Contemplify Podcast — Remembering Dr. Barbara Holmes (Replay of 2016 Conversation)

Host: Paul Swanson
Guest: Dr. Barbara A. Holmes
Original Air Date: 2016 (Replay October 27, 2024)
Episode Focus: Exploring Black contemplative traditions, wisdom, and the lived legacy of Dr. Barbara Holmes.

Episode Overview

In this special replay episode, Paul Swanson honors the life and legacy of the late Dr. Barbara Holmes, revisiting their in-depth 2016 conversation about her book Joy Unspeakable and her broader spiritual insights. The discussion traverses the vibrant landscape of contemplative practices in Black churches, the integration of ancestral wisdom, African cosmologies, and the need to reclaim fuller expressions of communal spirituality. Dr. Holmes shares personal, academic, and cultural perspectives, revealing the richness and diversity of contemplation beyond Western, individualistic models.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Opening and Introduction (00:00–04:05)

• Paul reflects on Dr. Holmes’s recent passing, her impact, and the intention behind replaying this conversation.
• Introduction to Dr. Holmes: author, educator, contemplative, former seminary president.

Defining Contemplation in Black Church Traditions (04:05–06:50)

• Contrast with European Models:
  • Dr. Holmes distinguishes the solitary, monastic, often Eurocentric model of contemplation from communal, embodied Black church experiences.
  • "What I experienced...I was trying to bring my taught ideas about contemplation into the reality of what I was looking at in a major black church...listening to them sing the song 'Oh, Jesus.'...They enter into that flow, that contemplative flow toward the very center of what is real. And so I thought to myself, this doesn't look like anything I learned." (05:26)
• Communal Aspect:
  • Black contemplative experience is often collective, arising in the midst of song, moans, shouts, and togetherness.
  • "I began to realize...the Holy Spirit descends on the group. Not an individual, but an assemblage of people who are on one accord and of one mind." (05:54)

Family, Ancestry, and Cultural Mysticism (06:50–10:19)

• Personal Lineage:
  • Dr. Holmes recounts her Aunt Lee, a Gullah woman with "second sight," detailing how the matrilineal line carries mystical gifts.
  • "My Aunt Lee had...the gifts of second sight....You would be born with the veil...and so people born with the veil in our family...would have messages from beyond." (07:24)
  • Holmes herself mediates her gift through writing, channeling ancestral voices into her work.

African Cosmologies and Ancestral Practices (10:19–14:18)

• Story of the River:
  • A West African myth of the river as a threshold to the ancestors—the living visit the dead by diving into the river and returning with gifts.
  • Emphasis on honoring stories that defy Western rationality:
    • "What I don't understand doesn't mean that because I don't understand it, it's not true." (11:24)
• Contemplation as Embracing Mystery:
  • "I've always been fascinated by mystery...contemplation is one of the ways we acknowledge that life is a mystery and...we have no idea where we come from or where we're going." (13:44)

Reclaiming Historical Roots and the African Origins of Christian Contemplation (14:18–17:57)

• Black Church Historicity:
  • Recognizing African origins in Christianity breaks the narrative that Black religious history begins with slavery.
    • "To understand that historically...your streamline in Christianity and Judaism has African American progenitors in it is important." (15:31)
• Whitewashing of Saints & Bishops:
  • The loss of African identity in Christian ancestral memory diminishes both the Black church and the wider tradition.

Embodied Contemplation: Drums, Dance, and the Non-Silent Path (17:57–21:28)

• Embodiment Is Inseparable:
  • Drumming, dancing, and singing are not just performative—they are contemplative gateways.
    • "There are ways into contemplative spaces that don't include silent meditation...there's something about drumming that is very, very evocative..." (18:45)
• Private vs. Public Contemplation:
  • The deepest moments often occur away from performance—e.g., weekday gatherings, private prayers.

Personal Practices and Community Rituals (21:28–24:39)

• African Masked Stilt Dancers:
  • Dr. Holmes shares about masked dancers embodying God’s attributes, throwing juju dust, and reconnecting with ancestral roots.
    • "It was unbelievable. The sense of connection to something lost, the sense of being seen by a God who was in Africa when our ancestors were there..." (22:16)
• Challenges of Cultural Translation and Assimilation:
  • Attempts to share these rituals with white congregations often resulted in discomfort and the eventual suppression of the practice.

Recovery, Reclamation, and the Next Generations (24:39–28:57)

• Scarcity of African Practices Today:
  • Only a handful of Black churches reclaim African contemplative practices—reclamation often discouraged by institutional “gaze.”
• DNA, Complexity, and Connection:
  • Embracing multi-heritage identities softens racial boundaries and sparks curiosity for reclaiming one’s origins beyond race.

Universal Belonging and the Problem of Isolated Mindfulness (28:57–33:05)

• Kinship and Collective Identity:
  • The “other is us”—ancestry and community are fluid and interconnected.
    • "There’s always been...in African American community, that whoever was in your neighborhood could also be your family if circumstances required it.” (30:47)
• Critique of Mindfulness:
  • Mindfulness as self-help can miss the communal thrust of contemplation:
    • "There’s too much work to be done for everybody to go into a corner and heal their own nerves." (32:45)

The World as Cloister: Public Contemplatives (33:05–35:25)

• Contemplation in Everyday Life:
  • “The world is the cloister of the contemplative.” (33:05) — Centering oneself in the world rather than withdrawal.
• Expansive Paths Inward:
  • Drum circles, Sufi dancing, Buddhist practices—multiple cultural paths lead to deep contemplation.

New Forms of Contemplation: Art, Music, and Leadership (35:25–41:46)

• Joy Unspeakable—Second Edition:
  • Dr. Holmes announces updates to her book, incorporating Black Lives Matter and President Obama’s contemplative leadership style.
    • “The second edition...is being amended to take into account the contemplative aspects of the Black Lives Matter movement and...Obama.” (35:25)
• Cultural Icons as Contemplative Leaders:
  • The contemplative potential of artists like Beyoncé and Kendrick Lamar, e.g., “‘We Gonna Be All Right’—nothing more contemplative.” (36:20)
• Worship Through the Arts:
  • Holmes shares bringing jazz musicians and artists into church and seminary spaces as new forms of “testimony.”

Sacred/Secular Divide and the Future of the Church (37:29–41:46)

• Blurring Lines:
  • Argues the sacred/secular split is a “fool’s errand”—art and music are vital to spiritual renewal.
• Empowering Youth Leadership:
  • Encourages allowing young people to shape liturgy and expression; "Let them decide how they're going to do this." (39:08)
• Artists as Spiritual Leaders:
  • "Who connects to the divine more specifically than poets and artists and dancers, musicians? And so why should we impose upon them the ways in which they ought to do this work, reach this center? We ought to be listening to them." (39:58)

Mysticism and Authenticity in Vocation (41:46–55:44)

• Universal Spark of the Divine:
  • Holmes urges listeners to seek and express the unique spark within, not mimicking others' paths.
    • "Sometimes we're seeking to be the purest expression of who God wants us to be...seeking that spark, that light." (41:46)
• Vocational Discernment:
  • Holmes describes her own winding vocational path—from law to ministry—guided by mystical experiences and inner listening.

The Contemplative Heart of Black Lives Matter (47:21–51:34)

• Dancing Grief as Contemplation:
  • Describes attending Minneapolis protests and funerals, observing millennials dancing to hip hop as an embodied way to process communal pain.
    • "There was so much grief. There was no way to get it out. The funeral hadn't done it... They were dancing their grief. It was a contemplative moment." (50:13)
• Bridging Generations in Collective Mourning:
  • Holmes joined in, feeling solidarity and hope in communal dance.

Courage, Prophetic Living, and Looking Ahead (51:34–56:45)

• Fearlessness and Prophetic Voice:
  • Holmes reflects on living intuitively, often diverging from expectations and trusting the guidance she receives—even when it leads to uncertainty.
    • "I have been fearless about it, and often I've made wrong choices...But every day that I did it, I knew this isn't what I'm supposed to be doing." (52:36)
• Writing, Teaching, and Future Projects:
  • Committed to further writing and sharing mystical and contemplative wisdom, with new works and an updated online presence forthcoming.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Difference between Western and Black Contemplation (05:54):
  "In the upper room...the Holy Spirit descends on the group. Not an individual, but an assemblage..." — Dr. Holmes

• On Embracing Mystery (13:44):
  "Contemplation is one of the ways we acknowledge that life is a mystery and that we are on a planet spinning through space, and we have no idea where we come from or where we're going." — Dr. Holmes

• On Whitewashing of Christian Origins (15:31):
  "To understand that historically...your streamline in Christianity and Judaism has African American progenitors in it is important." — Dr. Holmes

• On Community as Family (30:47):
  "The other is us...whoever was in your neighborhood could also be your family if circumstances required it." — Dr. Holmes

• On the Purpose of Contemplation (32:45):
  "There's too much work to be done for everybody to go into a corner and heal their own nerves." — Dr. Holmes

• On Expressive Contemplation through Music (36:20):
  "Nothing more contemplative than the song 'We Gonna Be All Right.'" — Dr. Holmes

• On the Spark Within (41:46):
  "We're seeking to be the purest expression of who God wants us to be. However you use that language...How are you living your divine reality?" — Dr. Holmes

• On Dancing Grief (50:13): "They were dancing their grief. It was a contemplative moment." — Dr. Holmes

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:05 — Defining 'Contemplative' in the Black Church
• 07:15 — Mystical Gifts: Gullah Lineage and Family Stories
• 10:41 — African Cosmologies and Meeting Ancestors at the River
• 14:18 — Black Church Historicity and Christian Origins
• 18:45 — Drums, Dance, and the Experience of Collective Contemplation
• 21:40 — African Masked Stilt Dancers in Church Ritual
• 28:57 — The Problem with the Sacred/Secular Split and Universal Kinship
• 32:45 — Critique of Mindfulness and the Need for Communal Healing
• 33:05 — The World as Cloister / Public Contemplatives
• 35:25 — Update on Joy Unspeakable, BLM, Obama, and the Arts
• 47:29 — Black Lives Matter, Funeral Traditions, and Dancing Grief
• 52:36 — A Fearlessness in Vocation / Mystical Calling
• 56:03 — Holmes’s Future Projects and Life Post-Seminary

Final Takeaways

Dr. Holmes's remembered presence permeates every part of this conversation—her humility, wisdom, and courage to integrate the mystical, the practical, and the prophetic. She challenges listeners and faith communities to embrace the fullness of history, culture, and the body in contemplative practice, to refuse constricted Eurocentric models, and to always keep room for both mystery and joyful expression.

Suggested Pairing:
If you’d like to honor Dr. Holmes’s spirit, take her recommendation:
“Coconut lemon water—sparkling.” (57:36)

For further resources:

• Explore Dr. Holmes’s books, including Joy Unspeakable, Crisis Contemplation, and Race and the Cosmos.
• Seek out her podcast collaborations and upcoming writings.

Rest in power, Dr. Barbara Holmes. Your teaching continues to kindle the contemplative fire for new generations.