A (3:14)

So, Derek, I imagined that you'd at very least crack a wry smile at knowing that Matt Taibbi and Michael Shellenberger's overblown coinage of the censorship industrial complex term is now government business as a basis for deporting critics.

B (3:31)

Yeah, it's. It's absurd. And also just along the lines, I mean, we're going to get into that today, but Taibi is suing another former conspirituality guest, Owen Higgins, in order to defend his position. He unironically. Taiby wrote an article for the Free Press and he titled it To Protect Free Speech. I'm suing the man who defamed me.

A (3:54)

That's. Are you sure that's not the Onion? It's definitely not the Onion.

B (3:57)

No, it's not. But this whole episode, it kind of feels an Onion episode. When I posted a screenshot of that, because it's just such an absurd accusation and title itself, I tagged Renee Da another guest, multi multiple time guest here. She was part of the group that gave rise to the term global industrial censorship complex. And she replied to me that she actually laughed out loud when she saw Tai's article, which made her cat jump.

A (4:30)

Yeah, I mean, concerned about what. How they're going to come for her. I mean, at least she's an American citizen, so they're, you know, it's not going to be like we're denying your visa. But she was really framed as being at the center of this censorship industrial complex which brought together big tech and university think tanks and the media and the government.

B (4:50)

She was sued for it as well, which she got through that lawsuit. But, you know, for a long time she couldn't even speak about it because of the. The pending litigation. And now she's much more free on social media. So she's been going after a lot of the critics of people like Owen Higgins and of everything going on right now online.

A (5:09)

Yeah. And perhaps also, you know, telling and. And par for the course that this would be in the Free Press, Barry Weiss's organization, given that she was involved in the Twitter files. And this all sort of cycles around the same sort of controversy around the government supposedly censoring conservative and Covid contrarian voices during the pandemic. And now, you know, these guys are going to get them back for all of it. So I said it was perhaps ironic or maybe even fitting that the Five individuals facing visa bans and deportation would only be revealed on the personal Twitter page of Marco Rubio's undersecretary. And even then it was buried in a threaded post. Now, the first excretion, which is, I have to give David Pakman credit for this. If, if you don't call it a twee anymore on X, it's an excretion. The first excretion in that thread mentioned Murthy style censorship and promised to continue seeking transparency, truth and reconciliation at the State Department. And I just can't help myself. I have to reference this and unpack it briefly for two reasons. First, Rogers is sardonically using the phrase truth and reconciliation, which specifically comes from the post apartheid commission led by Anglican Bishop Desmond Tutu.

B (6:25)

And.

A (6:26)

And this sought to foster collective healing in the new South Africa by holding hearings in which those who'd committed atrocities, I'm talking about abductions, torture, murder, could come forward and confess their crimes, usually to the families of their victims who were seeking closure. If those perpetrators were deemed sufficiently remorseful, they could be pardoned, and if not, they would be tried for crimes they'd confess to committing in front of the commission. So that's the first red flag, this insinuation that the, the post era has this kind of gravitas with regard to a supposed Biden administration tyranny. And then second, the reference to Murthy seemingly, you know, we're going to, we're going to cite Supreme Court precedent here is often brought up by these magas, but it's completely nonsensical. Murthy versus Missouri was the name of the SCOTUS case alleging that the Surgeon General at that time, Vivek Murthy, had used his government powers to coerce big tech companies into censoring conservative viewpoints during COVID But the Supreme Court actually overturned the 5th Circuit decision by 6 to 3 with none other than Amy Coney Barrett citing the dearth of facts. This is a quote, the dearth of facts to support the claim that any action taken by the social media companies was a result of executive branch action. So red flag number two there, referencing a decision by your own maga, stacked Supreme Court, which you actually lost as if it supports your arguments. The first person that Sarah Rogers went on to list in that thread regarding the visa bans was Thierry Breton, who she referred to as the mastermind behind the dsa, mentioning his attempts to hold Elon Musk accountable. So what is the DSA? The Digital Services act is an EU law that went into effect in 2022 and it established a legal framework for accountability, transparency and content moderation across the European Union. And that's a whole topic in and of itself. But for now let's just say they have tried to impose fines on very large platforms and very large search engines. Those are specific technical terms operating in the EU regardless of their country of origin if they were deemed in violation of these new laws. And Most notably, Elon Musk's ex has been hit with $140 million fine for deceptive design and lack of ad transparency and lack of research acts, researcher access to data on the platform, and they're currently in limbo as they might appeal that decision. Of the five people sanctioned, four of them listed by Rogers in this Twitter thread are Europeans involved with the DSA and or other disinformation opponents. But second in line was Imran Ahmed, and Roger specifically details the highly impactful Disinformation Dozen study published by his center for Countering Digital Hate, which we've talked about a whole bunch on this podcast. This document showed that just 12 anti vax groups or individuals were responsible for over 65% of the disinformation about vaccines flooding the Internet during COVID and that they were profiting handsomely from their efforts. That list featured the cast of probably about half of our episode profiles during the Pandemic, and also featured prominently in what we called the Gallery of Rogues section of the Conspirituality Book. I'm talking about RFK Jr. Joseph Mercola, Christiane Northrup Sayer, G. Kelly Brogan, to name just the most prominent. We've supported Imran's work from the start, and he's been a guest or offered his take on key topics for us at least three or four times. He's lived in D.C. for the last five years. He's married to an American. They have a child together who was born here. I've met with him in real life before one of the big anti vax rallies here in la, and he's just as eloquent and principled in person. And now he's staring down the possibility of being arrested and detained and then deported for his work.

B (10:42)

Oh, I knew you were going to those anti vax rallies. I want to backtrack for a moment because the announcement of this deportation crosses over into our beat. And I mean everything does, considering how much we covered that and included Imran in the past. But as you mentioned, we covered the disinformation dozen extensively and we should remember that the reason they were cited in CCDH's report is because they were spreading medical misinformation. But if you're just looking around today at how those same people are framing it, or if you're listening to people like Green Med Info Douglas Sayer G. Who was featured in that report, you get a very different picture of what had happened. As timing had it, the announcement came the night before the Maha Summit, which was a blend of Maha activists and lobbyists, with Kennedy adjacent figures currently employed by the administration on the stage that day, Kennedy interviewed Vice President J.D. vance. The entire event was a who's who of Maha activists, many of them coming from the anti VAX coalition that Kennedy's organization, Children's Health Defense helped to build. Yeah, Sayer was interviewed at the event by a woman named Gianna Werner Gray, who claims to be a certified nutritionist, though I could find no evidence of her education. Her LinkedIn only lists her senior year of high school at Australia, Australia's Charles Darwin University. Okay, where she says she studied English, maths, law, art, drama, business. Nothing on nutrition or health that hasn't stopped her from publishing books like Cancer Free with Food and the upcoming the Truth About Seed Oils, which is coming out in March on Simon and Schuster. I was very discouraged to see she was sort of hosting for Instagram or whatever television show she might run, I don't know, but it was on her feed and on Sayers feed. She stopped Sayre at the event and wanted to talk about the breaking news.

A (12:50)

We found out just recently that the gentleman that has been behind a UK based nonprofit called the center for Countering Digital Hate that essentially persecuted a number of Americans, myself included, our HHS Secretary, RFK Jr. Dr. Tenpenny and Mercola. These American figures spoke truthfully about the harms associated with forced medical interventions like the COVID jabs. And they were deplatformed, they were defamed, they were subject to really atrocious treatment. And yesterday it was announced that that CEO will be deported because he is essentially functioning as an unregistered foreign agent. And so that's a pretty big deal for those who have been subject to persecution to be finally vindicated.

B (13:38)

Sayre goes on to discuss how the Constitution was dead in America, but now it's back and that he once again has his First Amendment rights. I'm always amazed by how quickly influencers run to the First Amendment as cover for spreading misinformation. Sayre says all he really did was say he didn't want his daughter wearing a mask so that she could breathe, which is a stunning rewriting of history from that time.

A (14:04)

And for that he was persecuted terribly by this. This Englishman in a suit.

B (14:09)

Yeah, even the way he frames it. Forced medical interventions of COVID jabs like none of that reflects reality. But it does in the paranoid minds of these anti vax activists. Then we get to Christmas Day and Sayre publishes an article on his substack that he titled In Imran Ahmed, CCDH's censorship architect pleads the First Amendment invokes his constitutional protections in denying others the same. Here's a sample, Gillian.

A (14:40)

He is the central architect of one of the most destructive censorship campaigns in modern American history. The Disinformation dozen which explicitly targeted US citizens by name, branded them as lethal threats and helped trigger widespread suppression of lawful speech.

B (14:56)

Okay, so let's actually look at this. Legally speaking in terms of the constitutional rights in America, health misinformation is protected under the First Amendment. The government can regulate or punish spreaders of misinformation in advertising fraud or professional conduct. But it's case dependent if the misinformation serves to sell products or services, which it certainly did when coming to people like Joseph Mercola. Who one is one of the Disinformation dozen, they can be tried for fraud. I don't know if Mercola has ever tried, but he had received letters from the FDA to take products off the market that he was selling for misinformation. Yeah, another example. Medical professionals can be punished when offering unsafe advice in clinical settings. But I have to laugh when Sayre says it's a censorship campaign. And again this goes to the rewriting of history that we're watching right in front of us. Ccdh. His report was very specific to identifying figures spreading vaccine misinformation. Ahmed's organization does recommend deplatforming these figures but say are claiming that it was. Oh, masks don't work as if that's all he said. And medical freedom. It underplays what the report actually state from the actual report. Here's the synopsis. Just 12 anti vaxxers are responsible for almost 2/3 of anti vaccine content circulating on social media platforms. This new analysis of content posted or shared to social media over 812,000 times between February and March. It's two months. Uncovers how a tiny group of determined anti vaxxers is responsible for a tidal wave of disinformation and shows how platforms can fix it by enforcing their standards. That's really important. Sayer makes it this catch all first amendment argument and he positions himself as a truth warrior battling the giants in power. Ironically at an event celebrating the top bureaucrats in the country who now hold all the power when it comes to health care and public health. Here's the thing. Imran never made the First Amendment argument. His organization contended that anti vaxxers were violating the terms of service of the platforms that they were posting on. It has nothing to do with the First Amendment, which is about government suppressing speech. So whether or not Sayre or other others are willfully ignorant of this fact, I really don't know. But they are displaying a master class in misdirection when they argue that it's about constitutional rights.

A (17:41)

Yeah. So here's a research study that basically reveals important information about what's going on online, where this kind of disinformation is really coming from, and somehow that all gets spun into you're coming for my free speech. The day after Christmas, I was relieved to hear that a federal judge had temporarily blocked the deportation order for Imran Ahmed after the CCDH filed a complaint against Rubio and Bondi to prevent what they called the imminent prospect of unconstitutional arrest. And Ahmed appeared later that day on PBS Newsnight. He mentioned his organization's work combating anti Semitism, looking at the spread of eating disorder content and seeking to protect children. All, you know, horrible, censorious, mean spirited maneuvers on their part, emphasizing too that they are a non profit. And to your point, Derek, they have no power to censor people the way the government actually can and is seeking to do with these actions in response to the deportation threat. In that interview, he had this to say. You are a legal resident. You have a green card. You are married to an American. You are the father of an American. How comfortable are you that the US justice system will continue to protect you? Look, I've lived in America for over five years now. I love America. I love the idea of America. The idea that, you know, laws are made by people, not by kings, that we have checks and balances on every place of power. And I have faith in the justice system. I know that the justice system works because when the world's richest man took on my small nonprofit and tried to sue us out of existence, it actually protected us and made sure that our costs were covered. And I think in this instance, what we're seeing is America working just as it was intended to.

B (19:42)

You know, I have to say, foreigners often have a better perspective of our country than we citizens are born here. Citizens do sometimes. It's why I often ask about your experience growing up, as you flagged earlier in apartheid South Africa, because It's something no one from America could really understand. And I like Imran's optimism there. My only response is if and when he appears in court, I hope he gets a judge with the same enthusiasm and understanding about what America is and not some MAGA friendly judge whose mission is support as many brown people as possible. Because sadly, the luck of place and time is a real thing here.

A (20:28)

Yeah.

B (20:28)

And of course I can only hope he isn't disappeared in some manner because this administration's track record for that isn't so great right now.

A (20:37)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was really heartened by the fact that Imran is relaxed and warm throughout that interview. He's got a smile on his face a lot of the time. He references his extraordinary legal team which happens to include people from the aclu and Roberta Kaplan, who is the lawyer who represented Eugene Carroll in her case against Trump. That's his lead counsel. He actually seems to me to be relishing the prospect of this legal battle. In an interview from just a couple days ago, Tim Miller of the Bulwark asked him how this was all affecting his family and Imran replied that his wife had sent him a text as he was waiting to go into court on Christmas Eve that said I love you. These people.

B (21:46)

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