Brief: Antifascist Woodshed 2 (Punching Nazis?)

Summary

Conspirituality Podcast – Episode Summary: "Brief: Antifascist Woodshed 2 (Punching Nazis?)"

Release Date: March 15, 2025
Hosts: Derek Beres, Matthew Remski, Julian Walker
Episode Title: Brief: Antifascist Woodshed 2 (Punching Nazis?)

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of the Conspirituality Podcast, hosts Derek Beres and Julian Walker delve into the intricate relationship between antifascist actions and the broader landscape of conspiracy theories intertwined with spiritual influences. Titled "Brief: Antifascist Woodshed 2 (Punching Nazis?),” the episode serves as the second installment in a two-part series exploring the complexities of anti-fascist movements, particularly focusing on the morality and effectiveness of violent versus nonviolent resistance.

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Viral Moment: The Punching Nazi Clip

Timestamp: [02:24] – [03:32]

The episode opens with a discussion about a viral Instagram clip featuring comedian Peyton Vannis, also known as "Vanny," which amassed over 5 million views in just five days despite Vanny not being a major influencer. The clip humorously yet provocatively depicts Vanny contemplating actions against Nazis, raising taboo questions about self-defense and resistance in oppressive systems.

Key Points:

• Viral Nature: The clip’s rapid spread underscores society’s fascination with and discomfort around the concept of physical confrontation with fascists.
• Underlying Questions: It probes viewers to consider how far they would go in self-defense and the moral implications of violent resistance.

Notable Quote:

• Julian Walker: "This isn't a huge account. And I think it's funny and uncomfortable and viral because it's poking at a bunch of swollen hanging taboo questions and private thoughts like how far would I go in self defense or to secure justice in an oppressive system?" [04:30]

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Antifascist Strategies: Violence vs. Nonviolence

Timestamp: [07:01] – [10:14]

Derek introduces the episode’s central theme: the ongoing debate within antifascist movements about the use of violence versus nonviolence. He emphasizes the necessity of defining these terms clearly to separate moral arguments from strategic ones.

Key Points:

• Historical Context: References to past antifascist actions, from the coal wars to modern protests, highlight the enduring presence of violence in resistance movements.
• Philosophical Foundations: The discussion incorporates insights from thinkers like Natasha Leonard, Mark Bray, Michael Stone, and Kwame Ture, examining how these philosophies inform current antifascist tactics.

Notable Quote:

• Julian Walker: "The piety that is expected of us all...how piety turns to appeasement when the White House calls Representative Al Green's...shouting protest at the speech, [quote] the most disgraceful moment in the history of presidential addresses." [05:53]

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Case Study: Inauguration Day Punch

Timestamp: [20:30] – [30:26]

A significant portion of the episode analyzes the infamous moment when a black bloc antifascist protester punched Richard Spencer, a prominent figure in the alt-right movement, during the 2017 inauguration. This act became a symbol of kinetic antifascist action, sparking widespread debate.

Key Points:

• Media Framing: Mainstream media often trivialized the act by reducing it to questions of incivility and free speech, overshadowing the deeper motivations and implications of such resistance.
• Demonization and Chilling Effects: The portrayal led to policy proposals labeling such actions as domestic terrorism, thereby discouraging community-based resistance efforts.

Notable Quotes:

• Amer Rahman: "If you punch a Nazi, it doesn't make you as bad as one. You know what we should do with Nazis? We should debate them...Fucking Narnia." [25:06]
• Mark Bray (via Randy Cohen): "Anti fascist violence is interpreted as superficially as possible...advocating following Gandhi's example or King's example, without resorting to the gutter tactics of people like Spencer." [26:37]

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Philosophical and Historical Perspectives on Resistance

Timestamp: [32:30] – [39:59]

The hosts delve into the philosophical underpinnings of antifascist resistance, referencing influential figures such as Kwame Ture and Frantz Fanon. They explore how historical contexts shape contemporary tactics and the importance of understanding the power dynamics involved in labeling violence.

Key Points:

• Kwame Ture's Analysis: Ture critiques the liberal approach to violence, highlighting the double standards in how violence is perceived based on the perpetrator’s power and societal status.
• Frantz Fanon's Views: Fanon’s writings on the necessity of violence in decolonization movements are examined, emphasizing violence as a tool for restoring dignity and combating oppression.
• Nonviolent Imperative: The episode critically assesses the limitations of strictly nonviolent approaches, arguing that they may be insufficient in the face of pervasive and organized fascist violence.

Notable Quotes:

• Kwame Ture: "It's not a question of whether it's right to kill or it is wrong to kill. Killing goes on...my violence is not legalized because Africans living in Washington D.C. do not have the power to legalize their violence." [37:31]
• Frantz Fanon: "Forceful resistance and self-defense as a potentially liberating energy freeing the oppressed person from inferiority, despair and inaction." [39:22]

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Media and Public Reaction

Timestamp: [30:26] – [38:57]

The episode critiques how media and public discourse often simplify and misrepresent antifascist actions, reducing complex resistance strategies to meme-able moments that strip away their substantive context and purpose.

Key Points:

• Memeification: Viral clips and social media snippets can distort the gravity of antifascist actions, making them appear superficial or laughable.
• Public Misconceptions: Simplistic portrayals lead to misunderstandings about the motivations and effectiveness of antifascist resistance, undermining serious discussion and strategic planning.

Notable Quote:

• Julian Walker: "It reduced the moment down to, you know, a question of what would Gandhi do? A consideration of the ethics of the punch and of the right of Richard Spencer to not get punched." [27:46]

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Conclusion and Next Steps

Timestamp: [42:04] – End

The episode concludes by setting the stage for Part Two of the "Antifascist Woodshed" series, which will delve deeper into the definitions and tactical debates within antifascist movements. The hosts tease discussions on how antifascist direct action and mutual aid are interconnected, referencing films like "How to Blow Up a Pipeline" and Ken Loach’s "Land and Freedom."

Key Points:

• Upcoming Topics: Exploration of full-spectrum resistance, including armed and unarmed violent resistance, and their roles in combating fascism.
• Integrative Approaches: Emphasis on the inseparability of direct action and mutual aid in effective antifascist strategies.

Notable Quote:

• Derek Beres: "What are we really talking about when we use the terms violence and nonviolence? How opposed are they really? This is a crucial question because everything I've explored so far has only really excavated the cloudy morality and psychology of the issue to get down to this level." [41:56]

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Final Thoughts

"Brief: Antifascist Woodshed 2 (Punching Nazis?)" offers a nuanced exploration of the ethical and strategic dimensions of antifascist resistance. By dissecting viral moments, media portrayals, and philosophical arguments, Derek and Julian provide listeners with a deeper understanding of the challenges and complexities inherent in combating fascism within the modern sociopolitical landscape.

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For Those Interested in Part Two: Make sure to follow Conspirituality on various platforms and support their Patreon to access the upcoming detailed analysis set to release on March 17, 2025.

Transcript

[Julian]

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[Derek]

Hello everybody. This is Conspirituality, where we investigate the.

[Julian]

Intersections of conspiracy theories and spiritual influence.

[Derek]

To uncover cults, pseudoscience and authoritarian extremism. In other words, your daily news feed. You can follow myself, Derek and Julian.

[Julian]

On Blue sky and we're still on.

[Derek]

Twitter as it circles the drain.

[Julian]

The pod is on Instagram and threads.

[Derek]

Under its own handle. And please support our Patreon and the.

[Julian]

Patreons of all the independent media outlets you value and can afford to support.

[Derek]

I think this is really the time to do it because state repression is just getting going. FBI Director Kash Patel has openly vowed to target journalists. The DHS just blackvanned pro Palestinian protest.

[Julian]

Organizer and green card holder Mahmoud Khalil right out of a Columbia campus residence.

[Derek]

Building to Louisiana, away from being able to meet with legal counsel and Colombia hasn't lifted a finger to protect him.

[Julian]

And as I'm writing, Trump is sounding.

[Derek]

Off about classifying the vandalism of Teslas as domestic terrorism, which can land the convicted sentences of up to 50 years in prison. So as they say, it's going down. Okay, I'm going to start with a clip, which isn't ideal for podcasting because there's a lot of visual humor in it. But we're just going to see if.

[Julian]

You know what this guy is talking about. Anyway, this is Instagram comedian Vanny or Peyton Vannis. You're not going to be able to see it, but during these long beats, he's mugging into the selfie. He's raising his eyebrows, smirking.

[Derek]

He's kind of giving the game away. He's sitting on his couch just thinking about, who knows? He's not saying, but he's hinting at something, something very bad. Maybe punching a Nazi, maybe something a little more, you know, illegal. Unless you get away with it.

[Unknown]

I'm not saying somebody should. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying anyone should. No, no, no, I'm not. Couldn't be me. You know what I mean? But if someone was. If someone was going. I'm kidding, Don't. I'm completely joking. Nobody should. Nobody should. You shouldn't. I shouldn't. Nobody should. Nobody should. That's all I've got to say. That's all I have to say. Just nobody. Nobody should. And I'm. And I've said that no one should. Very publicly right now, actually, I've said that nobody should. Nobody should. Because nobody's going to. Because nobody should.

[Derek]

It got 5 million views in the first five days, and this isn't a huge account. And I think it's funny and uncomfortable and viral because it's poking at a bunch of swollen hanging taboo questions and private thoughts like how far would I go in self defense or to secure justice in an oppressive system? Because the question of the role of disobedience, force, sabotage, property damage during demonstrations and violent resistance in terms of morality and strategy and effectiveness is on a.

[Julian]

Lot of people's minds right now. Maybe it never cleared.

[Derek]

Like the smoke over the George Floyd protests, it came to the fore around.

[Julian]

Militarized crackdowns on the pro Palestinian encampment protesters. And it burned bright in the wake.

[Derek]

Of the assassination of Brian Thompson, allegedly by Luigi Mangione. Today it's also showing up in the we're gonna need a bigger Luigi jokes. So in this long shadow, Peyton is.

[Julian]

Taking the piss out of the piety.

[Derek]

That the commitment to civility demands we maintain, no matter what's going down around us.

[Julian]

The piety that freezes people in their.

[Derek]

Seats as Dr. Therese Borenfall is dragged out of a Coeur d'alene town hall by unidentified thugs. The piety that expects us all to.

[Julian]

Watch all but one congressional Democrat watch Trump give a straight up fascist speech and keep their mouths shut or at.

[Derek]

Most wave little auctioneer paddles because party whips counseled them to be dignified. And how piety turns to appeasement when the White House calls Representative Al Green's.

[Julian]

Shouting protest at the speech, quote, the.

[Derek]

Most disgraceful moment in the history of presidential addresses.

[Julian]

And 10 of his Democrat colleagues agree.

[Derek]

By joining the GOP to vote for his censure. So Peyton is saying almost nothing in this gag. And yet the top rated comment on that Instagram reel is how on God's greed earth did I know exactly what you were saying?

[Julian]

And that's currently at over 100,000 likes.

[Derek]

So today's brief is the first of a two part study that and it's called Anti Fascist Woodshed 2 Punching Nazis with a question mark. And it focuses on how many people know exactly what Peyton's saying but may.

[Julian]

Not have the tools to really evaluate feelings of rage and thoughts of resistance.

[Derek]

Whether they're violent or otherwise, and how.

[Julian]

They might make sense and how when.

[Derek]

We think about violence and nonviolence, we.

[Julian]

Can separate moral arguments from strategic arguments, but only when we actually define the terms.

[Derek]

Now, part two and I had to break this up because there's a lot here will drop on Patreon on Monday. So that's in two days. So I'm following up on the first woodshed installment on February 22, which reviewed some key books on antifascist history, action and advice. At the top of that episode I said I'd be continuing the series with.

[Julian]

More diverse sources and topics, all in.

[Derek]

The hope of providing some regular breath.

[Julian]

And reflection space in parallel to the.

[Derek]

Shitstorm of our news feeds. The premise of this short series, not sure how long it'll be, is that.

[Julian]

Yes, we've entered a fascist era, but we're not alone in this experience.

[Derek]

Many have gone before us and that.

[Julian]

Means we can be shocked but not unprepared as the veneer of liberal democracy.

[Derek]

Is peeled away to reveal the raw.

[Julian]

Power relations that now run our politics.

[Derek]

Mask off the beating heart of that power is violence. And so I wanted to address the.

[Julian]

Question of how anti fascists understand and respond to violence in the street and in the structures around them, and why even the most symbolic and non military.

[Derek]

Gestures like single punches of Nazis in their faces have become distracting subjects of moral hand wringing. So this two parter will do a few things. It'll dispel some conspiratorial type thinking about the identities and methods of antifascists. It'll present a slice of the rich.

[Julian]

Discourse on violence and nonviolence from anti.

[Derek]

Fascist history, including some clarifying definitions of key terms. But also, I just want to put.

[Julian]

It out there that in the weeks.

[Derek]

And years to come, I think everyone is going to have to think carefully.

[Julian]

About what intensities of self and community.

[Derek]

Defense are both useful and tolerable in.

[Julian]

The fight against fascism.

[Derek]

And I'm not just talking about the risk of facing off against Patriot Front.

[Julian]

In the street or getting arrested at.

[Derek]

A Tesla dealership because not everyone can do that. Not everybody wants to do that.

[Julian]

That's not right for everyone.

[Derek]

I'm also talking about the decisions we make about who we are going to support and how in these episodes I'll.

[Julian]

Be citing and linking to thoughts from.

[Derek]

Natasha Leonard, Mark Bray, Michael Stone, Kwame Ture, Frantz Fanon, Jean Amerie, Eric McBay.

[Julian]

Ken Loach and Ben Case's work on the false binary between violent and nonviolent protest and the problems with the research.

[Derek]

Of Jean Sharp, Erica Chenoweth and Marya Steffen. So this won't be like the previous tour through six texts, which was pretty straightforward. Like this is what I think of these three books, these six books rather. But I have to take this theme by theme instead. And the spoiler is that there are no easy answers, down to the fact that when people say the word violence.

[Julian]

They usually aren't defining the term even to themselves.

[Derek]

Anti fascists have to cut through that clearly, but it doesn't happen without disagreement. So we have a lot of thoughtful and passionate people thinking and arguing and working things out with a shared conviction that fascism is intolerable and must be stopped. Now, breaking up the themes into the two parts. Today's part will focus more on the background philosophical and psychological issues at play in nonviolence discourse.

[Julian]

And then the second part will 0.

[Derek]

In on how antifascists debate over definitions and tactics. So on this philosophy and psychology note.

[Julian]

We should ask, or we could ask.

[Derek]

Why is this a conspirituality topic? So long time listeners. Hello out there. Thank you so much.

[Julian]

You will know that we have always looked at the ways in which spirituality.

[Derek]

And wellness run, cover and provide blessing for movements ranging from the reactionary to the fascists. We have covered New Agers leafing through A Course in Miracles and the Tarot for evidence that Donald Trump is a lightworker.

[Julian]

We've seen their evil QAnon twins pour through the garbage heaps of social media.

[Derek]

For signs of a divine wrathful apocalypse.

[Julian]

Maha mamas say that sound vibrations work.

[Derek]

Better than vaccines and don't contain all the poisons. Trad caths say that tradwifery will bring.

[Julian]

The hormones of the universe back into balance.

[Derek]

And the biohacking bros, they scarf down.

[Julian]

Rotting raw chicken and they share on.

[Derek]

Instagram that their chronic diarrhea is a cleansing practice. It's a lot of displacements and cover ups. It's a lot of lipstick on a lot of pigs. But a key analytical framework we've used.

[Julian]

Along the way to understand these contradictions.

[Derek]

Is from psychologist John Wellwood and his concept of spiritual bypassing, which is the.

[Julian]

Usage of spiritual ideology to prematurely and superficially resolve conflicts.

[Derek]

So this is the practice of using.

[Julian]

Spirituality to withdraw from material conditions and responsibilities.

[Derek]

And it might look like pro Trump.

[Julian]

Evangelical farmers swaying in prayer as they.

[Derek]

Hope that the cuts in USAID don't really go through. In left ish spaces, it looks like people doing excessive amounts of yoga in.

[Julian]

The fervent belief that their inner peace will somehow be the change they want to see in the world.

[Derek]

I'll come back to that now. Previously I've coined a version of this that I call political bypassing. And it can have a deep faith.

[Julian]

Based root in the need to maintain a genteel or noble self perception. And I think it will do whatever it can to bolster the belief that for instance, liberal democracy is thriving, that.

[Derek]

Capitalism can function well, that the green economy is on track to save us all, that fascism is an aberrant psychopathology.

[Julian]

And not the logical outcome of capitalism.

[Derek]

And that American exceptionalism is reasonable.

[Julian]

Deep down. The political bypasser believes that we are a moral and good people.

[Derek]

They get rolled by the Harris campaign.

[Julian]

Stumping on the theme of joy while sending billions of dollars in munitions to support a genocide.

[Derek]

The political bypass project protests too much.

[Julian]

Saying we are not a violent society, we are not a violent society.

[Derek]

But anti fascists have always known this has never been true. They hold embodied memories of what it.

[Julian]

Means to fight corporate and state repression from the shootouts of the West Virginia coal wars and street battles in 1910.

[Derek]

General strike times in Philadelphia through to 1936 and the battle of Cable street.

[Julian]

And the International Brigades joining up in.

[Derek]

Spain to fight Francois to the Warsaw Ghetto uprising and more recently the assassination of Fred Hampton, the massacre at Kent.

[Julian]

State, the anti globalization protests of the 90s, the battle in Seattle and into the Trump era getting kettled on the.

[Derek]

J20 inauguration in 2021, and then last.

[Julian]

Spring'S militarized response under the Biden administration.

[Derek]

To pro Palestinian protesters.

[Julian]

They would argue that not remembering or.

[Derek]

Being honest about this violent history is an obstacle to understanding how to respond when the society shows its most violent face in fascism.

[Julian]

But there's another influence that isn't about naive denial or reactionary politics, but it does confuse the reality of power dynamics from inside the house of the left. And this is how the nonviolent imperative takes inspiration from Gandhi's tactics in the battle for Indian independence and the way those tactics have been framed and understood, not only politically, but culturally, through yoga and wellness and other countercultures. We can hear it in influences as.

[Derek]

Diverse as Thomas Merton, Thich Nhat Hanh.

[Julian]

And even Marianne Williamson's appeal for the founding of a federal department of peace. How many yoga classes have you been in where the teacher reads a Gandhi.

[Derek]

Quote to you while you're in corpse.

[Julian]

Pose at the end? Be the change you want to see.

[Derek]

In the world has become a mantra of pre figurative politics, expressing the wish.

[Julian]

That by maintaining an inner core of peace and equanimity, you will somehow encourage.

[Derek]

The cops to put down their batons and shields.

[Julian]

It skips over the point of confrontation and it jumps directly to the desire for it to be all worked out in the end. Now, my late friend, the Buddhism and.

[Derek]

Yoga teacher Michael Stone, really leaned into this contradiction and desired outcome. I'm going to post a link to.

[Julian]

An article he wrote back in the fall of 2010.

[Derek]

This is 15 years ago now. It was months after the previous summer's G20 protests.

[Julian]

1,118 people were arrested on June 16 and 400 were kettled for four hours at a downtown intersection during a horrible rainstorm. And then they were held in cages.

[Derek]

For overnight, and some of them even.

[Julian]

Longer without access to food or water or sanitary services.

[Derek]

The vast majority were people who had.

[Julian]

Just been marching and chanting against the hyper capitalist exploitation of expanding free trade zones.

[Derek]

Most of them were released with no charges. But 10 years later, the police settled a lawsuit with the protesters that they had brutalized, paying out $16 million. Now Michael showed up at those protests with his meditation group, but he kept a safe distance. This was fair.

[Julian]

He had his six year old with.

[Derek]

Him and members of his group.

[Julian]

They sat down to meditate in a line in full view of the street.

[Derek]

Battle and a burning police car. He also had his people take very.

[Julian]

Compelling photos of the scene, which went.

[Derek]

Up on his website to help spread the word that his group had a.

[Julian]

Commitment to the beauty of nonviolence, which.

[Derek]

He wrote in this article, is a.

[Julian]

Core precept in my own Buddhist practice. But it's not an ideology.

[Derek]

It's the power of facing what's actually.

[Julian]

Going on in each and every moment and responding as skillfully as possible. The depth of our awakening, our humanness has everything to do with how we care for others. Our sphere of awareness begins to include everything and everyone.

[Derek]

The way we respond to our circumstances.

[Julian]

Shows our commitment to non harm.

[Derek]

So Michael could always turn a phrase.

[Julian]

But things could be a little groundless.

[Derek]

As the Buddhists say. And like so many others, he tracked.

[Julian]

His values back to Gandhi's term satyagraha, which translates as seizing and holding on to the truth.

[Derek]

It was a metaphysical directive to refuse.

[Julian]

To stoop to material expressions of aggression, to allow the dignity of one's convictions and the truth to become the only meaningful weapon.

[Derek]

And for Gandhi, it was intensely prefigurative.

[Julian]

He was trying to imagine and will.

[Derek]

Into being and manifest a peaceful future nation.

[Julian]

So satyagraha is an aspiration that surges through wave after wave of the social.

[Derek]

Movements that follow him. But according to political scientist Ben Case.

[Julian]

Whose great book Street Rebellion, Resistance Beyond Violence and Nonviolence I highly recommend, and I'll be leaning on it heavily in part two on Monday, this legacy of satyagraha cashed out in the end to the idea that nonviolence is valued over political victory, since enacting violence in order to achieve a material goal would not be victory at all.

[Derek]

Now, well below the Indian independence threshold of questions of physical violence and revolutionary conflict, but likely on the way to it, we see the echo of this.

[Julian]

Philosophy, this mood in Democratic Party whips counseling members to be quiet and dignified.

[Derek]

At the State of the Union. Now it's clear that everyone is shocked.

[Julian]

And reeling under the assaults of the.

[Derek]

Trump administration, like who gets elected and goes to Washington, prepared to face the the breakdown of the electoral order. I don't blame the Democrat congresspeople who.

[Julian]

Weren'T able to muster more resistance to.

[Derek]

The address than auctioneer paddles. I mean, if they're sitting in that.

[Julian]

Chamber, they have trained themselves in compromise over an entire lifetime.

[Derek]

But I'm excluding here Rashida Tlaib and Maxwell Frost and Jasmine Crockett and a few others. But I do think that this stiff self perception of propriety and a dignified but naive faith in going high when.

[Julian]

They go low amounts to appeasement or.

[Derek]

Even defeat being preferable to risk. And setting aside the Question of whether.

[Julian]

Any civil resistance movement is successful solely through dignified nonviolence. Is this idealized and self idealizing posture effective?

[Derek]

This was the question that came out.

[Julian]

Of a famous punch to the face of a famous Nazi.

[Amer Rahman]

Neo Nazis don't love me, they kind of hate me. Actually KKK, Neo Nazi, NATO's people don't like me.

[Derek]

Are you like the hipster version of the neo Nazi movement?

[Amer Rahman]

It's Pepe's become kind of a symbol.

[Derek]

So those are some sounds from January 20, 2017. That's a black bloc antifascist protester punching.

[Julian]

Shitheel Richard Spencer hard on the side of the face.

[Derek]

Now here's a written summary of that moment which went viral. The writing was published in the Nation by anti fascist theorist Natasha Leonard. Now, she herself was at that protest.

[Julian]

In black block garb that day.

[Derek]

The puncher might have been her, we don't know, that's part of the point. But she writes, you may have seen it.

[Julian]

It's a meme now set to backing tracks of Bruce Springsteen, New Order, even.

[Derek]

A song from Hamilton.

[Julian]

The punch landed by a masked protester.

[Derek]

On inauguration day lends itself perfectly to a beat. Spencer, who states that America belongs to.

[Julian]

White men, was in the midst of telling an Australian TV crew in D.C. that he was not a neo Nazi while pointing to his neo Nazi Pepe.

[Derek]

The Frog lapel pin. A black clad figure then jumps into the frame.

[Julian]

Deus ex machina.

[Derek]

With a perfectly placed right hook to Spencer's face. The alt right poster boy stumbles away.

[Julian]

And his anonymous attacker bounds out of sight in an instant.

[Derek]

I don't know who threw the punch, but I know by his unofficial uniform that this was a member of our black bloc that day.

[Julian]

And anyone enjoying the Nazi bashing clip, and many are enjoying them, should know that they're watching.

[Derek]

Anti fascist block tactics par excellence. Pure kinetic beauty.

[Julian]

If you want to thank Spencer's puncher.

[Derek]

Thank the black bloc. Now Leonard further explains that kinetic beauty.

[Julian]

Comment, which she got a lot of.

[Derek]

Heat for, as you can imagine, saying that it's about dignity and solidarity and anonymity. That the disguised group that is confronting fascist street thugs sticks together and strikes.

[Julian]

Out when necessary on mutually agreed upon.

[Derek]

Targets and then folds back into itself.

[Julian]

And it reminds me of this.

[Derek]

Our younger kid is a huge Spider Man 2 video game player and when he got the Black Venom symbiote skin, it has this physics where if he's.

[Julian]

In a fight with a dozen gangsters.

[Derek]

He can activate a strike and a.

[Julian]

Dozen black tendrils will stake out from his spine at lightning speed and sucker.

[Derek]

Punch each one of them before retracting.

[Julian]

Back into his body.

[Derek]

The thugs are like Richard Spencer. They don't know what hit them. And the point is, they'll be wary of coming back. Now, the black bloc ideal is to.

[Julian]

Anonymously share the physical and legal burdens of community defense and make it costly for fascists to harass the vulnerable in public spaces.

[Derek]

The anonymity has made it vulnerable to.

[Julian]

The accusation of outside agitator.

[Derek]

And fascists, of course, want to paint.

[Julian]

Resistance to their territorial claims as coming from the outside.

[Derek]

Foreigners, immigrants, Jews. They threw this accusation at Martin Luther.

[Julian]

King Jr. All the time. And last May, I interviewed Dr. Peniel Joseph about how the outside agitator trope was mobilized against every civil rights figure, regardless of where they were from.

[Derek]

But consider the response from Columbia and.

[Julian]

Other universities to their own students leading protests last spring.

[Derek]

The outside agitator epithet was quickly deployed.

[Julian]

By the administration and the police to justify harsher repression because our students couldn't possibly feel this way about our investments in Israeli arms companies. And even the kindly governor Tim Waltz.

[Derek]

Years before, used the trope to delegitimize.

[Julian]

The Minneapolis protests following the murder of George Floyd.

[Derek]

Now, we don't know who punched Richard Spencer, but there's no reason to believe that that Richard Spencer wasn't the only outside agitator who mattered. And so how did all the upstanding citizens view that punch? I'll let Bangladeshi Australian comedian Amer Rahman.

[Julian]

Send up the mainstream discourse that followed.

[Amer Rahman]

And then every white liberal came out of the woodworks going, I don't know. I don't know. That's what we should be doing. Should we really be applying someone for punching a Nazi? Is that how we want to have political conversations? Shouldn't we hear people loud? If you punch a Nazi, it doesn't make you as bad as one. You know what we should do with Nazis? We should debate them, and we should defeat them in the marketplace of ideas. I don't really know where that is. I would like to defeat Nazis on planet Planet Earth first, and then after we eradicate them here, you can fight them in the marketplace of ideas. Fucking Narnia. Whatever imaginary realm it is that you think Nazis can be constructively debated, go.

[Derek]

For it right now. Before this bit, Raman points out that the punch came after Spencer had enjoyed.

[Julian]

Profile laundering and political legitimization via a series of mainstream interviews. Then we have Randy Cohen, the New York Times ethics columnist, who chimes in.

[Derek]

And I'm Going to quote here from how anti fascist expert Mark Bray analyzes it. He epitomized the tendency to interpret anti fascist violence as superficially as possible by.

[Julian]

Arguing that the Holocaust occurred, quote, not because people failed to punch Nazis, unquote. Instead, Cohen advocated following, quote, Gandhi's example.

[Derek]

Or King's example, without resorting to the gutter tactics of people like Spencer. So that's what we call the piety argument. Maybe.

[Julian]

But then there's the don't provoke the.

[Derek]

Abuser argument, which basically says that antifa street actions are dangerous because they can.

[Julian]

Only escalate right wing violence.

[Derek]

Now this take commonly omits that right.

[Julian]

Wing violence is the precondition against which.

[Derek]

Anti fascists are defending themselves or public space or the vulnerable. It generally ignores the common knowledge that right wing violence is always already pervasive and deadly. A 2020 report examining political violence related murders in the US going back over 25 years found that right wing extremists had killed 329 people, while only one murder was committed by a self described anti fascist. It's always asymmetrical like this, kinetically beautiful or not. There were definitely problems with the memeification of the punch.

[Julian]

Many pointed out that it decontextualized the politics of the moment.

[Derek]

It reduced the moment down to, you know, a question of what would Gandhi do? A consideration of the ethics of the.

[Julian]

Puncher and of the right of Richard Spencer to not get punched. It instantly trivialized the puncher's motives, their training, their network.

[Derek]

And it didn't take long for punching.

[Julian]

Nazis to be conflated with the jackass.

[Derek]

Fad of the knockout game. Now, Mark Bray noted that most journalists.

[Julian]

At the time who reached out to him for comment only wanted to ask him about punching Nazis and wearing black and broken windows at Starbucks. So if he wanted to educate anyone on a century of the diversity of.

[Derek]

Antifascist philosophy and action, he'd have to sidestep those questions and set his own agenda. So this trivialization led to three things at least the predictable mainstream piety that.

[Julian]

Nonviolence must overcome our violent tendencies, which.

[Derek]

Pages King and Gandhi to exemplify the.

[Julian]

Peaceful leaders whose purely nonviolent tactics change the world.

[Derek]

But there are no pure test cases.

[Julian]

As we'll see in the second part.

[Derek]

Of this episode on Monday. Given that most, if not all resistance.

[Julian]

Successes are achieved through nonviolent civil disobedience in tandem with a range of actions.

[Derek]

From armed resistance like guerrilla warfare to.

[Julian]

Unarmed violent resistance as in riots.

[Derek]

But secondly, as Spencer Sunshine points out in their pamphlet 40 Ways to Fight Fascists.

[Julian]

The trivialization led to demonization and had a chilling effect on other tactics.

[Derek]

Later that year, Republican Senator Ted Cruz co sponsored a bill which sought to.

[Julian]

Label punching Nazis as domestic terror terrorism. In response to the May and June.

[Derek]

2020 George Floyd protests, President Trump claimed.

[Julian]

That those who confronted white nationalists were themselves domestic terrorists.

[Derek]

In reality, the vast majority of the work involved in countering the far right is perfectly legal.

[Julian]

However, these condemnations have worked to dissuade.

[Derek]

People from using the many legal community based actions available to fight white nationalists. Thirdly, turning the punch into a meme.

[Julian]

For social media does something strange to the embodied gravity of the act.

[Derek]

The Austrian French philosopher Jean Amery grasped that gravity in his 1966 book called.

[Julian]

At the Mind's Contemplations by a Survivor on Auschwitz and Its Realities.

[Derek]

In it, he recounts being tortured by.

[Julian]

The Gestapo but having one fleeting moment in which he was able to punch a Nazi in the face. Quote I had grasped well that there are situations in life in which our body is our entire self and our entire fate. I was my body and nothing else in hunger. In the blows that I suffered, in the blow that I dealt, my body, debilitated and crusted with filth, was my calamity. My body, when it tensed to strike, was my physical and metaphysical dignity.

[Derek]

In situations like mine, physical violence is the sole means for restoring a disjointed personality. Now, Richard Spencer's puncher was not being tortured by the Gestapo, but we don't know what their trauma history is or whether that punch granted the experience of restoring a disjointed personality. The virality of the moment suggests that.

[Julian]

Simply watching it happen over and over again on video did restore a sense.

[Derek]

Of balance for a lot of people. But the spectacle of the punch, fragmented and disembodied by the meme mill may have provided a certain catharsis while also further muddying a muddied conversation about what violence is. The hilarity took the focus off the crucial issue of who is allowed to be a body and in which space. And it took focus away from all.

[Julian]

Of the less dramatic and more generative.

[Derek]

Things that can be done to shove fascism back under its rock.

[Julian]

So why did so many pundits frame a single punch hitting the face of the leader of a violent movement as a critical matter of incivility and an.

[Derek]

Affront to free speech? The most direct and evergreen anti fascist.

[Julian]

Answer I've heard comes from Kwame ture in his 1969 essay the Pitfalls of liberalism.

[Derek]

Now his context is the question of.

[Julian]

Whether white liberals truly want to participate.

[Derek]

In the struggle for racial justice and whether they can shed the habit of.

[Julian]

Enabling racists through civility and appeasement for the ultimate purpose of maintaining the status.

[Derek]

Quo in which they enjoy uninterrupted economic comfort. So really, he's in the zone of.

[Julian]

The theme I touched on this past Thursday when I pointed to the historical.

[Derek]

Failures of centrist journalists in reporting on the rise of fascism in the early 20th century.

[Julian]

And to clarify his use of liberal.

[Derek]

Here, he's not talking about liberals as leftists as muddied up by Rush Limbaugh and Fox News, but rather the middle.

[Julian]

Of the road believer in the American.

[Derek]

Project of reasonable capitalism who believes that.

[Julian]

Human rights can be reconciled with a system set up to produce wealth inequality.

[Derek]

And that we can work our differences.

[Julian]

Out in the marketplace of ideas.

[Derek]

Toure, then known as Stokely Carmichael, was often more radical in his rhetoric than other famous civil rights activists, than MLK Jr. For example. So both then and now, his voice and similar voices are somewhat marginal now. He wasn't as blunt as his successor at sncc, H. Rap Brown, who would say things like, america is as violent as cherry pie. So Toure and King butted heads over tactics, but they grew to be friends and mutual admirers, and they shared the.

[Julian]

View, especially later on in King's life, that the white liberal prioritized law and order over justice and was in fact a greater enemy to racial equality than the overt racist because you can't tell.

[Derek]

Where they stand or if they're ever going to sacrifice any of their personal comfort for the sake of collective justice. Now here's how Toure's mentor, Malcolm X, famously put it.

[Malcolm X]

Being friendly and being a friend, I think, are two different things. I think there are many whites who act friendly toward Negroes. A fox acts friendly toward the lamb, and usually the foxes is the one who ends up with the lamb chop on his plate. The wolf doesn't act friendly, and therefore the wolf has more difficulty in getting the lamb chopped in his plate. I'd like to point out, though, that I say that because it is usually, if you study the structure of the Negro community, economically, politically, civically, psychologically and otherwise, it's controlled by the white liberal who usually poses as the friend of the Negro, who actually differs from the white conservative in the same way that the fox differs from the wolf. Their appetite is the same, their motives are the same, it's only their mannerisms and methods that differ.

[Derek]

Ture pinpoints an adjacent issue.

[Julian]

Now he says, I think the biggest problem with the white liberal in America and perhaps the liberal around the world, is that his primary task is to stop confrontation, to stop conflicts, not to redress grievances, but to stop confrontation.

[Derek]

Now I want to be clear here that in the passage that follows, Ture.

[Julian]

Is mainly talking about maximal violence, referring to the bloody realities of imperialism, occupation.

[Derek]

The Vietnam War, and the questions of.

[Julian]

Armed resistance that the Black Power movement.

[Derek]

Was litigating at the time that he's writing this. In the follow up episode on Monday, I'll be using a passage from Eric McBay's full spectrum resistance, aptly titled, to.

[Julian]

Flesh out the range of actions that.

[Derek]

Anti fascists consider when they are thinking about force versus nonviolent resistance, with or without physical force versus unarmed violence in protest scenarios versus armed violence. So I'm not quoting this to invoke.

[Julian]

A one to one comparison between the on the ground conditions Ture is immersed.

[Derek]

In in 1960 with how anti fascists today consider defending sidewalks and restaurant kitchens.

[Julian]

And neighborhoods against ICE or Trumpian thugs. Every condition is different.

[Derek]

I'm quoting Ture for the philosophical reasoning that helps to separate feelings about violence.

[Julian]

From the facts of violence. The most perturbing question for the liberal is the question of violence. The liberals initial reaction to violence is to try to convince the oppressed that violence is an incorrect tactic, that violence will not work, that violence never accomplishes anything. Well, the Europeans took America through violence.

[Derek]

And through violence they established the most.

[Julian]

Powerful country in the world. Through violence they maintain the most powerful country in the world.

[Derek]

It is absolutely absurd for one to.

[Julian]

Say that violence never accomplishes anything. And then here's where Toure quarantines off the seeming moral questions that bog so.

[Derek]

Much of this down to show how.

[Julian]

They'Re not actually matters of morality at all, but matters of legalized power. Quote it's not a question of whether it's right to kill or it is wrong to kill. Killing goes on.

[Derek]

Let me give an example.

[Julian]

If I were in Vietnam, If I.

[Derek]

Killed 30 yellow people who were pointed.

[Julian]

Out to me by white Americans as my enemy, I would be given a medal.

[Derek]

I would become a hero.

[Julian]

I would have killed America's enemy. But America's enemy is not my enemy. If I were to kill 30 white policemen in Washington D.C. who have been brutalizing my people and who are my enemy, I would get the electric chair. It is simply a question of who has the power to legalize violence in Vietnam. Our violence is legalized by white America in Washington D.C. my violence is not legalized because Africans living in Washington D.C. do not have the power to legalize their violence. And so he's really lucid then, on.

[Derek]

The double standard that people with power.

[Julian]

Raise moral questions about violence only when.

[Derek]

The oppressed use it against them.

[Julian]

And further, that it is only certain forms of violence that are spotlighted for investigation. So he writes, quote, is it not violent for a child to go to bed hungry in the richest country in the world?

[Derek]

I think that is violent. But that type of violence is so.

[Julian]

Institutionalized that it becomes part of our way of life.

[Derek]

Not only do we accept poverty, we.

[Julian]

Even find it normal.

[Derek]

Now, while we're back in the day.

[Julian]

With ture, we have to know that alongside big swaths of the Black power.

[Derek]

Movement, he was part of.

[Julian]

His understanding of forceful resistance to the cruelty of the American state was inseparable from a broader anti colonialist discourse in which fighting back in self defense was about justice, but also basic dignity.

[Derek]

Frantz Fanon, the Martiniquet psychiatrist and Marxist.

[Julian]

Who published Black Skin, White Mask in.

[Derek]

1952 and the Wretched of the Earth 1961, the year he died of leukemia at the age of 36 only he.

[Julian]

Opened his chapter concerning violence in the.

[Derek]

Latter book by asserting that seeking justice.

[Julian]

Through decolonization was always a violent process.

[Derek]

As a psychiatrist, he noted the impossible.

[Julian]

Situation of a colonized child who as soon as they are born, it is obvious to them that their cramped world, riddled with taboos, can only be challenged.

[Derek]

By out and out violence.

[Julian]

Now, Fanon did not glorify violence, but he described forceful resistance and self defense as a potentially liberating energy freeing the oppressed person from inferiority, despair and inaction. And that brings me back to my.

[Derek]

Friend Michael, who had a different personalized understanding. I always thought of nonviolence as a.

[Julian]

Way of using meditation and bodily awareness to stay disciplined during times of turbulence.

[Derek]

In my life as a father in the relatively peaceful city of Toronto, most.

[Julian]

Of the violence I have encountered is in my own heart and mind.

[Derek]

A temper, old emotions rooted in my.

[Julian]

Childhood, and irritation when my son takes an hour to put on his snow pants.

[Derek]

I've never had to respond to a.

[Julian]

Group of young people burning a police.

[Derek]

Car in front of a bank, with.

[Julian]

Military helicopters circling overhead and a son in my arms asking for an explanation.

[Derek]

So Michael died in 2017, but I think if he'd gotten to see all.

[Julian]

Of this unfold and as he had gotten older, I can imagine us chatting.

[Derek]

Today a little more intelligently as two white guys about who exactly our city.

[Julian]

Has never been safe for.

[Derek]

And how nonviolence can afford to be naive if it's never tested by marginalization or material consequence. And maybe how there's a lot of people who want to use the aesthetics.

[Julian]

And rhetoric of social change, especially on.

[Derek]

Social media, to energize their personal entrepreneurial.

[Julian]

Projects, and that this has also diluted the material meeting of resisting violence.

[Derek]

Okay, so at this point, I hope there's been enough catharsis over the general feelings evoked by punching and self defense.

[Julian]

And rebelling injustice to home in on some definitions.

[Derek]

What are we really talking about when we use the terms violence and nonviolence? How opposed are they really? This is a crucial question because everything.

[Julian]

I've explored so far has only really excavated the cloudy morality and psychology of.

[Derek]

The issue to get down to this level. And what is more important than anything.

[Julian]

Else to the anti fascist is the question of what works to get fascism to go away.

[Derek]

That means that we have to talk about tactics really precisely. And that's what I'll get to in the episode that drops in two days on Patreon. And I'll finish out that episode with a discussion of how anti fascist direct.

[Julian]

Action and mutual aid are actually inseparable by discussing two films.

[Derek]

So there's the 2022 adaptation of Andreas Malms how to Blow Up a Pipeline.

[Julian]

Directed by Daniel Goldhaber with co writers.

[Derek]

Ariella Bearer and Jordan Seoul. And then the incredible 1995 film Land.

[Julian]

And Freedom by Ken Loach, about an unemployed Englishman in 1936 who joins an anarchist militia in Aragon fighting in the.

[Derek]

International Brigades against Franco.

[Julian]

I'll see you.