you can hear. Old Chuck here has his own problems, which I also agree with.

[B]

Chaos. Chaos. Dogs and cats sleeping together.

[A]

Hey, Bob Marley said that. Well, I guess not the sleeping together. So you just heard United Church of Christ clergy and Pacific University chaplain and Professor Emeritus Reverend Dr. Chuck Curry. And he's talking about things close to my heart because Portland's little libraries are awesome. They're all over the city. I drop off all my used books at them. I pick some up if I find something I want. We used to have one right in front of the townhouse pod that I live in until someone fucking vandalized and destroyed it for some God awful reason. But I regularly check in and out books from them. Now Chuck here is using library to talk about something bigger, which is Portland is not a hellscape. He's also on his bike when he's, he's making that message, which is also close to my heart. And like a lot of Portlanders, he's using sarcasm and mockery to show how little of what the Trump administration is saying about our city is true. I know we're going to talk about other cities where clergy is being shot at and their responses, but opening here with a little levity might ease us in. Now, my social media feeds are tuned to Portland right now. I've, like, I've likewise been seeing what's happening in Chicago, which is much different. And I think that actually makes for a really important dialogue about how to effectively resist in push back to what's happening depending on where you are geographically and what you can offer. Now, Trump sent ICE to terrorize brown and black people in Chicago. Meanwhile here, he's been using five year old footage to claim Portland is on fire. Now, the goal is the same on a federal level, but the approach is different. And that hasn't been lost to people online. So I've seen a number of commenters note that Portland's response with mockery and satire and can only happen because we're a predominantly white city and there is some truth in this. But it's also important to use that privilege, at least while we can. So just for a little bit of history, Oregon is the only state in which black exclusion laws were written into our state constitution. And that legacy has not been exactly inviting to non whites. That language, even though it was written in 1845, I believe wasn't removed until 2002. And even then, not every politician votes noted for its absence, which in this current situation makes Portland's white privilege an asset. Mockery is our superpower and it's working to great effect online and for people who are seeing what's happening in front of ice. Even Joe Scarborough on Morning Joe, who initially towed the Portland is on Fire line, like two weeks ago, he changed his tune. Once the local station KATU set up a 24 hour live stream focused on the ice building. And so recently, more recently, he's been laughing along with the other hosts as dozens of people in frog, bear and unicorn costumes dance around while armed agents stand on the roof peering down and occasionally shooting rubber bullets at them. We just had an emergency world naked bike ride to protest and hundreds of cyclists showed up. Many did wear clothing because it was pouring rain. All, all on Sunday, but some were actually out there completely naked. There was a brass band, there were Plenty of frogs, unicorns. Unicorns, bears. Garfield was there and they greeted the cyclist as they pulled up to the ice facility. So here's a moment captured by Bike Portland. I mean, extremely violent behavior going on.

[B]

It sounds like Mardi Gras. It sounds like you're in New Orleans.

[A]

And it looked like that too. It's from a two minute video. Bike Portland's a great follow for if you're local. And yeah, it was, it was a very joyous celebration. There was a counter protest though, by a few dozen MAGA stands who set up a banner with Charlie Kirk standing in front of a cross. Which is pretty ironic given the nature of today's show, the whole no graven image thing. Now this Saturday will be a little more serious here because we, like many other cities across the nation, will be partaking in the no Kings protest. But overall, you can't contest the power of people wearing inflatable animal costumes mocking the entire charade. Now, mockery works until it doesn't. The citizens, from what I can see, they're not armed. More right wing influencers and instigators are congregating, trying to create that gotcha moment here. And at some point the privilege will run out. Then it's not going to matter what shade your skin is or if you're a person of the clothes. Which is why some local clergy are speaking out. Have been speaking out for many months here. I mean, it's not an overwhelming amount because Portland, Portland leads the country in terms of per capita for two things, which is kind of ironic, strip clubs and churches. So we have 736 churches in the city. The greater region is 2300. But we are seeing some real activity from, from people from those churches. On September 29, a number of faith leaders met at Augustana Lutheran Church in Northeast to prot. Ice. And speaking of Lutherans, Pastor Ron Werner told the Atlantic, I showed up to.

[B]

Oppose the misuse of military power in our city at a time when everything is relatively peaceful. We're committed to nonviolent protest and action.

[C]

Derek. I imagine with 736 churches, a bunch of them, maybe the majority are not actually going to be progressive. Have there been any clerical counter protests to the protests against ice?

[A]

I haven't seen any of that. I mean, yeah, a lot of the churches are storefronts and strip malls and old houses like the ones in my neighborhood are very old. And there's a, there's a lot of evangelical churches here. There's a couple cult like ones. So yeah, it's a, it's a broad number, but I, I have not seen any instances of. Of clergy coming out for ice, for example.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We also have Adam Ericson, who is a progressive pastor at Clackamas United Church of Christ. Now, I see this church all the time, both on my bike rides, but also because they host a popular local notice board and they regular. I mean, for years they've posted progressive messages like it is cheaper to house everyone than to have anyone on the streets. Another one is Jesus never condemned being gay. He did condemn being greedy.

[C]

Yes, very true.

[A]

A more recent one is from Portland to Palestine, occupation is a crime, flagging ISIS presence with the genocide in Gaza. He also posted this video around the same time that he put up that church sign.

[D]

Hey everybody, it's Pastor Adam. I am here in Portland at the ICE facility with a whole bunch of other clergy and people of faith from the Portland area and Belong and beyond to rise up and say no to ICE and yes to our fellow human beings, our immigrant siblings who are created in the image of God. You know, scripture says over and over again that we are to love the immigrant in our midst as if they are a native born. It also says Jesus himself says how we treat the stranger in our midst is how we treat him. Christianity especially has a long way to go to make up for our divine mandate to love our neighbor, including our immigrant neighbors, as we love ourselves. God bless.

[A]

As I've long said, I'm not particularly a fan of religious beliefs, but I love any community that rises up to fight against injustice. I don't think we need a divine mandate to be a good human being, and I'm glad that they are out there in this fight. To me, it's especially true when it comes to religious communities because of the whole love your neighbor thing. That sometimes means, at the very least, making room for neighbors who you might not like very much, but you can at least recognize your shared humanity. And everything ICE is doing right now is aimed at dehumanizing the targets of their violence, which makes the violence palatable to MAGA and their stands. Even this might be a losing proposition, though, because a recent Gallup poll found that 79% of U.S. adults say immigration is good for the country, which is the highest percentage ever recorded. Now we're seeing some signs that Trump has pushed too hard, and I don't think shooting clergy in the head with pepper balls is going to help their cause. Derek here, co founder of Conspirituality and podcast accountant. We all bring our personal strengths to this podcast and given that I've worked for a number of fintech companies over the last decade. I handle the receipts. I've seen a lot of good and not so good all in one business solutions in my time and Found does it really well. Found identifies tasks that create the most hassle for small businesses, categorizing expenses, tax prep, invoicing, budgeting. And they built an app that does it all directly from your business checking account. They have automated expense tracking, finding write offs and budgeting for tax time along with things like sending invoices and paying contractors. All from one app. So if you run a small business, take back control of your business. Today. Open a Found account for [e-mail] that's f o n d.com found is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services are provided by lead bank member fdic. Join the hundreds of thousands who've already streamlined their finances with Found.

[B]

All right, so this is super exciting to me. Emmy Award winner Kerry Washington returns as Dr. Virginia Edwards in Audible's heart pounding supernatural thriller the Prophecy Season 2. Yes, I said Audible. I know. I listen to audiobooks, mostly of the dry research variety for this podcast on Audible, but they apparently also do this kind of supernatural thriller with stars like Kerry Washington. You know who else is in it? Giancarlo Esposito. Remember him from Breaking Bad? Here's some of the blurb. Follow every twist and turn as Virginia and her miracle son Joshua flee from Detroit pursued by the simple Luther Bell and his Morning Stars cult. Each perilous step of their journey is guided by Virginia's haunting visions while Bell's forces close in, threatening to tear their world apart. Evil is rising. Time is running out. Do not miss Kerry Washington in Audible's new must listen the Prophecy season two. You can go to audible.com prophecy2 that's the number two. And start listening today. I will see you there.

[E]

Imagine fast hydration combined with balanced energy, perfectly flavored with zero artificial sweeteners.

[C]

Introducing Liquid Ivy's new energy multiplier, Sugar free.

[E]

Unlike other energy drinks, you know the ones that make you feel like you're glitching. It's made with natural caffeine and electrolytes so you get the boost without the burnout.

[C]

Liquid IV's new energy multiplier, Sugar free Hydrating energy.

[E]

Tap the banner to learn more.

[B]

So Trump's opportunistic alliance with Christian nationalism and Catholic conservatism, alongside his ICE henchmen's willingness to crack down on priests protesting their mass abduction of civilians, mirror historical dynamics and Given how much we're all using the term fascism these days, which harkens back around 100 years and has continued since I looked into some history as I prepared for today, I find that religious faith and political power maintain a roughly similar uneasy truce in all democracies. But authoritarian regimes vary widely in their relationship to the priest. In theocracies, he, and it seems to always be a man can enjoy unquestioned power as the scripture he preaches constitutes the law of the land. Minority sects, apostates, atheists and blasphemers then suffer God's wrath at the flick of his pen. Theocracies has often historically been in bed with monarchies because they work together to perpetuate inequality. The clergy and the royal families have been first to face the firing squad in communist revolutions. Islamist revolutions have tended to follow suit by brutally purging those same communists with whom they had either collaborated or fought against in coming to power during and after communist revolutions. Thousands of priests have been executed or died in gulags, along with others designated as enemies of the state or counter revolutionaries. This was especially the case under Stalin, but also Mao and Castro. The same story applied under the Second Spanish Republic during the Civil War of the 1930s that would bring Franco to power from the far right. Fascism, as originally implemented by Benito Mussolini in the 1920s in Italy, exploited legitimate fears of the Red terror unfolding in Russia. And although Mussolini had often reviled religion, he aligned himself strategically with the Catholic Church. After the lateran treaty of 1929, he made Catholicism the official religion of Italy and recognized Vatican City as an independent nation. Adolf Hitler likewise paid lip service to Christianity while rejecting religion behind closed doors. Germany at the time had very high levels of religious identification. The country was majority Protestant, minority Catholic. Hitler really wanted religion to be subsumed under the power of the state and of his nationalist racial identity. But in his early days, he would call himself a Christian in his speeches and even at times, a Catholic. As with Mussolini, the Vatican signed a treaty with the emerging German Reich in 1933, and this guaranteed the rights of the Church within the country, but in exchange for bishops taking an oath of loyalty to the leader of the regime and agreeing not to work for or in political parties. This was partly to maintain some influence and role in the society. It was a compromise that the Vatican made, but it was also partly based in the fear of communist revolutionaries seizing all their assets and then imprisoning or killing them. Now, at the same time, the Nazis created a theology called Positive Christianity that justified Nazism as divinely ordained. It was taught within something they called the Protestant Reich Church, which sought to unify Protestant denominations behind this political ideology. And this actually continued Otto von Bismarck's late 19th century Anti Catholic culture Kampf, which was a struggle to try to make Protestant Christianity part of the German identity. Positive Christianity did away with the meek, self sacrificing failures of a Jewish Messiah, emphasizing instead the bold, heroic preacher, somehow of Aryan descent, who actually fought against the Jews. And then they also downplayed the crucifixion, because that's kind of a loser move, right?

[C]

The muscular Jesus. The original muscular Jesus, Yeah.

[B]

But by 1937, the Nazis had issued decrees forbidding members of their party from participating in religious organizations. And they encouraged a kind of deconversion from Christian denominations while still requiring the type of belief in God deemed necessary for loyalty and respect toward authority. And this non denominational God carried the more deist overtones of Germanic folk religion. Hitler initially privileged Catholicism and Protestantism and attempted to eradicate obviously Judaism and Jews. But he also banned more fringe religious groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Seventh Day Adventists and the Baha'. I. And interestingly, he also banned esoteric practices like folk healing, fortune telling, witchcraft and astrology in these early moves, which contradicts the fact that the elite inner circles of the Nazis, especially Heinrich Himmler and Alfred Rosenberg, were actually obsessed with occultism, with the Bhagavad Gita, with Social Darwinism and a kind of spiritualized warrior aesthetic of racial purity.

[A]

This isn't a direct correlation, but it's interesting that MAGA has MAHA to push forward similar pseudoscience, pseudo religious concepts. For the most part, the rest of MAGA brass avoids Kennedy's wellness shtick outside of the broader anti vax talking points. But Maha in a sense has taken up this aesthetic in the administration, even though, like I said, a lot of them don't. Although Trump has been talking about not getting into heaven recently. So there, there is some reflection going on. Maybe, maybe post stroke, as some doctors are speculating.

[C]

Yeah, it seems if the pseudoscience is more sort of technical, if you can really sort of pin it on the mechanism of the vaccine or Tylenol, then that is something that the brass can accept. But once we get into like squirting blue juice down your throat or, you know, juice cleanses or things like that, then it gets a little militant woo. And I do think, however, Derek, that the correlation is pretty direct. Like it seems, I think it seems as though a fascist movement needs a militant woo. Wing that has to be cordoned off from the top dogs because it's like too volatile, it's too fluid, you know, it's too interpretable. Maybe the militant Woosters provide cover. Like I'm thinking about how Maha is really necessary to get the Maha mamas to kind of digest the Pete Hegseths and people like that within the, within the upper echelon.

[A]

Well, the anti vaxx movement traditionally is very religious. In 1795 when Edward Jenner was doing his cowpox variolations like the people protesting him were specific to. You cannot play God with this.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And that really persisted throughout the history, history of the anti vaxx movement up until Andrew Wakefield. And they really tried to make it sciency at that point but the reality is they're still, there's still a metaphysical aspect to a lot of the anti vax and we're seeing that with like Mickey Willis regularly talking about Christianity and God. JP Sears, like a lot of the anti vaxxers relate what's happening to their Christianity in some way. So it never really left. They never really shed the vaccine sheds. But the anti vaxxers haven't shed their religious thinking.

[C]

Well, they haven't shed it, but they come back around to it I suppose.

[A]

Right.

[C]

It's like it becomes more effective at a certain point and I suppose what do they get tired of arguing over the science and so it's easier to default to the metaphysics or something? I don't know.

[A]

I think they have to keep appeasing the coalition. I mean I think that they, they might actually feel that. But if you watch as we've tracked for years, some of them move into Christianity it just their base is going to be there, they're going to get more support which means more clicks and more downstream Monet at some point for the fucking fierce immunity pills that they're selling.

[C]

It's also easier content wise. Right? Yeah, like it's just easier to, to, to spew, you know, pseudo religious, you know, Catholic or trad cath dogma than it is to continually make up do the effort required by pseudoscience which you know, you have to make credible in some way.

[B]

Yeah. If conspiracy theories are easier than pseudoscience made to look like science, then metaphysics is even easier than conspiracy theories I.

[C]

Think so I think it could be.

[B]

Yeah. And, and, and you kind of maga mamas were very politically conservative and very caught up in, in the moral panics around protecting our kids. Right, right. And I think to, to hold together this coalition that came in under RFK junior and under being Maha mamas, you need something a little bit less hardcore right wing political and a little bit more metaphysical. Appeals to, you know, the crunchy granola, blood and soil. Right.

[C]

Well, I also think that if, as we know, the crunchy demographic that is, you know, sort of centered, you know, infrastructure wise on yoga studios and wellness clinics and health food stores like that, I don't think there's enough social infrastructure there to really sort of give mahamamas over time what they need. And maybe churches become more sort of attractive because of that. You know, there's, you know, oh, people actually do things in these places. There's like regular organizational times. It's not just transactional. We can actually meet in this building and there's something that we're supposed to do and it's not just like, sign up for the next workshop.

[B]

Yeah, totally.

[A]

I don't think that people sometimes, or that maybe I should better say they underestimate the power of those spaces. I remember going to Rick Warren's church when I lived in la, just to check it out. And the campus, it has a childcare center, it has a coffee shop, multiple classrooms. And when you're talking about living in, in such as so many people do in this fr. Fragmented online culture, creating those spaces that people can congregate and gather and kind of wink, wink and you know, can feel comfortable in, that currency is tremendous.

[C]

Well, exactly. And I'd like to say too, about the social service support of churches large and small is that they will provide what the sort of neoliberal wellness economy will not. Right. It's, it's the childcare and the, you know, community dinners and the community outreach stuff that is just not part of what the infrastructure of wellness offers.

[A]

Well, they'll provide it, but it's gonna cost thousands of dollars, right?

[C]

Yeah. So in a way it's like they can have their MLM downline stuff in one part of their lives, but if they also have this opportunity to sort of land on two feet and touch grass in what feels like a more traditional and grounded community, I think that's probably really good for them.

[B]

Yeah. And Rick Warren really positioned himself brilliantly with regard to this particular demographic because it was all about what the purpose driven life. Right. It was all about like being intentional and having a sense of meaning and community. And it like overlapped very nicely with the workshop circuit that they were more used to. But actually, as, as you're both saying, provided perhaps more support, more resources. Yeah, right. Yeah, more of a sense of community that wasn't just marketing shtick. So the origins of Nazism are really interesting too. I did a bonus episode about this because they were actually influenced very strongly by the original New Age syncretist Helena Blavatsky, who created Theosophy. These early movements like Arianism and Ariosophy, which predate Nazism, were always more aligned with pagan occult, Germanic legends, blood and soil, return to nature, and rejection of Christianity altogether as being an imposition of the Jews. The swastika we know is drawn from Sanskrit sources and the symbol for the SS created by Heim, like Heinrich Himmler, I believe was meant to give ancient vibes like these are ruins. Some historians believe that the longer term plan was actually to eliminate Christianity altogether as the Third Reich ascended to its true glorious vision.

[C]

I miss this part about Christianity being the imposition of the Jews. How do they, how do they understand that it was that somehow because it emerged out of Judaism that the Jews, Jews forced it on? That's very interesting. Yeah.

[B]

This is, this is Judaism 2.0. And it doesn't come from our glorious heritage.

[C]

Right, yeah. And I think in the shifts that we see here from any kind of like socially coherent religious practice to, you know, the occult and, you know, reading runes and stuff like that is what you mainly eliminate is a sense of like communal responsibility or perhaps shared ethics. Right. It's really about how you're going to investigate your own soul or read your own tarot cards or like figure out your own chakras or something like that.

[B]

How are you going to tap into a very kind of primordial sense of power?

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And so that Christianity is not good for that. Ultimately, I think what I'm getting from this, Julian, is that like, so power uses religion as opportunistically as it can. I mean, I'm thinking about the Kirk funeral that, you know, we see this huge display of Christianity as this throbbing nerve in American fascism and any can just stroke it in the right way and that will be political gold. And you know, in parallel to ice provoking violent street reactions, the DHS Twitter feed, I don't know if you guys saw this, but they're pumping out Charlie Kirk style religious frameworks for violence. So they've been doing a lot of that. But just a couple of examples are, you know that in one post back in July, they posted this intimidation porn montage of agents they were gearing up in their loadout and they're going on assault with Proverbs 28:1 overlaid on the screen, the wicked Flee when no man pursueth, but the righteous are as bold as a lion. And then there's this other one where there's a montage shot at night, same kind of thing. They're gearing up, they're going on assault. And Christian rocker Zach Bryan is in the background singing all night. Revival is the backing track, so they will use anything. But as for any actual commitment to, to, I don't know, principles or morality or something like that, that's gotta be put into the background.

[B]

Yeah, this kind of extremist evangelical vibe is something that we definitely did not have back in the, in the early days of fascism. And it's, it's another element, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

The Nazi Catholic alliance became strained over time because Pope Pius XI eventually published a famous encyclical in 1937 titled Mid Brenin de Sorgency, which means with burning concern. And that document condemned the Nazis myth of race and blood, their racial and nationalist idolatry. Those are both quotes. It also warned against neo paganism and emphasized the importance of the Old Testament. You can't just do away with the Old Testament in your new kind of Reich Church. And they criticized breaches of that 1933, a treaty that Hitler had signed with them. Mid Brennan de Sorge was written in Germany German instead of the usual Latin, and then smuggled into the country to be read from Catholic pulpits. This led the next day to crackdowns, arrests and the banning of Catholic publications. But meanwhile in America throughout this period, the hugely influential pro Nazi, anti Semite Mussolini admiring Catholic priest Charles Coughlin was broadcasting fascist propaganda to approximately 30 million listeners, which at that time represented a staggering 25% of the American population.

[C]

Yeah. In previous coverage I tagged him as the template for Bishop Strickland today, the Qanon Pope who's kind of faded out of the limelight, but I'm sure he'll be rearing back at a certain point. But like Coughlin, he became as popular with right wing Protestants as he was with Catholics, actually.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Analysis of Coughlin's broadcast revealed that he. His actual mentions of anything to do with religion were, were very low, very low compared to his political agitation.

[C]

But he had great robes, man.

[B]

Now similar to Italy and Germany, Franco's regime in Spain formed an alliance with the Vatican signing a concordat. I'm mispronouncing that concordat. Never said that word out loud. In 1953, the Vatican seems to have been willing to legitimize the Spanish dictatorship under the rubric of what they called National Catholicism for most of its 36 year exist. And then this broke down somewhat after the liberalizing mood of Vatican II and had deteriorated significantly by the time of Franco's death in 1979. In all of this, I would argue that the similarities between religious and political authoritarianism can make them either compatible bedfellows or combative rivals. But in general, more traditionalist nationalist reactions against the internationalism of revolutionary movements make for a better fit with these far right nationalist regimes. Left wing revolutionaries usually seek to break down old power structures, including traditional religion. And the notable exception here, especially in Latin America, has been liberation theology's synthesis of the social gospel and support for Marxist revolution. Though this fragile synthesis has in the past been under siege from both Marxist and Catholic sides.

[C]

Yeah, I wouldn't say siege so much as like an endless unresolvable argument about the primacy of materialism or idealism, like Marxists, or argue over the insistence on materialism. And by the book, Catholics will argue that we are more than our material conditions. So that's in my segment coming out up and actually one of the Jesuits who's at the prominent, prominent at the ICE protests in Chicago really demonstrates that unending argument in, in a very embodied way.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, there is that unending argument sort of underneath all of this. I was thinking too of the clergy who supported revolutionary efforts in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Cuba, and then they often were being disapproved of by the Vatican. And then after the revolution found themselves on the wrong side of the new communist regime.

[C]

Right, right. Yeah. I mean, very complex unfolding history in that. Yeah. I would say that the core typological difference is that the Nash in the history that you're, you're covering here is that the nationalist Christian movements that are supportive of fascism, they retain the function of the older colonial church in authorizing power and having to make up conspiracy theories about outsiders and their spiritual value. Right. Like we don't really see the opposite thing emerge. The internationalist church emerge until still ironically, those colonized Christians in Latin America and the descendants of enslaved people in the US take on the influence of decolonial politics and then bring that back to the imperial core and its churches starting in the 1920s and 30s. And that drive is about the Christianity of restoring equality and dignity. It's not about the fascist sort of palingenetic, you know, reinvigoration or resurrection of the nation. And so it doesn't rely on conspiracism or blood and soil tropes. And I think, think this division might also be predictive of how violence against clergy from regime to regime plays out in terms of political alliances like communists will attack and sometimes kill clergy that they view as monarchical or fascist collaborators, and fascists will attack and sometimes kill clergy that they view as in league with revolutionaries or capable of rallying the moral resistance of common people.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's important all of that sounds right, maybe, maybe to to not downplay the general persecution of religion after communist revolutions. Because I think it, it tends to be pretty complete, and it's driven more by first principles than a kind of on the ground assessment of who are the collaborators and who are not the collaborators. Right. Everyone gets swept up in in in the.

[E]

This episode is brought to you by Rakuten. If you're shopping while working, eating, or even listening to this podcast, then you know and love the thrill of a deal. But are you getting the deal and cash back? Rakuten shoppers, do they get the brands they love savings and cash back. And you can get it too. Stack sales on top of cash back and feel what it's like to know you're maximizing savings. It's easy to use and you get cash back sent to you through PayPal or check. The idea is simple. The brands you love pay Rakuten for sending them shoppers, and Rakuten shares the money with you as cash back. Download the free Rakuten app or go to rakuten.com to start saving today. It's the most rewarding way to shop. That's R A K U t e n rakuten.com.

[F]

If you're obsessed with true crime, cults or conspiracy theories, I've got the perfect show for the you Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes is a new weekly podcast from Crime House and Pave Studios that dives into the darkest corners of human behavior. Every Wednesday, we uncover the true stories behind the world's most shocking crimes, deadly ideologies and secret plots. From mass suicides and political assassinations to secret government experiments and UFO cults, you'll hear about infamous cases like Jonestown and jfk, as well as hidden horrors like the Octopus Murders and Starvation Heights. But remember, these aren't just stories. These are real people, real events, and very real consequences. So if you love mystery, madness, and diving deep into the world's most unbelievable true stories, you won't want to miss this. Follow Conspiracy Theories, Culture and Crimes now. Wherever you get your podcasts and for ad free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts.

[C]

Okay, so we Got clerics on the protest lines in Chicago, in Portland, in a bunch of other places. What are they bringing to the table? Like, what's the content? What's the rationale? Most of them are framing their protests through biblical commandments to welcome the stranger, protect the vulnerable, and to love one's neighbor. There was a chant in Chicago that they started up, love your neighbor, love your God, save your soul, and quit your jobs, which I thought was pretty snappy. And aside from the on the ground protests, churches are also bringing lawsuits invoking first and Fourth Amendments. The Fourth Amendment is about unreasonable search and seizure, I think. And they're also bringing lawsuits based on the Religious Freedom Restoration act, because if ICE targets clergy and faith led demonstrations, the plaintiffs say that constitutes religious discrimination. And so it's very interesting because I think David Black, who, you know, is famous for now being shot in the head with a pepper ball, has readily at his disposal a bunch of people who can send him right to court almost immediately after this happens. And I think that's one of these sort of organizational strengths that we're talking about when we look at clergy.

[A]

I've heard commentators on the history of the Constitution recently talk about how people usually perceive that the First Amendment was written to protect the government from religion, but in reality, it was probably more written to protect religion from the government.

[C]

Right, yeah, yeah, I'd like to learn more about that. I don't know the history there. So in D.C. you know, one of the big things is that Black and mainline Protestant churches are demanding that federal immigration authorities stop using church parking lots for enforcement activities, which is totally gross. So they say that ICE is violating religious sanctuary provisions and provoking community members by showing up on Sunday morning and waiting outside to, like, round people up, which is just so incredible. I mean, I don't know whether that's worse that or probably hospitals are worse. But back in June, there's also a response to the arrest of union leader David Huerta at an ICE operation in LA at which multiple local clergy joined protests and demanded accountability from ice. They advocated for detainees. They attempted to de escalate tensions by holding hands and singing hymns in front of enforcement lines. But the most dramatic attack that we've pinged a few times now has been in Chicago. So this is David Black of First Presbyterian in Woodlawn leading a prayer vigil outside the Broadview ICE facility on September 25th. And, you know, there's video circulating of him calling up to a trio of armed ICE agents on the roof of the building. He's got his arms raised. He, you know, he looks like he's giving a shout of praise or something like that, or a welcome greeting. It's a very church posture. And then he turns away because I think they're laughing at him. And one of the agents shoots him on the top of the head with a pepper ball. Now, I don't know if you guys have played paintball, but basically that's what that is. It's 68 caliber, but it's filled with pepper. It goes at a speed of about 350ft per second. 500ft per second is firearms speed. But then the pepper, like, disperses over, like, 12ft or something like that. And of course, it's like a chemical irritant. So along with other clergy and journalists, Black is one of these guys who's a plaintiff in one of these federal lawsuits. The suit is very Christian and forgiving in that it doesn't specify monetary damages. It's just really seeking an injunction against all ICE policing tactics. Then we have Reverend Hannah Carden from Chicago's United Methodist and the Reverend Quincy Worthington Presbyterian, his churches in the suburbs of Chicago. And they describe being hit by pepper balls while praying and advocating for detained immigrants as well at the ICE facilities. Cardin was targeted while wearing clerical attire and praying aloud for both detainees and ICE agents. I guess they didn't hear her. Worthington specifically called out the DHS scripture posts on Twitter as an affront to the gospel. And he talked about reading Dietrich Bonhoeffer to help cope with the violence seen at protests. I just posted a few episodes about Bonhoeffer recently, so you can check those out. And then we have from another denomination, progressive evangelical, which I'm still trying to learn more about. This guy named Pastor Doug Padgett. He was the guy in that God and Country documentary that aired before the election, if you remember about, you know, the white Christian nationalists who had broken rank with their fellow religionists, and they're trying to warn us all about the threats of Christian nationalism. He was the guy in the blue straw pork pie hat.

[A]

Hat.

[C]

He's very distinctive. Look, no collar on him. Padet runs Vote Common Good, which is a think tank for broadcasting evangelical arguments for progressive policies. So this is from their mission statement. They write, we are dedicated to flipping the script the way we do politics in America. Flipping the script means changing the narrative with un that has undergirded white evangelical and Catholic reflexive support for Republicans who have put other priorities over the common good for. For a variety of reasons. So Padgett and his group have launched a rapid response strategy to shield worshipers during ICE raids. So basically they've created an how to manual for clerics around the country. If you know, they're trying to protect their congregations coming to church. So they've been distributing these materials. And the Bulwark reported that there were 5,000 churches on the mailing list. But I wasn't able to able to verify that. But because it sounded like a high number to me, I then looked up how many churches there are estimated to BE in the U.S. derek, you said there were 796 in Portland alone. Do you want to guess, guys, how many in the country altogether?

[A]

Well, okay, so how many gallons of water fit in the World Trade Center? Famous interview question. You know, there's almost 5,000 denominations of Christianity that are accepted in the US or around the world actually, but each one would have more than a church. So I would say 100,000.

[C]

It's 350 to 400,000 churches in the U.S. that's one church for every thousand human beings.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

So if you want to talk about an organizing force that's, I mean, they're going to be all over the map politically.

[B]

They can all get over their ecumenical differences.

[C]

Which brings us to the Catholics. Multiple bishops and diocesan leaders have publicly condemned the raids. They've issued statements of solidarity with immigrants. They've instituted practical and pastoral responses to support their their congregations. The tone was set back in June with a statement from Bishop Alberto Royas of the Diocese of San Bernardino. This is the sixth largest Catholic diocese in the entire country. Quote, authorities are now seizing brothers and sisters indiscriminately without respect for their right to due process and their dignity as children of God. He added that the clerics were with the detained in carrying the cross. Other bishops have given dispensation for people to not show up at Mass on Sunday. And by the way, that's a big deal because that's a required sacrament. If you get a dispensation from, you know, attending Mass, it's usually because you are bedridden. You are the only caregiver for somebody who is bedridden. But basically this means that if you want to, you know, maintain your kind of sacramental relationship with the church, somebody has to go to your house, house and deliver communion to you. So that's actually, it sounds like, oh, you don't have to come. It sounds like a common sense thing, but it actually has a lot of implications. Now this access to the Eucharist or Communion was the focal point of a Recent protest at the Broadview ICE facility in Chicago when about 200 folks showed up to support priests requesting to deliver communion to detainees. And Illinois state troopers turned them back. And we've got a clip here.

[A]

And let me be clear, and woe.

[B]

To me if I do not say it, the detention of migrants is evil and the deportation of migrants is evil. This evil is unacceptable in the eyes.

[D]

Of our loving God.

[B]

Detention and deportation are acts that wound.

[C]

The body of Christ and deny the.

[B]

Dignity of God's people.

[C]

Okay, so that is David in Zosches. He is a priest, He's a Jesuit. He's standing in front of an altar table that has a big monstrance on it. So this is the, the sort of gold trophy like object that has a little window in it and then it looks like a sun. And in window they have the wafer that is actually the consecrated host. And when I was saying earlier, Julian, that like, there's this conflict between the material and the ideal. Here's this guy who's like a big proponent of liberation theology, who is probably going to try to carry one of the most sort of magicky looking things in, you know, the Catholic sort of, you know, culture into a jail. And I think it's this perfect symbol of the conflict between, or at least the tension between these, these, these two.

[F]

Yeah.

[B]

And how he's actually, actually navigating this.

[C]

He's doing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a Jesuit, as I said, like Pope Leo. He spent a lot of his early years ultimately radicalizing years in South America, Honduras specifically. So he talks about taking trips into the deep mountains to visit parishes in villages where U.S. owned mining companies are hollowing out like burial sites and then dumping cyanide into rivers after they're using it to spray down rocks to try to extract the gold from it. So rain. Real Avatar stuff. He gets radicalized during the time. And he's the leading Catholic, I would say liberation theology scholar, influencer at this point in America. He's got a podcast, he's got a social media presence. Now, if we zoom out farther In Rome, on September 25, Leo releases his first exhortation. It's called Di lexe Te. Now, I'm not quite sure what an exhortation is. I forgot to look it up. But like, it's different from an encyclical, a letter. It's a statement of sort of intent for the world, I think, or this is what I would like people to reflect on. But dilexite means I have loved you and it's on the subject of loving the poor. And it's a document that's going to be read by probably most of the 400,000 plus priests around the world. And it was started but left unfinished by Francis. Like it was literally half done on his desk when the guy died. And in it, Leo hits at the Trump administration as directly as any pope would be likely to do. And it's very interesting because there's all been all this discussion about like, oh, is he going to be a Francis stream pope? And I think he basically picked up this letter, this, this diary entry and just completed it, sort of whole cloth. And I found it quite stirring because it collates all of these scriptures verses on serving the poor, going right back to Jesus's own unhoused status. You know, foxes have holes, birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head. And Leo writes, our response to the challenges posed by contemporary migration can be summed up in four verbs. Welcome, protect, promote, and integrate. But I think the most important aspect and maybe surprising aspect of the document is that how half of it relies heavily on liberation theology. It's out in the open. It's just cited.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

The next brief I'm working on is actually about how for 40 years the CIA has actively tried to undermine liberation theology in Central and South America by boosting evangelical missions that focus on the prosperity gospel and sex panic stuff and individual bootstraps theology. And I started that because I was wondering, why are there so many evangelicals in Brazil, being a Catholic country originally? Why are they all supporting Bolsonaro? There's an answer for that, or at least a partial answer. Now, with Francis being from Argentina and Leo spending decades in Peru, liberation theology was really the water that they swam in. And you can hear it with, you know, just burning in. Leo writing that the church must continue to, quote, denounce the dictatorship of an economy that kills and to recognize that while the earnings of the minority are growing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity and jo by the happy few. This imbalance is the result of ideologies that defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states charged with vigilance for the common good to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is being born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules.

[B]

So Leo's an anti capitalist. We just got it.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, pretty fire writing there. And also very, very, very, very clear. And I Wonder, too, whether it reads so well because he's writing in English. I mean, he's a polyglot, but, like, pretty, pretty, pretty good prose there. So this is coming from the Vatican today, 2025. And I think it's just an example of how radical a change we have is that in the 1960s, 60s, Catholic radicals like the Berrigan brothers, Daniel was the priest, also a Jesuit. You know, there were lots of people like them who engaged with acts of direct action and anti war resistance. So the Berrigans were part of the Catonsville Nine, and they used to break into government offices and steal draft documentation and then burn it. And then after they were convicted, you know, they violated the standards of civil disobedience by running. They'd say, went on the Lamb and that, you know, civil disobedience, you're supposed to accept the punishment. But they were like, no, we're not going to do that. So the FBI had Daniel Berrigan on their most wanted list for a while, and they eventually caught him, and he served two years in prison. And then part of his protest, of course, was against his own church because of their silence and their apathy in relation to Vietnam. So he was not favored from above while he was in prison. There is no record of any Jesuit visiting him or advocating for him legally, if you can imagine that. Like, he grows up in the Society of Jesus, he goes to jail because he protests the Vietnam War, and nobody from school comes and visits him in prison. That's how sort of marginalized he is within his own church.

[B]

Brave guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I would say that David and Zoskas is in some ways more ideologically radical than Daniel Berrigan. I haven't read all of Berrigan's works, but I don't think he's quoting so directly or sort of pushing the content of liberation theology out over the Internet, certainly. I mean, he wasn't back then anyway. But I don't think he's as radical as Inzoska's his. And there he is standing in his vestments, facing off against ice. And at this point, at least, Rome is standing behind him. And I think the litmus test for how the world, world's, you know, 1.8 billion Catholics are going to orient themselves in relation to Trump will be to see how tacit or explicit that support for Inaugus is, if that support holds at all. And we don't know.