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- [00:01]
Paul Swanson
Welcome to Contemplify. I'm your host, Paul Swanson. Contemplify is where we seek to kindle the examined life for contemplatives in the world. This episode will be a rebroadcast of my conversation with Loreta Coleman Brown. Dr. Brown passed away just over a week ago. Dr. Brown was a wisdom figure in all the ways that she showed up in the world. Professor, spiritual director, teacher, mentor, loving family member.
- [00:36]
It was a few years ago that.
- [00:38]
I had the privilege of being in conversation with Dr. Loretta Coleman Brown about her book, her transformative book, what Makes yous Come? A Spiritual Walk with Howard Thurman. In honor of her passing and her ongoing wisdom that lives in the hearts of all who knew her, we offer this conversation again as a way to steep in the wisdom and presence she offered this world.
- [01:12]
Doctor Loretta Coleman Brown is a retreat leader, speaker, spiritual companion, and professor emerita of Psychology at Agnes Scott College. Professor Brown frequently speaks on contemplative spirituality and Howard Thurman. She's the author of the incredible book what Makes yous Come, A Spiritual Walk with Howard Thurman, as well as when the Heart Speaks, Discovering Inner Wisdom. She's been featured in PBS documentaries about Howard Thurman and the Black Church. She lives in Stone Mountain, Georgia. And today, Professor Brown and I talk about the life, mysticism and work of Howard Thurman, as well as his affinity for Emperor penguins. We talk about the contemplative imagination and depth of Thurman, his trust of the spirit's activity and what he called working papers. Something that I think can apply to all of us listening because it really helps us understand what makes us come alive and help delineate how the spirit is working. Through that, Professor Brown has embodied the teachings of Howard Thurman and breathes them out in her own styling and language. More than once in this conversation, Professor Brown opened a window for me that I had thought I had painted shut. That is a rare gift in any conversation. You can visit contemplify.com for the show notes on this episode and sign up for the monthly Contemplify non required reading list as well as the lo fi and hushed practice sessions. You can visit Professor Brown@loretacolemanbrown.com now join me in raising a glass to my guest, Loretta Coleman Brown.
- [03:05]
Professor Brunt, I'm so happy to be here with you right now and to.
- [03:10]
Talk about your wonderful work and just.
- [03:13]
Who you are in the world.
- [03:14]
So thank you for being here on Codemplify.
- [03:16]
Loretta Coleman Brown
Well, thank you for the invitation.
- [03:19]
Paul Swanson
My Pleasure. I want to start with a few questions. Getting to know you and letting all those listening get to know you, if they aren't already familiar with your work. But before I get into some of those questions about your own formation, I want to ask you kind of a bridge question between your book and also you I'd love to get your take of. What do you think that you can learn from a jack pine Seed?
- [03:48]
Loretta Coleman Brown
Oh, it's so funny that you would ask that question because Howard Thurman has a meditation about the jack pine seed and how it takes an enormous amount of heat in order for it to be able to germinate. And it's probably indicative of my life and my own spiritual awakening. I have been through a lot of adversity, mostly physical, medical, and I think many of those ordeals, many of those times in hospitals, gave me an opportunity to connect with the presence in a different way. And at the time, I, you know, I was somewhat terrified by the experience. But as I reflect on it, nearly, you know, 29 years later, so I understand that it was definitely essential to my spiritual awakening. So my. My life is epitomized in A Jack Pine Seed. Needed a lot of. Needed a lot of. A lot of adversity, a lot of challenge in order for me to actually produce a book like I did.
- [05:27]
Paul Swanson
Yes, thank you for that. One of my favorite questions to ask is if someone were going to teach a class on the formation of Professor Laurita Coleman Brown, what would be the three mandatory works? That could be readings, that could be art pieces, they could be places. But three mandatory works that formed you, that would definitely be on that syllabus.
- [05:55]
Loretta Coleman Brown
Wow, that's a question. I think that definitely, In terms of places, it would be outside in nature. Certainly have been one who was drawn to being outside because I found it most peaceful and serene. And in terms of formation, other, Other, other aspects of my formation, I would probably also list. A Course in Miracles, which is a book that a lot of people probably are not familiar with and, you know, a bit on the controversial side and think one other possibility. It's hard for me to select one other, say, book on the syllabus. Perhaps journaling would be the other aspect. One of the things on the syllabus that it's so important to reflect on life and on oneself and on one spiritual journey. And I certainly have been formed a lot from what I have. What has been revealed to me as I have journaled about the various events as well as the various books and movies and artwork, et cetera. That I've encountered during my time.
- [07:59]
Paul Swanson
That's fantastic. It's so clear from your work how deeply you embrace contemplative practices as a way of being in the world. When did you start journaling? When did that become a part of your rhythm?
- [08:13]
Loretta Coleman Brown
I would say, at least on a regular basis, because I did some diary writing, as many teenagers do, of course, but I would say that someone, somewhere in my early 20s, I started journaling. And I continue. I'm not a daily journaler, but I believe that it's important to record as well as to engage with the kinds.
- [08:51]
Paul Swanson
Of.
- [08:55]
Loretta Coleman Brown
Activities or, and, or some, some wisdom that I might have read somewhere or a conversation that I might have had. I just love to be able to. To in the early mornings really think and reflect about what's been. Been, as I said, revealed to me and, or how it is that I'm thinking about the world or the spirits that journey with me and my family or in my neighborhood. And so, yeah, I started journaling probably sometime in college and have continued to do so.
- [09:49]
Paul Swanson
Okay. I love the way that what I hear you saying is just as all of life, as you experience all of life, it all kind of meets you at the page, whether it's film, whether it's spiritual experiences that you are processing or in conversation with. And I think journaling is one of those things that doesn't get talked about enough as a spiritual practice because it can seem to self focus. But you know, as you say in your book, self reflection and self knowledge is one of the keys to the spiritual journey. What other practices help you, help ground you in your own daily rhythm or weekly rhythm or whatever it might be? Are there other practices that you lean on?
- [10:39]
Loretta Coleman Brown
Absolutely. So I am a. A person who loves to utilize the practice of morning pages from the book the Artist's Way. So on most days I will sort of dump three pages of free association or stream of consciousness on the page just to kind of clear my mind so that I can sit. Not that it always helps with the mind, but I've had a practice of, and I call it kind of quiet time with God or quiet time with the Presence. So every day I will sit typically for about 30 minutes. And I don't necessarily set a timer for 10 for 30 minutes, but just will sit for a certain amount of time. But usually I want it to be 30 minutes or more. So that's one of my practices. I also like to go outside in the morning and as I often say to people, catch a bit of stillness. I am a Still, stillness, person. And I think there's something powerful about stillness. I think it. Stillness reminds me of whatever it is, whatever images that people have of God. I think that sort of quiet, deep, pulsating energy of stillness is what holds all things together. And so oftentimes I will go outside and whether it's to garden or to walk or just to sit down and just bask in the stillness, it's one of my favorite things to do along with sitting in the wind, when I have a moment to do that. And I typically will stop about 10 minutes before the hour. And I have at least I have a. I've set a reminder on or alert on my phone to go off about 10 minutes before the hour, and I snooze it. So that about. About the top of the hour, I will take a minute or two just to connect with the Presence and to remind myself, sort of bring myself back to that same stillness that I think lives with all of lives within all of us as a way to pull myself out of the vortex of chaos, typically what the world is kind of like. And also as part of my practice is that I watch minimal news. At least over the last few years, I have watched enough news to be able to know what's going on, but probably not much more than that, because I know somebody will come tell me if it's really something important. Somehow or another, I will find out. But. So I watch minimal news. And I would love to continue to cultivate the practice of taking the same amount of time at night. But I don't always make that nighttime sit, either because I fall asleep or I have the habit of trying to do just one more thing before I go to bed. But I really would like to have at least some time in the evening to just spend some time with the Presence. Again.
- [14:50]
Paul Swanson
Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. It's so clear how your life is orientated around connection with presence. And I was really struck by what you said about sitting in the wind. I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about that practice. Is it literally going into the headwind and feeling the embrace of the wind brushing across your body?
- [15:15]
Loretta Coleman Brown
Well, you know, that started when I was a little girl. I mean, I was probably about four or five, six, I don't know. But I used to, like, I grew up in Southern California, and of course we had the Santa Ana winds there, but it was always pretty mild temperatures. And so if I saw that it was a windy day or the leaves were moving on the trees, I would just run outside and sometimes my mother would stop me and say, would you just put on a jacket or something? And I would just go sit and you know, neighbors and relatives would come by and they'd ask, what is she doing out there? And I wasn't doing anything. I was just enjoying the wind. And I was so amazed later when I read that passage in the Bible about, you know, the spirit is like the wind, it just sort of, you can't see it and you don't know where it's coming from or where it's going. And I just thought, oh wow. So and of course as, as a five year old or six year old, I didn't ever make that connection. But there was something very peaceful and serene about sitting in the wind and just letting it sort of blow through and you know, get a nice breeze. And so it was just a pastime for me. And so I've continued, you know, as long as it's not like, you know, freezing or the wind is. It's dangerous to be out in the wind because we're like having, you know, the tail of a hurricane or you know, part of a tornado. But if I can catch a nice breeze, I'm loving it. And like I said, there's something very peaceful and serene about, you know, wind and breeze. And you know, I sort of watch the trees and you know, there's just so much that you can learn from just observing and being a part of that sense of nature. I know when I go and retreat and I usually take one or two and sometimes possibly three silent retreats a year and one of the things that I like to do is to just watch nature. You know, watch butterflies or, you know, bees going from one flower to the next, or ants, you know, building a house somewhere. It's just great sometimes to just stop and watch nature as it is. All the time, you know, all of this stuff is going on out there. I mean, we're running around, you know, upset about this, that or the other. And this sense of nature, these things are just, they continue to go on every year without fail.
- [18:28]
Paul Swanson
What an image. I'm enamored and resonate with. The way that you respect and also resound and connect with gusts of wind and the force of wind, the invisible yet strong presence of it. And what you were just saying too about watching little critters or watch nature unfold as it will reminded me of this morning. I, I have an 8 year old daughter and I will walk her to meet up some friends so she could walk the west the rest of the way to school with them. But the meeting place is right in front of a neighbor's garden and like to watch, you know, a bunch of 8 year olds see bees sleeping inside of sunflower and just how excited they get. It is the most serene, calming grounding practice I have, watching children discover natural rhythms in the world. And I was just reminded of that as you were talking about your own practices and how so much of it is paying attention to what is unfolding before us. Right. Like it's. There's so much there. And I love the way that you cultivate that sense of presence in the presence of presence and how that exudes itself through the natural world. So thank you for highlighting that.
- [19:54]
Loretta Coleman Brown
Yes. You know, oftentimes I taught at the University of Colorado in Boulder for 10 years, and it was one of the most beautiful settings for campus. And I was sad because so many students were racing from one place to the next and not seeing these beautiful. They called them the flatirons, but mountains right there in front of you. So I think a lot of times we get caught up in, you know, our crazy pace and we just miss so much of life by racing from one thing to the next.
- [20:38]
Paul Swanson
Yeah, well said. Well said. Well, I'm so grateful for your presence here and for talking about your latest book, what Makes yous Come, A Spiritual Walk with Howard Thurman, a fellow nature lover and nature mystic like yourself. I actually want to begin in that vein. You talk about how Howard Thurman lauded emperor penguins. What was it about emperor penguins that Thurman was so inspired by?
- [21:10]
Loretta Coleman Brown
You know, Thurman was always about community and about people working together. And I think his intrigue with emperor penguins had a lot to do with the fact that both males and females took care of the egg, that they took turns searching for food and, you know, keeping the egg warm. And it was just that idea that both parents were working together to make sure that they brought this life into the world. And so. And he. I mean, he just, he liked that idea and these penguins so much. He used to paint penguins. Used to. Actually, that was one of.
- [22:04]
Paul Swanson
Oh, really?
- [22:05]
Loretta Coleman Brown
Yes. And so there are these paintings that he did of penguins. And so. Yes. And I think then people started sending him penguins, you know, became a collector of penguins. But anywhere where he saw an harmonious connection, whether it was a people or something happening in nature, it was just like a sign to him that there is this underlying oneness and this connection of all things. And why can't we pay more attention to that and. And learn from that for, you know, to make our lives more peaceful and joyful. So, yes, he liked the interworkings of penguin couples, particularly the emperor penguins.
- [23:04]
Paul Swanson
We have penguins now at our zoo here in New Mexico. And they are such beautiful creatures to watch. The way that they do relate to one another and just their daily habits, it's fascinating. And, you know, there's so much of how I understand Howard Thurman's kind of mystic presence and vision. The world is connected to nature. That tree that held a special space for him in his childhood, and then also his use of rivers as metaphors for the journey. What do you think it was about that particular tree and rivers as a metaphor that spoke to Thurman's kind of groundedness in his own life, and then also his using rivers as a teaching tool. What is it about the natural world that offered so much to him as a places of expression?
- [23:58]
Loretta Coleman Brown
You know, in some ways, I think Thurman was born a mystic. And I don't know if, you know, people become mystics over time or you're born a mystic, but definitely born a mystic and a contemplative, no doubt in my mind. And he, I think due to the fact that he lost his father at an early age, about seven years old, he found that nature kind of embraced him, and so he spent a lot of time outside. He was raised in Daytona Beach, Florida, so walking along the ocean or rowing up the Halifax river or sitting in his backyard with his back against an oak tree. And for. And he says that, you know, he. He and the oak tree communicated with each other, that he. He felt like the oak tree understood him. And that's where he took so many of his joys and his sorrows. And, you know, in some ways, he felt quite terrorized by his environment, which is not surprising, being raised in the early 1900s in Jim Crow south, and so was very much concerned that something was going to happen to him. And he says, so he turned inside to God, which he later learned was meditating. So he started meditating at about eight or nine years old next to this oak tree. And then he, of course, has lots of other commentary about oak trees and trees in general, particularly in terms of how they can bend in a storm and not necessarily break, how rooted they were. And that he felt like that there was something in them that was able to withstand the sort of tempest is the word he used of being outside in that kind of environment. But he felt like that there was something in him and all people that is rooted and can withstand the tempest. Of life, and that he wanted people to be aware of. Of that rootedness. Likewise, he had a fascination with rivers, and he had this notion that all rivers were really making their way back to the sea, which, as far as he was concerned, symbolized the source with a capital S. And that they were also ways to think about one's life. That sometimes even riverbanks are shaped by, you know, how much water is passing through at any particular time. And it was sort of a reminder of, you know, what is it that is shaping us as we go along our spiritual journey. And then he also felt like that there were times of drought in rivers as well as times of overflowing in rivers, and that these were all connected to, you know, in times of drought, perhaps maybe we needed to step back and look at what it is that perhaps, maybe we could kind of let go of and in times of flooding to also think about how we are connected to the source and perhaps maybe also think about what it is that may be overflowing. So he loved nature just in a way that I don't think I've ever seen anyone talk about it, and in a really practical way, you know, in a way that any person could relate to if they were just to step outside. And it's because he was, you know, some people might call him, at least I had in an earlier article, called him an ordinary mystic. He really wasn't an ordinary mystic, but he was a mystic who was not living in a cloister community, in a religious community. So he was living among people and using his observations of things like nature and people and other other mystics, etcetera, to help spark ideas about the presence in others. So. And, you know, some people call him a nature mystic. I think for Thurman, he felt like there were different kinds of mystics. And I'm not sure if he would have first. I'm not even sure if he would. I don't think he ever called himself a mystic, but he. He clearly would follow, fall into that category. But he was also heavily influenced by the Quaker, you know, tradition of mysticism. And so I think a lot of times people are not exposed to these various kinds of mystics. We sort of think mystic must be someone, you know, again in a religious or cloistered community who are praying all day. And, you know, he wanted to help us to understand that that's not the only model of mysticism that's available.
- [30:16]
Paul Swanson
What a gift. And thank God he was doing that, because I will sometimes, for myself, I'll be offended when Humans are compared to computers. Like I feel like, you know, I don't know. There's something that takes away the mystery of the spiritual experience when I'm a human as compared to a computer. But with Howard Thurman, his metaphors are always so natural. They're always embedded in the natural world that, that I take such joy knowing that my life is being compared to a river, going back to the source or being rooted like a tree. And it helps me sense my own blossoming and becoming in that because of the metaphors allow for a richness in it and not some sort of square earth destroying concept. And I just always find his metaphors are such full of fecundity. And that is a gift that I think all great teachers have. And when it's a mystic teacher, the results are endless. I'm curious to ask you about this groundedness and this way in which Thurman would turned towards this interior connection with the divine, with mystery. And he had such a deep appreciation for a sense of calling and for what was his to do and what was not his to do. And there is such a powerful quiet strength in knowing how you are being called to serve. And I think just from some of the examples of Thurman's life that you write so beautifully about, about being kind of the wisdom elder of the civil rights movement without being on the front lines per se, to giving up an amazing position in a university to go start a church or a fellowship, interfaith fellowship, like all of these things feel uniquely curated to what was his to do in the world? What are your thoughts on how one might follow that lead from Howard Thurman and I think from yourself, from the way that you talk about your own practices within being a spiritual director, to listen to that still quiet voice or to what Thurman called the sound of the genuine. What kind of guidance do you offer folks as they seek to hear that calling in their own life of what is theirs unique gift to do in service to the world?
- [33:00]
Loretta Coleman Brown
You know, it is challenging at times even for myself to either hear that voice and not allow it to be overwritten by our. Our own. Unconscious sort of issues and, or habits. But Thurman and he got, you know, he. He actually wrote about this idea of inner authority and how important it is once one understands that they are a holy child of God, that they have a sense of agency, they can say yes or no to anything. And he, I think, became very clear that there were certain things that he was being called to do and was able to Sort of silence, all the criticism that he would get every time he made a decision that other people didn't like, and especially about not marching during the civil rights movement, for example. But he said that his. His calling, his. His role was to hold the spiritual space for those who were called to the street or called for that kind of work. But. But that was not his calling. And I. It was. You know, in some ways, when I first read that, I realized that it gives. It gave me a sense of freedom in some way to be able to say no to. To certain things that people may or may not want me to do. I think I've always sort of felt that in some ways, But I know that like many of us, we are brought up to be concerned about what other people think. So, you know, that's typically one of my overrides, as I call it. I call them overrides from sort of like an override of the guidance that you're getting from the spirit, from the still, small voice. But Thurman became very adept at following that inner sense. And there's a great story about him. When he was being recruited for Boston University, the president kept calling him, saying, well, have you made a decision? Have you made a decision? And he would say, well, I'm waiting for a word in my heart. So he was not going to allow anybody to rush him or to. To. To move him in some way that he was. Did not feel like that was part of his calling. But I. I have to also say that Thurman had a good, solid grounding that he got really, from his grandmother and his mother, you know, a sense of, you know, from his mother, that he was always going to be cared for by God, and from his grandmother, that he was a holy child of God. And when that becomes the source of your identity, as opposed to what other people are saying about you, that puts you in a whole other territory. So I do believe that he had a gift of being able to hear and to connect with the presence, probably even more so than many people, but to also execute that and to stand like the tree, you know, grounded in what he knew and what he believed. So I think for the rest of us, it's really like a practice. It can become a spiritual practice. So if somebody asks you to do something, I often share with the people that I meet with in spiritual direction, companion, that sometimes you need to take a pause and consult with the spirit. Now, in my own life, you know, I have. I call it putting out a question. I have put out several questions to the spirit about, well, what should I do about this? Or, you know, et cetera. And I usually get an answer. But the problem is that most people don't want an answer, which is why they don't put the question out.
- [37:43]
Paul Swanson
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:45]
Loretta Coleman Brown
You know, they sort of want to do what they want to do, so they're not going to put the question out there and get an answer that they don't want to hear. And sometimes the answer is, yes, you must have this heart transplant, or yes, you need to move to Minnesota, whatever it is, you know, so. So a lot of people won't put the question out there, but I have done that and have gotten an answer, and I had to live. Live through the answer. So he. I think he had a similar approach. He would put the question out there, and sometimes, you know, the answer was yes, and sometimes the answer was no. We certainly don't want to hear no if it's something we want to do.
- [38:31]
Paul Swanson
Right. Yeah, we really love a good rubber stamping spirit that just rubber stamps what we have said and put out to the world. Yeah, I'm going to do this. That's fantastic. You talked about Thurman's sense of inner authority, and I'm reminded of that story where he has a vision after Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Was stabbed. To go speak to Dr. King, and the confidence to follow through on a vision like that, I think is common and uncommon. I don't think everyone talks about that. But when I think about the results of Howard Thurman going to talk to Dr. King and encouraging him to take more space and what unfolds from that experience, it is staggering for what became of that. I wonder if you could relay that story and any sort of grace notes you want to add along to that. But it's such a powerful story to me.
- [39:36]
Loretta Coleman Brown
Yes. So in 1958, Dr. Martin Luther King was engaged in a book signing in Harlem, and a woman, mentally ill woman, stabbed him. And so Howard Thurman started having these visions of him, you know, sort of these. This. And this is. This vision thing had happened before with his sister many years prior to that, getting visions of his sister and later finding out that she was ill kind of thing. So in this case, he had a vision. And so he told his wife, he says, look, I gotta go talk to him, find him and talk to him. And he found him in Harlem Hospital. And he went to him and he said, you know, I know that you've started this movement, but I think this movement has taken on a life of its own. And I would hope that as you recover, that you will take some additional time for some silence and some solitude so that you will know what it is that is your role in this. And it is said that it's one of the few times that Dr. King actually took any time off. And so he took some, some extra time. And it was then, after then that he went to India to study nonviolence and to put a wreath at the grave of Mahatma Gandhi, who had already passed away. And it is extraordinary. There are just these moments when you realize that. And I have a chapter on what I call sacred synchronicities. But you know, like these things being in place for the next thing to happen. So you wonder, would we have had Martin Luther King and this form of the movement had we not had Howard Thurman? So let me just back up for a second and just add a little bit more to this. So Howard Thurman's second wife, his first wife died from tuberculosis, but his second wife, Sue Bailey Thurman, and Alberta King, who was the mother of Martin Luther King Jr. Were roommates in high school. And it makes you wonder whether or not the spirit was at work long before there was a Martin Luther King Jr. So you've got these two women that know each other. And we know that when the Thurmans came back from India and after meeting with Gandhi in 1936, that one of their first stops was to have dinner with the Kings. And Martin Luther King Jr. Would have been probably about 7 years old at the time. We don't know whether or not he was at the dinner or what. But certainly the Thurman shared their excitement about the sort of utilizing those non violent, the nonviolent philosophy in the movement here. And then we also know though that Howard Thurman was writing and speaking about Jesus as a leader of a nonviolent religion as early as the late 1920s, early 30s. And so he, he was thinking about this sort of non violence. Then he gets invited to go to India and then he talks it, talks it over with Gandhi and then he brings back all of that excitement with him back to the United States. But we know formally that Martin Luther King Jr. Met Howard Thurman on the pages of his classic book, which I believe every person should read, Jesus the Disinherited. It's like, don't let the title turn you off. It's just an extraordinary book.
- [43:53]
Paul Swanson
Yes.
- [43:54]
Loretta Coleman Brown
And he and wrote a paper on it, by the way, in seminary. And then of course they crossed over at Boston University and Dr. King also listened to many sermons that Thurman gave at Marsh Chapel there and took notes. And so, you know, the influence is enormous. And then of course, you have the incident that you spoke of, of him, going to talk to him there. So it's almost as if you don't have to be a organizer, you don't necessarily have to be marching to have a extraordinary influence on something. Because even in the training of some of the marchers, this idea of centering down, going inside and, you know, finding that place of peace before you go out, you know, and really trying to stay centered in that because you're going out to meet violent confrontation was very instrumental to that training process and to having people maintain a sense of composure when all of that was happening. So I think it's amazing how the Spirit works and brings these events and people together in ways that we would have never thought could happen.
- [45:20]
Paul Swanson
Agreed. That's so well said to think about that. Centering down that groundedness is the contemplative in the prophetic, it's the mystical activist. It's that pairing that is so needed to be able to make authentic change and transformation in the world. And I think that chapter in this book as a whole really speaks to that in a way that this whole bodied life of doing what is yours to do, but also the ripple effects of what does it mean to be a part of. I love the old language of the mystical body of Christ. What does that mean to be a part of it? I may just be a pinky, but that pinky offers some balance or some stability in a way that I might not be able to see. And I feel like that story just speaks to the. You take that one meeting, you go back, you ripple through the future, and you go back to the roommates of Alberta King and Sue Bailey Thurman. It's incredible. And the level of trust to look at life in that way is, I think, is remarkable.
- [46:31]
Loretta Coleman Brown
And then, of course, we have this opportunity to talk about inner authority, capital I, capital A. And you see that in the event, when Dr. King is leading a group of people over the Edmund Pettus Bridge and he stops and he kneels down and prays, and he gets back up and turns everybody around. That is just such an extraordinary moment of contemplation, meeting, action, because apparently what he heard was not today. One of the things that I wanted people to know in this book, besides the fact that the Spirit is available to all of us and wants to help us, is that when we work in concert with the Spirit, I Think we can take things much further along than if we're trying to do it ourselves. And, you know, I want to encourage young activists that cultivating a spiritual life of some of some kind is so important, because otherwise it's not sustainable. You're going to get burned out. And there's got to be some purpose, some. Some bigger purpose for your work besides the fact that you're. You're upset and, you know, you want justice now. I mean, it's. You know, there's. It's like. And for Thurman, you know, his idea was that there is a oneness to the universe which includes us and nature and everything and anything that is blocking that ability of the one of us to kind of reconcile and come back together needs to be addressed, which is how he was able to then link mysticism with social change. So when you go inside to God, you should come up in community or oneness, and there should be some kind of stirring within you, like a moral stirring, to work on these areas where things are not harmonious. They are not the ways in which certainly Thurman believed God created them to be. So he was, you know, he wasn't not just so focused. You know, his attitude was that racial reconciliation is wonderful, but he was not in it because it was the right thing to do. He knew that you could not have union with God without it. So it takes it to a whole nother level. You know, it's not just, you know, Thurman was never on the surface level. He was always, you know, much deeper than that. And so he was seeing a whole nother thing about, you know, trying to get us to return to the oneness was, which is what it was really about for him, as opposed to, you know, working out, you know, some particular issues in the United States.
- [49:40]
Paul Swanson
Yeah, much better. Yeah. That's one of the things I so appreciate about Howard Thurman is you could take anything unlike the linear path of issues context of today, that he would also open up the trap door that would drop you in to making sure that you don't forget the depth dimension of what is the connection for the overflowing. That can have significant impact on the linear, on the moments, on the context, on struggles and issues at the moment that they both matter. And I so appreciate the way that just exudes in your book. There was one piece I was really struck by towards the end on working paper. I wonder if you could explain that concept. And then I would ask you, do you have a working paper?
- [50:26]
Loretta Coleman Brown
Well, let's just say I Haven't reviewed mine recently. So introduces this concept in his book Deepest the Hunger. And he suggests that every person should have a working paper, you know, some ideas about how they are living. And, you know, he was one to. Especially those people that were, you know, working in the civil rights movement who would come for him for, you know, counsel and advice. He would ask them the deep questions like, who are you and what do you want, really? And so he sort of felt like you need to be thinking about why are you here and what is your purpose and how do you know who you are? And where did that come from? So he really felt like every person should have a working paper, you know, with a few questions that they needed to answer of themselves on it and that you needed to revisit it from time to time, revise it. He said to consider the changing conditions as well as other people. So, for example, and I have to give credit to Professor Greg Ellison, who's at Emory, the School of Theology, who wrote a lovely paper on the working paper. And basically, and this is such a great example, you know, he. He achieved tenure. And then it was kind of like, then what? Right? And it was almost as if he was sort of going through. He realized he was going through the motions of a person who had just been kind of, you know, had just kind of jumped into the sort of sea of regularity. So, you know, you get tenure, and then I guess you write another book so you can get promoted to, you know, full professor. And he had to stop. And so then, as he was thinking and searching about this, he contacted Walter Fluker, who is one of the preeminent Thurman scholars, and said, I noticed that in this book he mentions working paper. Do you know of. And so it was some unpublished paper that listed kind of the questions that a person would ask, you know, if they were putting together their own working paper. But I started my working paper, and I must admit that I have not looked at it recently. This has been the year of book release and promotion. So I've been trying to keep up with my life. But I am aware that, for example, one of the things I know I'm here is to, as people have repeated back to me, to midwife the spirit in other people, to really. To really help people understand that they're walking around with all the spiritual resources that they need. And it's really a matter of devoting themselves to listening and paying attention to where it is that the spirit is guiding them in other places. I might call it a gps, God's Positional system. We have it, but oftentimes we're not paying attention to it or we're not interacting with it, or we're not, you know, we may hear the guidance but not follow it or trust it. And of course, I think part of the issue as well is that as you go along this sort of path of listening, trusting, having some sense of patience, there's also the surrender at the end. And most people don't want to surrender. And Thurman said a true mystic is a person who has yielded their nerve center to God. So even in the day to day, and I mentioned this earlier, I know I need to go sit for a few minutes at the end of the day, but what am I doing? I'm doing one more thing before I go to bed. I hear the guidance, but I'm doing something else. It's really a matter of, I think, awareness and practice.
- [55:16]
Paul Swanson
Wow. Well, thank you for sharing that, for your vulnerability and how you're still working in the working paper. I was very inspired to approach that in the coming days because I think what a lovely centerpiece to be able to kind of wrestle with as one discerns next steps or their own vocational call and place in life. So first again, I want to thank you so much for your time and presence today, Professor Brown, and also for writing this marvelous book that makes Howard Thurman come alive in our times again through his eternal wisdom of what makes you come alive? A spiritual walk with Howard Thurman. Professor Brown, I always like to close these conversations by asking a question of embodiment of. If you were going to pair our conversation with any drink, anything from water to whiskey, what would go well with a conversation on your book on Howard Thurman? What makes you come alive?
- [56:18]
Loretta Coleman Brown
Well, of course, you know, I don't drink alcohol for a variety of reasons, but I think a good mojito, I.
- [56:29]
Paul Swanson
Like the side of that.
- [56:31]
Loretta Coleman Brown
There's something very, you know, like with some fresh mint and you know, the whole, the whole nine yards, I, I, you know, it's kind of like it reminds you of being outside and being alive. Right. So yeah, that was the first thing that came to mind. A good mojito, Professor Brad.
- [56:54]
Paul Swanson
I love that. Thank you so much.
- [57:00]
Thank you for listening to Contemplify. May it refresh you and be a contemplative refuge. Perhaps maybe a moment or two will walk with you along the rest of your day. You can slide over to contemplify.com to find the show notes for this episode, including links to the resources mentioned in this conversation. And while you're there, you can also sign up for the monthly Contemplify Non.
- [57:25]
Required Reading list, which I tee up.
- [57:27]
With a contemplative musing, then reflect on.
- [57:30]
A few books that have come across.
- [57:31]
My desk and wink at the art and articles stilling my soul. If you're enjoying contrast, please rate and.
- [57:42]
Review it on your podcast player.
- [57:44]
The Internet is a huge place. This helps spread the contupplative cheer. The theme song for Contemplify is called Langside by Charles Ends and Darren Hoveus. Fellas, thanks as always.
- [57:59]
For season four of Catoplify.
- [58:01]
I want to offer a nod. This is not an ad, but a.
- [58:05]
Nod of a appreciation.
- [58:07]
This nod goes out to the center for Spiritual Imagination. The center for Spiritual Imagination exists to deepen and enrich human relationships with God, self and neighbor in new and ancient ways. I can say with certainty that some of you listening the offerings from the center for Spiritual Imagination are exactly what.
- [58:29]
You have been longing for.
- [58:31]
Just check it out@spiritualimagination.org and as always, I am looking forward to bringing you more musings and more conversations with contemplatives in the world here in the near future. Until then, be well.
- [58:57]
Loretta Coleman Brown
Sa.