283: Guys

Summary

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Conspirituality Podcast

Episode 283: Guys

Air Date: November 13, 2025
Hosts: Derek Beres, Matthew Remski, Julian Walker

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Overview

This episode explores the crisis of masculinity, the political polarization of young men in the US, and how both reactionary and progressive figures are attempting to define (and sometimes weaponize) what it means to be "a man" in contemporary American culture. The hosts dissect the failures of mainstream political approaches, critique attempts to manufacture a “Joe Rogan of the left,” and analyze recent case studies, including politicians Zoran Mamdani and Graham Platner, contrasting them with public intellectuals like Scott Galloway. Issues of authenticity, performance, and shifting electoral attitudes among young men are recurring themes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Masculinity Crisis and Political Strategy

• Backdrop: Recent large gender gaps in voting, with young men shifting right and young women left, have generated Democratic soul-searching and led to consultant-driven projects to "win back" men (see the $20M “Speaking with American Men” initiative).

  • Derek: “Men feel increasingly lonely and aggrieved with few career and relationship prospects. This makes them sitting ducks for online propaganda…” (04:25)
  • Matthew: “Competing for a Joe Rogan of the left…is kind of thinking like a fascist thinks.” (06:09)
  • Julian: Critiques the search for a leftist Joe Rogan as misguided, but acknowledges the value of spaces where men feel seen without being overtly political. (07:18)

• Authenticity & Parasocial Relationships: Parasocial attachment to “bro podcasters” and influencers is strong, especially with figures who present as “just asking questions” in unfiltered ways.

  • Julian: “The parasocial relationships that are developed in those spaces for men...that is largely appealing to a population.” (07:18)

• Consultant Approaches Critiqued: Efforts to manufacture authenticity, and target men through “non-traditional digital areas like video games,” are considered naïve or even counterproductive.

  • Matthew: “This is not a space about authenticity. It is anonymous. It’s transgressive. It's irony pilled...you can’t micromanage it.” (11:58)

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2. Authenticity, Masculinity, and the “Manosphere”

• Conflicting Definitions of Authenticity: The group digs into how “authenticity” is coded—being shamelessly transgressive can be read by some as authentic, but that doesn’t mean it has any moral content.

  • Matthew: “I don't see the purely transgressive as authentic...authenticity itself is something that has to be performed.” (13:37)
  • Julian: “Authenticity doesn't have to have a moral component...for a lot of men who fall into these spaces, that is authentic to them.” (14:31)
  • Derek: “In the pre-Trump era...I like that guy because he says what everyone else is thinking...it's that definition of authenticity.” (15:07)

• Perception Gaps: Democrats seen as “fake and scripted,” while Republicans are “supposedly warts and all honest.” There’s a mistaken conflation of professionalism with dishonesty, and narcissism with authenticity.

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3. Political Case Studies: Mamdani & Platner

Zoran Mamdani

• Background: Child of prominent academic parents (postcolonial studies and film), major social media presence, humorous and self-deprecating.

• Qualities: Humor, humility, multi-lingual outreach, comfort with his own shortcomings, and openness about learning and mistakes.

  • Julian: “He uses social media extremely well...honest humility...another strong masculine quality.” (35:17)
  • Derek: “He’s quick to smile...He smiles with his eyes, his whole face...quick, observant intelligence Obama had.” (33:42)

• Policy Focus: Affordability, labor, care work, inclusivity. Uplifts unseen laborers, immigrant communities; not about performative masculinity.

  • Matthew: “He is not putting himself into some kind of commanding, patriarchal alpha position. He’s always citing his sources.” (41:38)
  • Memorable Speech: “Fingers bruised from lifting boxes…these are not hands that have been allowed to hold power. And yet over the past 12 months, you have dared to reach for something greater...Yemeni bodega owners…Mexican abuelas...Senegalese taxi drivers...” (43:00)

• Masculinity Modeled Differently: “Perhaps the most masculine trait to me...is that he’s unapologetically himself...He just seems comfortable in his skin.” (39:36, Julian)

• Strategic Self-Deprecation: “When the right came at him for eating rice with his hands, he posted more photos of himself eating rice with his hands.” (39:36, Julian)

• Potential Vulnerabilities: Elite/“diaspora” background makes him an easy scapegoat for right-wing media.

  • Derek: “All qualities...that are incredibly easy for right wing propagandists to frame as elite, subversive...I also bite my nails…” (50:01)

Graham Platner

• Background: Ex-Marine, oyster farmer, blue-collar toughness, complicated military history, former “tanky” socialist poster, publicly confronted own problematic Reddit past.
• Qualities: Embodies a “testosterone mountain” type, more traditional masculine presentation, but pushes populist and socialist platforms.
• Controversies:
  • Questionable apology about Nazi-affiliated tattoo (“I had no idea what it meant”) found implausible by hosts.
    • Matthew: “He claims he got it...had no idea what it meant...a lot of folks, including me, found this impossible to believe…” (59:26)
  • Past racist/sexist Reddit commentary, addressed publicly and apologized, claims to have matured.
• Theme of Forgiveness: Platner and Mamdani both faced scrutiny over past statements; how they handle and move beyond them is seen as indicative of authenticity and potential for growth.
  • Julian: “Both made amends of sorts with [past statements]...seem to be forgiven by their constituents.” (58:11)
• Authenticity Questioned: “Is this person true to their word? Are they dependable? Will they turn on you, betray you?” (61:48, Matthew)
• Electoral Calculus: Platner can play to economic populist sentiment in rural areas; Mamdani’s style less exportable to Midwest “heartland.”

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4. The Limits of Progressive “Bro” Messaging

• Scott Galloway (“Notes on Being a Man”):
  • Promoted as a liberal Jordan Peterson, but advances a protect-provide-procreate model that is strikingly traditional.
    • Matthew: “His thesis is boys and men are suffering because they have forgotten their essential roles and responsibilities. To be a man...you must protect, provide, and procreate.” (25:08)
  • Book is “thin on policy, big on vibes.” In media tour, claims to support things like universal childcare, but book doesn’t mention it.
  • Critique: Mainstream is eager to repackage this as “feminist adjacent,” but it is fundamentally reactionary and inattentive to actual feminist analysis. (25:25, 27:27)

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5. What Women Actually Find Attractive (vs. What Men Think)

• Julian: “Men often think they’re doing things that are attractive to women and really they’re just making themselves more attractive to other men, which...makes for a lot of strife and leads to a lot of miscommunication...” (30:43)
• Zoran as Counterexample: Funniness, warmth, humility, comfort with his own ignorance or failings, willingness to learn from (female) mentors are seen as novel—and more genuinely attractive.

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6. Masculinity, Betrayal, and Trust

• The Trap of Authoritarian Masculinity: American political culture is haunted by the “ambivalent father”—the patriarch who promises to protect but often betrays or abuses. Both Mamdani and Platner invert this, offering support and care rather than authoritarian protection.
  • Matthew: “I personally can’t help but to imagine that something really, really old is being worked out with this...the dominant monotheisms at play...an eternally ambivalent father…This is the God you can never quite trust until you reinvent him by rewriting the old stories.” (69:03)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Left’s Search for a Bro Voice:
  Matthew: “The workflow from ‘men are aggrieved’ to ‘where is the Joe Rogan of the left?’…it seems useless to me if the desire is to head off fascism.” (06:09)

• On Performance of Authenticity:
  Julian: “Authenticity doesn’t have to have a moral component to it. And for a lot of men who fall into these spaces, that is authentic to them.” (14:31)

• On Humor and Relatability:
  Julian: “Of all the conversations I’ve had with people close to me, they find Zoran wildly attractive…more of a man than most any other political figure they’ve seen.” (30:43)
  Derek: “He’s quick to smile…his default setting is to tap into the kinds of warmth and empathy that are necessary for spontaneous humor.” (33:42)

• On Mamdani’s Speech:
  Matthew (quoting Mamdani): “Thank you to those who often are forgotten…Yemeni bodega owners and Mexican abuelas, Senegalese taxi drivers and Uzbek nurses, Trinidadian line cooks and Ethiopian aunties.” (44:16)

• On Policy vs. Branding:
  Matthew (on Galloway): “The book is big on vibes because it’s kind of thin on policy…Not a lot. The balance is kind of like this is how you excel at capitalism, young man.” (25:25)
  Matthew: “He is not a leader, but he is a talker.” (27:27)

• On Past Mistakes and Forgiveness:
  Julian: “Both made amends of sorts…without losing the underlying populism. And both seem to be forgiven by their constituents.” (58:11)

• On Masculinity and Betrayal:
  Matthew: “Is this person true to their word? Are they dependable? Will they turn on you, betray you? Is their support for you conditional or not? I think it’s an anxiety that’s a natural outcome of the patriarchal promise…” (61:48)

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Key Timestamps

• 04:25 – Gender gaps in 2024 election results; the “manosphere” and bro podcasters.
• 07:18 – Rogan-style podcasts; the value of informal male spaces.
• 11:58 – Authenticity: irony, transgression, and the online meme world.
• 20:29 – Masculinity in gym/fitness culture; what is "normal."
• 25:08 – Scott Galloway’s “Notes on Being a Man” and critique.
• 30:43 – What women find attractive vs. men’s perceptions.
• 35:17 – Zoran Mamdani’s humor, humility, and policy-driven masculinity.
• 43:00 – Mamdani’s inclusive speech.
• 50:01 – The risk of right-wing attacks on “elite” masculinity.
• 54:07 – Graham Platner’s campaign, aesthetic, and controversies.
• 61:48 – The anxiety around trust and betrayal in masculine archetypes.
• 69:03 – Reflections on the “ambivalent patriarchal father” in political/spiritual culture.

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Conclusion & Takeaways

The episode ultimately argues for broadening the definitions of masculinity in public life, away from reactionary models and shallow performative “authenticity.” Figures like Mamdani illustrate a new path by privileging care, inclusivity, humility, and genuine self-acceptance—all while demonstrating policy acumen and political bravery. Forgiveness, growth, and accountability for past missteps are crucial, but so too are trust and the willingness to resist easy stereotypes. The battle for young men’s hearts and minds cannot be won by simplistic imitation of right-wing influencer culture, but by meeting real needs and embodying alternative models of what it is to be a man.

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Transcript

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[Derek Barris]

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[Julian Walker]

Hey everyone. Welcome to Conspirituality where we investigate the intersections of conspiracy theories and spiritual influence to uncover cults, pseudoscience and authoritarian extremism. I'm Derek Barris.

[Matthew Remsky]

I'm Matthew Remsky.

[Derek Barris]

I'm Julian Walker.

[Julian Walker]

You can find us on Instagram and threads at Conspirituality Pod. We are also all individually over on Blue sky and you can access all of our episodes ad free, plus our Monday bonus episodes on [e-mail] conspirituality you can also grab our Monday bonus episodes via Apple subscriptions if that is easier for you. And we are independent media creators and put a lot of time and effort into these episodes. So if you have the ability to support us, we really appreciate it.

[Matthew Remsky]

Episode 283 Guys, actually, how should I say that? Guys? Is it guys? Guys? Is that right?

[Derek Barris]

I think the second one.

[Matthew Remsky]

All right, okay, that's fine. Back in June, we published an episode called Dems Ask what is a Man? And this was about the Speaking with American men project, a $20 million initiative designed by political consultants to understand and win back young men aged 18 to 29 who increasingly voted for Donald Trump. We talked about this cringy, inauthentic approach to compete over the influence of manosphere figures like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Huberman who exploit a perceived meaning crisis with pseudo intellectual and often reactionary messages. Instead of what we said that the better route would be to focus on material concerns so that the rage of young men isn't ceded to right wing movements. Big money consultant led efforts to micromanage online interactions aren't going to spawn in the authentic cultural engagement that right wing influencers naturally achieve. Well, here we are now in the fall and we've got a bunch of guys stepping into this contested space from different angles. Zoran Mamdani and Graham Platner present very differently as masculine role models, but share the same economic populism and also the same deep challenge in the long shadow of patriarchy. How do men become trustworthy?

[Derek Barris]

The big political media story in the aftermath of Kamala Harris crushing 2024 defeat centered on men, especially young men. How did the Democratic Party lose so much support among men? And how do they win it back? With an overall gender gap having grown such that 13% more women than men voted for Harris and Walls among Gen Z, it was even worse news for Dems. According to Tufts Circle research, young women favored Harris by 17 points, while young men went for Trump by 14 points. That's a 31% split. Many commentators attribute this to the effects of social media, especially the manosphere, and the influence of bro podcasters. They point to data saying that men feel increasingly lonely and aggrieved with few career and relationship prospects. This makes them sitting ducks. So the story goes for online propaganda that is anti feminist, anti woke and encourages embracing hyper masculine workout and self optimization culture that leans toward both pseudoscience beliefs and reactionary politics. Within that sphere, comedians, MMA fighters and contrarian influencers churn out hours of content every week, just asking questions in uneducated ways about UFOs, recycled conspiracy theories, toxic feminism, vaccines, race and IQ. And if Hitler was really the bad guy after all. At the same time, they're cutting promos for workout supplements, BS wellness products, or online courses and books on self mastery and stoicism, leading many then to cry out from the democratic sphere. But where, oh, where is the Joe Rogan of the left?

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, and I, I just want to flag up top that this workflow from, you know, data says that men feel increasingly lonely and aggrieved with few career and relationship prospects, which is undoubtedly out there. To where is the Joe Rogan of the left? Kind of. It seems useless to me if the desire to. Is to head off fascism. I mean, the framework is who can we get to capture, represent, and motivate all this grievance? And I mean, that's kind of thinking like a fascist thinks as opposed to, like, how do we rectify these grievances?

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, it's such a tricky one because right wingers and Christian nationalists do have ideas. They do have some solutions for these grievances, whether, you know, perceived or real. And all those answers are terrible.

[Julian Walker]

I'll add that heading off fascism is certainly important, especially to us in a portion of the population, but it's not like that's something broadly discussed in these spaces. So the framework is a lot larger than that.

[Matthew Remsky]

Well, but what spaces are we talking about? Because, I mean, generally we have Rachel Maddow and Heather Cox Richardson talking about fascism every day to millions. Like, what's the broader framework that you're talking about when we're talking about the Joe Rogan of the left?

[Julian Walker]

Well, I never wanted a Joe Rogan of the left. I think that's not even a good construction, personally. But yeah, there's a great piece of, of reporting in the New York times from the 10th on. Zoran Mandani was going to go on Rogan, but scheduling conflicts happened. But in that piece, Mamdani was hung out with Hassan Piker one day, and Piker said something that they quoted that I thought was instructive, that Zaran's just a dude. It's good to just be a dude sometimes. So you have Matt on Richardson, who are amazing, and they're doing that work to their audience, but there is an entire other audience out there. And I think, you know, in, in retrospect, we're looking at rogan here in 2025. And of course, we all have a lot of criticisms, but as someone who formerly listened, the parasocial relationships that are developed in those spaces for men where you don't necessarily have an objective, you just go into a conversation and you're just shooting the shit with someone that is largely appealing to a population. So to me, a Joe Rogan on the left is going. Someone who isn't inherently misogynistic and doesn't get swayed by misinformation in the way that he does, but someone who still has left of center values and has conversations with people without the necessity of always having one framework to talk about, but is actually like Rogan used to be, which is very inviting and hey, just come in and let's have a conversation. I think we undervalue how that targets a certain population that we're discussing today.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, there's, there's a lot there. I mean, I think, Matthew, I understand that the cynicism about a Democratic Party initiative like this, I think I take just a slightly less cynical view. Like understanding and listening to the grievances can be a way to figure out how to help, but how to try to address those things and thereby win back support.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, I guess that really depends on the sort of connection between the consultancy program and the policymakers. Right. And whether they're going to talk to each other at all. Like, is Sam going to come back to Chuck Schumer and say, oh, this is what she should do? Because like I would love to hear, hear them talk to speak to American men about feelings unfolding on the shutdown or the leadership not endorsing Mamdani and you know, plans for abundance economics versus, you know, whatever else is on the table.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, I think that is the idea that they were trying to sell. I don't know where they're at with it now. Right. That they would there therefore have some input on policy platform. So this SAM project is spearheaded, as you mentioned, Matthew, by a longtime pro choice activist, president of naral, Elise Hogue, alongside public opinion researcher and political advisor John De La Volpe and former Democrat Texas Representative Colin Allred. And Sam, or speaking to American Men's initial focus groups, found that men aged 18 to 29 felt especially isolated and socially disconnected due to Covid and that they were beset by economic anxiety in a time when owning a home and saving for kids future college education, for example, just seems out of reach and that this was affecting their self image in terms of being able to live up to what it means to be a man. These young men said they felt ashamed and confused about conflicting cultural messages on masculinity. Democrats, said one participant, endorse sensitive and empathic fluid masculinity, while Republicans stand for strong traditional masculinity Democrats were described as overly scripted and cautious. And this may go too, to the idea of what would a Joe Rogan of the left be right? It's not going to be someone who is overtly preaching a political message that comes across for some reason as, as overly scripted, cautious, perhaps preachy. While Republicans were confident and unafraid to offend, figures like Andrew Tate and Donald Trump himself were seen to be both loved and and hated. But always authentic and truthful. Just a note, I'm not endorsing any of these perceptions myself. Always truthful about their unapologetic beliefs. Further, only 27% of those they talked to had favorable opinions of the Democratic Party. And so the takeaway, according to these consultants, was that Democrats should focus their advertising into more non traditional digital areas like video games and avoid a moralizing tone. More meeting men where they're at and acknowledging their struggles instead.

[Matthew Remsky]

It's so tricky. I mean, there's something about the reporting around authenticity that needs some scrutiny, I think, because within this core of the meme world at least, that helped drive Trump to power through shitposting and QAnon. You know, so Dale Barron's book on that is the best that we have. No one believed that Trump was authentic. Like, a lot of the Chans saw him as this hilarious loser but useful tool who would smash the normie world and make fools out of Facebook boomers while counteracting or counter attacking feminists. They didn't ignore the irony of saying Trump would drain the swamp. They actually lived for it. And then, you know, as for Tate, I've always seen a divide between those who think he's authentic and those who like, literally laugh out loud at the fact that he's a cartoon who says all the hateful things out loud on their behalf. And then part of the Democratic Party's answer is to enter the video game space. But like, with what? Like, this is not a space about authenticity. It is anonymous. It's transgressive. It's irony pilled. It runs on cosplay. It's got a zillion different elements to it. Like you can't micromanage it.

[Julian Walker]

I don't think that negates authenticity. I mean, a good amount of Trump and Tate supporters believe those men are being authentic. One of the most appealing qualities of either men to their audiences is that they are just themselves all the time. And I don't think any of us has the ability to engage with the sort of metacognition of online posters and their true beliefs because Anonymity obscures that from analysis.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, I think it's difficult to. I mean, I imagine we're, we're misunderstanding each other a little bit here. I think this is difficult because we're getting at the difference between being a true self or being authentic and having absolutely no shame about being socially transgressive. Like, I don't see the purely transgressive as authentic. And I also see that authenticity itself is something that has to be performed. And you know who true selves are subjective. So I can't really sort of get in under the COVID there. What I do spend time in Tate World on TikTok. I can tell you that there's a ton of comments that acknowledge that Tate is a circus clown in their eyes, albeit the clown who is doing their work. It's like he's their clown doing their work of mockery and humiliation. I think it's really, it's really difficult.

[Julian Walker]

Well, I mean, I don't think we're misunderstanding in the sense that. Because you kind of nailed it when you said you don't see the purely transgressive with authentic. That doesn't mean that other people don't. Right. Because there are just fucking assholes out there. There are a lot of guys who that is the shit. That is what they want to do and that's what they get off on. So that's where the sort of boundaries are stretched in terms of a definition here. Because authenticity doesn't have to have a moral component to it. And for a lot of men who fall into these spaces, that is authentic to them.

[Derek Barris]

In the pre Trump era, I can't tell you how many times I ran into just like everyday white dudes who in, in relation to some kind of transgressive speech would say, oh, well, I like that guy because he says what everyone else is thinking. And we're not supposed to say it because we're trying to be politically correct. Right. I think it's that definition of authenticity as opposed to something that we would get into around, you know, like psychology, self actualization, philosophical sort of interrogation.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, I think that's the problem. I. I can't really. The notion of. We're talking, if we, if we say authenticity, we're. We're talking about people recognizing a wholeness in a person. Right. Because what we're actually talking about is the willingness to be as reactive as possible. Right. In. In the dialectic of social media. Like, I'm not going to have any shame about saying whatever the fuck I want. And I'M not going to be held accountable for it. And that is going to feel like it's true and rich and muscular and vital. And so that's who I am. And I'm like, yeah, that's, that's not gonna work.

[Julian Walker]

But that's also. There are people, there are people like that in real life, though, and that's what I'm saying. I mean, I am, I am a gym rat my whole life and I've worked in gyms. Like that culture exists in real life. Like it is there in the locker, the whole locker room, boys speech. That shit is real and that is how guys act in the world itself. And also, being someone with a lot of close female friends who I've heard dating horror stories, that shit is just real. So that's where I kind of fall on the fact that I'm going to take them at their word.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, going back to the message board space, I mean, I don't know that, that this Sam project is necessarily talking to so much to guys who are, you know, on 4chan or what have you, because that's a little bit of a niche subset. And those trolls really delighted in the absurd power of memeing Trump into success, as Del Baran Describ described so beautifully. And it came from something awful. But I think the broader electorate who shifted from Obama to Trump do seem to have this perception that Democratic candidates are fake and scripted, which we might actually say, well, really they're professional and measured and cautious in how they speak, which is a good thing. Right. While Republican candidates are supposedly warts and all honest. So, yeah, perhaps they mistake narcissism and vitriol for authenticity. There's also the problem, though, that along with perceived class elitism, Democrats have this issue that a lot of the positions that they hold, especially on immigration and crime and LGBTQ issues that I think we've always assumed would bring along sort of all minority groups who feel marginalized as one, have actually ended up to the left of some of those minority groups that Democrats want to champion. So in 2024, even though Harris still won majorities amongst young male, black and Latino voters, Trump continued to make gains within those demographics. And overall, he won the majority of both non college educated and college educated Gen z voters in 2024, which I think a lot of people were not expecting. Between these shifting loyalties and attempts to gerrymander and suppress votes in more traditionally Democratic areas with tactics like new voter ID laws, it's looking increasingly difficult for Democrats to win the kinds of majorities in the House and Senate that enable enacting any kind of legislative power. Some analysts point to the perception that the party has come to be perceived as serving only the coastal elites and hyper progressive niche activist agendas that can end up seeming to disparage a majority of working class American males whatever their race. So Hillary Clinton's basket of deplorables infamous gaff still haunts the Dem psyche, and Steve Bannon's much touted ability to flip two time Rust Belt Obama voters toward Trump in 2016 may have been the harbinger of what has since come to pass. So can Democrats work to win back the predominantly white middle American working class via emphasizing an economic populist platform? Can that kind of populism start to address the economic anxieties of young men who say they feel left behind? Who will the leaders be of this new kind of Democratic politics? This is what we're talking about today. Perhaps there are some hints in Zoran Mamdani's recent victory in New York with its useful, excuse me, its youthful social media savvy messaging emphasis on affordability and principled brave commitment to authentic truth telling in the face of bigoted smears. Now he couldn't bench press the bare minimum when he good naturedly gave it a try on camera, but boy did he hand Cuomo and Sliwa their asses when they came at him on the debate stage. Perhaps Graham Platner's controversy ridden 2026 Senate campaign in Maine is instructive as we watch him too take economic populist positions as an ordinary white guy military vet. But ironically he has a military background in the kinds of operations that Mamdani's prominent post colonial academic father may have written about in his scathing analysis of America.

[Matthew Remsky]

Oh he did.

[Julian Walker]

Well, let me jump in as the gym rat because by bare minimum you're referring to two plates which is 135 pounds, which is considered a basic warm up for lifting. And I always notice a lot of dudes will leave that amount on the bar instead of racking the weights because in their world they can't perceive that any man couldn't put that up. This type of thinking dominates the fitness world for a certain population, which is what I was talking about a moment ago with a certain perception that exists with certain young and older men. And it brings up a real challenge when it comes to discussions around health and fitness because humans generally need some level of fitness. I fully agree that people need to take care of their bodies, but it's not necessarily the arbitrary amount or the specific markers that are set by fit bros who are just being douchebags when they're being too lazy or proud to clean up after themselves.

[Matthew Remsky]

You know, I can't do 135 pounds because I have cartilage damage in my right shoulder from baseball pitching through my teens, I threw really hard. So that action, like, even at low weights, just makes a Rice Krispies sound. That's totally gross. I just can't stand it.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah. So we have to account for people dealing with all sorts of different realities in the gym as well as in the outside world. I wonder about this Graham Platner campaign, to come back to that. It struggled under a different kind of weight, that of resurfaced online faux pas and that big old skull and bones tattoo he got on his chest while serving in Croatia that turns out to be Nazi affiliated. But as all of that was going down, I noticed progressive commentators that I like, like Emma Vigland and Crystal Ball, wondering out loud if wanting more populist everyman candidates means we probably are going to have to be more collectively forgiving of these kinds of imperfect human story arcs. And then about that Mamdani victory. It coincided with a big swing among young male voters toward him, as well as other Democratic candidates across several states. He won men BY A stunning 40% in New York City, while Abigail Spanberger won them by 14% and Mike Sherrill by 10% in their governor's races in Virginia and New Jersey, respectively. This will no doubt be studied and talked about quite a bit in the coming months as Dems try to reverse engineer some kind of midterm joy in the face of fascist panic. Finally, the ongoing conversation about what is going on with young men. Like, are they being red pilled into maga or black pilled into nihilism and ironic white supremacy or even murderous terrorism? Are they suffering through a loneliness epidemic? That's going to require a lot of empathy. Are they failing at school and college because girls are being favored? Are they feeling ashamed both of their emotional needs and the very fact of being male at all. Well, now perhaps they have a new figurehead who can analyze all of this and help us. Help men?

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, with extensive field work, hundreds of interviews of men in various economic situations from various cultures. No, actually, I'm talking about.

[Derek Barris]

No, not at all.

[Julian Walker]

Not at all.

[Matthew Remsky]

Our episode and the two case studies of Platner Mamdani we're looking at is rolling out against the backdrop of Scott Galloway's new book. It's called Notes on Being a Man and his coordinated media blitz. I'll keep this short because I've already spent a huge amount of time reviewing this book. I'll link to a full review I did in the show. Notes so Mamdani and Platner are men, and they are embodying or presenting ways or performing ways of being men in the world that focus on caregiving and equality. Now, neither of them talk about being men, although Platner did have to go into describing male military culture in his explanation of his Reddit history, because they don't need to. They're doing stuff. But Galloway, who is a Marketing Prof. Worth $100 million, who podcasts for most of his days, has to talk about it because talking is his product. And so what does he say? His main thesis? I'll just give it straight up and then I'll give one example of his media technique. And if you have any thoughts or questions on either, I can fill some stuff in briefly. Okay, so his thesis is boys and men are suffering because they have forgotten their essential roles and responsibilities. To be a man, Galloway argues, you must protect, provide, and procreate.

[Derek Barris]

Ah, those his three P's. This is alarmingly adjacent to the variety of political and culture war stances on masculinity that we already know trend toward reactionary anti feminism. Right. Men need to reclaim their traditional gender roles.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah. So the title is Notes on Being a Man, and there are 44 notes or asphorisms that are sprinkled as call outs throughout the book. And you might be shocked to learn that the first one implicitly rejects feminist analysis by saying toxic masculinity is an oxymoron. But I think the funny thing is, and this has to do with its rollout and you know who's going to like this book. The advance reading copy shipped with a letter from the Simon Schuster editor Stephanie Freirek, where she paraphrases bell hooks in support of this book. And my take on this is that mainstream platforms, you know, excited about this kind of liberal Jordan Peterson are going to lean into making Galloway sound like he is more of a feminist than he is. But throughout the book he really shows he doesn't read feminism or really care much about it. So then about his technique. The book is big on vibes because it's kind of thin on policy. So he proposes concrete things like a $25 an hour minimum wage, red shirting boys to hold them back a year in primary school, government investment in housing, and regulating social media. Not a lot. The balance is kind of like this is how you excel at capitalism, young man. However, in his media blitz, he has incorporated into his talking points statements like something that would improve the prospects of young men's lives is Univers universal childcare. So when I heard him first do this on the View or MSNBC or wherever it was, I was like, wait a minute. I went back to the text to see if he mentions this. It's a 300 page book about being a man and the phrase child care doesn't appear. So why is he talking about something that is not in his book as if it was in the same week that Mamdani won in part on that very platform? Promise. I mean, Galloway, I think I can say, is not a leader, but he is a talker.

[Julian Walker]

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[Derek Barris]

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[Matthew Remsky]

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[Derek Barris]

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[Julian Walker]

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[Derek Barris]

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[Julian Walker]

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[Derek Barris]

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[Julian Walker]

As you flag Matthew the two people we're talking about, they don't really give notes on being a man. I mean, Zora Momdani doesn't at all. Platner doesn't really talk about it. I'm not as familiar with him, but since his star wrote knows the term was quickly affixed to him due to his military background, his deep voice, his confrontational nature. I mean, Zoran is confrontational as well, but he's brought elements of play and joy into his campaign the entire time, which really highlights angles of being a man. We don't normally associate with the term masculinity. So I'm going to think about this big picture for a moment. I talk often with my wife and my close female friends about a gulf that's usually not discussed when men talk about masculinity. It's the difference between what women are attracted to and what men think women are attracted to. Now, of course, women, like men, have different desires and tastes, so no single quality is going to appeal to everyone. But from experience, my friendships and relationships have taught me that men often think they're doing things that are attractive to women and really they're just making themselves more attractive to other men, which nothing wrong with that, but I do think it's mentally confusing because the intended audience isn't actually reached, and that makes for a lot of strife and leads to a lot of miscommunication failed expectations. And at the worst end of this misogyny, obviously, I'm also talking about straight men in this equation for this discussion. So of all the conversations I've had with people close to me, they find Zoron wildly attractive. They also find him more of a man than most any other political figure that they've seen. Except perhaps Barack Obama is the other one that comes to mind. And it has nothing to do with his looks or his ability to lift a lot of weight, which he humorously says he can't do. And we can see that that tends to be men trying to appeal to men. And just to be clear, when I say looks, I don't mean style, because that's something that is attractive to many. I mean, the New York Times wrote a pretty good article on why Zoron's clothing choices made such an impact, and I'll include that in the show. Not okay, so again, this is my analysis from conversations and things I pick up on social media. First off, Zoran is funny, and sometimes we underestimate how important that is. It was part of Obama's charms as well. And humor is very political. Back in 1999, I asked George Carlin why, as someone who talks so much about politics, he chose to be a comedian. And he told me, it's because if you make someone laugh, they're more likely to listen to what you have to say. They let their guard down because you made them feel good, and once you're in, you can change their minds. But if you come at them and start yelling at them right off the bat, you're only going to turn them away from whatever you want to say. And even if you say things they might agree with, you've already lost them.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, it's funny, actually, as you're talking about what women find attractive in generalized terms, it makes me think of how often I've heard women say when they're asked that question, oh, humor someone who's funny, right? And because there's something we see in a person who's comfortable with that spontaneity of humor. And with Mamdani, he's funny. But I think that's also part of a relational quality that he simply exudes. He's quick to smile. He smiles with his eyes, he smiles with his whole face. His default setting is to tap into the kinds of warmth and empathy that are necessary for spontaneous humor. He even kind of gives a little bit of that when he's listening to someone say something, something he finds dishonest or ridiculous. And he's got that quick, observant intelligence Obama had that Hillary. Not really. Trump only appears to laugh in the public eye as an expression of cruelty. Right?

[Matthew Remsky]

Well, I think that's the key, is we're talking about a particular type of humor that's not ironic. Except when he's punching up at Cuomo or his backers, he's kind of puckish in relation to his network's of uncles and aunties, so the laughs feel wholesome. His rapper name was Mr. Cardamom, and he rapped about how cool grandmothers are. So cardamom is like a foundational Indian spice for, like, sweet and savory dishes. It's also the spice of hospitality and fresh breath. So I don't know, the humor is like Bollywood crossed with musical theater. It's like wholesome.

[Julian Walker]

You like to say punching up, punching down. I think in this case, Zorin was punching down at Cuomo, given how bad Cuomo was at social media. He was just laying it on it, Right? So Zorin's funny, and he uses social media extremely well. Sure, you want a politician who knows about policy, but guess what? He got his policies across in extremely inventive ways without losing sight that he was also entertaining people. I mean, I just said it a moment ago, but in reality, when. When someone asked Cuomo what he regretted most about his campaign, he said, I should have been better at social media. But you can't do social media, right, if you're a stiff, unfunny person. I mean, you might be able to leverage that in different ways, but when you're up against someone who's mastered the craft, and we should note, Zoran had a team, not a single person filming like Cuomo often did. I mean, Cuomo was just lost from the very beginning of this. So, speaking of, Zoran expressed honest humility. And I think that's another very strong masculine quality. There's a great video of him speaking in Spanish, and then halfway through, you see a fuck up, and then you see another, and then it kind of, you know, breaks through the fourth wall there. And then assembly woman Amanda Septimo, worked as a Spanish coach, is there going over lines with him, teaching him the words. You see her kind of laugh and be like, this word isn't new to you. You've done it before. And then he replies, they're all new words. So instead of the usual pandering to a crowd you often get from politicians, you actually see a man who's struggling to learn something new, which we can all relate to, whether we want to Admit it or not.

[Matthew Remsky]

And I think there's something key in that exchange too, that is probably super attractive and new in American politics, which is you have a 34 year old who is taking criticism from a slightly older, it appears woman. And he's laughing and he's not getting defensive and he's grateful for her help and he's not impatient, like, I mean, even something so small as that. His entire transitional team, I think, is older women. And it's like, how is he actually positioning himself here? He is not putting himself into some kind of commanding, patriarchal alpha position. And with regard to language, he also cut campaign videos in Arabic, Hindi, Urdu, Bengali. Here in Toronto, if you phone City hall with a question or a problem, you can access phone services in 180 languages. And so I looked it up, and in New York City, there's something similar, but it's limited to 10. But I do think that Mamdani is gonna be able to just stand in for that entire system in person if Trump cuts the phone lines.

[Julian Walker]

I still think about the Arabic food I had in Tehra. Toronto. I missed that place. I don't remember the name. I'll have to look it up. It's fantastic.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah.

[Julian Walker]

Okay, so that leads to my last point, because Zoran doesn't pretend to know things that he does not. He was on this Instagram feed, it's probably on Tick Tock too, called Track Star. And this is where the host has you try to guess songs, and sometimes it's people on the street. More, more recently, as it's gained popularity, it's celebrities. And Zoron went on there and he nailed all the New York City hip hop, like, and some deep cuts there too. But he failed, which should have been the easiest one, which is Billy Joel. He had no idea who it was, Mr. New York. And he laughed his ass off when the host told him. But Billy Joel isn't who Zoran is. I mean, us Gen Xers will know him in a heartbeat.

[Matthew Remsky]

Right?

[Julian Walker]

But that's who we are. And Zoran didn't pretend to be anything else. It's kind of like during one of the debates when they were asking about fucking statues and Cuomo and Sliwa were pontificating, and Zohar's like, I don't think about statues. I'm thinking about affordability.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, yeah, that moment is really gold on that show. I mean, on the show they're testing your knowledge, right? So typically the person has some area where they maybe feel fairly confident or whatever. And so, yeah, he nails all those deep hip hop cuts. And then I think the host thought he was kind of teeing it up for him by playing New York State of Mind.

[Matthew Remsky]

Right.

[Derek Barris]

And Mamdani is secure enough not to shut down or fake it. It's like, I don't know who that is. And so of course, we laugh along with him.

[Julian Walker]

And then he used that later on in extra social media to laugh at himself more, which is just brilliant. So perhaps the most masculine trait to me and the people I've talked to is that he's unapologetically himself. Authenticity is sort of a theme here today. He just seems comfortable in his skin. When the right came at him for eating rice with his hands, he posted more photos of himself eating rice with his hands. And I want to also note that people really got on that. But over half the world's population eats rice with their hands, so get out of your fucking bubble. I also noticed that late in his campaign, he was using his middle name, Kwame, more often. Now think about how the right weaponized Hussein, Barack Obama's middle name, which he never really addressed, at least not that I'm aware of. They tried the same with Zoran, and instead of ignoring it, he's like, yeah, that's my name. I'll use it it. And so he said it more, and that had the effect of taking the power away from them. Yeah.

[Matthew Remsky]

And I wonder if anybody dug into Kwame being actually Kwame Nagruma of.

[Julian Walker]

Of the.

[Matthew Remsky]

The revolutionary in what, Ghana?

[Julian Walker]

I. I don't know. I've only seen Zoran say it.

[Derek Barris]

I don't know.

[Matthew Remsky]

That's who he's named for, according to his parents. Yeah.

[Julian Walker]

So you have humor, humility, being comfortable with himself, even his perceived shortcomings. These are not traits you're going to hear about in the bro podcast space. So to get back to your question earlier, Matthew, about the Joe Rogan of the left, I would. Qualities would help to create that sort of environment where they don't take themselves so seriously. And it's certainly not the muscular John Wayne figure traditional Americans have applied to the term masculinity for generations. And I think that's a good thing because that figure is so often an act. Authenticity is so much more attractive to a lot of people, as we saw with the vote total in New York this year. And I'd say that those qualities are at least as important, and even more so in certain cases, as all of the leadership and strength traits that are normally applied to the term.

[Matthew Remsky]

I think all of that is right, Derek. I want to add two things about Mamdani. For me, his deconstruction of the American masculine comes from the fact that he uses humor, humility, and honest self awareness as you're talking about, but to speak for caregiving rather than abstract, defensive values. Like, he's not out there celebrating the nation, pumping up the cops, bragging about how he'll make a show of visiting Israel as soon as he's elected. His attention is how, on how things actually work. One of Cuomo's worst moments, I think, was his soundless commercial of him pretending to fix a guy's car. Mamdani didn't do a car ad, but if he had done a car ad, it would have been where he was sharing chai with, like, a Bangladeshi mechanic who fixes cars 14 hours a day, not pretending to fix a car.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah.

[Derek Barris]

And then Cuomo has that moment with that, like, hail, fellow, well met. How's it going, bro? With the black guy where he tries to, like, dap him up with the.

[Matthew Remsky]

Multiple handshakes right at every opportunity. I think this is key. Mamdani is elevating labor and laborers who are often unseen. And this is from the halal truck guys who tell him why chicken and rice is $10 instead of $7 to. I don't know if you saw these street desk history lessons that he would give on old New York labor leaders or, you know, heroes of trans politics, people whose he's standing on. Like, he's never. He's always citing his sources, right? And then in his acceptance speech, he's quoting Eugene Debs and Jawaharlal Nehru, and his attention is to the unseen citizen is a central theme, so he says. Fingers bruised from lifting boxes on the warehouse floor, palms calloused from delivery bike handlebars, knuckles scarred with kitchen burns. These are not hands that have been allowed to hold power. And yet over the past 12 months, you have dared to reach for something greater. And then he names the unseen people. Quote, thank you to those who often are forgotten by the politics of our city, who made this movement their own. I speak of Yemeni bodega owners and Mexican abuelas, Senegalese taxi drivers and Uzbek nurses, Trinidadian line cooks and Ethiopian aunties. Yes, aunties. So to me, deconstructing masculinity begins with doing what American elite men, especially if they're hyper capitalist, assiduously avoid doing, which is acknowledge things. That there is unseen labor that keeps all of this running. Because you can't talk too much about the work of the abuela or the Uzbek nurse or the Ethiopian auntie, without provoking this question, like, how much are we paying them and what would we do without them?

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, the lines from the speech that you chose, Matthew, they're so moving and humane and I think historic in their inclusivity. It really speaks to a city filled with immigrants and people of color. And I think other earlier Democratic politicians have spoken to some extent in this way about workers and wages, about minorities and immigrants, maybe not as poetically, but in terms of our main topic today, you know, many analysts, as I mentioned, point back to Hillary's infamous basket of deplorables moment on stage. And then Obama's they cling to their guns and their babies in. In a private comment that got leaked as emblematic of how Democrats have lost the white, especially male, working class, which is what they have to win back in the heartland. So I'm just aware here that a Mamdani style of campaign messaging won't turn the tide in Ohio or Wisconsin or Iowa, for example. And I don't think that his elite intellectual and artistic background is much of an asset in that regard either. You know, it plays really well to a particular coastal elite audience.

[Matthew Remsky]

I don't think anybody is dumb enough to copy paste his campaign to Ohio, but I can imagine a male Buckeye candidate doing something similar to deconstruct masculinity there by highlighting nurses and doctors, schoolteachers, women on farms, while pushing socialist policies. Like, Walls ran that software in Minnesota, and he did it with a lot of success. But even then, I don't think the future is written with regard to red state sentiments because there are also Trumpland voters who are remembering this buried labor history. And I think the tariff destruction is probably gonna bring that out even more. And so when I talk to people like Nathan Evans Fox in North Carolina about Appalachian socialism, like, it's there, right? At the surface, it's small, but it's also vibrant. Also, have you guys seen Nicoli Munroe on TikTok, this Southern content creator who calls up white Protestant church? And then she plays this soundtrack of a baby crying. There's no baby there, but there's a baby crying in the background of the call. And then she asks the person who answers the phone or the pastor if they have any baby formula to give or to buy for her? Have you seen this?

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, I saw that. It's a really incredible and damning experiment, right?

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah. So 33 out of 42 churches say no, but then she gets these imams on the line from the local mosque and when she does, it's these God saying, okay, where are you and what brand do you need? So I think things can change in really unexpected ways. The other thing I want to do is to quote from one of the shows I did on Mamdani's parents. It was called Nair Mamdani and Culture against the Culture War. And it was a double episode that was about how Mahmoud Mamdani is a giant in postcolonial studies, as you referenced Julian, and how his mom, Mira Nair, is an incredible filmmaker in what film critic Amardeep Singh, who's an English Prof. At Lehigh University in Pennsylvania, dubbed Diaspora Verite. And what he says about this is that quote. She uses the documentary and realist techniques she started her career with back in the late 70s to explore diverse experiences of migration and displacement. Diaspora Verite is at the root of her commitment to social justice, especially with respect to women and socially and economically marginalized groups, unquote. So Nair emphasizes this naturalistic acting over melodrama. She minimizes narrative or visual manipulation on screen. She films on location rather than in studio. Wherever possible, she uses mobile eye level cameras. Can you see all of the influences on the campaign here, which often give kind of like an immediate home movie flavor. She favors synchronous sound rather than overdubbing. She hires amateur actors and so on. And the scripts are all polyglot, Hindi, Punjabi and English. And Nair's also using these visual motifs, bridges, piers, boats, train stations and shoes to represent movement, migration and the fluidity of identity and the hollowness of static stereotypes. And that's all stereotypes. So cultural, ethnic, religious, and I would also say gendered. And when then we get to Movement Mamdani. Zoran uses the color coding of the Metro card in his campaign design, along with all of the Bollywood echoes of, of the signage that he grew up with. But what stands out most to me is that he also grows up in a world of performance and fluidity. He's on the set often as a child. He's watching men and women and queer people come out of wardrobes ready to perform parts. He's watched characters change and transform continuously. They retain but also deepen their humanity through their relationships and work as they go through these changes.

[Julian Walker]

And.

[Matthew Remsky]

And in one of her most important films, the Reluctant Fundamentalist, Nair tracks the winding life transformations of Changhaz Khan, who's this Pakistani Wall Street Gordon Gecko acolyte whiz kid who realizes he will never be welcomed in New York after 9 11. And so he goes back home to Karachi to Meditate on what the good life really means. And Zoran was 21 when his mom made that film and he was super excited about it. He said, mom, you have to do this. Go and do it. And so how could this guy not become a walking anti stereotype? And I wonder if that actually is close to the heart of his attractiveness. He's just so unusual.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, it's all beautifully said and described and I'm on the edge of my seat. I think these are all qualities that the three of us find attractive and intriguing and admirable and exciting, along with most of our audience. They're all qualities too that are incredibly easy for right wing propagandists to frame as elite, subversive, emblematic of far, far left, multicultural, commie, queer rejections of American culture and family values in favor of some kind of diaspora, you know, aesthetic. So I celebrate his victory alongside you and I love everything you've been describing, but I also bite my nails a bit at how he's now set up to be the kind of bogeyman caricature from the now supposedly even more godless socialist New York City that bigoted populists use to stir up their audience.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, I think it's a question about how long people will buy how much bullshit. You know, I saw Greenblatt of the ADL being put on blast by Joe Scarborough over opening a Mamdani snitch line on the day after the election when the White House and Tesla head office is being ignored by the adl. They're crawling with open anti Semites and Tucker Carlson is platforming Nick Fuentes. And so that that kind of, I don't know, skepticism, now, growing skepticism of, of certain sort of tropes that have been marshaled against Mamdani tells me that the bar is rising on how inanely this guy can be smeared going.

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[Matthew Remsky]

Speaking of stereotypes, how about Graham Platner, the ex Marine oyster farmer and Democratic primary candidate for ousting Susan COLLINS from her 28 years in the Senate representing Maine. Does he bolster stereotypes or break them? I think he walks the line between the two, like he bolsters on the aesthetic side, but breaks them on the caregiving and policy side. Or at least he breaks the masculine stereotype of rugged individualism will rule all. For those who forget or who never had a sense of how muscular the labor movement, for instance, has been in decades gone by. But Platner and Mamdani are running similar policy platforms, affordability, supporting the working class, raising the minimum wage, socializing health, childcare, mental health care. But they cut really different figures, beginning with origins from opposing geopolitical stories we have the diaspora Muslim and the machine gunner sent to enforce US objectives in Iraq and Afghanistan. Platner is a testosterone mountain. Derek, you noted the voice, which ranges from basso profundo gruff to boiling over baritone outrage. And he's not cutting ads in Spanish or Urdu or Arabic. He's not built his charisma on fluidity, but on a single steel Cable of unified authenticity. There's our word again. And online, at least, that becomes an Achilles heel when Politico digs up dirt on his Reddit comments and then his Totenkov tattoo. But Platner does also show a kind of fluidity, or he apparently shows it in his story about the development of his values and character. And then that story itself demands a certain type of forgiveness or fluidity amongst the public, especially with regard to the question of can a person be many things? Can a person change?

[Derek Barris]

Yeah. One thing I found in reading up on him a little bit is that when asked by a journalist why he served in Iraq after having protested that war, his answer was, I thought we could do some good and I wanted to play soldier. I may have read too much Hemingway.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, it's an adventurous statement. Like he's actually indicating that he knows that the structure was wrong or it was false, but that somehow he could have some heroic purchase in it. But even that, I mean, we're going to go into his history or what he says about his history. Even that is anti fascist coded because Hemingway went to fight for the International Brigades. So Platner is flagging like a cognitive dissonance because he did not go to Iraq on Hemingway's ticket. Now, the Reddit comments express socialist views through military humor, but there are red flags for racism and sexism. So for instance, he wondered in 2013 why black people don't tip more in restaurants. He's speaking as a bartender. He used homophobic slurs and he minimized the impacts of sexual assault in the military. But in many posts he also just sounds like a tanky. He's referring to police as bastards. Rural white Americans are actually racist and stupid. And he identified himself as a communist and expressed support for violent revolutionary action. And then when confronted with these comments from his handle, P Hustle, he owned them, apologized for the language. And then he talked about having grown up and out of his post war PTSD ridden experience. And so this was had the air of both accountability and revelation. He became the guy who is now fighting against the culture that had made him into a wounded warrior, fighting for, as he describes it, meaningless imperial causes.

[Julian Walker]

I haven't tracked Platner as nearly as closely as Mamdani. I mean, I've never even been to Maine. I lived in New York for 12 years, so I have a little more investment in that. But it's. It seems one crossover is that both men had to confront past statements that seem pretty extreme. They were in certain cases and both made amends of sorts with them and made their language broader and more embracing to a larger population without losing the underlying populism. And both seem to be forgiven by their constituents. I mean we'll see how Platner does when election time comes. But Mamdani, obviously, I mean I don't even think it was a question of forgiveness. People just loved him. And this is a relatively new course for Democratic candidates. I guess the only question I would have with Platner at this point is, you know, we've talked a little bit about authenticity and where it crosses over with morals, but it also comes to to the question of how are you representing your past, which I think will be an interesting one to navigate because I'm a little more skeptical of Platner just given how many people in his life have come out kind of questioning some things he has said. So that that will bring another layer to the authenticity question to me when it to looking at his candidacy.

[Matthew Remsky]

To your point, Derek, all of these outlets were digging out Mamdani quotes, but they weren't secret. I mean they were all made openly no Reddit handle things about seizing the means of production and so on. And they're not harmful off color shitposts either. And so as you said, I'm not sure anyone had to forgive that. And he didn't either really walk it back. Although he did say I'm a democratic socialist when he asked the communism question. So not really things to apologize for. But Platner's situation really does beg the apology. And for people to ask like has he really matured with Mamdani, it's more like how is he going to finesse that? But then we have the tattoo. So October 20, his campaign tries to get in front of another story by releasing a wedding party video in which he's shirtless and singing and there's a Nazi Totenkopf skull and crossbones tattoo on his right pectoral muscle. He claims he got it while drunk in the service in Croatia in 2007, that he had no idea what it meant. And a lot of folks, including me, found this impossible to believe given his military history, his knowledge of geopolitics, and his presumed commitment to anti fascism. Now, by October 24, CNN confirms reports that as late as 2020 on Reddit, Platner is discussing the strangeness of Nazi tattoos. General in the US Military on Reddit saying that insignia like the double bolts could be used by white and black and Latino servicemen alike, presumably to signify ruthlessness. So it looks to me like he likely knew what it was. He tried to, you know, he tried on a lie to start out with his. With his pushback. But there's nothing in his Reddit history that shows a finish or sympathy for fascism. It's all the opposite. So is the truth about the tattoo either too complex or too stupid to try to parse out in the meat grinder news cycle? I wonder if that's the calculation.

[Derek Barris]

I'm curious, Matthew. If you had just seen an image of that tattoo separate from any text describing what it was, would you have immediately gone, that's a Nazi tattoo?

[Julian Walker]

Yeah.

[Matthew Remsky]

I wouldn't have said Totenkopf, because I didn't know the German word, but I. I definitely knew it was a Nazi emblem. It was on the villain's cap in Inglourious Basterds. Like, it's pretty out there. I don't think it's obscure for people in military and gun culture from what I've read as well. Most tattooists, like, west of the Balkans, like, would not have that in their shop. So I don't know why he's flubbed this. But this part of the story highlights for me one of the subconscious anxieties around male and masculine figures and stereotypes, which is, is this person true to their word? Are they dependable? Will they turn on you, betray you? Is their support for you conditional or not? I think it's an anxiety that's a natural outcome of the patriarchal promise, which is, if we maintain this kind of social order, you will be protected. I think that messaging still holds sway in maga, but it just doesn't wash left of that. There's too many bullies, too many abusive church ministers, too many war hawks, too many authoritarians who just give the lie to that promise of protection. But neither Platner nor Mamdani are offering protection. They're offering support. I believe the cultural echo of the betraying patriarchy arc is so strong, however, that doubting them both from the left is simply going to happen. Democratic voters in Maine have to decide whether Platner really does have socialism in his bones, or whether he's a cosplayer, whether he harbors a secret fascist streak. You know, so far, they seem to not really care much about the tattoo, but that doesn't mean that the federal Democrats won't keep it in play.

[Derek Barris]

I mean, is. Is it that. Are you saying that Democratic voters in Maine are hopeful that he really has socialism in his bones, or are we talking about a kind of economic populist platform?

[Matthew Remsky]

I mean, he calls himself a socialist on Reddit. But then he comes out and he says, of course I'm not a socialist. So. So I don't know. And of course, you know, what's. Is everybody clear on the definition of socialism? You know, I don't know. You might be right that they're, they're going to be judging him on whether he is credible in economic population. I think that with Mamdani, this issue of potential betrayal is more complex, but no less profound. And maybe it has higher stakes because now that Mamdani has won his campaign, the DSA and pro Palestine coalition that helped put him there is going to be examining his statements on Israel super closely. And they're already doing that. So they're noticing that he's keeping on Police Commissioner Tisch, that he's going to have, have. He's said he's going to have Zionists in his cabinet. Of course, that could mean Brad Lander, who calls himself a Zionist. And does he really want to help Trump justify invading Venezuela by low key echoing White House talking points on Maduro, they're talking about things like this. And I think the stakes are higher in some ways because in light of Mamdani's culture, education, family background, his longtime commitment to socialism, watching him drift towards the center to make good with the Democratic infrastructure is really the stuff of left wing nightmares because it would represent another huge waste of opportunity and watering down of the values that helped him win with Platner. I think it's gonna be a lot easier, if it comes to it, for people to shrug and say, well, you know, once a Marine, always a Marine, and let him go.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, I think you're right that it's more complex. I mean, with regard to Maduro, I think Mamdani can accurately identify him as a dictator without somehow inevitably justifying war crimes against his people. So I trust that someone as smart as Mamdani can walk and chew gum at the same time in this regard. And I've also said and thought all through this campaign that Mamdani's ability to adapt in his political communication is one of his biggest strengths. He did it extremely skillfully on the most contentious issue of our time over the course of the campaign, finding a way to both condemn Hamas and the genocide in Gaza. At the same time, I think it'll likely, as things play out, make him endure the same fate as someone like Alexandria Ocasio Cortez in terms of being labeled to sell by the DSA and other far left groups. But personally, I care less about that than about his ability to get things done for New Yorkers and improve life for all people there, especially those who need it the most.

[Matthew Remsky]

I think his communications are good, but I think his strengths come from his values. I also would disagree with some things because the DSA is not far left. I think also that keeping pressure on your representative on things like post colonial history and ethics isn't synonymous with throwing him away. It's not like these are like legitimate long standing political disputes. I also think that criticism is also a form of engagement and relationship on the left. It's even supportive. But I think your points do underline the problem of trust behind Mamdani that I'm flagging.

[Derek Barris]

So wait, wait. The DSA is not far left?

[Matthew Remsky]

No, no. They're a bridge party to the Democrats, to the Democratic Party.

[Derek Barris]

Oh, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying.

[Matthew Remsky]

They don't field candidates. There are communist parties, there are anarchist organizations. But like the DSA is kind of like a broker between the two, between far left organized politics to the extent that there are any and there aren't much. And the Democratic Party, that's why they don't feel candidates, they're like, okay, what from this field of radical left people who are committed to electoral politics can we support on their, their entriest project into the Democratic Party? That's what they're there for.

[Derek Barris]

So they aim to support radical left candidates, but they're not far left.

[Matthew Remsky]

Well, they're not a. No, because to the extent that they believe in the efficacy of the Democratic Party, they're not far left. No.

[Derek Barris]

So to truly be far left, you have to have completely abandoned any hope of being able to influence or affect. Affect the Democratic Party in a positive way.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, I think there's a lot of evidence. Yeah. That it's, that it's very difficult that, that actually the, the view is the Democratic Party is beholden to the same donor class that the Republicans are and that, you know, so, so different party politics are required.

[Julian Walker]

So the only candidate from that. Those parties that could actually be endorsed fully could not run on a Democratic ticket.

[Matthew Remsky]

What like the revolutionary Communists of America or something like that? No, they wouldn't.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, they would have to win on that ticket. They couldn't win as a Democrat in order to.

[Matthew Remsky]

They wouldn't run as a Democrat.

[Julian Walker]

Okay, so that, that answers the question.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, they wouldn't run because. Because as soon as they run they.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matthew Remsky]

Bit by bit they are drawn towards, you know, the party apparatus. Bit by bit they're drawn towards, you know the funding structure, they're going to have to compromise on what their actual value values are. Right.

[Julian Walker]

So how many candidates from those parties have won in American politics?

[Matthew Remsky]

Very few, Derek. Very few. Yeah. So whatever version of masculinity Democrats put forward, I think for a lot of folks who are hypervigilant about betrayal, the line in the sand is going to be drawn on trust and consistency. And just the last thought I had right before we started recording that I jotted down here is that I personally can't help but to imagine that something really, really old is being worked out with this. I think, you know, we do a lot of spirituality and religion on this podcast, and we've talked a lot about the dominant, you know, monotheisms at play in our political sphere. And what they share is an eternally ambivalent father. You know, the God who loves, the God who punishes, the God who provides, who takes away, the God who strikes down kings but also kills his son. This is the God you can never quite trust until you reinvent him by rewriting the old stories. And that takes a lot of courage and effort. And I think, you know, that's what somebody like Mamdani is up against.

[Derek Barris]

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