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- [00:06]
A
Welcome to Contemplify where we seek to kindle the examined life for contemplatives in the world. I am your host, Paul Swanson. Today I welcome back to Contemplify Mark Longhurst, author and contemplative guide who has spent years exploring the sacred dimensions of everyday life. In our conversation we talk about his book the Holy Away to God, a beautiful invitation to discover the divine presence woven in and throughout our daily movements. Mark draws on his experience as an activist, pastor, father, husband, art enthusiast as a way to gladly open portals to the sacred. The holy ordinary is for all of us mud blood mystics out in the world. As always, you can visit katifify.com for the show notes on this episode and learn more about Mark's Weekly writings@marklonghurst.subsack.com Now join me in raising a glass to my guest and friend today, Mark Longhurst. Mark Longhurst, it's a joy to be together to talk about your work. But before we get started and dive in, I would love for you just to share, where are you in the world? What's the context of your embodied experience in this here moment?
- [01:35]
B
Thanks so much Paul. It's such a joy to be with you. I'm speaking here, sitting here from western Massachusetts in the Berkshire hills all the way west right near adjacent to Vermont and New York. Lovely place to be in mountains and I am a writer, editor and I'm a dad and a spouse and that's what occupies my time.
- [02:06]
A
Love it. Thanks Mark. And for full disclosure, you and I have been friends for years, over a decade now if I do my math right. And then it was about eight or nine years ago where you actually interviewed me on Contemplify. That was like, I can't even remember what episode that was, but that was so fun because you are such a thoughtful, soulful excavator of soulful questions. And I was just about the other day because someone actually texted me because they had just listened to that and just got a kick out of the microphones being turned around on me. But yeah, you also have, well, you kind of do like a pop up podcast. Am I mistaken? I haven't checked it out yet. There's my, my confession. But I know that you ask questions with like this, with a sense of depth but also with a playfulness of just like the, the given moment. How have you enjoyed your opportunities to interview folks?
- [03:06]
B
Oh thanks. And thanks for reminding me of that time when we turned back, turned the mics around. That was real fun. And yeah, I've called it A pop up podcast to support the book that I released last year called the Holy Ordinary. And basically it's just a podcast whenever I can manage to edit and put it out into the world. But I love talking with people. I love probing questions, playful questions, as you. And I just find it totally enjoyable to have rich conversations about the spiritual life and theology and how it all comes to bear in our ordinary lives and how we make sense of it all. So I've been having periodic conversations with thinkers, artists, activists in that vein over at my substack. And I'll just name that for folks if they're interested. It's Mark Longhurst, substack.com so you can check that out there.
- [04:06]
A
Perfect. Given that you are such a natural interviewer, I'm curious, Mark, because who kind of in the conversations that you've had so far, kind of sticks out as a great entry point for someone to kind of dig into it?
- [04:21]
B
Oh, that's great. Well, you know, I just released an episode with one of my spiritual heroes, Matthew Fox, one of his first books called A Radical Response to Life. And this book really impacted me because it's a deeply reverential and irreverent book that is, as you say, excavating the meaning, the depths of what prayer might be, what contemplative prayer might be, what prayer as act, prophetic, action might be. And so he was a real highlight recently. Just a legendary figure for me and for so many and such a shining example of an elder who's in his 80s now, who is even to this day, just bristling or not. Maybe bristling's the wrong word, but brimming with aliveness and energy and, and curiosity and wonder.
- [05:18]
A
Yeah, he's a pistol. Like, I feel like once you get him going, it's like a roller coaster. Like you're, you're gonna go through some amazing recesses of his mind and like quotes and names. So yeah, I cannot wait to check that out to see the two of you in conversation. You mentioned his book Prayer. I know so much about how you orientate towards a contemplative way of being in the world, but also like the work of contemplation. What practices right now do you kind of or practice would you say is like your home practice? What is kind of your most committed way of entering into the contemplative work?
- [06:03]
B
Thanks for that question. Yeah. And maybe we can get into the. There's always the tension of, of the letting go of doing. And what, where does the right placement of doing fit in the spiritual life. And I am a believer in the old spiritual disciplines. I think there's great value there. And I'm also a believer of letting go when it's needed so that we can rediscover the essence of what the practices are inviting us to, which is just being present to the moment and the presence of love and God right in front of our eyes. So in terms of just home practice, I go back to the. The daily sit. I am a daily sit practitioner, and that's always been helpful to settle the anxious voices in and spinning to do lists in my head. But interestingly, you know, the longer I'm on this path now, I realize I can't really do sit without some type of embodiment too. So I try to do a run or a yoga practice or some type of workout and then do sit a little later, actually. Otherwise, I still show up in my sit a little disembodied, and I could spend the whole time just thinking about what I'm supposed to do that day. So I sort of am able to be in a more receptive posture to love and the present moment when I've. When I'm putting those two together. So that's my home practice, I would say.
- [07:45]
A
I like that combo of the necessary physicality embodiment that marries well to the sitting practice. We're gonna get into some of that. I'm excited to dive in when we talk about your book too, to get into some of that. But I'd be remiss if I didn't ask this question. Cause it's one of my favorite questions. And knowing you as well as I do, I'm very curious for your answer because you're such a book lover and so many of our conversations either spark off from a book or we end up talking about books, about what we're reading. So, Mark, if someone were going to teach a class on the formation of Mark Longhurst, what would be the three mandatory readings or works that formed you that would definitely be on that syllabus?
- [08:34]
B
Wow. I'm an avid listener of the podcast and I love that question. And I'm ashamed to say I did not come with, like, the ready answer. However, I will say Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky has to be on there. And I think that I've shared that with listeners way back in the day, like 10 years ago or something.
- [08:55]
A
Yeah, I'm going to link to that. Yep.
- [08:56]
B
Yeah, I remember sending in, like, a recording of that for you. That's such a passionate novel of. Of the quest for God and the struggle with doubt. And I used to try to read it on a semi regular basis, but it's actually been years since I've done that. But it's one of my favorites. And it was very formative to me as a college student discovering the big world of spiritual quest. And so it had a big impact on me. The other book, I would have to say is Adam's Return by Richard Rohr. And I picked up that book when I was going through a season of grief in my life. And I was also at a place where a lot of the spiritual books and even reading the Bible didn't hold any meaning for me. It just felt like it wasn't reaching the level of grief and depth of pain I was feeling. And I picked up this. I actually had that book on my shelf and I just picked it up randomly. I didn't know who Richard Rohr was. And I started reading it and it was like an arrow to my heart. For listeners, it's about five lessons for male transformation, basically for men and transformation, and probably applied to both genders. They were so direct. You are not in control. You're not that important. Your life is not about you. And at a couple more that it just. It really helped me and led me into a deeper, deeper exploration of pain and spirituality. And the third, Gosh, I'm gonna have to think about that. Ask me on a given day and the titles will change. Right now, I'm gonna say with Head and Heart by Howard Thurman, because I just am so inspired by his life and as someone who bridged contemplation and action and was so courageous and such a path breaker, pathfinder in so many ways and then a mentor to so many. And that just is his story. And he tells us all of all the phases of. Well, not all the phases, but many of the phases of his life. From growing up in Florida to becoming a prominent chaplain at Boston University to his time leading an interfaith interracial congregation in San Francisco, that I always find myself going back to that and taking inspiration. So those are three. But ask me on a given day and they'll change, too.
- [12:00]
A
I'm right there with you. I think it's funny how, like, on a certain day, different three will arise to the top. That's a mighty three. And so thank you for sharing that. Yeah. So I want to talk about your book here. The Holy Ordinary, A Way to God and mark the terms ordinary, mystic, and now the holy, ordinary. The both of these I associate with you. Because of how you've used them for quite a while as this kind of catch all for you to speak and teach through those lenses. Never trying to either get too high fluting or also too anachronistic or feel like you're fighting something. But they evoke an everydayness of divine reality. How did this emphasis on the ordinariness of the everyday become so near and dear to you?
- [12:59]
B
Well, I suppose that I've just been looking for a spirituality that could take me to the depths of longing for love, that could meet my longing for divine love in the midst of a chaotic life of work and kids and family and marriage. And when I discovered that there was such a thing as the contemplative path, however you want to define that, I knew that I was, I needed to be a student of that path. And so I consider myself a student of the mystics. And yet I don't have time to go on very many retreats. I don't have, I barely have time for the meditation sits, you know, that I do. And oftentimes they're interrupted. And when I get to the end of the day, like so many of the listeners, I'm sure it's a breathless feeling like I made it, like, you know, I love those spacious days. You know, I just got back from vacation a little while ago. I love the spaciousness of, of Sabbath rest, and it's so important, but that's not my daily experience. And so this question of authentic, deeply transformational spirituality and the quest for God amidst just regular life became a passion for me. It became a passion theologically, it became a passion biblically and practically in terms of how to embody it with contemplative practices. And so I've viewed my own life just sort of as a laboratory of trying to work that out, not claiming I'm anywhere further than anybody else. But how do we work this out? And I've frequently said, I think we're in an exciting period of history when even 50 to 70 years ago it was people in cloistered communities, monks and nuns, trying to, holding a lot of these practices and the wisdom of those practices and, and the mystical tradition. And, and now those gates have been opened and really anybody, it's available to anybody who wants to taste and discover it. Of course, it's, it's always been available. God has always been available. And so of course there's contemplatives and mystics that have nothing to do with monasticism or even organized religion, I would even say. But it's an Exciting time to be asking those questions is. Is, I guess my point.
- [15:46]
A
Yeah, a hundred percent agree with you. And I think you asked those questions so well, and the discoveries of how you engage in them, I think are. Are very pertinent to your book. Like the number, the variety of artists, mystics, activists that show up in your book. The Holy Ordinary, I found just delightful because some were unexpected for me, whether particular artists, Nick Cave, or some of these mystics that I have come to cherish and like the way that you put a spin on them or add a new angle of approach. I found them to be very enlivening to always remind me to show up with that beginner's mind and the hustle and bustle of the daily life. Who do you think, or maybe you, you know, from different readers telling you. Who do you think was most surprising to readers that you put in this book somebody that. That you feel like you. You saw through a contemplative lens or an ordinary mystical lens that might surprise folks.
- [16:54]
B
Hmm. Great question, and thanks for reflecting back the use of different figures in their lives. I'm glad that resonated. I've got examples of Hildegard of Bingen and John Muir to the Shakers and James Baldwin and Howard Thurman and Merton. Thomas Merton, if I had to say. Well, I'm passionate about the Shakers, actually, because there's a lot of Shaker former Shaker communities where I live. And so I was a minister in my local context. And it just became really clear when I was reading more about them visiting the museums and such that these were passionate mystics and they were wild in their own way. And so not a lot of people have talked about the Shakers as, like, American mystics.
- [17:48]
A
Yeah.
- [17:49]
B
So Thomas Merton has a chapter on that in one of his books and so much else, he was always putting those threads together. The other person I'm passionate about dialoguing, about contemplation with is James Baldwin, who is not a typical contemplative by any stretch. But as I. I spent a summer reading all of James Baldwin's fiction and as many of his essays as I could, and. And it became pretty clear to me that love is the guiding category of much of his work. And love that transforms you, that does not leave you the same. And he was a Pentecostal preacher as a teenager, and so he's deeply steeped in the biblical tradition even as he is operating outside of it. And I experience his incisive perspective on culture, politics and race as a contemplative seeing of sorts, that unveils reality and invites us to live a little more deeply with a little more aliveness. So that's the other person that comes to mind and to love more passionately and effectively.
- [19:19]
A
Beautiful. Those are great examples of exemplars that you highlight and integrate into your own life and your own sense of thinking around contemplation. I feel like the Baldwin, he was such a cultural seer and such a prophetic voice into all things of depth, like always, like drawing beyond what was being said in the popular voice, speaking beyond the pleasantries. To have this. I mean, the wit and wisdom and perspective to really elucidate the masses who were willing to engage. Because he challenges readers, I think, with. To open their eyes, as you said. Like, he's this. This way of seeing. And the Shakers, I'll mostly know them from their furniture. You know, they made great furniture, and there's an elegance to it. And it really was Merton who kind of opened my eyes to the Shakers. And then you've kind of furthered that for me. So it's fun that you bring them up as examples. I think that's one of the funnest things about your book. There's these. This diverse cast of characters that arises as contemplative figures or contemplative activists in the world. I want to talk a little bit about. You structure the book into categories like Contemplation, Connections and Liberations. And each of these categories holds, like, different vignettes, whether it's stories, scriptural analysis and wise reflections. What can you tell me about choosing to communicate these contemplative missives in this way, in this structure?
- [21:05]
B
Great question. These are short reflections braided together, exploring this theme of what does it mean to experience the depths of divine love in our daily life? And what I hope to do is to explore the. Is to chart that in a way that just cuts across, like, a personal and communal divide, a political and spiritual divide that cuts across, that is interconnected and interdisciplinary. And so that's just a way of organizing the book, because I think you could probably choose different. Organize it in a different way. And that's what the. Where the help of a good editor comes in is saying, maybe this would go in this one, this would go in this one. But the Liberation section has more on racism and some political dimensions of contemplation. I've got. In the embodiment section, I've got a couple of sections where I talk about prayer through your body and my journey through yoga and how Yoga has helped me in the contemplative life. And so I think they're just, for me, they're just a way of offering those interconnections and I think you could probably mix them around a little bit. But I like how it ended up.
- [22:40]
A
Yeah, I think it works so well together as this braided whole piece. And since you brought up yoga in your, in the Greek Christ, like a yogi, you say that you probably would not be a Christian today if it was not for yoga. What can you say about yoga that was so essential for your own Christian faith?
- [23:03]
B
Yeah, well, at first I wish I, I had a more dramatic story of studying and ancient Hindu texts and spending time in caves in India, but I don't have that dramatic story. I just discovered I just stumbled into a Boston yoga studio and pretty standard fitness yoga, quasi New age appropriation. You've got your Buddha in, you've got a Buddha statue, you've got MC yogi, you know, and, and I love, I love all that stuff, to be honest. But I was quite scared because I came from an evangelical tradition that said other religions are paths to hell. And yet I knew that something good was happening there just because I, I felt really good afterwards. Like I was not stressed out, my mind felt clear. I felt, and I had never realized that embodiment and emotions are connected, that somehow I can process my emotions through sun salutations, through holding postures, and there's all types of yoga kind of traditions of exploring that. But really I just started going to this yoga studio all the time and I realized the practical dramatic impact it was making in my life and I just, I just kind of became obsessed and I even interned so that I could get free yoga classes. And I would help sign people in at the computer at the rush hour and then I'd go set up my mat in the back and I'd get free classes. And sometimes I'd take like two at a time, do three hours of yoga. Got your more meditative yoga, yin yoga, holding postures in a gentle position. Got your more fitness oriented vinyasa, flow oriented. And I love, I love it all, to be honest. And because it really introduced me to that embodiment piece that was so missing in my, the tradition which I grew up and connecting body and breath. And so it wasn't until later that I began to like read Hindu texts about yoga and study with like a practitioner who had done study under a guru and all that stuff. But because I did want to explore like where does this tradition come from? And what is this tradition? But yeah, and I guess to the Christian part of it, the. Which I didn't really answer. I was in the ordination process actually when I was discovering yoga and would often skip church to go to Sunday morning yoga class because I wouldn't, I wasn't. Church was not doing anything for me and my belief system wasn't doing anything for me. And there are schools of thought where say you just have to hold on and believe what you believe. And. But I was really looking for a practical spirituality and a path of transformation that would help me process grief and help me deal with emo, not deal with emotions, but help me become conscious and skillful at riding the waves of emotions, as some of the yoga teachers might say. And they gave me a practical tool. And so, interestingly enough, it was discovering the yoga tradition that I discovered, oh, there are people who've been chanting in the Christian tradition for a couple thousand years. There are people who have been sitting in meditation for several thousand years. It's the beginning. But I didn't know, but I did not know of the contemplative tradition in Christianity. So it was really like through discovering yoga tradition that I was able to say, oh, actually a lot of that stuff has been there in my own tradition. I just never was taught it. I didn't explore it. So then it's been a path of reclaiming Christian faith, of how can I understand my Christian faith in a liberatory way that makes a difference in my life and other people's lives? And so that's been like sort of my popular theological project of I'm a passionate about the Bible and rereading the Bible in certain ways, but also, just as I mentioned earlier, exploring my own kind of life as a contemplative laboratory.
- [27:47]
A
I love that contemplative laboratory. And it's fun to hear you, you share that story, your own words here about how through that ordination process you had this embodied in practice in a different tradition. And then it brought a way of integration and a curiosity for the Hindu tradition that brought to this kind of, this merging of understandings, not conflating the two, but, but holding the value of what both had to offer. And from what you said too, it sounds like to inspire you into the depths and history of your own Christian faith, the roots of those practices. And I, I think that's one of the things that I, I value not so much, I mean so much about our friendship, but also about your own life journey is like your curiosity leads you to places of discovery and then it brings you back to a place of integration, and then you share it with the utmost humility to friends. And I'm sure, would you let a church, your community as well, about the impact of that and kind of this faithful humility of what does it mean to show up with that sense of that laboratory mindset of, like, well, let's see what happens here. Yeah.
- [29:07]
B
Well, that's very kind of you to reflect and what a joy to be in friendship with you for so many years, Paul, and to be seen like that. I go back to walking up the yoga studio steps and seeing the. The statue of the Buddha and being initially afraid and then realizing, you know what? I don't have anything to be afraid of. And it was the same thing, befriending going to my first Pride Parade or with my first close LGBTQ plus friends. And I kept following that curiosity, and I kept meeting people different from me, and they challenged me, and they were wonderful. And then I brought, as you say, brought it back. Integration. What does this mean for my life and my faith? And I guess where I'm at now is, gosh, Christianity, especially the form of it in which I was raised, was afraid of so many things. And you just named the labels, liberals, other religions, so many things. And I don't really believe God wants us to be afraid of anybody or anything. There's a different conversation you could have about resisting systems of evil and. But why live in fear? Each. I've met so many friends along the way, and each friend has had something to teach me, so it's been fun.
- [30:42]
A
I love your sponge like attitude towards life and who you come across. I thought about you this summer when I was on this road trip with my family, and we were in Kings Canyon national park, and there's this huge flat rock called Mears Rock that John Muir used to hang out on. And then if you happen to pass by, basically his pulpit, he would educate people on his love of nature, his theories. And it's also a great place to cliff jump if the water's at a certain level. But you do a wonderful job in your book. And this was what came back to me when I was sitting there just musing on Muir and musing on some of your words on him. But Muir's visionary cosmic perspective, just his language, his poetic language around being baptized by nature or mountains as cathedrals and rain as messengers from God, a connection like this to nature. And I also invokes the name of Hildegard as well for me. But we see these prelude mystics inviting A particular relationship to nature for you, Mark, what does consciously steeping in the natural world evoke for you?
- [31:56]
B
Hmm? I'm so glad you picked up on the john Wir. What a cool memory. I would love to visit that. That place for me. And this. Maybe this is true for a lot of us. Oftentimes I'm too busy to pay attention to nature. I forget to pay attention to nature. I forget that I'm surrounded by nature, but nature is always there. And I do live a naturally beautiful place surrounded by mountains. We've got a little brook near our backyard. And I've tried gardening numerous times, and I have always failed. I just, like, forget to water. It just never works. So I just. So I just gave up. I've got friends that grow their own vegetables and are way more conscious in this area than me. But I guess what it means for me is to just be. Is an invitation to become conscious as conscious as possible to my natural surroundings, whatever they might be. I remember there's a tree by our backyard that when I remember to do so, I occasionally hug it. And I hold the hug for, you know, maybe a minute or two. And I was inspired by a wonderful nature writer named Belden Lane in one of. A chapter of one of his books that he talks about developing relationship with a tree. So. And we live by the biggest mountain in Massachusetts, Mount Greylock, and was able to hike up that with my kids this summer. So for me, it's an invitation to be conscious and a reminder to be conscious of the natural world and that I'm not alone in the world. And that ecological reality, natural reality, is a part of my spiritual being, whether I acknowledge it or not. And so as an ordinary mystic, I'm tuned into the ways I like to say this is an aspirational path rather than a. Like a lived, fully realized path. Because a lot of days I'm in my basement working on my computer, but then I go see the tree, or a chipmunk or a squirrel runs, and my dog goes and runs after it. And then it's. The beauty is there. And when I'm listening, it's a holy moment.
- [34:32]
A
Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. I think I mean in your words and in your life, because I feel like we know each other so well. When watching aspiration and intention meet. And then also in just like, the. The deeply committed way that you live it, but also, as you say, like, your kids will interrupt your set. It's not like there's this perfection model that you get checkpoints off for being the best damn contemplative you can be. But it is like this aspirational winding path that I feel like your. Your book showcases just the beautiful wandering way of that. But it's that appreciation that seeing your curiosity and holding of that as it. You meet it in your day to day life. I think that just comes through in all the projects that you work on. And your. I think your. Your latest substack post was just what you mentioned about going to your first pride parade and what that was like and reflecting that, integrating that. And you have this. It's almost like a. A natural composting system that is your life where like you have these experiences, you compost them, digest them in ways where they bring fertilizer to yourself into the world. And writing seems to be kind of your natural way of. And the discipline that you. You bring to that you're so prolific in your writing, not just with this book, but with your weekly missives and your substack and knowing that you write every day for your work as well at the center for Action Contemplation. How is writing a form of practice for you in the heart of everyday life?
- [36:24]
B
Oh gosh, what a great question. When I was a minister, you have to get up and speak to people about something whether you're ready or not, every single week. And there was something about that discipline of just doing it every week, whether you thought the material was shit or whether you were so proud of it. And often what I discovered is my perception of the material was often not. It did not mirror the audience, congregation, reception of the material. Sometimes I thought something was terrible and, and it really impacted somebody. So there's something for me about just doing it every week whether I feel great about it, whether it's the strongest piece I might have or an idea, a seedling idea. But living with the imperfection of not feeling like any. Everything needs to be perfect. Before I put that's what substack and some of these platforms are for in my opinion is to really try out ideas and to. I have to do a public post or else I won't hold myself accountable to writing. I don't know. That's just the way I operate. It's like, okay, now I've got. Got this amount of people are. Are going to read it if I. Yep. And this was true even before the substack, you know, started growing a little bit was it's like 20 people are reading it. Gosh, I better write something. So there's something about having it be a public commitment Even just, it's just for another person that helps me just show up and put an idea together. And I really found that weekly deadline as holding my feet to the fire. Here's something. And I've been writing sermons and articles for so long, like 15 plus years on weeks, that I can't pull something together. I do reach into an archive of material and I'll just pull out an old sermon or an old book review or something. And so that's always an option too. But this week I'm thinking it's. It's always an opportunity, like what am I ruminating on? And how is the Holy Spirit helping me live an awakened life? And where am I failing at that? What is working? And then I also have an ongoing nerd alert project of the Book of Revelation. Blogging through the Book of Revelation from a political, mystical, historical perspective that I have a lot of fun with and those are like longer kind of commentary type articles, but that it helps to have a project too, I guess I want to say, because I always do well with a project and then I can go deep into nerdland and buy books and have fun with it.
- [39:27]
A
Yeah, and you do it so well because when you come up for air to speak to the rest of us who have not gone into that, the, the deep cauldron of Revelation or of some of the mystical intention or political implications of that you share with such a. An open hearted way, like you bring the scholarship to it, but you also don't hide the heart in those writings. And it's something that I've appreciated in tracking that project because it is just, I'm just stunned by how much you share with the world in volume because it is, it's remarkable and it's a gift to all of us readers out there. Since, you know, with your book the Holy Ordinary, you do such a marvelous job of looking at your own life at like culture around you, politics around you, liberation movements around you. What would as way of instruction or an idea of an invitation for those listening? How would you invite someone to look at their own life with this sense of the holy or the mystical that they might otherwise miss?
- [40:36]
B
There's something about that phrase, the holy ordinary as an aspirational reality. We could take that phrase and turn it into something striving. And I guess what I want to offer is that the material is already there and it's just a process. So how to go deep into what is already there in one's life and not to do more, but to accept what is and to come to terms with what is. And that's hard stuff. This contemplative path, as I understand it, involves imperfection, pain, suffering, mistakes, as well as all the great stuff, joy, feelings of peace and relationship and connection and community. But that's why a community that I'm a part of, that I know that we share, called the Community of Incarnation, works on the 12 steps every year as a ongoing conversion of life. So I guess I just view all of it, the whole substance of life, as an invitation to depth. And the invitation to depth is inherently what I understand as a contemplative invitation.
- [42:06]
A
Beautiful. Yeah. I feel like there's so many ways that, like everything you just said sprouted about three more questions in my mind. But I'm so grateful for this book. I've already gifted it a half dozen folks that I think it would speak to them. Because I'm not saying that this book is for everyone, because I think a book that's for everyone is for no one. There's a particular. I tend to give this to folks who are really busy, who are pastors, who are in families, because you speak from this. This way to access the holy again in the ordinary, as the title suggests. But it's so relatable to so many people in my life that it's like it's become my go to gift. So I appreciate that because it's. It's an easy handoff point for that because each vignette, each essay holds a particular depth that can be looked at from so many different angles. And whether somebody reads this book over the course of a year, just taking it slowly through each different section, or if they sit down and read it over the course of a week, so much can be gleaned from it. And I think that's a gift. That's a poignant word on your. Your writing and the clarity of it, but also the humility of it, because it is. Holds so many different access points to the soul and the heart and the body that you. You do such a good job of not allowing just one to take over. So this book, the Holy Ordinary, A Way to God, I cannot recommend enough for those interested in what does it mean to be a contemplative in the everyday life, to be a mystic in everyday life, to be an ordinary mystic in all that you do. So, Mark, thank you so much for writing this book. And as always, I like to close with the question, if you were going to pair our conversation on your book the Holy Ordinary with a drink, what would be your drink of choice? And why?
- [44:16]
B
Well, since it's ordinary. Excuse me for the cough. Since it's ordinary, I think I just have to go with regular old drip coffee. And I do a little oat milk in my coffee yet because it doesn't need to be the perfect latte. But that's what I'm going for is the awakened spirit right in the midst of whatever chaos and confusion and joy and experience that we're having.
- [44:46]
A
So beautiful. Mark, we've had many cups of coffee together, but I always will look forward to the next one. Thanks for your work and thanks for being here in conversation.
- [44:57]
B
Thanks so much for having me, Paul. What a gift.
- [45:06]
A
Thank you for listening to this episode of Contemplify. May it stir conversation with kindred spirits and strangers alike and provide a nourishing morsel of thought for your week. Slip over to contemplify.com to find the show Notes notes for this episode. While you're there, sign up for the monthly Contemplify Non Required Reading list and the weekly Contemplative practice Lo Fi and Hushed. If you're enjoying a Contemplify rate and review it on your podcast player. The president of the Internet slipped me a note just the other day on a napkin that said, this will help spread the contemplation of cheer. The theme song of Contemplify is called Langside by Charles Ends and Darren Hoveus. Fellas, grateful as always, and I'm looking forward to bringing you more musings and conversations with contemplatives in the world here in the near future. Until then, be well sa.