Contemplify: Dr. Martin Shaw on "Liturgies of the Wild"

Host: Paul Swanson
Guest: Dr. Martin Shaw
Date: February 1, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode features a heartfelt, poetic exploration of myth, prayer, and Christian mysticism in the company of Dr. Martin Shaw—renowned mythographer, writer, wilderness guide, and Christian thinker. Together with host Paul Swanson, Dr. Shaw discusses his latest book, Liturgies of the Wild: Myths That Make Us, while delving into the formative myths, contemplative practices, and wild rituals that shape an examined, soulful life. Expect a rich narrative: from whisky and weather to deep mythic structure and sacramental encounters with the wild and Christ, it’s an invitation to bring liturgy out into the woods and into our bones.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. Shaw’s Setting & Roots

[01:46]

• Shaw is speaking from the far West of Great Britain, in the old Celtic lands of Devon and Cornwall.
• He reflects on the Roman occupation of the region (“400 years, that’s like going back to the 16th or 17th century”).
• The weather, described as “skittish,” is part of his lyrical connection to place.
• The conversation opens with both men sharing their fondness for whisky (“Lagavulin single malt, 16 years old. It’s just delicious.”).

2. Formative Influences: The Contemplative Life and Foundational Texts

[08:12]–[19:42]

• Shaw resonates deeply with the contemplative label:

  “Actually as I get older, I am really an ordinary mystic from the west of England... and my primary concern at this point is... the shamanic mysteries of Jesus.” [09:56]

• He outlines three life-defining disciplines: painting, wilderness rites of passage, and cultivating a poetic basis of mind (“It permeates the paintings, it permeates the books...”).
• Required Readings for a course on Dr. Shaw’s formation:
  1. Poetics of Space by Gaston Bachelard—on the philosophy of how we experience and inhabit spaces.
  2. Iron John by Robert Bly—“The first time I had seen a mature figure approach a fairy tale with the reverence it deserved.”
  3. The Captain’s Verses by Pablo Neruda—Celebrated for its erotic charge and full-range expression (“It’s absolutely sumptuous... I want to be able to talk and think [like this].”).
• Notable story: Bly's Iron John transformed a time of personal hardship into symbolic richness (“My environment went from a prison cell to a hermitage.” [15:42]).

3. On Poetry and the Mystical

[20:48]–[24:52]

• Shaw is drawn to W.B. Yeats (“He profoundly wants to be [a mystic]… but the poems are too well made to be mystical.”).
• Contrasts Yeats with Blake (“The mystic would be the terrain of someone like William Blake.”).
• Points listeners to Dylan Thomas’ poem “Fern Hill” as an example of true mystical poetry (“He has his fingers in the hill. You know, he has his fingers in Arthur’s cave.”).

4. "Liturgies of the Wild: Myths That Make Us" – The Book

The Origin of the Title

[25:52]–[29:47]

• The book’s title emerged late in the writing process, symbolizing the marriage of ritual (liturgy) and wilderness.
• The phrase “liturgies of the wild” represents repetitive, sacred engagement with nature—a “nod toward religious experience” and an act of “artistic bricolage.”
• This was inspired by Shaw’s own 101-day vigil in a Dartmoor forest (“There was a lot of attention on fidelity rather than high emotion.”).

Transformative Spiritual Encounter

[30:48]–[37:06]

• During his 101-day vigil, Shaw experienced a profound external phenomena (“A great phenomena. A star fell out of the sky. It’s as simple as that.”).
• Received a visionary phrase: “Inhabit the time and genesis of your original home”—a moment that gradually led him into Christian mystical encounter.
• Found himself “called into an encounter with what I’ve come to name the mossy face of Christ,” a realization first met with terror, then joy.

Wrestling with Spiritual Identity & Outside Perception

[37:21]–[40:41]

• Shaw describes the difficult transition from “masterful” mythologist to feeling like a beginner again due to his new Christian orientation.
• Noted friends and colleagues reacted with “bafflement and disappointment” rather than anger.
• Key insight:

  “People love you when you’re searching. They really dislike it if you find anything.” [38:14]

• Faced skepticism regarding Christianity’s colonial associations from First Nation friends, yet maintained his journey was genuine and soulful.

5. Grittiness of Myth and the Tension of Soul and Spirit

[41:07]–[43:30]

• Discusses the complementary dynamics of spirit (mountaintop, eureka) and soul (valley, despair), referencing James Hillman.
• Myths that matter are those with “negative capability”—the creative tension Lorca called duende:

  “It’s that great rasping rub between life and death. It’s the sound of flamenco.” [43:12]

6. The Three Movements of Mythic Structure: Severance, Threshold, Return

[43:57]–[49:06]

• Severance: The instinctive break from family/community, often in youth.
• Threshold: The liminal, more alive and vulnerable space traversed after leaving the familiar.
• Return: Not just to enjoy the threshold, but to bring back wisdom for the community.
• Shaw sees these as critical cycles for becoming “real human beings.”
• Remarkable dream:

  “I met... God, and God said... the template of the book is really important...” [48:12]

7. Midlife, Sacrifice, and Creative Surrender

[50:27]–[53:35]

• Discusses how adventure and call-to-adventure differ when tethered by midlife and family responsibilities.
• Personal Bly anecdote (“I’ve lived only 50% of my creative life. The other 50 I gave to my family...the 50% I have sacrificed has made the other 50% much more poignant.” [52:26]).
• Key theme: The necessity of surrender and sacrifice for a deeper, more poignant existence.

8. Prayer as Identity and Presence

[54:25]–[56:02]

• Shaw’s view: “In the end, prayer isn’t something we do, it becomes something we are.”
• True prayerful people are “not judgmental generally, and there’s a lightness in them. And maybe they cry easily.”
• They become “letters from Christ moving through the world.”

9. Closing Ritual: The Drink that Pairs with Myth & Conversation

[57:02]

• Shaw chooses a Negroni:

  “There’s spirit and soul in a Negroni...there’s a sweetness and there’s a sourness...If you like a tipple and for any reason you haven’t come across Negroni yet, you know, seek it out. It’ll make your evening super sweet.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Myth and Spiritual Encounter:

  “I think I’m being called into an encounter with what I’ve come to name the mossy face of Christ... my predominant emotion was terror mixed with a little bit of unbelievable joy.” ([33:35])

• On the Contemplative Life:

  “I am really an ordinary mystic from the west of England that’s what I am and that’s what I’m interested in.” ([09:43])

• On Spiritual Maturity:

  “People love you when you’re searching. They really dislike it if you find anything.” ([38:14])

• On Prayerful Presence:

  “People that are living prayer...there’s a lightness to them, and they’re not looking at you and sizing you up all the time...once you’ve been in their presence, you feel a little rewired.” ([54:56])

• On Sacrifice and Poignancy (Robert Bly):

  “The 50% I have sacrificed has made the other 50% much more poignant.” ([52:26])

• On “Liturgies of the Wild” as Title:

  “Liturgies is a word...I’d never seen that connected to the word wild. They almost seemed like they shouldn’t be in the same sentence together.” ([27:11])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:46 — Dr. Shaw’s physical and cultural setting (Devon/Cornwall, whisky, weather)
• 08:12 — What “contemplative” means to Shaw, relationship to mysticism and solitude
• 12:25 — Foundational readings and disciplines (Bachelard, Bly, Neruda; painting; wilderness)
• 20:48 — Mystical vs. poetic in Yeats, Blake, and Dylan Thomas
• 25:52 — Genesis of “Liturgies of the Wild” title and concept
• 30:48 — Shaw’s transformative 101-day forest vigil and mystical encounter
• 37:21 — Spiritual shift, peer reactions, and being at the threshold
• 41:07 — Mud, soul, spirit, and the richness of mythic tension
• 43:57 — Severance, threshold, return as a mythic-life framework
• 50:27 — The changing shape of adventure and surrender in midlife
• 54:25 — Prayer as embodiment and lived presence
• 57:02 — If this conversation were a drink: the Negroni as spirit and soul

Final Impressions

Through stories of wilderness, poetry, myth, and transformative encounter, Dr. Martin Shaw invites listeners to see the wild as sacred and to craft rituals (“liturgies”) not only in church, but in every story, every place, every threshold. This conversation bridges earthy grit with soulful breath, reminding us that to become truly human means to adventure, to return, to sacrifice, and—ultimately—to become, in our living, a prayer.

For more on Dr. Shaw’s work, visit drmartinshaw.com.
For show notes and further contemplative resources, visit contemplify.com.