[Rebroadcast] Dr. Larry Ward on America's Racial Karma, the Fragrance of Wisdom, and Learning How To Suffer Less

Summary

Podcast Summary: [Rebroadcast] Dr. Larry Ward on America's Racial Karma, the Fragrance of Wisdom, and Learning How To Suffer Less

Podcast: Contemplify
Host: Paul Swanson
Guest: Dr. Larry Ward
Release Date: September 13, 2025

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Overview

In this heartfelt rebroadcast episode, Paul Swanson honors the late Dr. Larry Ward—a revered Buddhist teacher, author, and co-founder of the Lotus Institute—following his passing in August 2025. The conversation traverses Dr. Ward’s contemplative and teaching journey, the necessity of healing individual and collective trauma surrounding race in America, the fragrance of wisdom as a lived metaphor, and tangible spiritual practices for suffering less. Through stories, direct teaching, and poetry, Dr. Ward offers listeners practical and profound insights for living a wise, compassionate life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. Larry Ward's Roots, Context, and Early Influences

• Location and Connection to Nature
  • Dr. Ward shares his current home in Arden, North Carolina, and the daily gifts of ducks, birds, and a heron at a nearby pond.
  • On the importance of the natural world for contemplative practice and personal well-being (03:11–03:45).
• Musical Heritage and Spiritual Formation
  • Discusses the gospel song “Plant My Feet on Higher Ground,” connecting it to both familial heritage and the imperative for raising consciousness in spiritual life (04:10–05:08).
• Essential Works That Formed Dr. Ward’s Journey
  • James Baldwin’s The Fire Next Time (civil rights, personal awakening during the 1960s)
  • Søren Kierkegaard’s Despair and Sickness Unto Death (discovered while teaching post-MLK’s assassination)
  • Thich Nhat Hanh’s Peace Is Every Step (Buddhist contemplative influence, relationship with Martin Luther King, and deep presence)
    (06:07–07:22)

2. Meeting Thich Nhat Hanh and Multitradition Wisdom

• Dr. Ward on entering Buddhist practice through Thich Nhat Hanh’s presence and silence, not simply through words (09:35–09:58).
• Traces his engagement with multiple forms of Buddhism (Tibetan, Chinese, Korean) and his emphasis on calming, stillness, and adaptability in contemplative practice.

3. Harmonizing Christian and Buddhist Practice

• Dual Ordination
  • Dr. Ward reflects on being both an ordained Christian minister and a Buddhist teacher, seeing no conflict:

    “Meditation is meditation. … And the other thing important for me to say is I continue to learn about Christianity deeper through my Buddhist practice.” (11:27–12:21)

• Insights on interpreting Christian apocalyptic metaphors through Buddhist psychology for self-recognition and compassionate healing (12:42–13:48).

4. America's Racial Karma and Radical Healing

• Core Thesis of “America’s Racial Karma”
  • White supremacy perceived as a “religious, soul-level” phenomenon, not merely a political or economic one (14:27–15:04).
  • “Ego can’t solve ego”—politics alone cannot heal what is soul-deep.
• Patterns of Conditioning and Collective Trauma
  • How the Doctrine of Discovery, capitalism, and racial supremacy intertwine as “one pattern” that waters the seeds of racialized consciousness in society (17:16–19:07).
  • The necessity of “recognizing our individual seeds” and “collective rituals of grief” for genuine healing (20:06–24:18).
• Quote:

  “We have got to learn to honor our own humanity more than ideology.” – Dr. Larry Ward (24:18)

5. Mastering the Interior Life — Practical Contemplative Steps

• Humanity’s greatest weakness is mastering the interior life. Dr. Ward advises:
  • Slow down your life and intentionally find silence (25:25–26:47).
  • Learn to “hold your pain…without being captivated by reaction to it.”
• Advocates for “massive reeducation in spiritual learning” starting from childhood, emphasizing emotional intelligence over consumerism (25:41–28:47).

6. Intergenerational Wisdom and Learning from Children

• Stories of children’s directness, wisdom, and freedom from generational baggage.
  • Recounts a retreat where Thich Nhat Hanh was asked by a boy, “How did you get to be so peaceful?”:

    “First I decided I wanted to be peaceful… second, I found some peaceful people to be with.” (29:01–31:01)

• Stresses the importance of cross-generational contemplative practice and gatherings (nine to ninety years old).

7. Nature as Teacher & Everyday Contemplation

• Emphasizes that animals, plants, and minerals—“the wind, the moon, the duck”—all can be spiritual teachers if we genuinely slow down and pay attention (31:18–32:25).
• Advocates for “mini-retreats” in daily life, such as a contemplative walk before work (32:25–33:40).
• Creativity and spiritual renewal: making old practices new through personal creativity, such as rewriting chants or composing poetry.

8. Poetry, Creativity, and Living Metaphors

• Dr. Ward spontaneously shares an original poem, reflecting on the “shock” of existence and the interconnectedness of all (34:21–35:47).
  • Quote:

    “I intend to be open for a poem to come by like a guest, and then I try to catch the guest before it leaves the house.” (34:21)

9. The Fragrance of Wisdom: Scent as Contemplative Metaphor

• Draws from the Yogachara Buddhist tradition, describing how our thoughts, speech, and actions “perfume” the consciousness of others and ourselves for better or worse (36:45–37:52).
  • Quote:

    “It comes out as an aroma whether you’re conscious or not. … Perfume is about your impact, conscious or unconscious impact.” (37:40–37:52)

• Encourages listeners to “water the best seeds”—qualities like loving kindness, compassion, joy, and equanimity (the Brahma Viharas).

10. The Lotus Institute’s Mission and Offerings

• Cross-generational retreats, including online courses and monthly talks/meditations.
• Focus on the “Ten Worlds”: archetypal states of being and practical methods to unlearn inherited conditions.

11. Learning How to Suffer Less

• The importance of learning “how to suffer” instead of projecting pain onto society—central for personal and social health.
  • Recalls Thich Nhat Hanh’s response to why the Buddha smiles in the midst of so much suffering:

    “The Buddha is smiling because the Buddha knows how to practice with suffering. If you know how to suffer, you will suffer less.” (42:12–43:58)

• Dr. Ward: “Learning how to handle your pain instead of project your pain is one of the keys to having a healthy society where you feel safe.” (43:43–43:58)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Presence as a Teacher:

  “What struck me was his [Thich Nhat Hanh’s] silence and his grace of movement…that much peacefulness with that much suffering was amazing to be in the presence of.” – Dr. Larry Ward (07:39–09:20)

• On White Supremacy and Ego:

  “Ego can’t solve ego. … We are making decisions every day about how we speak, how we think, and how we behave, which is what sustains it. No big mystery.” – Dr. Larry Ward (15:04–15:50)

• On Grief and Understanding:

  “Don’t forgive, don’t forget—practice so you can understand. And when you can understand, you can love.” – Dr. Larry Ward referencing a Vietnamese poet (20:06–24:18)

• On Intergenerational Wisdom:

  “Children and animals that I get to be close to have … great teachings. … Nature can teach you how to be human deeply if you are willing to enter into a contemplative relationship with it.” – Dr. Larry Ward (31:18–32:25)

• On Creativity and Poetry:

  “I intend to be open for a poem to come by like a guest, and then I try to catch the guest before it leaves the house.” – Dr. Larry Ward (34:21)

• On Suffering:

  “If you know how to suffer, you will suffer less. And most of us have never been taught how to suffer.” – Dr. Larry Ward, recalling Thich Nhat Hanh (42:12–43:58)

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Key Timestamps

• 03:04 – Welcome and personal context (Arden, NC; connection to nature)
• 04:10 – On the gospel song “Plant My Feet on Higher Ground”
• 06:07 – Three formative works: Baldwin, Kierkegaard, Thich Nhat Hanh
• 07:39 – First encounter with Thich Nhat Hanh’s presence
• 11:27 – Christian Buddhism and reconciling traditions
• 13:48 – Application of Buddhist psychology to Christian metaphors
• 14:27–19:07 – On America’s Racial Karma and conditioning
• 20:06–24:18 – Grief work, trauma, collective healing
• 25:25–28:47 – Slowing down, emotional mastery, teaching children
• 29:13 – Children’s wisdom; Thich Nhat Hanh’s teaching to kids
• 31:18–32:25 – Nature as contemplation teacher
• 34:21 – Dr. Ward shares original poetry
• 36:45–37:52 – Perfume as metaphor for the impact of mind and behavior
• 42:12–43:58 – The necessity of knowing how to suffer
• 44:33 – Drink pairing: mango juice as an analogy for contemplative practice

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Final Notes

Dr. Larry Ward’s legacy is one of hope, skillful compassion, and practical spirituality. This conversation is a treasury of insight for contemplatives and seekers across traditions—a guide to healing, wisdom, and the art of holding both pain and joy with a deep, revolutionary tenderness.

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Transcript

[Paul Swanson]

Welcome to Contemplify where we seek to kindle the examined life for contemplatives in the world. I'm your host, Paul Swanson. Today I am reposting a previous episode, my conversation with Dr. Larry Ward. Dr. Ward passed away on August 19th at his home in Rhode Island. He was a Buddhist teacher, author, and and co founder of the Lotus Institute. He left behind a legacy of peace and advocacy for healing individual and collective trauma. I only ever interacted with Dr. Ward online, but his big soul and wisdom and laughter came through with so much heart. My daughter and I tuned into his online memorial, which held that same spirit. We joined in the prayers and listened to the stories from his students, friends and loved ones. Both of us were impacted. Dr. Ward's wife and co founder of the Lotus Institute, Peggy Rowe, will continue their work. As we lose elders, those we barely know, and those we consider kin, a desire to honor them and cherish them in their passing arises. So I'm sharing this conversation again.

And.

If you are so moved, head over to the LotusInstitute.org and consider supporting their work with that. Please enjoy this rebroadcast of Dr. Ward's timeless wisdom and joy.

[Podcast Narrator]

Today I welcome Dr. Larry Ward, a senior teacher in Buddhist Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh's plum village tradition. Dr. Ward is the author of the book America's Racial Karma. He also co authored with his wife Peggy, Love's A Guide to mindful relationships. Dr. Ward is an incredible teacher, and he brings 40 years of international experience in organizational change and local community renewal to his work at the Lotus Institute. He holds a PhD in religious studies with an emphasis on Buddhism and the neuroscience of meditation. Dr. Ward is also trained at the Trauma resource institute. Today, Dr. Ward and I talk about humanity's greatest weakness, learning from our teachers, the impact of fragrance as a teaching metaphor, and so much more. As always, you can visit cotiblify.com for the show notes on this episode and go over to thelotusinstitute.org to learn more about Dr. Ward. Again, that's the lotusinstitute.org now stomp your feet and raise your glass to my guest today, Dr. Larry Ward.

[Paul Swanson]

I always love to kick off Larry, of where are we finding you today? What's your location? What's the context that you're in right now?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

I'm currently living in Arden, North Carolina, which is about 15 minutes from the city of Asheville.

[Paul Swanson]

Okay, and how long have you been in Arden?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

About two months.

[Paul Swanson]

Two months. How's it feeling?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

It feels Good. I'm able to see lots of birds. And we have a small pond where we live with in our condo layout. And there are ducks and a baby heron every day. And so being this interactive with the natural world is wonderful for me.

[Paul Swanson]

I love that. Right now we have. I'm in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and down by the Rio Grande in the Bosque, we have the sandhill cranes taking flight and roosting at sunset and just being there and hearing their wings flap and land. I'm so. I'm right there with you.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Like, yeah, they're amazing. We used to live in Taos, so I understand we got to visit that once.

[Paul Swanson]

Okay.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Magnificent.

[Paul Swanson]

Beautiful. Yeah. I want to begin by asking you a question of what does the gospel song Plant My Feet on Higher Ground mean to you?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Well, to me, it means a couple of things. One of the things it means, first is the wisdom from my own local heritage and the church I grew up in. My mother's. One of my mother's favorite songs. Existentially, what it means for me is the challenge we face in the world today is how to do that, how to raise our consciousness to a level from which we can heal and transform ourselves and the earth in a positive and hopeful way. So that song is about how to practice with your spiritual life so that you keep raising up your capacity to be truly free and truly wise and truly compassionate, and that's at a higher level of consciousness than our daily function.

[Paul Swanson]

Thank you for that. I was so tickled by when I watched your dharma Talk on the 10 Worlds, the first one that you've given. And. And you mentioned that song because I'm a lover of music. I'm a lover of the way that music kind of carries through what I feel like through the bodies of our families and our traditions and how they start to take on different shapes and forms depending on the context of the world. And so I felt this deep kinship when I heard you talk about music and also the ways in which a song has a multiplicity of meanings and how it's speaking to you right now in the teachings that you're offering. So I love hearing that musical connection there. And I always love to ask this question, which might sound a little odd at first, and I'm going to ask anyway, if someone were going to teach a class on the formation of Dr. Larry Ward, what would be the three mandatory works? They could be readings, pieces of art, music, or places that formed you. That would definitely be on that syllabus.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

The Fire Next Time by James Baldwin. Despair and Sickness Unto Death by Soren Kierkegaard and pieces Every Step by Thich Nhat Hanh.

[Paul Swanson]

I'd love to know, at what stage in your life did you discover Baldwin and Kierkegaard and Thich Nhat Hanh? Were those all occurring in a similar timeframe, or was that peppered throughout your life?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

That's somewhat decades apart. Baldwin was. When I was a younger person in the 60s, while the civil rights movement was in full swing, consciously, and Kierkegaard came after the assassination of Martin Luther King, I joined the faculty of the Ecumenical Institute in Chicago, which was founded by the World Council of churches in 1954. And during, as a faculty member, we studied world religions. We studied spiritual practices from around the world, especially the Christian tradition. And that's why I came in to really appreciate Kierkegaard's work. And Thich Nhat Hanh came 35 years ago when I was able to meet him and attend retreats and become associated with the Plum Village tradition.

[Paul Swanson]

Yeah, I would love to know a bit more about your transition to hearing Thich Nhat Hanh and joining the Plum Village tradition. What was that first spark of transition where you recognized that your. Your path might be moving towards that direction?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Well, my path has always been, in my mind, spiritual and whatever tradition I'd be standing in or teaching in at any moment, I was always looking for the most profound dimensions of that tradition experientially. And what I first appreciated about Thich Nhat Hanh was his relationship with Martin Luther King, which is how I first heard about him. And in my first retreat with him, there were many, many people, hundreds of people. But what struck me was his silence and his grace of movement, because I had studied a little bit of his life, and I knew he came through the war. I knew he had students of his murdered. I knew he was almost assassinated. And times. And what struck me was that much peacefulness with that much suffering was amazing to be in the presence of. And that's how I first got introduced to Thich Nhat Hanh. And then I went on to. Over the years, I studied a lot of Buddhism. I'm a student anyway. I study for the fun of it. I enjoy it. And my wife said, well, you might as well get a PhD. You've studied all this stuff. So I decided I would. And one of the reasons is because as Buddhism is still entering the Western world, I think it's important that we really understand it existentially and not just religiously. And so I decided to learn enough to be able to teach the sutras. I had to study Sanskrit and Pali and et cetera. And I still find it absolutely amazing to tradition to be a part of.

[Paul Swanson]

That's lovely. That's lovely. I so appreciate that. What I hear you saying is that that spark of that qualitative presence of Thich Nhat Hanh, where it was the silence that. That first invited you into this. This tradition.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Yeah.

[Paul Swanson]

And then you followed it up with the study and the words and the learning of languages. My experience that I've noticed in the west is so often it's. It's words that kind of lead some. A person somewhere. So I'm always. My ears perk up whenever it's presence or silence that are the first kind of allurements into the next bend of one's path.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

My experience with Thich Nhat Hanh was seeded by living in Calcutta for two years and hearing stories of elders about, well, you know, you're near where the Buddha taught, you should visit that. And so I went to some of these villages and I first got fascinated with the Buddhist path while in India, and I got acquainted with meditation in particular as a practice. And then everywhere I would be stationed around the world after that, I'd find a way to practice or a group to practice with. And sometimes it'd be Tibetan and sometimes it'd be Chinese, and sometimes it'd be Korean. But what I found is I could always practice with whoever, calming myself down, finding silence and stillness.

[Paul Swanson]

Well, I thank you for sharing that part of your story. I, in my own owning of my Christian contemplative tradition, even though whenever I gather in practice across traditions for sitting meditation of some sort and learning from other traditions, there's deep humility I have about all these different angles of touching, silence and presence. And it's such a gift to be in this kaleidoscope of approaching reality.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

There it is.

[Paul Swanson]

Did you ever get pushback from other traditions, whether even within Buddhism or other religions, when you would show up with this spirit of generosity and practice and presence?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Well, two questions that I've been asked over the years. One is, and the most raised question is because I'm also an ordained Christian minister, so the question was, if you have a conflict between what you are practicing in Buddhism and what your Christian practice is. And I don't. I don't have any conflict because meditation is meditation. Whatever tradition you use is what are you meditating on and what are you achieving in your meditation and contemplation and prayer, all a part of both traditions. And the Other thing important for me to say is I continue to learn about Christianity deeper through my Buddhist practice. It's still very alive in me. So I don't have dualism.

[Paul Swanson]

I believe that what has been, as your practice in Buddhism has gotten deeper, what has been some insights within Christianity that you feel like you weren't. Weren't revealed yet or maybe hidden, but through your practice and study of Buddhism, you were able to see that from another angle. Does that question make sense?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Yes, it does. And one of the things that really profoundly makes sense is the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. And if you understand those from the point of view of Buddhist psychology, you are describing qualities or energies in ourselves and in our society that we have let run wild, that have no seeming ethical bounds. And the Buddhist psychology, what you do with your mind always shows up in society. And so if I witness greed and hatred and ignorance in society, it's got to be in me. It's not somewhere else. It's in us. And this is the practice of contemplation, to be able to recognize what's in you and to heal what's in you, not tear out what's in you, but to gracefully heal and transform what's in you. So what spills out of you into history is healing and helpful.

[Paul Swanson]

This reminds me of your book, America's Racial Karma, An Invitation to Heal, a book that I've recommended to many folks and to folks listening here, I found it to be a profound, nutritious in the density of it. There was so much on every page that I was able to receive and try to absorb and try to integrate. I know that when authors write books that sometimes it gets interpreted in different ways. I'm curious for you, what was the most affirming response you got from a reader of America's Racial karma, where you. Where you said, ah, that person got the intention that I was writing with.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Do you.

[Paul Swanson]

Do you recall?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Well, one example is I was asked to give a talk on the book at a Lutheran congregation in California. And it had never occurred to them that from a certain viewpoint in the book, I am suggesting that the existential experience of white supremacy is a religious one because we're dealing with hearts and minds. We're dealing with soul space. And so not to understand things that deep will never get out of this. Because our political. The nature of politics is ego.

[Paul Swanson]

Sure is.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

And so ego can't solve ego. And that's why we're almost in the same place in a weird way, in the minds of many. And we can see that Played out every day in our commercial media space.

[Paul Swanson]

Yes. Yes.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

So that was what people ask, will it ever change? And my response, it will only change when we change. This is not something out there. We're not being puppeted by some giant whatever. We are making decisions every day about how we speak, how we think, and how we behave, which is what sustains it. No big mystery.

[Paul Swanson]

Did that Lutheran congregation. It sounded like it was one of those revelatory moments for them, the shock of the reality of what's happening. Were they able to absorb that as you were able to paint the picture?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

At one level, yes, because I also have some familiarity with the Lutheran tradition, so that helped. And so the. Everybody understood the point of the book. The complexity is how to change it, how to change the trajectory. And there are suggestions in the book of spiritual practices and ways that I work on changing the trajectory in myself.

[Paul Swanson]

Mm. I want to talk about those. But before we do that, there's, you know, about a third of the way through the book, you connect the dots around the doctrine of discovery, commerce and capitalism, and white supremacy in America. And the way you connect them, I think, is. Doesn't often happen on books when we talk about any of those three things, but when you bring them together, you show the bonding factor of that and the. The capitalist inclination to make money off of the suffering of others. Can you talk about what connecting those dots exhibits for folks who might read this book, who have read this book? What does putting those three in conversation do for the reader or do for somebody seeking to face the reality of America's current status and its history that led us to this point?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Well, one way to understand it is how have we been conditioned? What have we been taught? And you can see the intersections of those things when you look at how we've been conditioned to think about the world, about the natural world, how we've been conditioned to think about each other, how we've been conditioned to think about our institutions, et cetera, law enforcement, you can go on education. It's everywhere. And I. Just a month ago, I guess it was. Saw the report from. I think it was IM Aldi in Texas where the school shooting occurred. And the same pattern is there. So I'm trying to help people learn to think both deeply, but also outwardly in terms of patterns. And when we recognize patterns, it's all scientific, but when we can recognize patterns, we can. If they're going in the right direction, we can continue them, we can accelerate them. But if they're going in the wrong direction, we need to figure out how to stop them, decrease their momentum. And I think the question people have in today's environment, at least in the United States, is there new momentum in white supremacy? And I think there is. Because when we look at the nature of consciousness, seeds that get planted are always in the ground. And if somebody comes along like Johnny Appleseed and waters those seeds, fruit grows. And that's what's happened in the last 10 years around race in America. People have watered the racialized consciousness in ways which they don't even know, they can hardly recognize. That's what's happening. And that's why the three have to be understood as one.

[Paul Swanson]

Thank you for that. I couldn't help thinking about. There's a line from Bob Dylan where he talks about money doesn't talk, it swears. And I think that, like, seeing that connection between those three, like, it's just. It swears. It's not talking. It's not in conversation, it's just swearing. And the language of money is the dominant tongue in the way that it dismisses white supremacy, the way that it dismisses the effects of enslavement of black people, of the doctrine of discovery. And I thought your book is not that long, but you. It brings a mirror and a hammer to crack open the nut of what is happening and to offer these new kind of seeds of healing. And you say this, you talk about grief, work, and the need to grieve. And this is not something that I think is. I wish it was more. I feel like we're moving this direction in some therapeutic circles for sure. But what do you see as the need to personally grieve and also to collectively grieve?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Well, I'm also a student of trauma work, and we live with an enormous amount of stored trauma just around race itself in America. Just around race itself. You don't have to pick any other issue. You can just pick that one as an example. And our stored trauma is played out in our decision making and the choices we make and the proposals we present. And unless we gain the skills, the willingness and the skills to heal our stored trauma, we will keep reacting to race in the same way. Not any different. I can see when an event, I can foretell what an event is going to be. That shouldn't be the case. I can already know what the police are going to do. That shouldn't be the case. Not if it's me calling, asking for help. And so it has to be both. We have to recognize our individual seeds. So I work, help people, work with the Understand your ancestors, do not hate them, whoever they are or were or whatever you imagine. I had a teaching not long ago from a Vietnamese poet poetry experience that said, don't forgive, don't forget, practice so you can understand. And when you can understand, you can love. I think that's a beautiful way of describing the journey that we individually have to go on. But we have to be able to look in the mirror and then face our histories and the pain we carry. I think one of the greatest delusions about race and slavery in America is that only black people were traumatized. If you read one of the reports on January 6 event, a large percentage of people who are involved were there because of the replacement theory and that's race. And so even motivates at a level sometimes doesn't even rise to people's consciousness. That's what's going on inside of them. And then because in America we don't really have a collective consciousness unless it's around entertainment or sports. We have a collective mind about. About activities which in my view are basically high school, right? And high school activities. And that is not going to get us through this forest we are in. Sports are wonderful, entertainments can be wonderful, etc. I'm not, I'm not saying those things can't be good. They can be great, but they're not enough. Individually and collectively, we are letting our education systems go into a fog both in terms of science, sociology, history. I can go on and on, but we don't really get much input from the academic paradigm into our lives. And so most of us listen to somebody on TV who says something and we think, oh, that sounds grinches thing, or then activate your anger and so you agree, et cetera, without a second thought. This is one of the reasons contemplative practice is so important. So you know your own mind, you know the dispositions of your own art and you can take responsibility therefore for them. This isn't somebody else's fault if you want to use that kind of language and stuff. So we have to create rituals as a collective. We've never had. And about last year sometime I was listening to Jon Stewart on a program and he said his take on white supremacy, et cetera. One of the phrases he said was while we were building equity, you were trying to get the right to vote and hence the gap. And people still experience this. This is a lived experience. I'm not speaking of an ideology here and I won't have my humanity robbed by some 17th century idea. Yeah, we have got to learn to honor Our own humanity more than ideology.

[Paul Swanson]

Amen to that.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Because after all, ideology is just an idea.

[Paul Swanson]

Yeah. The phrase came to mind as you were talking about kind of the ideological responses to what we're seeing in America, to what's going on in the world. That's almost like an emotional drunkenness, you know, like just riding that emotion in response, whether it's anger or elation. And this brings to mind something I heard you, you, you teach on about humanity's greatest weakness is mastering our interior life. And there's that invitation to h. How do we do that? If someone were to be listening to this and they're seeing this kind of emotional drunkenness, you know, across the board and in their own life, you know, getting hooked on emotions and not being able to have this equanimity that allows them to be in direct contact with their interior life, what would you recommend as the first step? Knowing that it all begins with ourselves as part of a collective. But how do we first show up to. We see all these huge issues in the world, but it begins, our response begins with us. How would you invite somebody to first take a step in that direction?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

The first thing for me that helps is slowing down my life. And secondly. And that's a big thing. But secondly, I'm thinking of the poem on silence by Pablo, a beautiful.

[Paul Swanson]

Oh, Neruda.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Neruda, yes. Find some silence for yourself so you can hear your own mind, so you can listen to your own pain, so you can respect your own emotional journey, and so you can learn how to hold it in yourself without being captivated by reaction to it. That's a skill you can learn, but that is not the skills being offered in a lot of places. We have the skill of shopping. I saw a commercial the other day. There was like a three year old driving an imitation car. That's fine, I like cars. But why couldn't we also teach that young girl, in this case, how to handle her emotion when she gets angry, how to handle her disappointment when the toys she wants doesn't arrive, or how to handle the overwhelming experience of appreciation that may come in her life and et cetera. So to me, we need a massive reeducation in spiritual learning, which I continue every day.

[Paul Swanson]

Yeah, it doesn't end. And I appreciate even that example of a child's need to learn that. I have a five year old and an eight year old and it's amazing to me, just swimming in the daily culture waters of going to school and how much effort and energy it takes to offer an intentional alternative for how we're trying to raise our children. That the massification of thought is that's the waters that we're in. And it takes a lot of intentionality to ground them in something different. And there's no guarantee because all of their, their social lives are pushing in different directions. But I do see it as an imperative for the next.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

I agree. I saw. I'm inspired by the wisdom of the young in ways I never thought I would be. And a couple of months ago, there was a young woman, a nine year old, who made a statement to the education board about the. The wasted approach of the way we do testing. She said, my test makes me act like a machine and I'm not a machine. So there's lots of. I've been everywhere I can listen to a nine year old talk about something. I've been doing it because they are so far past our conditioning of my generation, the generations before, et cetera, et cetera. They don't have the baggage of blindness to the planet, to the earth. They don't have the baggage of having to be lifetime consumers as the only definition of what it means to be successful. They don't have that baggage and we shouldn't give it to them. We should not pass that on. We should pass on wisdom and compassion. And you take those qualities into the world in whatever your decision making, your shopping, your work, your livelihood.

[Paul Swanson]

Yeah, I appreciate hearing that story and that invitation. And I'm reminded of some of my favorite videos that I've seen of Thich Nhat Hanh teaching is when he's in conversation with children and they ask the most direct.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

They do.

[Paul Swanson]

There's no posturing of like, how am I going to sound? Intelligent, smart, cool.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

It's just.

[Paul Swanson]

Here it is.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Yeah, they're great.

[Paul Swanson]

Yes. Is that something that you've beared witness to in person and seen kind of the fruits of how that is that kind of the initial spark of why you got interested in hearing what children are saying? Because of that, those experiences of watching.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Those dialogues many times over the last 35 years. Every retreat, and I've been fortunately to many, begins with question and answers with the children in the morning after meditation, before we have a dharma talk or et cetera. And one of my favorite stories is from Colorado, a retreat in the Rocky Mountains in Estes park, which Thich Nhat Hanh loved to be, to be in. One little boy asked, how did you get to be so peaceful? And Thich Nhat Hanh's response was, well, first I decided I wanted to Be peaceful. And then asked the younger boy, do you want to be peaceful? And the young boy said, well, yes, I want to be peaceful. And he said that Thich Nhat Hanh said, the second thing I did is I found some peaceful people to be with. Do you have peaceful people to be with? That simple. Margaret Wheatley, her name for something similar. This is Islands of Sanity. It's what she calls suggestions of small groups gathering to hold sanity in place. Margaret Mead used to call them sapiential circles, circles of humanness where we can nourish ourselves. Where we're going, where I'm going right now with Lotus and our team is the intergenerational importance of everything we're talking about. So our last retreat, we had the pleasure of offering the precepts to an age range from nine to 90. And more and more gatherings have a cross generational five or six generations in attendance. And so that's wonderful. I think that's one of the keys to the future being different than the past.

[Paul Swanson]

That's so inspiring to me because most of the contemplative gatherings that I go to in the circles that I'm involved in, it's all adults. I almost want to say 40 and above. And what gets lost in when it's segmented like that. I'm deeply inspired to hear that.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Oh yeah, well, children and pets and pets, which is not the right word. Children and animals that I get to be close to have and plants and minerals have great teachings. And this is the benefit from. One of the benefits of a contemplative life is you can be taught by everything. By the wind, by the moon, by the sun, by the sand, by the tree, by the rock, by the duck, by the hawk, the eagle, etc. I mean you, you can, nature can teach you how to be human deeply if you are willing to enter into a contemplative relationship with it. And so my practice for the last year has really been intentionally trying to become more intimate with my experience of the natural world in myself and between myself and the natural world, the human world, but also human.

[Paul Swanson]

Yeah, I appreciate hearing that. And then for me, it calls back to what you said earlier about the first step of like slowing down so you could actually be in a present relationship to the human and non human world.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

When I worked at a hospital, for example, there's a little forested area around the parking lot. And so I would arrive to work 15 minutes early so I could take a 10 minute contemplative walk through the forest on the way to the office. So we don't have to think of, oh, my God, I can't afford to go to Bali to have a retreat. We have to learn how to have many retreats throughout the day to give ourselves pauses, to give ourselves a chance to recognize that we're alive, that we're breathing, and that we're being touched by life and we're touching life all around us. And so for me, contemplative practice is also a wonderful field of creativity. So we need not say, well, I can't do that practice because it's so old. Learn from what's old and make it new again. I've been working with the Sanskrit chant in particular over the last couple of months, and I'm finding it a great discipline internally to taking the words of that chant and trying to create a new chant for myself, learning from its structure and its nuance, how to carry content in my head. That's wholesome and revolutionary at the same time.

[Paul Swanson]

Wholesome and revolutionary. That's a great combo. I'd love to touch on that for a minute. The creative aspect of it. Do you often write chants and poetry in this kind of new flowering that comes up?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Yes, especially poetry. I just started working on Chance a couple of months ago. But poetry, yes. I have probably enough poetry, I heard, for two books.

[Paul Swanson]

So I'd love to. Hopefully that. I would love to see those come out in a book form. That'd be great.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Yeah, I agree.

[Paul Swanson]

What it is about writing poetry and reciting poetry and having it live in your head, that's wholesome and revolutionary. What is it about that that is a friend to you?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Well, I don't really intend in one way to write poetry. I intend to be open for a poem to come by like a guest, and then I try to catch the guest before it leaves the house. And that's basically my. I don't really have a discipline about it, except I try to get the guests to sit down long enough so I can make a description of what I saw. I have one here that just appeared. It's a short one. I'll read it for you if there's time. It's a shock to realize I was not born just like a flower, like the rain, like a cloud I am manifest wonder to discover my new coming and no going. How could this be and not be me, you, everything touching glory we're not nothing we are stardust we are everything. So they just arrive when I'm doing an activity. I can be reading a book, I can be studying. I can be sitting in meditation. I Can be sitting on the porch, I can be walking, and this shows up and I try to catch it before it gets away.

[Paul Swanson]

Thank you for reading that. It reminded me of my favorite songwriter, Greg Brown. He talks about. He's just God's secretary, you know, he just writes down what comes to him when he, when he's called upon. And that's his role.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Yeah.

[Paul Swanson]

I appreciate hearing how there are guests who come over and then you try to, to capture it in words before they leave. That's a beautiful, beautiful image to welcome them, welcome them in. There's this teaching metaphor that you use throughout the first teaching you did on the Ten Worlds, where you mentioned the perfume or the scent as an exterior kind of example of what's happening interiorly. And the language of fragrances, I'm very compelled by. I find it to be a wonderful metaphor in, in spiritual language that it heightens my awareness of my own self knowing, but also waters the petals of unknowing. What makes perfume such a potent teaching metaphor for you?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

That language in particular comes from the yoga chara tradition of Buddhism and its description of consciousness and how the mind works and how the mind is transformed or not transformed, how it's conditioned, etc. And one of the things it says is that the perfume is your thinking and your speech and your behavior. And however you think, whatever you say, whatever you do activates those same seeds in other people. If you are watering a garden and you're over in the hate section and give it fertilizer, it will grow, but so will peace, so will love, so will kindness. And so that comes out of you. It comes out as an aroma whether you're conscious or not. And so the question is really an ethical piece to contemplation. What beholding are you bringing back from your reflection, from your deep looking, from your resting with the cosmos? So perfume is about your impact, conscious or unconscious impact.

[Paul Swanson]

Yeah. It's beautiful. Are there seeds that you're watering right now for this kind of conscious impact in your life? Like I, I thinking back to, like the, the offerings you're doing, you know, where it's, the age range is 9 to 90. What. Are there seeds that you're watering right now with this perfume in mind?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Always. Lotus is committed to watering the best seeds in people. And the Buddhist framework is qualities we call, that we manifest as personalities temporarily. They're called bodhisattvas or archetypes. And our energy in the Lotus Institute, my energy is to help bodhisattvas who manifest compassion and wisdom wherever they Are. And most people never heard the word. That's not the point. The point is they are there, and the world is sustained by them. And the goodness of the world is not lost by them. And my work is to help people recognize that quality in themselves and to help people encourage others to recognize that quality in themselves. The quality of loving kindness, compassion, sheer joy, and equanimity. The Brahma viharas are the practices of true love in the Plum Village tradition.

[Paul Swanson]

That's lovely.

[Podcast Narrator]

And I want to ask.

[Paul Swanson]

You've mentioned the Lotus Institute, and I encourage everyone to go to the Lotus Institute's website to see what you all are up to over there. What else is coming down the pike for your work through the Lotus Institute? Are there offerings that you see?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Well, we have. We have some retreats on the east coast coming up this year. One's in Barrie, Massachusetts, at the Buddhist Studies Institute. Another one is at Copper Beach Institute. That one's going to be on America's Racial Karma in Hartford, Connecticut. And then we have another one where, oh, we have a meditation. Part of a meditation retreat at Garrison Institute outside of New York. We have also a retreat in Rhode island later in the year. And then we have some online activities and so people can go to the Lotus Institute, check out our website and the programs we offer and see what might be intriguing to them or not. And we keep it updated so you can always check in. We have online courses, two online courses. And this work right now on the Ten Worlds for me is critical because I deeply believe it's where the world is paralyzed. We have not learned how to. Or even that it is. We've actually been taught the opposite. It is not wise to heal your anger and send that energy in another direction. It's not wise to let this. It's more important that you hit something on the head than you build a house. So, I mean, we have to uncondition ourselves and recondition ourselves at the same time. I learned this from watching a rose bush when I lived in Taos, and we got a rose bush planted outside the door. And every day I'd go. Every morning I'd go and look at it and talk to it and. And then I saw it was able to shed and grow at the same time. I thought, wow, that's what we need to do to be able to let go and create at the same time. Beyond the dualistic way of thought.

[Paul Swanson]

Yeah. So much to learn from a rose bush.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

They're great teachers.

[Paul Swanson]

Yes, they are. I cannot recommend enough to those listening Larry's Talk on the 10 Worlds, the first one that I've heard. I went, I took a walk with it yesterday as I listened and it was, it was so nourishing. Like the different energies and the different ways of, of looking at this and, and where am I showing up right now? How is this active in me? And what do I need to water? And you know, I've been deep appreciation of your book, America's Racial Karma, An Invitation to Heal, which I recommend everyone pick up. Do you have any other works that are. That are in the mix right now that you're looking to get out to the world through publishing?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

Well, actually, America's Ratio Karma just came out as an audiobook today.

[Paul Swanson]

Oh, no kidding. Fantastic. Yeah, fantastic.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

The second thing we're doing at Lois is we have developed a membership program for people who want to work with us over a long period of time or a short period of time. But some consistency in the rhythm of our interaction with the larger world is there on the website. And then we have talks and meditations. Peggy leads a meditation every month. I give a talk every month. My intent with the 10 worlds is really to highlight what spiritual practices we need to learn or can learn or have learned and can enhance. That helps us deal with our states of being instead of simply reacting to our state of being. But to recognize, not hiding, not denying, you know, I'm in pain. That's okay. The other. Speaking of children, another question was from the young ones for Thich Nhat Hanh was if there's so much suffering in the world, why is the Buddha smiling? Yeah, I'm telling you, man, great question, great question. And Thich Nhat Hanh paused a moment and said, well, the Buddha is smiling because the Buddha knows how to practice with suffering. And after that retreat, Thich Nahant later gave a talk on if you know how to suffer, you will suffer less. And most of us have never been taught how to suffer. And that's one of the benefits of my life experience. I've learned how to suffer and I'm not recommending, but the nature of life is got some pain in it. And learning how to handle your pain instead of project your pain is one of the keys to having a healthy society where you feel safe.

[Paul Swanson]

Wow. What a powerful note to wrap up our time with. I'm so grateful for the work that you and Peggy and the Littlest Institute are doing in the world and for your time today. There's so many, I took so many notes and there's so many elements of this. I'm going to meditate on and sit with and see them as invitations for where I need to water some seeds in my life. And everybody's like to close out by asking to, you know, keeping ourselves as these human bodies and beings. If you were going to pair our conversation with a drink, anything from water to whiskey, what would be your drink of choice and why?

[Dr. Larry Ward]

It would be mango juice and because it is beautiful to look at and it brings the sweetness of the earth into our mouths and to our bodies and our minds. It's just delicious.

[Paul Swanson]

I'm right there with you.

[Dr. Larry Ward]

So and I think that's how contemplative practice should be understood is a delicious meal.

[Paul Swanson]

Well said. Well said.

[Podcast Narrator]

Thank you for listening Listening to this slow cooked episode of Contemplify. May its delights spark wonder and may any sour patches be sweetened by their folly. Head over to contemplify.com to find the show notes for this episode. Sign up for the monthly Contemplify Non Required Reading list and also the weekly Contemplative practice Lo Fi and Hushed. If you are enjoying Contemplify, rate and review it on your podcast Podcast player. The Internet tells me this helps spread the contemplative cheer. The theme song for Contemplify is called Langside by Charles Ends and Darren Hoveus. Fellas, thanks as always and of course I am looking forward to bringing you more musings and more conversations with contemplatives kindling the examined life in the world. Until then, be well sa.