Contemplify Podcast Summary

Episode: Amy Leach on Becoming Salt of the Universe

Host: Paul Swanson
Guest: Amy Leach
Date: October 20, 2024

Overview

In this episode of Contemplify, Paul Swanson sits down with the writer Amy Leach to explore her latest book, The Salt of the Universe: Praise Songs and Improvisations. Through a vibrant and humorous conversation, they discuss Amy’s journey from her Seventh-day Adventist upbringing into an expansive relationship with art, music, and contemplative life. They touch on topics such as leaving one’s religious tradition, the resonance of music and language, the value of questioning, and the joys of being “overchurched.” Amy shares deeply about her creative process, her affection for the artists and thinkers who shaped her, and the vital role of allurement in our examined lives.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Context and Location

• Amy’s Setting (01:42): Amy joins from her basement in Bozeman, Montana, with her dog Coco (who she describes as “violently friendly” – if you’re inside the house).
  • “My dog and I are in our basement so that he doesn't bark at everything he sees out of the windows.” (01:55)
• On Living in Montana: Amy reflects on the sense of "coming home to a place you've never been before"—the way moving to Montana was both unfamiliar and deeply right, echoing a John Denver lyric. (09:39)

What Is Contemplation?

• Windows and Questions (02:48): Amy describes contemplation as “living as if the world were addressed to you,” quoting Marilynne Robinson, and as a posture open to questions rather than closed by answers.
  • “Questions are like windows. You never know what might go past your window...Whereas answers are kind of like curtains or shades and close the windows.” (03:28)

Formative Influences

• The Three Works that Formed Amy (05:52):
  • Ralph Waldo Emerson: Major inspiration for the principle "think for yourself."
  • Emily Dickinson: Became her "assigned prophet" after leaving Ellen White of the Seventh-day Adventist faith; admired for her openness and poetic curiosity.
  • John Denver: Provided the soundtrack for road trips that exposed Amy to a wide world beyond her small community.
  • “I exchanged [Ellen White] for Emily Dickinson, who...is completely open to experience.” (08:00)
  • Music as a first language: Amy claims, “English is my second language because music is my first.” (11:15)

Art, Language, and Confidence

• On Languages (13:39): Amy speaks about dabbling in Spanish, French, Russian, and biblical Greek, but notes, “something about [Spanish] made me a louder person.”
• Jazz and Improvisation in Language: She highlights the connections between etymology, wordplay, and jazz improvisation, illustrating her playful relationship to English. (15:05)
  • “Words just remind you of other words and lead you, kind of like jazz or riffing or improvisation.” (14:35)

Describing The Salt of the Universe (16:36)

• Memoir of Leaving Fundamentalism: Amy jokingly admits she struggles to explain the book, settling on “a sort of memoir of my experience with fundamentalism and the way I exited.”
  • “Writing it felt like I was going down a river and I knew that the Niagara Falls were coming…” (18:40)
• Art and Anti-Authoritarianism: The book is more personal than her prior work, focusing on her break from authority, with music and art as liberating forces.

On Music and Embodiment

• Amy’s Full-Body Response to Music (31:45): Music is “vital and full body and life saving,” acting as both mystery and therapy.
  • “It is mysterious...Life saving...reminded me that there's not just homework and bickering, there's also a soul.” (34:31)
• Bob Dylan and Musical “Shortcut Keys” (32:10, 34:31): Amy and Paul bond over how certain melodies and Dylan lyrics carry truths and comfort when words fail.

Faith, Authority, and Affection

• Current Relationship with Adventism (22:11):
  • Amy feels “very entangled still” but “affectionate,” grateful for aspects like vegetarianism and the challenge of authority, which gave her tools for later life.
  • “I am too mortal to mince words. So my relationship with the Adventist Church is, I would say now that I've kind of got this bee out of my bonnet, pretty affectionate.” (23:20)

Art as Allurement and Righteousness

• The Call of Art (25:13): Amy argues that art is another form of righteousness—an investment of talents, citing Jesus’ parable and the creative legacies of musicians and poets.
  • “Art kind of as righteousness. I don't feel like that's always pointed to in art.” (25:24)

On Meetings (37:05):

• Amy humorously proclaims herself “overchurched,” having attended at least 5,000 church services, and riffs on the agony of meetings, quoting both the Book of Isaiah and Solzhenitsyn.
  • “You may have heard of the unchurched, but I am the overchurched. And so now I feel like it's my turn to say something too.” (38:45)

Glossaries, Riffs, and Playfulness

• The Chapter Indexes & Riffs (40:11): Amy discusses the playful, subversive intent behind the “glossary” or “riffs” at the end of each chapter—ways to undermine her own authority and have fun.
  • “I don't want to set my own dogma up and become my own dogmatist. So part of what I was doing with these rifts is...overturn any authority that I might have and to kind of question myself and also to have a heck, a lot of fun.” (42:48)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Contemplation as Questions:
  “Questions are like windows...answers are kind of like curtains or shades and close the windows.” — Amy Leach (03:28)

• On Writing Her Book:
  “Writing it felt like I was going down a river and I knew that the Niagara Falls were coming and I was going to go over the falls.” — Amy Leach (18:40)

• On Overchurched Life:
  “You may have heard of the unchurched, but I am the overchurched. And so now I feel like it's my turn to say something too.” — Amy Leach (38:58)

• On Music’s Power:
  “[Music is] life saving...reminded me that there's not just homework and bickering, there's also a soul.” — Amy Leach (34:31)

• On Becoming Herself:
  “If you can think for yourself, then you’re stronger ever afterwards and braver.” — Amy Leach (23:55)

Noteworthy Segments & Timestamps

• Amy’s Definition of Contemplation: 02:48–04:55
• Formative Influences: 05:52–09:26
• Relationship to Language and Music: 11:15–15:05
• Explaining Her Book: 16:36–20:28
• Relationship with Adventism: 22:11–24:41
• Art as Righteousness: 25:13–27:43
• Music and Family Story: 31:45–34:31
• Meetings and Being Overchurched: 37:05–39:32
• Chapter Indexes as Riffs: 40:11–43:33

Overrated / Underrated Segment Highlights (44:47–50:11)

• Salty Pickles: “They are underrated. The saltier the better, the spicier the better. Salt is good.” (45:32)
• Emily Dickinson’s Commandment: Deep resonance for Amy, who sees “consider the lilies” as an overlooked spiritual practice. (46:21)
• Jesuits' Supposed Obsession With Adventists: Amy says paranoia went one way—“we were far more obsessed with Jesuits than they were with us.” (47:16)
• Choosing Disciples with Oomph: Jesus chose people not for lack of education, but for vitality and “oomph.” (48:08)
• Babies Who Remind You of Walt Whitman: Baby Lou gazing up at the sky, “cool and composed before a million universes.” (49:10)

Closing Thoughts & Signature Beverage

• What's Next for Amy? Like many artists post-release, Amy confesses she feels at sea and doesn't know what she’s writing next, but trusts it will emerge. (50:46–51:25)
• Drink Pairing: Amy would pair this conversation with a hard apple cider “because it’s my favorite drink.” (51:44)

Tone and Style

The tone throughout is playful, poetic, and warmly contemplative. Paul and Amy share stories, laugh often, and revel in the freedom of self-deprecating humor, literary riffs, and musical allusions. Amy’s language is imagistic, gently subversive, and peppered with gratitude for the “righteousness” of artists who have come before. The episode is rich with literary references, spiritual insight, and personal vulnerability.

For Further Exploration

• The Salt of the Universe: Praise Songs and Improvisations by Amy Leach
• Books/authors mentioned: Ralph Waldo Emerson, Emily Dickinson, Walt Whitman, John Milton
• Musicians: John Denver, Bob Dylan, Prince, Thelonious Monk, John Coltrane, Nina Simone, Bach

Listen For...

• A refreshingly non-dogmatic approach to spirituality and leaving inherited traditions.
• Playful and profound thoughts on the intersection of art, faith, and the “examined life.”
• Amy’s personal stories about church life, music’s saving grace, and the art of asking good questions.

Full episode and show notes at contemplify.com