Bonus Sample: Kelly Brogan’s Divine Dungeon: Pt 2 (feat/Esme Providence Brown)

Summary

Conspirituality Podcast Summary

Episode: Bonus Sample: Kelly Brogan’s Divine Dungeon: Pt 2 (feat. Esme Providence Brown)
Hosts: Derek Beres, Matthew Remski, Julian Walker
Guests: Esme Providence Brown
Release Date: February 3, 2025

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Introduction

In this bonus episode of Conspirituality, hosts Matthew Remski and Esme Providence Brown delve deeper into the complex narrative surrounding Kelly Brogan’s Divine Dungeon. The discussion aims to unravel Brogan’s journey from a neoliberal spiritual influencer to a figure entangled in controversial therapeutic practices, particularly focusing on her foray into the BDSM community.

Mapping Kelly Brogan’s Evolution

Matthew Remski initiates the conversation by summarizing their previous discussions on Kelly Brogan’s trajectory. He outlines how Brogan transitioned into deregulated couples therapy and pseudo sex therapy, leveraging her medical expertise to build a substantial platform. Remski highlights the perplexing nature of Brogan’s rapid ascension into the BDSM world without substantial preparation or education.

Notable Quote:

Matthew Remski [01:43]: "We're going to talk about how Kelly Brogan moved very clearly, very strangely, very enthusiastically, but I would also say without a lot of preparation or education into the world of BDSM."

Esme Providence Brown on BDSM’s Unregulated Space

Esme Providence Brown provides critical insights into the BDSM community, emphasizing its unregulated yet intrinsically rich and complex nature. She underscores the importance of understanding the protocols, philosophies, and evolving practices within BDSM, which are often cultivated through peer-to-peer learning rather than formal education.

Notable Quote:

Esme Providence Brown [02:43]: "There is a beauty and a risk to the nature of it being an unregulated space... one really needs to spend some time, you know, in that community and understand... the underlying philosophies."

Critique of Kelly Brogan’s Approach

The hosts critique Kelly Brogan’s involvement in BDSM, particularly her promotion of pole dancing as a means of sexual expression. Esme points out that while pole dancing can be a legitimate form of self-expression, Brogan’s portrayal oversimplifies the physical and legal complexities involved, thereby undermining the labor and risks associated with it.

Notable Quote:

Esme Providence Brown [02:55]: "Brogan gets really involved in pole dancing as something that... she's found as a form of expressing her sexuality. And nothing in and of itself I don't think is problematic... what starts to become a little sort of dodgy is when she's starting to present this as a form of anybody finding their sexuality."

Influencer Responsibility and Humility

Matthew Remski addresses the broader issue of influencers entering specialized communities without adequate expertise. He stresses the necessity for humility and genuine understanding before presenting oneself as an authority, especially in sensitive areas like BDSM and therapeutic practices.

Notable Quote:

Matthew Remski [02:43]: "Perhaps as an influencer, you don't pretend you're a fucking expert at something because you got interested in it last week."

Esme Providence Brown [02:51]: "That's a good start. A little bit of humility, I guess, maybe."

Accessibility and Inclusivity in Pole Dancing

The conversation shifts to the accessibility of pole dancing as a form of self-liberation. Esme highlights the absence of accessible classes for individuals who may face physical challenges, pointing out the ableist barriers that restrict broader participation and perpetuate exclusivity within wellness spaces.

Notable Quote:

Matthew Remski [04:55]: "I haven't seen an accessible pole dancing class advertised anywhere. Maybe they exist for people who might not find the physical challenges of pole dancing to be anything that they can accomplish."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a critical examination of how Kelly Brogan’s assimilation into the BDSM community exemplifies the dangers of influencers co-opting specialized practices without requisite knowledge or respect for the community’s complexities. Hosts Remski and Brown underscore the importance of authenticity, education, and humility in combating the rise of conspirituality that threatens to dilute meaningful spiritual and wellness practices.

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For listeners eager to explore more in-depth analyses and discussions, Conspirituality invites you to visit patreon.com/conspirituality for access to exclusive content and bonus episodes.

Transcript

[Matthew Remsky]

Hello, everyone. Welcome to Conspirituality, where we investigate the intersections of conspiracy theories and spiritual influence to uncover cults, pseudoscience, and authoritarian extremism. Also pseudotherapy, and also BDSM that isn't bdsm, and also sex work that isn't really sex work. I'm Matthew Remsky, and joining me today again is Esme Providence Brown. Hello.

[Esme Providence Brown]

Hello.

[Matthew Remsky]

Our correspondent from the world of sex work and social justice. Thanks so much for coming back. We had a lot to talk about last time, and we're going to finish up today.

[Esme Providence Brown]

Yeah, we really went into some deep.

[Matthew Remsky]

Pockets there, and I think for listeners, it would be good if you started with our first volley on Kelly Brogan's Divine Dungeon, because we mapped out, not in, like, a strictly chronological format, but we mapped out the progression of her neoliberal, you know, sainthood story, ascension into completely deregulated couples therapy, and now pseudo sex therapy coming out of her. The medical expertise that allowed her to have a platform to begin with. We're going to be talking about how Kelly Brogan moved very clearly, very strangely, very enthusiastically, but I would also say without a lot of preparation or education into the world of bdsm. So you're. You're our expert there, Esme. Where would you. Where would you like to start?

[Esme Providence Brown]

I mean, the first thing I want to say about the sort of world of BDSM as a kind of unregulated space is that there is a. There is a beauty and a risk to the nature of it being an unregulated space. Like, it is not a space that has. You know, we don't. We don't have, like, our books that are published and we don't go through certification processes. And like, so many things that come up in the pod, like, this is a. This is a grassroots community that has been built up, and it's a lot of peer to peer learning. The barriers to entry are, I would say, porous. Having said that, I think that in order for someone to really understand, like, what is kink and BDSM practice that is constantly evolving, one really needs to spend some time, you know, in that community and understand, like, the protocols of the kind of philosophies, the underlying.

[Matthew Remsky]

Perhaps as an influencer, you don't pretend you're a fucking expert at something because you got interested in it last week.

[Esme Providence Brown]

That's a good start. A little bit of humility, I guess, maybe.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah. Okay, so it starts with pole dancing, right?

[Esme Providence Brown]

It starts with pole dancing. Brogan gets really involved in pole dancing as Something that, you know, she's, she's found as a, as a form of expressing her sexuality. And nothing in and of itself I don't think is problematic. What, what, what starts to become a little sort of dodgy is when she's starting to present this as a form of anybody finding their sexuality vis a vis this kind of like, person, performative gesture. And then without acknowledging that pole dancing is a form of labor that is performed by people and it is risky, challenging, oftentimes, you know, has a legal implication. And so, yeah, that's, that's really where it starts to get a problem for me.

[Matthew Remsky]

We did a great couple of episodes with a woman named Jessica Hopper who was, was in the poll community. What was her name? S factor.

[Esme Providence Brown]

S factor.

[Matthew Remsky]

S factor, yes. Yeah. And so she had fantastic memoir data, but then also a lot of wonderful analysis that came out of that. I also want to just flag that it seems that pole dancing as a form of self liberation involving one's blossoming sexuality. I haven't seen an accessible pole dancing class advertised anywhere. Maybe they exist for people who might not find the physical challenges of pole dancing to be anything that they can accomplish. There's an ableist kind of set of demands going on there that intersect with a lot of the assumptions that are made about how people access wellness. The spaces to begin with.

[Unknown]

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