289: Big Wellness’s Nicotine Gambit [feat Mallory DeMille]

Summary

Conspirituality Podcast 289: “Big Wellness’s Nicotine Gambit” [feat. Mallory DeMille]

Release Date: January 1, 2026
Hosts: Derek Beres, Matthew Remski, Julian Walker
Guest: Mallory DeMille

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the latest trend sweeping the alternative and contrarian wellness corners: the idea that nicotine, long demonized for its role in tobacco addiction and disease, is actually a wellness “hack” with numerous health benefits. The hosts, joined by Mallory DeMille, investigate the influencers, pseudo-experts, and right-leaning wellness content creators who are rebranding nicotine as a suppressed miracle substance. They explore how parasocial dynamics, affiliate marketing, and culture wars have converged to create a Wild West of nicotine misinformation—sometimes even targeting children or people with autism.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Emergence of “Wellness Nicotine”

• Background:
  • Since tobacco warnings and strict regulation, nicotine alone is being repackaged by wellness influencers as a supplement for energy, immunity, and even chronic disease resistance.
  • Influencers claim, with little evidence, that nicotine treats conditions from Parkinson’s to COVID, and even autism.
  • This is driven by the “contrarian wellness” ethos: if mainstream medicine says “danger,” the grifters say “hidden cure.”
  • Mallory: "I must have assumed it was satire... but I misread that completely... nicotine pouches and patches have fast become the new darling for what ails you." [06:03]

2. The Role of Influencers and Pseudoscience

• Virality on Social Platforms:
  • TikTok, Instagram, and podcasts are spreading the gospel of “clean nicotine,” featuring anecdotal testimonials over science.
  • Example: A typical viral influencer post promises “I haven’t been sick for three months, my inflammation is down, my brain fog is gone,” offering to send followers a “doctor’s podcast and my favorite brand” in exchange for engagement. [04:40–05:35]
• Skepticism from Hosts:
  • Julian: "But Mallory, it's a naturally occurring substance. I mean, game over." [06:42]
• Core Tactics:
  • Products are marketed as "direct-to-consumer," "low dose," and "clean," leveraging fear of Big Pharma and government “cover-ups.”

3. The Source: Dr. Bryan Ardis & The Wonderland of Chiropractic Medicine

• Who is Bryan Ardis?
  • A chiropractor and functional medicine promoter infamous for COVID conspiracy theories and pseudoscientific claims.
  • Claims nicotine is a cure for myriad diseases, from cancers to myocarditis—presented with no credible evidence.
• Direct Quotes from Ardis:

  "Nicotine is a published cure for Parkinson's disease, MS, Alzheimer's... They dissolved within 72 hours glioblastoma tumors with nicotine." [07:37–08:25] In his book, he includes bizarre, anti-scientific passages (e.g., COVID as a combination of “snake venom and deep-sea creatures”).

• Hosts’ Commentary:
  • Julian: Reads an excerpt from Ardis’s book to highlight its conspiratorial and sensationalist tone. [10:12]
  • Derek: "The writing is truly Pulitzer Prize-ready material." [09:23, sarcasm]

4. Wellness Influencer Culture & Parasocial Marketing

• Mallory’s Analysis:
  • The “dangerous” influence of podcasters like Alex Clark (Culture Apothecary podcast, Turning Point USA) who push affiliate links and supplements, blurring lines between review, advice, and commerce.
  • Example clip: “I bought everything. Red light machine… the nicotine patches...” [19:12–20:26]
• Quote: Mallory: "Her job is to influence you to buy what she's advertising... there are discount codes galore in her show notes..." [22:33]
• Parasocial Influence:
  • Listeners openly admit to purchasing everything their favorite influencers mention, trusting them above experts or doctors.
  • Matthew: "There seems to be... a customer wants some sort of completeness in their parasocial relationship. It's like assembling a look with accessories." [24:54]
• Fact-Checking? Who Cares?
  • Mallory: "Alex herself has stated point blank that she doesn’t fact check her guests because, guys, she doesn’t have the time." [23:09]

5. Right-Wing Culture War & Nicotine as Identity

• Politicization & "Nicotine Nationalism":
  • The trend is heavily championed by right-wing figures as a symbol of rugged individualism, anti-elite rebellion, and “optimal” masculinity.
  • Cited: RFK Jr. popping Zyn during Congress; Tucker Carlson launching his own “non-political” nicotine brand (ALP).
• Quotes:
  • Greg Price: "A man with nicotine, caffeine, protein and creatine coursing through his veins is an unstoppable force." [27:52]
  • Tucker Carlson: "I'm saying if you don't want politics in your mouth in the first place... How about a non-political nicotine pouch... then get in your non-political car and drive to your non-political house and just, like, live a normal life and like laugh at boner jokes once in a while. It's okay. That's what I want." [30:44–31:26]
• The Hosts' Response:
  • Julian: "He wants to laugh at boner jokes and he wants to not be forced by liberals to make everything political. Meanwhile, one of the reasons he turned against Zyn is that apparently they endorsed Kamala in the last election." [32:04]

6. What Does the Evidence Actually Say?

• Science of Nicotine:
  • Nicotine is addictive, and its only FDA-approved use is to help quit smoking.
  • Any other health claims are unsubstantiated and potentially dangerous.
  • Professor Ray Niora (NYU): Sweden’s use of snus (a less harmful smokeless tobacco) correlates with lower smoking rates and some cancer reductions, but does not mean nicotine is a universal wellness tool. [16:15–17:33]
  • Julian: "It's much better for you than smoking doesn't really translate to it being the ultimate wellness hack." [17:33]

7. Taboo, Biohacking, and 'Optimization Bros'

• Hosts Discuss the Irony:
  • “Hacks” are often about breaking taboos—raw milk, urine therapy, now nicotine—turned into an emblem of vitality and anti-authoritarianism.
  • Julian: Noting the language—“cycling” nicotine—borrowed from bodybuilding steroids. [38:34]
  • Matthew: "They are hackers... the result of breaking rules is fitness and vitality and freedom." [38:34]

8. The Most Dangerous Frontier: Nicotine Recommendations for Kids & Autism

• Terrifying Turn:
  • Some influencers & “doctors” (e.g., Tony Jimenez, Bryan Ardis) openly discuss or recommend using nicotine patches on children, including those with autism.
  • Sample dialogue from a wellness influencer and Dr. Tony Jimenez:
    • "Cutting it in half, the seven milligrams, and then cutting that little piece in four and then starting with that dose." [39:37–39:44]
    • "Yes, children could do it also…" [39:44]
• Facebook Example:
  • Parents in Facebook autism groups now inquire about giving nicotine patches to their children, referencing Ardis.
• Matthew's Reflection:
  • Explains the desperation in these parental groups and the broader societal failures that drive people toward such “miracle” cures. [43:31–46:51]
• Tragic Real-World Outcome:
  • Case cited: Grandmother in El Paso put multiple nicotine patches on a four-year-old autistic grandson, sent him to the hospital, resulting in a criminal conviction. [48:54–49:01]
  • Julian: “Now I feel terrible that I was laughing at that last comment. This is awful. And it underlines the understandable, dangerous logic that can emerge from medical misinformation.” [49:01]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mallory: “It’s clear that Alex Clark’s job is to influence you to buy what she’s advertising... But when your show really only has contrarian health and wellness guests and the topics are controversial claim after controversial claim—where is the line drawn?” [22:33]
• Derek: "Autism is not a nicotine deficiency." [47:31]
• Matthew: "[The customer wants] completeness in their parasocial relationship. It’s like assembling a look with accessories." [24:54]
• Tucker Carlson: “How about a non-political nicotine pouch and you can consume that with your non-political beer and then get in your non-political car...” [30:44]
• Mallory: "[Influencers] will always say, do your own research—but they don’t fact check, don’t care about accuracy, and have guests contradict each other." [25:10]
• Julian: "If nicotine becomes a kind of vitality enhancer, they are taking something taboo and making it into a virtue... like raw milk, urine therapy, RFK swimming in shitty water..." [38:53]
• Matthew (re: autism FB post): "The culture knows enough about autism to diagnose, but not enough about how to accommodate what autism means... So it’s just really shitty this parent is reaching out for wellness grift advice." [43:31–46:51]

---

Important Timestamps

• 03:31 — Mallory introduces the nicotine-as-wellness trend among influencers.
• 04:40–05:35 — Example TikTok influencer pitches nicotine pouches as a health hack.
• 07:37 — “Dr.” Bryan Ardis’s waterfall of pseudo-cures attributed to nicotine.
• 10:12 — Julian reads a conspiratorial passage from Ardis’s book.
• 16:15–17:33 — WSJ/Professor Niora audio segment: what science actually says about nicotine.
• 19:12–20:26 — Clip of follower who buys everything an influencer pushes, including nicotine pouches.
• 22:33 — Discussion of parasocial influence and Alex Clark's affiliate empire.
• 27:52 — Greg Price's "unstoppable force" quote on nicotine and masculinity.
• 30:44–31:26 — Tucker Carlson on “non-political” nicotine pouches.
• 37:03–38:34 — Users describe their “clarity” on nicotine; hosts analyze the pleasure/taboo dynamic.
• 39:37–40:20 — Influencer and “Dr.” Tony Jimenez discuss micro-dosing nicotine patches for kids.
• 42:38–47:31 — Claims about nicotine for autism; Facebook parenting groups.
• 48:54–49:19 — Real-world outcome: Grandmother charged for giving child multiple nicotine patches.

---

Conclusion & Takeaways

The episode exposes how alt-wellness influencers and political actors are leveraging nicotine’s rebranding as a health “secret” to sell products and ideology—often with no evidence but with considerable financial and cultural incentives. Whether it’s charismatic pseudo-doctors, affiliate marketers, or MAGA-adjacent podcasters, the endpoint is the same: spreading dangerous misinformation to increasingly desperate or disillusioned people.

Final thought from Mallory:
“As we enter the new year, I can't help but wonder what kind of wellness hacks they will come up with next.” [49:31]

---

For concerned listeners: The only medically-approved use for nicotine without tobacco is for quitting smoking. All other wellness claims are unproven and potentially harmful, especially for children and teens. If you are seeking medical advice, consult a qualified healthcare professional, not an influencer.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, Sal. Hank. What's going on? We haven't worked a case in years. I just bought my car at Carvana and it was so easy.

[B]

Too easy.

[A]

Think something's up? You tell me. They got thousands of options, found a great car at a great price, and it got delivered the next day. It sounds like Carvana just makes it easy to buy your car, Hank. Yeah, you're right. Case closed.

[C]

Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply.

[A]

Hey, do you have trouble sleeping? Then maybe you should check out the Sleepy Podcast. It's a show where I read old books in the public domain to help you get to sleep. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. It was the age of wisdom. Classic stories like A Tale of Two Cities, Pride and Prejudice, Winnie the Pooh. Stories that are great for kids and adults alike. So whether you have a tough time snoozing or just like a good bedtime story, fluff up the cool side of your pillow and tune into Sleepy. Unless you're driving. Then please don't listen to Sleepy. Find Sleepy wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Sunday. Sweet dreams.

[D]

Hey, everyone. Welcome to Conspirituality, where we investigate the intersections of conspiracy theories and spiritual influence to uncover cults, pseudoscience, and authoritarian extremism. I'm Derek Barris.

[B]

I'm Matthew Rimsky.

[A]

I'm Julian Walker.

[C]

And I'm Mallory Demille.

[D]

You can find us on Instagram and threads at Conspirituality Pod. You can find Mallory over there at. This is Mallory and we are all individually on Blue sky, although Julian and Mallory don't really partake there. Yeah, but I'm there a lot and I see Matthew once in a while.

[A]

I'm not.

[C]

You.

[D]

It's the best network. I'm going to get you guys. We're going to get over there. All of us. You can access all of our episodes ad free, plus our Monday bonus episodes on [e-mail] conspirituality or you can just grab our Monday bonus episodes via Apple subscriptions. As independent media creators, we really appreciate your support. Ports.

[A]

Conspirituality 289 Big Wellness's nicotine gambit In 1965, the US passed the Federal Cigarette Labeling and Advertising Act. The reason? Every pack of cigarettes has a warning label informing you about the potentially harmful effects. Since then, numerous regulations, educational drives, and taxation initiatives have made smoking less appealing and harder to do in the contrarian wellness space. Nicotine has become the alkaloid du jour Forget cigs. This special chemical helps your energy, mood and at the far end of the influencer spectrum, treats cancer and autism. Without that being medical advice, of course. And while nicotine has been shown to be potentially beneficial for a small range of issues, wellness influencers once again are sprinting the cart in front of the horse. Mallory DeMille returns to break down the latest wellness buzz.

[C]

Hello listeners, I'm back. And that's because wellness influencers have decided to add something to their morning routine. In between the coffee enemas and parasite cleanses, and at a time that is popularized by kicking bad habits, these influencers seem to be rolling the dice on adding a historically bad one back in. This one simple trick could be pretty addicting. Literally.

[E]

I've been experimenting with nicotine for the last three months and before I lose you as a follower, hear me out. So nicotine is a naturally occurring substance that is found in red tomatoes and eggplants and food that we eat. This is not tobacco, this is nicotine that is also in cigarettes. But nicotine is a naturally occurring substance that has a ton of health benefits. What I would love to do is send you the podcast that I listen to and the brand that I found that has a low dose. So it starts off at a 1.5 milligram dose which is very low. It's an oral pouch you put in your mouth. They do direct to consumer which means you can buy the flavors no matter whatever state you're in. And I want to hear what your feedback is after you listen to this podcast from a doctor. So in the podcast he shares the historical medicinal use of nicotine, how it's being used to treat dementia, Alzheimer's, chronic illness. He talks about the study that was done during COVID for people who were either using nicotine pouches or smoking cigarettes and how Covid did not affect them. He also talks about Big Pharma and how big Pharma is trying to get rid of nicotine because of all the health benefits. It's really, really fascinating and I just want to invite you guys to learn more and make an informed decision. My personal experience with it has been great. I have not been sick over the last three months. I feel like my inflammation is down, my brain fog is down, my immune system seems stronger and in the afternoon if I were to have energy dip, I instead of drinking another coffee and getting more calories, I put an oral pouch in at a 1.5 milligram dose and it gets me through the afternoon. So if you comment the word nicotine I will not only send you the podcast, but I'll send you the brand that I found that is clean, has a low dose, is direct to consumer for flavors, and then just let me know what your thoughts are.

[C]

I don't realize until I'm listening to just the audio that they're always, like, filming in a car or super close to a highway for some reason.

[D]

And those edits were not mine, by the way, when I was cropping the audio. That is her stopping and starting all the time with the car traffic happening. It's something.

[B]

Also, she's making a lot of mistakes and do overs too, because the audio of the traffic is actually changing wildly between the cuts. Right. So she's piecing it together, but to.

[C]

The bigger point here. Nicotine. When I first saw nicotine being touted as a wellness hack, I must have assumed it was satire. And I'm someone who dabbles in satire on my own stuff. But I misread that completely and I scrolled right. By then I saw it again and knew I'd probably have to talk about it at some point. And so here we are. From COVID and spike proteins to menopause to Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, nicotine pouches and patches have fast become the new darling for what ails you. You see, it's not the nicotine that's addicting. It's actually everything else in the cigarette that is. And the government has been suppressing the health benefits of nicotine because of course they would.

[A]

But Mallory, it's a naturally occurring substance. I mean, game over. Also, she has a doctor on to talk, but I guess Big Pharma still wants to make it seem bad, right?

[C]

Yeah, we'll get to the doctor in a second. But when you're a wellness contrarian, you kind of end up having to oppose all health and safety information and guidelines put out by the government. Though with the current administration in America, that seems to be changing. Maybe. And so here we are, folks, risking a nicotine addiction because they heard about it on a podcast. I also can't help but laugh at all those promoting it being like, I put the patch on and I felt great. And I'm like, yeah, I bet you do. So where did this nicotine is actually healthy obsession actually come from? Well, there's one chiropractor, if you can believe it, that seems to be the root cause of most, if not all of these claims. The woman clipped at the top of this episode who said she would send you the podcast episode with a doctor she was of course, talking about this chiropractor.

[A]

Nicotine is a published cure for Parkinson's disease, Ms. Alzheimer's, ulcerative colitis, all arthritis, all of them. Psoriatic gout, osteo, rheumatoid. Did you know it's also a published cure? I already mentioned it. Myocarditis. Did you know that during 2021, while we were all locked down at home during COVID 19, that our government in the United States was paying researchers to investigate two of the 36 poisons that were found in all COVID patients and they injected them into mammals and created within 72 hours glioblastoma tumors. And then they were paid by our government to see if they could reverse glioblastoma tumor formation that they created in three days or less. And do you know what they dissolved within 72 hours? Glioblastoma tumors with nicotine.

[D]

Brian Ardis is, as you flag Mallory, a chiropractor and alternative medicine promoter who, like so many that we cover on this podcast, hit it big with his COVID 19 contrarianism. He Previous operated functional medicine practices in Tennessee and Texas and says he specializes in autoimmune disorders, which is totally something chiropractic school qualifies you for.

[B]

Crack. Crack.

[D]

As you said in a recent video on your Instagram, Mallory, not all chiropractors, but always a chiropractor. Artis is also an author. In 2024 he published a book called Moving beyond the COVID 19 Lies Restoring Health and Hope for Humanity. And obviously it relies on a strong anti estab establishment narrative. He claims to expose the truth about COVID 19 vaccines and the dangerous drugs promoted by official health agencies. It's very deep, state coded. There's a long standing global conspiracy by government and pharmaceutical organizations to harm the public for profit that predates Covid but was ramped up once the pandemic started. That's basically the water he's swimming in. In the book, COVID 19 was really a plan to control the populace and surprise offers alternative solutions for combating the virus. So evidence for this global conspiracy. Nah, nah, that just gets in the way of a good story. But you can be certain that Anthony Fauci is part of it. And the writing is truly Pulitzer Prize ready material. Julian, can you read this excerpt from the deeply investigative journalism from chapter one, please?

[A]

I'd be happy to. So again I posed the question. Did a pangolin batch or lifeless sea creature at a market cough into the air only for a single human being or a group of people? In Wuhan, China, to inhale the same air, obviously within a six foot radius into their lungs. Then those same humans coughed on other humans who coughed on the rest of the world and created a global pandemic. Ironically, the coughing bat, or pangolin, whatever that is, also know that just a few months after they coughed on those people in China, the next calendar year 2020 was a presidential election year in the United States. Or was that just the coincidence too?

[D]

Oh, I don't trust pangolins, especially not the coughing ones. I know listeners, you want to hear more of this, but let's skip ahead to chapter 15, which is titled Gifts for Healing and Artist Promises. It's not just for long Covid sufferers of the vaccine injured because obviously vaccines are in this book too. He assures us that these gifts are not only for people afraid of being shed on from the vaccinated, nor is it for people who have been bitten by a snake. Artis devotes a whole chapter to comparing COVID 19 to snake venom, with obvious healing remedies for that too. And yet another amazing thing that you learn in chiropractic school.

[A]

Yeah, I want to just interject here, everyone to say that Brian Ardis was on stage at that conscious expo that I report, Conscious Life Expo. I reported from back in March for episode 196 where I got to take that photograph with Del Bigtree and I got to sit and listen to Sasha. What the hell's his name?

[D]

Stone Stone.

[A]

Yeah, my Zimbabwean countryman, Sasha Stone. But this guy, Brian Artis, he took over the panel discussion with all of this stuff that was, you know, Covid is deliberately manufactured. It used a combination of snake venom and other poisonous substances excreted by deep sea creatures. It was my first time hearing anyone in wellness touting nicotine so passionately. And so I just kind of sat there with my jaw on the floor recording 196.

[D]

So that was probably March 2023 that you saw him, right?

[A]

You know, I, I looked back at the episode and I, I was, I couldn't believe that it would. That it was 2025. So. Yeah, you're probably right. I must have just.

[B]

Yeah, but he was he nicotine then. So he's been on this for a long time.

[A]

Yeah, and all of this like weird snake venom creatures from the bottom of the sea, kind of real incredible confabulation.

[B]

And back then he wasn't clear on what a pangolin was either. That's still a blank for him.

[A]

That's the one thing that they missed in chiropractic school is pangolin.

[B]

Pangolin, yeah, right.

[D]

In his book, Artus breaks down the body's healing process, which he qualifies by repeating that he believes in miracles. He then suggests you get a troponin test. The heart muscle releases troponin after a cardiac event like a heart attack, making it a key biomarker for diagnosing heart injury. So you know if you've been shed on by a vaccinated person, you want to know if it broke your heart. Now, if you do have elevated troponin, time to take a whole bunch of supplements, including his foreign protein cleanse, which he claims detoxes spike proteins. His big pitch for elevated troponin, however.

[B]

Nicotine patches 7 milligram patch wear new patch daily to confidently know how best to use nicotine agents like gum and patches, I recommend that you go to the patient resources section of thedrtistshow.com and download my free document titled Nicotine PDF. It covers how to use various nicotine agents in various health scenarios. Daily I wear a 3 milligram nicotine patch that I cut and will wear for life because of the many advantageous health reasons. You can read and watch my three hour presentation and download my free PowerPoint presentation on the many health benefits of nicotine at www.theartistshow.com.

[D]

I love downloading PowerPoint presentations. If I have one hobby, that's what I look for. Now, artists isn't just talking about troponin. He claims nicotine patches and supplements are miracle treatments for COVID 19, Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer' tumors, hypothyroidism, even aggressive cancers such as, as you heard before, glioblastoma. Nicotine is not inherently addictive. He says the supposed dangers stem from other chemicals added to tobacco products, especially pyrazines. And it's really pharmaceutical and government interests that have intentionally concealed nicotine's benefits for profit. There's just a few problems with those claims. People who actually know what they're talking about. Those dreaded experts realize that nicotine is scientifically recognized as an addictive substance itself. The only FDA approved use for nicotine patches is for smoking cessation. Artists claim that nicotine cures or prevents those aforementioned diseases is not supported by any clinical evidence. And some findings suggest nicotine may even promote cancer cell. Finally, the notion that nicotine is not addictive but pyrazines are conflicts with decades of addiction research. Okay, all that said, I want to make sure we don't. We don't only paint Nicotine in a completely bad light. Here's an example of why nuance matters and that nicotine is in fact being tested for a variety of potential uses. I'm going to play a quick clip here from a 2024 Wall Street Journal investigation into Zinn and the voice you'll hear Ray Niora, who is a professor of global public health at nyu.

[B]

According to the fda, nicotine is addictive, but by itself it doesn't cause cancer or lung disease. We don't really, you know, 100% know what the long term effects of nicotine use are. However, we do have some pretty good indications from evidence that comes from other parts of the world. So for example, the country of Sweden is famous for using a product called Swedish Snus. Snus is a moist, pasteurized, smokeless oral tobacco product which is placed under the lip to deliver nicotine through the gums. It has been used by consumers in Sweden since the 1970s. And this is a product that's in some ways similar to Zyn. It's actually the precursor to Zyn and it's known to be much less toxic compared to other oral tobacco products. Since snus pouches were first introduced In Sweden in 1973, smoking rates have fallen considerably. Sweden now has the lowest smoking rate of all of the European Union countries. They also now have the lowest rates of smoking related cancer. So that tells me that people who use clean nicotine products are much less likely to develop serious diseases that we know are related to smoking.

[A]

Two quick things here. It's much better for you than smoking. Doesn't really translate to it being the ultimate wellness hack. And this has got to be the first time that a lot of these Maha and MAGA affiliated people are wanting to emulate Sweden. Those terrible democratic socialist communists on anything. Right?

[D]

So as usual, what we see wellness influencers doing and what Mallory is about to get into in the next segment is taking a little bit of science and running ahead, which is not how science actually works.

[C]

This episode is brought to you by Greenlight. Get this. Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't. From swimming lessons to piano classes, us parents invest in so many things to enrich our kids lives. But are we investing in their future financial success? With Greenlight, you can teach your kids financial literacy skills like earning, saving and investing. And this investment costs less than that. After school treat start prioritizing their financial education and future today with a risk free trial at greenlight.com Spotify greenlight.com Spotify Spotify Olivia Culpo here to tell you.

[B]

All about the launch of the new Abercrombie spring denim collection made the way denim should feel.

[E]

Their denim has always been a staple.

[C]

In my wardrobe and has a wide range of fits, styles and washes. Every jean is available in both their classic fit and Viral Curve Love Shop.

[B]

In the app, online and in stores.

[C]

Shopping is hard. I can never find anything in my size.

[D]

I don't even know my size.

[E]

I buy my clothes the same place I buy my groceries.

[C]

There's a better way. Make it easy with Stitch Fix.

[B]

Just share your size, style, budget and done.

[C]

Your personal stylist sends pieces picked just for you. That was easy. Stitch Fix Online Personal styling for everyone. Free shipping and returns. No subscription required. Get started today@stitch fix.com Alex Clark is incredibly dangerous. Especially with this new nicotine episode. And I'm going to tell you why it is because every single time I listen to an episode of hers of Culture Apothecary, I end up buying stuff. I end up buying everything. I end up buying it all. I have. I have. I realized I had a collection forming. This is from the Paul Saladino episode. I bought the skin care. I bought more skin care. I I bought the red light machine. And now with this nicotine episode, I bought the patches and I'm going to be trying them. So that's why Alex Clark is dangerous. Because I spend all of my money on everything she says to buy. So thanks Alex. I love your show by the way. It's amazing. I will keep you guys posted on.

[E]

How my journey with this ghost.

[C]

With this she's shaking the nicotine pouches. Alex Clark is the host of the Culture Apothecary podcast, which has the mandate of quote, healing a sick culture. Its parent company is Turning Point usa and its existence and recent ish rebrand seem to be entirely rooted in promoting RFK Jr. S Make America Healthy Again movement. I talked about Alex in my Maha Mamas episode Almost this time last year. She and her podcast clearly had a huge influence on how some folks decided to vote in the 2024American election. And since then, she has continued to exercise her influence beyond the predictable consumerism of it all.

[A]

Yeah, talk about parasocial influence. I mean, Mallory, that clip is wild because the poster is straight up saying Alex is dangerous and I buy everything she tells me to. But it's meant to be tongue in cheek, even though it's actually true.

[C]

I know when I first saw it shin she said Alex Clark was dangerous. And I know who Alex Clark is. I'M like, yeah. And then she's like, I bought the Palace Saladin supplements. I was like, oh no. The culture Apothecary episode that influenced that woman clip to try nicotine patches was released this May and it's titled Nicotine is not the what Big Pharma hides from parents. Dr. Brian Ardus, D.C. of course, the D.C. standing for Dr. Of Chiropractic. Like I said, most of these claims come back to this particular chiropractor. The show notes for that episode read, we're diving into one of the most misunderstood substances out there, nicotine. It might actually hold powerful healing potential. From neurological conditions to chronic pain and beyond, Dr. Ardus unpacks the history, the science and the coverups, exposing the cracks in a system that's kept real remedies in the shadows. If you keep reading after the five discount codes for supplements, seed oil, free tortilla chips and all natural makeup, you will see next to a star emoji, the top tip which reads, wear a 7 milligram nicotine patch daily.

[A]

Oh my God, isn't this always the way? The list of diversified affiliate marketing and wellness tips. It's like a life changing product and hack for every aspect of your lifestyle.

[C]

Yeah, I just love the idea of, you know, whatever floats your boat. Slap that nicotine patch on before or after your non toxic makeup routine. I really can't think of a better example, like you said Julian, than this to talk about parasocial relationships in the wellness influencer space specifically and what that can mean for your health. It's clear that Alex Clark's job is to influence you to buy what she's advertising. There are discount codes galore in her show notes and on her Instagram. This is of course how being an influencer works and she will also make space in each episode to promote what her guests have to sell. But when your show really only has contrarian health and wellness guests and the topics of discussion are really only controversial health claim after controversial health claims, where is the line drawn of when your listeners should be influenced by what you're saying or you would like them to be influenced by what you're saying and maybe they shouldn't be influenced by what you're sharing because as that listener said in that clip, she was influenced by listening to culture Apothecary to start wearing nicotine patches. And she's not the only one. There are comments on Alex's Instagram suggesting the same from others. What's interesting is that Alex shared that this listener's TikTok to her Instagram stories. So she's fully aware that folks are taking medical advice from her show, even though if you were to ask her, hey, is this medical advice? She'd probably legally say no. The power of parasocial relationships in someone taking controversial health advice from podcasters who they've never met, who don't know who they are, and who don't know anything about their health. And in my opinion, podcasters who actually don't care about your health. Alex herself has stated point blank that she doesn't fact check her guests because, guys, she doesn't have the time. Ultimately, this is an example of an adult woman who was influenced to buy everything Alex has to sell, including the belief that nicotine patches are a suppressed health hack. But if you've been listening to this podcast long enough or followed me for any length of time, you know that these contrarian wellness tips rarely end up being recommended for just adults.

[B]

Mallory, I just want to pick up on this aspect of the person that we just clipped talking about how they've bought everything from Alex's site. There seems to be. It's like the customer wants some sort of completeness in their parasocial relationship. And it almost makes me think that they're talking about assembling, I don't know, like, Le Boo Boos a look.

[C]

A look like an Avengers cast of health products.

[B]

Well, there's that, there's that, but a look with accessories. And do you think that the. Do you think that Alix does this sort of thing where it's like, you know, if you have all of these things together, you've got an ensemble and you're all set. Is that the feeling?

[C]

I mean, like, there's a range, like I said, in how Alex promotes products or beliefs that could lead to products. Like she obviously has products that she has a partnership with that she. There's like a financial obligation or a contractual obligation that she talk about and promote certain products. But then this episode was more about having this controversial guest on, and there wasn't a specific pouch or patch nicotine company. It was just this belief that nicotine is some sort of health hack. And so I think it really runs the range, like I said, of places where she would like for you to be influenced by her and parts where she's maybe a bit neutral or doesn't care because there's no kickback for her in any way. As long as you listen to the episode, I guess then that's all she really cares about. But like I said, she point blank doesn't fact check, because she doesn't have time. Like many of these other podcast hosts or wellness influencers, she will say you need to do your own research. I'm only having on the most contrarian clickbait guests, and that you need to do your own research. But like, I don't think she really cares if you take it all because even sometimes her guests contradict each other. So I don't think she really cares.

[D]

Yeah, I reviewed a lot of videos for this episode. Not even so much on the wellness side because you took care of all that work. Mallory I was watching some by Andrew Huberman on this topic, as he is someone who uses Zen and tries to balance out his skepticism around it with his usual grifting of selling something. There's Peter Atia, our old friend the Carnivore MD himself, Paul Saladino, who I will live I'll own up to this. He made some decent points about nicotine patches being not that great before he swerved into his usual pseudoscientific lane. Most of the videos brought up how nicotine pouches have become part of a culture war. We've covered RFK Jr popping Zen pouches. During a congressional hearing just a couple weeks ago, Kennedy said that nicotine pouches are the safest way to consume nicotine, which all public health officials dispute.

[A]

Yeah, and you know, Derek, the last time we discussed this on the air, I dug into how having a zin pouch tucked into your mouth has also become a kind of cultural signifier for conservative masculinity. Like now here in America, it codes for being a gym bro who's also focused and working hard and optimizing in this edgy way that liberal cucks would be too wimpy to try. And it's also huge on TikTok with what journalist Max Reed calls zinfluencers. And then there's that classic quote I dug up from State Freedom Caucus Comms Director Greg Price, who says a man with nicotine, caffeine, protein and creatine coursing through his veins is an unstoppable force.

[B]

You know, the funny thing is, I'm not sure that they're aware that they're transing themselves here, though, because after your piece, Julian, we got a very helpful email from listener Ilva Soderfelt, who's a historian of medicine at Uppsala University in Sweden and, quote, a heavy user of nicotine pouches myself. In the 70s the pouches were introduced and made it less messy to use, but the loose kind is still available today. The popularity boomed and Social connotations massively changed when the ban on smoking in bars and restaurants was introduced in the early 2000s. I'm in my 40s and when I was a teenager it was still considered scandalous for a woman to use use snus. But this very rapidly shifted and the association with working class men all but disappeared. Products like Zyn that don't contain tobacco, but nicotine infused fibers came around 10 years ago. The funny thing is they are often more feminine coded, often called girl snooze. This might be because of the sweetness and flavoring and the fact that they don't discolor the teeth or generate brown spit the way that real snooze does. So that was really helpful.

[A]

Maybe Erica Kirk can get in on this in a few years time. Right?

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. Well, they're, they're. Yeah, I think, I don't. I think they would, I think her teeth would be fine with, with. Because the pouches are very white and gleaming and they look like they clean.

[D]

Yeah, well, a moment ago I mentioned the culture wars, but the reality is the most hype that you hear about nicotine is coming from the right. Which brings us to Tucker Carlson, who was featured in a Forbes puff piece that was basically a marketing vehicle for own brand of nicotine pouches called alp. He did it to compete against Zinn, which he previously consumed. When he was talking about it on air, Carlson was contacted by Zinn's owner, Philip Morris International, who asked him to stop promoting their pouches because he was spreading misinformation about nicotine's health effects. Carlson said it cured erectile dysfunction. On Theo Vaughn's podcast. This is like a corkboard here of everything going on. But yeah, Carlson later claim that this was a joke and if you watch it, he does seem to be joking about it. But Philip Morris contacts influencers regularly asking them to not talk about their product. Which isn't so much an act of benevolence as much as what, a few, what few regulations the US government still enforces. And Philip Morris does not want the grief from the fda. Doubtful he'll get it right now considering Kennedy is a fan of Zinn. But Carlson decided to make a non political pouch. That still seems pretty political to me.

[B]

And I just want to be clear. I'm not making a political pitch on behalf of alp. I'm not saying if you vote for this candidate, this is the product for you. I'm saying if you don't want politics in your mouth in the first place, you don't want to Lecture from somebody in the HR department. You don't want to buy a product. It's like super connected. Some political party. Either one, in the case of Zenith, the Democratic Party party, but it could be the Republican party. I'm just not into it.

[D]

I just.

[B]

How about a non political nicotine pouch and you can consume that with your non political beer and then get in your non political car and drive to your non political house and just like live a normal life and like laugh at boner jokes once in a while. It's okay. That's what I want.

[D]

I find it exceptionally rich that a man who's built his career in partisan politics is pretending to want nonpartisan anything. Plus he's boosted some of the worst pseudoscience grifters and is partly responsible for getting RFK Jr to go MAGA along with Cali Means, who he let spread so much misinformation on his podcast about a year and a half ago.

[B]

Isn't. Isn't the real sort of cure for erectile dysfunction for Tucker Carlson not getting attacked by demon wolves in his sleep though? Like when that, when that stops. Cops isn't. Don't things just come back to normal? I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, totally. And this is, I have to say, one of my favorite of Tucker's multiple personalities. Like, he's just a sincere, like his voice goes up a little bit. Right? He's just a sincere, normal guy. He wants to laugh at boner jokes and he wants to not be forced by liberals to make everything political. Meanwhile, one of the reasons he turned against Zinn is that apparently they endorse Kamala in the last election. And he says you can, you can have it with your non, non political beer. As if like that whole thing with the shooting of, you know, whole cases of beers didn't happen because of the. The trans influencer that was used in a commercial.

[B]

Right.

[D]

This morning. Mallory, we're recording. On Tuesday, you posted something by Paul Saladino, who he mentioned a moment ago, and I've noticed this is a trend in Maha, and he's basically saying health is not political. Airport gyms are good. They're for the Everyman. Like, let's not make this political. And he even said something what to the effect of like, like children are bipartisan.

[C]

Yeah, he said no. He said there's no such thing as Democratic or Republican children. And then he went on to talk about access to certain things, but it was all prompted by this idea of putting gyms in airports. I posted it to Threads and somebody responded, it's probably my favorite response. Do they think chronically ill kids are frequent flyers? And I'm just, yeah, it's, it's bananas, right?

[D]

Because I've made the point before that how few Americans even have passports. And some people have replied being like, like, yeah, a lot of us can't travel. We can't afford to. So which is a fair point. And so for Saladino to say that, to not address the fact that as of Thursday, the day we're releasing this, the US Is no longer cooperating with the who, the World Health Organization, talking about access, international access, which Saladina was saying, considering that millions of Americans are either losing health insurance or paying ridiculously more starting this week, those are access issues. The pull up bars in airport is not. And we're seeing this with the nicotine where, you know, Taco's basically saying you don't need to be left, right or center to consume them. Which is true. But that's not what this is about right now. One party has latched on to health misinformation more than the other. Nicotine, like beef and cars, is an inherently political symbol due to its relationship with tobacco. And the main marketing vehicle for that product was for generations a cowboy, as you mentioned. Mallory, the artist clip that we ran is from Alex Clark's show. As you mentioned, she's on TP USA. She also recently spoke at the Turning Point AmFest 2025 conference that Julian and I covered this past weekend. For our brief, she opens her speech by saying that she's the top health and wellness podcaster from a conservative ang goal, which is just. The Maha movement isn't a conservative movement, it's an activist one. Their activism just happens to align with pro capitalist deregulatory agenda that Heritage foundation baked into Project 2025, which wants to see as few regulations as possible and as many healthcare services be thrust into the private market. Maha is just a Trojan horse for that agenda. And you can plainly see it when they market products as is being indicative of individual liberty, which is very much the nicotine message that Tucker was promoted. And then on the flip side, they all have products to sell. Carlson has cleaner nicotine, Clark the dozens of products she shows after hosting anti vaxxers, anti seed oil stands, and of course pro nicotine influencers. Because no matter what they're trying to say, I mean, look at it this way, they are in power right now. Now meaning the right, meaning Maha, meaning Kennedy, but they're not actually accomplishing anything for actual public health or for people who need it. The Most so they have to do marketing like this. Health is always going to be political. We can separate nicotine the potential therapeutic effects that has a track record of helping people with smoking cessations from the sorts of health claims and symbols of personal freedom freedom that Maga and Maha represent. I just don't think they can do it.

[C]

Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing, to selling and beyond. Shopify can help with everything you need, you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into sign up for your $1 per month [e-mail] specialoffer I.

[E]

Have never felt so much clarity in my life. Mental clarity, mental sharpness. I do not feel any type of dependency. I set cycle these. I don't use them every single day, but when I do use them, like I said, I use a very low dose and I wear them during the day, I don't even wear them at night. And I personally notice such a difference not only in mental clarity, but even in like my joints as well. I wouldn't say I have joint issues, but I definitely have like a knee that gives me problems when I work out. I have not had any issues since.

[B]

You know, we heard from, I think the first clip that we listened to Mallory that I think the woman said something like if I feel low in the afternoon, it sort of gets me through the rest of the day. I mean people, they're talking about having a buzz. And what I find is that there's always this contradiction playing out in Maha over pleasure versus taboo. Their enemies are the nerdy hall monitor killjoy, real scientists. And then on their team they have the free, liberated and pleasure seeking optimization bros who know how to break all the rules. They know how to transgress or disrupt norms and systems. They are hackers, right? And for them, the result of breaking rules is fitness and vitality and freedom. But that's all of course tied up with the exhilaration of saying fuck you to, you know, slobs like Peter Hotez and his stupid little bow tie.

[A]

There was a really interesting word she used in there too, which is that she cycles them. Yeah, And I've only ever heard bodybuilders who take performance enhancing drugs talking about cycling on and off of different substances that give them an edge, right. That I thought that was really interesting. I've never heard that from a wellness person.

[B]

Yeah. What I hear going on here is that if nicotine becomes a kind of vitality enhancer, they are taking something taboo and they're making it into a virtue. And this is happening in many different sort of zones with various levels of ick involved. Like, we see it happen with raw milk, we see it happen with urine therapy, we see it with RFK swimming in shitty water. And he himself, he's like the embodiment of all of it, because he's the probably not recovered addict who breaks every moral and hygiene and epistemological rule in pursuit of something that he presents as being common sense. But actually he is also performing as a transcendent vital.

[A]

Cutting it in half the seven milligrams and then cutting that little piece in four and then starting with that dose.

[B]

But yes, children could do it also.

[A]

However, we know that children have less.

[B]

Possibility of being affected by the SARS CoV2 virus. Right.

[A]

So this is my thoughts and others.

[B]

It's not really been shown clinically or studied, so maybe they should get tested. We have several patients who are, I guess they're still kids. They're, you know, 18, 20 year olds, and they have a high level of spike protein and they're very symptomatic. And the nicotine patch has helped them significantly.

[C]

Listeners, you just heard from Carly Shenkman, a wellness influencer who I actually covered in a previous episode this year about Kangen water and cancer claims she's interviewing Dr. Tony Jimenez, who is the founder of Hope4Cancer, an integrative cancer clinic in Mexico. The episode is titled A Root Cause Approach to Cancer, but near the end, they drift into a Covid and vaccine conversation that sparks a bit of a nicotine interlude. The conversation mostly focuses on Covid and nicotine's alleged ability to dislodge and detox spike proteins.

[A]

Oh, my God, it's so meta. It's the cure not only for the illnesses, but also for the actual medicines that treat and prevent the illnesses. This is genius. And then also, I have to say here in the clip, that whole thing of about cutting up the patches to get kids started young is wild to me because I just kept feeling like I was hearing a drug dealer.

[D]

Also, spike proteins are like another version of turbo cancer. It's. It's not a thing. Well, turbo cancer actually isn't a thing. That's completely invented. Spike proteins, if you don't have COVID 19, if you don't have influenza, you don't have spike proteins in your body unless you have something like HIV which then they will circulate but the general person does not have spike proteins floating around in their body.

[C]

Well I'd love to hear you debate Carly on that because she thinks otherwise. Dr. Tony does recommend a specific brand of nicotine patches and while Carly says she'll link it, it doesn't appear to be in the show notes. So I looked it up and the brand that he recommends does describe itself on the front of the box as a stop smoking aid. So why the fuck is he recommending it for children? I also found it funny that in the Facebook post promoting the episode where the audio has actually since been muted, the caption describes these brands as clean versions, chemical additives which guys they're talking about nicotine. So while Dr. Tony's nicotine for Kids mentioned focused on elements of COVID you can bet there are nicotine for Kids claims that go far beyond that. Chiropractor Brian Ardus yes, we're going to talk about him again because like I said, he really seems to be the root cause of all of this. He has claimed that nicotine can be used in some fashion to treat autism and separately has also claimed he be perfectly comfortable with put putting a nicotine patch on a kid.

[A]

So I'm about to teach something else you may not know. Sure, I'm open. So I just mentioned a whole bunch of medical conditions that are improved with nicotine or prevented or cured and published to do so. Did you know that autism traits? Yeah, they've already investigated nicotine patches between the shoulder blades of all children and adults and within seven days they see improvements in all their symptoms.

[C]

This past August in the Autism Awareness for Parents and Family Support Facebook group, a member post hi, I have a 10 year old daughter with a diagnosis of autism, ADHD, anxiety, depression and learning disorder. Lately, especially since school has started, she has been eloping, self harming, been aggressive. She also has been very fixated on me and not wanting anyone near me. Her moods go from okay to extremely bad quickly and often without warnings. A friend recommended nicotine patches and that they helped her autistic grandson. Has anyone else heard of this? Any insight?

[B]

As a parent of an autistic kid, I want to pick out a couple of things here, the commenter says. Especially since school has started and then very fixated on me and not wanting anyone near me. Now to my eye, if I can just play the whisperer a little bit, this is the description of a kid who doesn't feel socially safe There might be sensory issues, social cue, overwhelm realm, a general and persistent feeling that tolerating what might seem like a normal environment or an environment you assume the kid could adapt to is just too much. And, you know, the autistic kid might be doing something called masking, or making their best guess as to how to orient their bodies and affects and facial expressions and speech in socially acceptable ways. And that can be exhausting beyond belief. And from what I've seen in the literature and the communities we look to for support, the depression and anxiety and learning challenges are often seen as downstream effects from that social and sensory stress. So the hopeful part about this comment, and this is why I find it so tragic that it shows up in this dialogue and then the person gets, you know, it's a discourse about nicotine patches, is that the kid is glued to the parent. And to me that this suggests that the kid knows where they will find relief, at least, least now. And the kicker is that the parent is also indicating that that's part of the problem. And it can be a problem based on the expectations we have for kids having to attend school so that parents can work. Like, it could be that this parent can't even consider the financial burden of staying home now. And we're quoting this to see how folks respond to the nicotine question. But this parent, I think, could be asking about anything that we cover on this podcast. Hydrotherapy, essential oils, cupping, because they're looking for anything to resolve a contradiction. The kid needs them, at least for now, as their safe person. And the parent probably doesn't live in a society in which they can go on. Some go to someone and say, I need to stay home now and care for this dependent, and I'd like to apply for that caregiving income supplement, because, I mean, the culture knows enough about autism to diagnose, but at this point, but not enough about how to accommodate what autism means for and demands of kids and their families. So it's just really shitty that this parent is reaching out for wellness grift advice. I do have to note that if the primary motivation is to get the kid back to school so that the household can return to normal, that that impulse is going to be parallel to the common pediatric priority of getting kids back to school. And so, you know, here's this panicked comment coming in. And I think a lot of these comments from the parents of autistic kids really are rooted in this time and economic pressure issue of considering staying home. And the irony is that any touted miracle fix or Like a patch that this person's going to get advised on might just displace this deeper need for personal care and then kick the stress can down the road. And that's super weird because this is a movement that is always talking about root causes and getting down to the foundations and really building health from the bottom up. And you know, now we're going to be talking about nicotine patches for something as complex as autism.

[C]

Yes. And on that post, just to talk about the comments that were left, while there were comments of support and folks encouraging her to actually just talk to a doctor, there were also comments like this. Yes, I have heard about it from Dr. Brian Ardus. Related Nicotine patch placed between shoulder blades on autistic children for seven days all showed improvement. I don't know the doctor dose yet, but I follow Dr. Artist and have his book Nicotine is not Addictive. No worry there it is the additive pyrazines that make tobacco products addictive. Listen to Dr. Artist podcast to learn more about this miracle substance that sounds like it was.

[B]

Written by Dr. Artisai Bot.

[D]

Also, just to play off what wellness influencers always like to say, autism is not a nicotine deficiency.

[C]

Derek, you're just playing in their game. Now there's also this comment and I might edit it just to make it readable. Doctors do not have the answers. In fact, all they want to do is sell drugs. Drugs with serious side effects and the cycle goes on and on. Diet is very important. Kindness and love is everything. Nicotine patches have great reviews.

[B]

You know, it's almost there, right? Like that middle part. Kindness and love is everything. But also get the nicotine patches.

[C]

But then they went into nicotine territory. Yeah. So a more dissenting comment Read nicotine patches, question mark, exclamation mark. That's what happens when you listen to grandma. She'll get you felony charges. Ask your pediatrician. Which, whether the commenter realized it or not, is actually already a heartbreakingly true story. El Paso county grandmother who tried to use nicotine patches to cure her grandson's autism. Looks like she will avoid jail time after making a plea agreement. Tammy Eddings Dion was arrested in April after police deputies, I should say say she put multiple nicotine patches on her four year old grandson to try and cure his autism. Those patches made him sick, sending him to the hospital and triggering an investigation into possible child abuse.

[B]

Eddings Dion pleaded guilty to those charges.

[C]

She's not sentenced to three years probation and 40 hours of community service.

[A]

Now I feel terrible that I was laughing at that last comment. This is awful. And it underlines the understandable, dangerous logic that can emerge from medical misinformation. I mean, if it's a seven day cure, perhaps she thought increasing the dose would fix the autism in a shorter amount of time.

[C]

Who's to say? And who's to say where she even got that information? But my apologies once again for any ending this on the shittiest note. I just want to make sure I'm still invited back next year.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

Cool. Okay. Well, as we enter into the new year, I can't help but wonder what kind of wellness hacks they will come up with next.