Haleh Liza Gafori Brings Water to the Thirsty

Contemplify Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Contemplify
Host: Paul Swanson
Guest: Haleh Liza Gafori
Episode: Haleh Liza Gafori Brings Water to the Thirsty
Date: October 4, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode brings back translator, performer, and educator Haleh Liza Gafori to discuss her new Rumi translations in Water, following her acclaimed debut, Gold. Their conversation delves into the power of friendship, Rumi’s ongoing relevance, the ecology of love, and the transformative, startling qualities of poetry. The dialogue flows from Gafori’s own biography and contemplative practices to rich readings of Rumi’s poetry, exploring themes of awe, interconnectedness, political imagination, and the nurturing of joy amid a world of turmoil.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Value of Friendship and Community

[02:59]

Haleh reflects on realizing “the profound richness of friendships and the importance of cultivating and strengthening friendships by seeing people… mycelial network of friends / my extended family… has been extremely fulfilling.”
She shares that traveling for performances rekindled old friendships and created new connections, underlining the necessity for interpersonal nourishment.

2. Rumi’s Startling Timelessness

[03:47], [07:40]

Gafori: “What’s continually clear to me is how wonderful Rumi is and also how much he continues to startle.”
She selects poems for translation that “startle”—those confessional, vulnerable, and sometimes destabilizing in their honesty.

3. Performance as Resuscitation & Resistance

[05:03]

Gafori delights in Swanson’s slip between “recitation” and “resuscitation”: “Both of those words are apt... Every time one recites a poem, they are resuscitating the poem, putting it into the world.”
She elaborates that Rumi’s values challenge “obsessive materialism” and “militarism” in the modern West, offering an alternative where “the wealth is in this active and alive heart.”

4. Rumi’s Muscular Poetry: Grief, Brutality, Beauty

[07:40], [09:07]

Gafori: “His poetry is very muscular. It holds a range of emotions and a range of experience… experienced both extremes of brutality and beauty.”
Rumi encourages the shedding of self-interest and the realization of “our interconnection.”

5. The Healing in Confession and Self-Reflection

[09:41]

Gafori reads from “I Travel to Every City” (from Water, p.5) highlighting loneliness, the journey toward love, and self-admittance of resistance to love’s call.
Encouragement to listeners: “Just trust that many of us have been there… it is our true nature… to feel interconnected and …the truth of that.”

6. The Intersection of Science, Awe, and Mysticism

[15:42], [16:12]

Swanson notes Gafori’s surprising background in biology.
Gafori connects her scientific training to Rumi’s sense of awe:
“Studying biology showed me that things are really, really deserving of our awe… At the center of Rumi’s poetry and Sufi mystical thought is herat, which means awe.”
She finds correspondence in motifs of “branching” and “whirling” in both biology (neurons, trees, DNA) and Rumi’s images (whirling dervishes, blooming intelligence).

7. Gold vs. Water — Rumi’s Ecstatic and Moody Sides

[22:15]

Gafori on her two collections: “Gold is Rumi’s rhapsody, his ecstatic side, and Water is Gold’s moody cousin.”
Water incorporates more grief and frustration but maintains Rumi’s rich exploration of love.
“Love appears in Water 96 times.”

8. Intuition in Translation

[25:39]

She selects poems that “delight, challenge, startle, baffle, affirm, or provide an answer.”
Intuitive “waking up effect” signals which poems are ready for translation.

9. Poetry in Nature vs. Indoors

[28:01]

Gafori shares how reading Rumi outdoors—among pine trees, a river, and starry sky—emphasizes the poems’ resonance with the natural world:
“This poem... has a lovely sort of sense of the responsiveness and dialogue the natural world is in with itself and with us.”
She recites a poem beginning “The garden sent as a messenger...” (around [29:00]).

10. The Political Imagination of Poetry

[35:01]

Swanson: “What does it mean to centralize love as a political goal?... Poets tend to get there first.”
Gafori: “Why can’t we imagine a sociopolitical system that cares for us all?... The flag is the flag of compassion.”
She challenges the audience to “invest in joy,” suggesting that poetry can seed a necessary alternative to destructive societal narratives.

11. Dimensionality of Love

[40:25]

Swanson asks Gafori to read "I Wasn’t Always This Love Drunk" (p.40):
“Driven by reason, on guard. I was a hunter… I wanted to be kingpin, top dog. Bigger than big, like smoke, I climbed greedily going nowhere... I didn’t know when love hunts you down, you only rise higher.”
Gafori: “You are not a hoarder of treasure. You are treasure.”
Also quotes: “Searching for treasure you’ve endured so much trouble. Hear this truth—you are the treasure and the veil hiding it.”

12. The Humility of Service and Inner Transformation

[44:31]

Discussion around the “ladder” of spiritual hierarchy—Rumi, at the height of fame, grows weary of “people... talking about the dissolution of self and self-interest… [but] not really walking the talk.”
Gafori recounts Rumi’s poems on humility and the joy of becoming “love’s servant.”

13. Humor and Playfulness in Rumi

[48:23]

Gafori highlights Rumi’s wit:
“Beloved, when your sweetness rains down, the price of rock candy plummets.”
She discusses the recurring symbol of the “donkey” (ignorance) and Rumi’s playful critique of worldly and spiritual pretense.

14. Ongoing Inspiration—What’s Next?

[51:38]

Gafori hints at a third collection, inspired by the mythic “Green Prophet” who leaves fertility and growth in his wake:
“Everywhere we leave there’s a little mini garden that grows… a value system once again that we’re questioning.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On friendship:
“Strengthening mycelial network of friends / my extended family… has been extremely fulfilling.” — Gafori [02:59]
On poetry as resuscitation:
“Every time one recites a poem, they are resuscitating the poem, putting it into the world.” — Gafori [05:03]
On startling poetry:
“His poetry is very muscular. It holds a range of emotions and a range of experience.” — Gafori [07:40]
On awe:
“Awe is the moment ego surrenders to wonder.” — Gafori, quoting Terry Tempest Williams [19:19]
On politics and love:
“Why can’t we imagine a sociopolitical system that cares for us all?” — Gafori [35:28] “Invest in joy. Let’s invest… in art and wonder and joy.” — Gafori [38:47]
On self-worth:
“You are not a hoarder of treasure. You are treasure.” — Gafori (reading Rumi) [42:06]
On humor:
“Beloved, when your sweetness rains down, the price of rock candy plummets.” — Gafori (reading Rumi) [48:57]
On gratitude for existence:
“We could have never existed… we have this finite existence. So this notion of serving and being in awe of that is very prevalent.” — Gafori [46:25]

Timestamps for Key Segments

[02:59] — Realizations about friendship and community
[05:03] — Resuscitation vs. recitation; poetry as breath
[09:41] — Reading: “I Travel to Every City”
[15:42] — Gafori’s scientific background & perspective
[19:19] — Awe in science and mysticism
[22:15] — Gold vs. Water—exploring Rumi’s emotional range
[25:39] — Intuitive translation process
[28:31] — Nature, poetry, and transformation
[35:01] — Poetry’s political power and the case for joy
[40:33] — Reading: “I Wasn’t Always This Love Drunk”
[44:31] — Rumi on humility and true service
[48:23] — Humor in Rumi’s poems
[51:38] — What’s next for Gafori and Rumi’s legacy
[54:30] — Reading: “Sun in the Heart, Sun in the Soul” (closing poem)

Closing Reflection & Embodiment

Drink pairing for the episode: Ginger beer (“cold and the hot coming together to both refresh us and warm our hearts”) — Gafori [56:16]
Spirit of the episode:
- Embrace the moody, confessional, joyful, and awe-filled qualities in poems and life.
- Let awe and poetry be political—the flag is compassion, the system cares for its people, and joy is a collective resource.
- In seasons of darkness or isolation, poetry (and specifically Rumi) offers nourishment, reminder of worth, and invitations to interconnectedness.

For more show notes and information about Haleh Liza Gafori and her work, visit contemplify.com or halelhiza.com.

Summary prepared in the contemplative, flowing, and poetic spirit of this episode.

Contemplify Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Contemplify
Host: Paul Swanson
Guest: Haleh Liza Gafori
Episode: Haleh Liza Gafori Brings Water to the Thirsty
Date: October 4, 2025

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Value of Friendship and Community

[02:59]

Haleh reflects on realizing “the profound richness of friendships and the importance of cultivating and strengthening friendships by seeing people… mycelial network of friends / my extended family… has been extremely fulfilling.”
She shares that traveling for performances rekindled old friendships and created new connections, underlining the necessity for interpersonal nourishment.

2. Rumi’s Startling Timelessness

[03:47], [07:40]

Gafori: “What’s continually clear to me is how wonderful Rumi is and also how much he continues to startle.”
She selects poems for translation that “startle”—those confessional, vulnerable, and sometimes destabilizing in their honesty.

3. Performance as Resuscitation & Resistance

[05:03]

Gafori delights in Swanson’s slip between “recitation” and “resuscitation”: “Both of those words are apt... Every time one recites a poem, they are resuscitating the poem, putting it into the world.”
She elaborates that Rumi’s values challenge “obsessive materialism” and “militarism” in the modern West, offering an alternative where “the wealth is in this active and alive heart.”

4. Rumi’s Muscular Poetry: Grief, Brutality, Beauty

[07:40], [09:07]

Gafori: “His poetry is very muscular. It holds a range of emotions and a range of experience… experienced both extremes of brutality and beauty.”
Rumi encourages the shedding of self-interest and the realization of “our interconnection.”

5. The Healing in Confession and Self-Reflection

[09:41]

Gafori reads from “I Travel to Every City” (from Water, p.5) highlighting loneliness, the journey toward love, and self-admittance of resistance to love’s call.
Encouragement to listeners: “Just trust that many of us have been there… it is our true nature… to feel interconnected and …the truth of that.”

6. The Intersection of Science, Awe, and Mysticism

[15:42], [16:12]

Swanson notes Gafori’s surprising background in biology.
Gafori connects her scientific training to Rumi’s sense of awe:
“Studying biology showed me that things are really, really deserving of our awe… At the center of Rumi’s poetry and Sufi mystical thought is herat, which means awe.”
She finds correspondence in motifs of “branching” and “whirling” in both biology (neurons, trees, DNA) and Rumi’s images (whirling dervishes, blooming intelligence).

7. Gold vs. Water — Rumi’s Ecstatic and Moody Sides

[22:15]

Gafori on her two collections: “Gold is Rumi’s rhapsody, his ecstatic side, and Water is Gold’s moody cousin.”
Water incorporates more grief and frustration but maintains Rumi’s rich exploration of love.
“Love appears in Water 96 times.”

8. Intuition in Translation

[25:39]

She selects poems that “delight, challenge, startle, baffle, affirm, or provide an answer.”
Intuitive “waking up effect” signals which poems are ready for translation.

9. Poetry in Nature vs. Indoors

[28:01]

Gafori shares how reading Rumi outdoors—among pine trees, a river, and starry sky—emphasizes the poems’ resonance with the natural world:
“This poem... has a lovely sort of sense of the responsiveness and dialogue the natural world is in with itself and with us.”
She recites a poem beginning “The garden sent as a messenger...” (around [29:00]).

10. The Political Imagination of Poetry

[35:01]

Swanson: “What does it mean to centralize love as a political goal?... Poets tend to get there first.”
Gafori: “Why can’t we imagine a sociopolitical system that cares for us all?... The flag is the flag of compassion.”
She challenges the audience to “invest in joy,” suggesting that poetry can seed a necessary alternative to destructive societal narratives.

11. Dimensionality of Love

[40:25]

Swanson asks Gafori to read "I Wasn’t Always This Love Drunk" (p.40):
“Driven by reason, on guard. I was a hunter… I wanted to be kingpin, top dog. Bigger than big, like smoke, I climbed greedily going nowhere... I didn’t know when love hunts you down, you only rise higher.”
Gafori: “You are not a hoarder of treasure. You are treasure.”
Also quotes: “Searching for treasure you’ve endured so much trouble. Hear this truth—you are the treasure and the veil hiding it.”

12. The Humility of Service and Inner Transformation

[44:31]

Discussion around the “ladder” of spiritual hierarchy—Rumi, at the height of fame, grows weary of “people... talking about the dissolution of self and self-interest… [but] not really walking the talk.”
Gafori recounts Rumi’s poems on humility and the joy of becoming “love’s servant.”

13. Humor and Playfulness in Rumi

[48:23]

Gafori highlights Rumi’s wit:
“Beloved, when your sweetness rains down, the price of rock candy plummets.”
She discusses the recurring symbol of the “donkey” (ignorance) and Rumi’s playful critique of worldly and spiritual pretense.

14. Ongoing Inspiration—What’s Next?

[51:38]

Gafori hints at a third collection, inspired by the mythic “Green Prophet” who leaves fertility and growth in his wake:
“Everywhere we leave there’s a little mini garden that grows… a value system once again that we’re questioning.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On friendship:
“Strengthening mycelial network of friends / my extended family… has been extremely fulfilling.” — Gafori [02:59]
On poetry as resuscitation:
“Every time one recites a poem, they are resuscitating the poem, putting it into the world.” — Gafori [05:03]
On startling poetry:
“His poetry is very muscular. It holds a range of emotions and a range of experience.” — Gafori [07:40]
On awe:
“Awe is the moment ego surrenders to wonder.” — Gafori, quoting Terry Tempest Williams [19:19]
On politics and love:
“Why can’t we imagine a sociopolitical system that cares for us all?” — Gafori [35:28] “Invest in joy. Let’s invest… in art and wonder and joy.” — Gafori [38:47]
On self-worth:
“You are not a hoarder of treasure. You are treasure.” — Gafori (reading Rumi) [42:06]
On humor:
“Beloved, when your sweetness rains down, the price of rock candy plummets.” — Gafori (reading Rumi) [48:57]
On gratitude for existence:
“We could have never existed… we have this finite existence. So this notion of serving and being in awe of that is very prevalent.” — Gafori [46:25]

Timestamps for Key Segments

[02:59] — Realizations about friendship and community
[05:03] — Resuscitation vs. recitation; poetry as breath
[09:41] — Reading: “I Travel to Every City”
[15:42] — Gafori’s scientific background & perspective
[19:19] — Awe in science and mysticism
[22:15] — Gold vs. Water—exploring Rumi’s emotional range
[25:39] — Intuitive translation process
[28:31] — Nature, poetry, and transformation
[35:01] — Poetry’s political power and the case for joy
[40:33] — Reading: “I Wasn’t Always This Love Drunk”
[44:31] — Rumi on humility and true service
[48:23] — Humor in Rumi’s poems
[51:38] — What’s next for Gafori and Rumi’s legacy
[54:30] — Reading: “Sun in the Heart, Sun in the Soul” (closing poem)

Closing Reflection & Embodiment

Drink pairing for the episode: Ginger beer (“cold and the hot coming together to both refresh us and warm our hearts”) — Gafori [56:16]
Spirit of the episode:
- Embrace the moody, confessional, joyful, and awe-filled qualities in poems and life.
- Let awe and poetry be political—the flag is compassion, the system cares for its people, and joy is a collective resource.
- In seasons of darkness or isolation, poetry (and specifically Rumi) offers nourishment, reminder of worth, and invitations to interconnectedness.

For more show notes and information about Haleh Liza Gafori and her work, visit contemplify.com or halelhiza.com.

Summary prepared in the contemplative, flowing, and poetic spirit of this episode.

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Summary

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Value of Friendship and Community

2. Rumi’s Startling Timelessness

3. Performance as Resuscitation & Resistance

4. Rumi’s Muscular Poetry: Grief, Brutality, Beauty

5. The Healing in Confession and Self-Reflection

6. The Intersection of Science, Awe, and Mysticism

7. Gold vs. Water — Rumi’s Ecstatic and Moody Sides

8. Intuition in Translation

9. Poetry in Nature vs. Indoors

10. The Political Imagination of Poetry

11. Dimensionality of Love

12. The Humility of Service and Inner Transformation

13. Humor and Playfulness in Rumi

14. Ongoing Inspiration—What’s Next?

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Key Segments

Closing Reflection & Embodiment

Summary

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Value of Friendship and Community

2. Rumi’s Startling Timelessness

3. Performance as Resuscitation & Resistance

4. Rumi’s Muscular Poetry: Grief, Brutality, Beauty

5. The Healing in Confession and Self-Reflection

6. The Intersection of Science, Awe, and Mysticism

7. Gold vs. Water — Rumi’s Ecstatic and Moody Sides

8. Intuition in Translation

9. Poetry in Nature vs. Indoors

10. The Political Imagination of Poetry

11. Dimensionality of Love

12. The Humility of Service and Inner Transformation

13. Humor and Playfulness in Rumi

14. Ongoing Inspiration—What’s Next?

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Key Segments

Closing Reflection & Embodiment