Can Evolution Explain Our Politics? Nicholas Wade Thinks So

Conversations With Coleman | October 13, 2025

Guest: Nicholas Wade – Author, science journalist; former New York Times science writer
Host: Coleman Hughes

Episode Overview

In this episode, Coleman Hughes sits down with Nicholas Wade to discuss Wade's controversial views on the intersection of genetics, evolution, and the development of political and social systems. They probe contentious topics such as the biology of race, the evolutionary roots of political ideology, the function of the family and tribe in human society, and the limits those roots may impose on modern governance, especially concerning democracy versus autocracy. The conversation deftly weaves together science, history, and philosophy, questioning how deeply nature can and should shape our institutions and beliefs.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Human Genome and the Biology of Race

Timestamps: 02:01–11:26

• Significance of the Human Genome Project:
  Wade explains how the completion of the human genome sequencing became a fundamental tool in understanding human evolution and the population structure of humanity.

  "We are still midway through the task of trying to understand what all these genes mean and what they do and what their function is." (03:05, Nicholas Wade)

• Race as Population Clusters:
  Coleman summarizes prevailing genetic findings: human populations do cluster by genetics along lines that resemble conventional racial groupings, but with significant overlap.

  "There is clustering that roughly accords with the lay concept of race... but those clusters bleed into each other to the point where... there are no hard boundaries." (07:21, Coleman Hughes)

• Societal Use vs. Scientific Basis:
  Wade critiques the arbitrary nature of racial categories used in public policy and reiterates that, although biologically minor, these clusters can play key roles culturally and administratively.

  "Races are not distinct... The degree of difference between various human races... is very small. And in biological terms, I think they're wholly insignificant." (09:17, Nicholas Wade) "Our census categories... are in a mess because Hispanic is not a racial category... The three main [races]... are valid to some extent." (10:12, Nicholas Wade)

2. Dangers and Utility of Racial Categorization

Timestamps: 11:26–15:15

• International Approaches:
  Coleman references France and Spain, where government collection of racial data is illegal, exploring whether this is a model worth considering.

• Temptation for Misuse:
  Coleman cautions that racially-based data, while potentially useful, has historically been abused in harmful ways.

  "It's like Tolkien's ring, it's too powerful and it shouldn't be used by anyone for any reason. That is, racial categorization." (13:22, Coleman Hughes)

• A Case for Responsible Use:
  Wade advocates for careful, regulated use in societies with strong anti-discrimination laws:

  "I think I would favor a more relaxed view. It's not as bad as the One Ring with power that no man can wield. It's just information that we can handle in a serious and responsible way..." (14:32, Nicholas Wade)

3. Controversy Surrounding "A Troublesome Inheritance"

Timestamps: 15:15–17:44

• Wade reflects on backlash to his 2014 book, feeling the criticism lacked substantive scientific rebuttal and was rooted more in academic fear of touching taboo subjects.

  "The main attack... was a letter signed by 100 geneticists... but they didn't cite a single factual error." (15:55, Nicholas Wade)

4. The Thesis of “The Origin of Politics”: Evolution and Social Organization

Timestamps: 17:44–20:14

• Against the "Blank Slate":
  Wade critiques the view that culture wholly shapes humans, with no genetic component.

  "This is a deeply mistaken view... Evolution, which is very concerned with our survival... has indeed shaped our social behavior in many ways." (18:31, Nicholas Wade)

• Genetically Shaped Institutions:
  From family, tribe, gender roles, to behaviors underpinning warfare and trade—the genome’s invisible hand is at work.

5. Human Nature and Political Systems: The Boundaries of the Possible

Timestamps: 20:14–26:22

• Constraints on Political Experimentation:
  Coleman synthesizes Wade’s view: only a small subset of possible political systems reliably work because most are incompatible with evolved human nature.

  "If there's a conflict between our political ideologies and the rules that evolution has set, then we're going to get into deep trouble." (19:26, Nicholas Wade) "Most of our political systems are by and large compatible with human nature... There are some political systems that people have tried... that are incompatible." (20:57, Nicholas Wade)

• Historical Case Studies:

  • Israeli Kibbutzim: Collective experiments that attempted to abolish family failed over generations due to the strength of parental bonds.

    "They arranged that by having all goods in common, and having the kibbutz raise the children... but it ran so against the grain of human nature that it didn't last..." (21:59, Nicholas Wade)

  • China’s Shift Away from Collectivization: Incentive structure must align with basic self-interest; detaching reward from personal/familial labor leads to collapse in motivation (and productivity).

  • Corruption as Kin Preference:
    Meritocratic Western societies try to suppress what, in most of history, was the norm—favoring kin—illustrating significant cultural overlay on biology.

6. The Persistence (and Suppression) of Tribalism

Timestamps: 26:22–32:59

• Suppression and Regulation of Tribalism:
  Modern societies forcibly regulate kin preferences to build viable, scaleable polities. Tribalism is replaced by nationalism and legal frameworks, though the instinct persists beneath the surface.

  Coleman: "Have we replaced classic old school tribalism with political tribalism? ...the instinct to form tribes... has it simply been replaced by political tribes?" (29:45)

• Wade's Response:
  The tribe, as a real political unit, has been succeeded by the nation-state, with modern "tribalism" (e.g. political parties) a metaphorical holdover.

• Downsides of Atomization:
  Both agree that breaking down extended kin networks has led to social isolation, loneliness, and possibly lower birth rates.

  "Our modern societies are far more productive... but there are severe downsides... whether or not this is connected with our declining fertility rates, I'm not sure... the breakup of the family and declining rates of marriage probably have a lot to do with this." (32:59, Nicholas Wade)

7. Evolutionary Psychology and the Political Spectrum

Timestamps: 36:16–39:54

• “Should Evolutionary Insight Make Someone More Liberal or Conservative?”
  Evolution predisposes us somewhat toward conservative solutions—because it is “backward-looking”—but successful societies need both the conservative (preserving stability) and liberal (pursuing innovation) temperaments.

  "When you're looking at things from an evolutionary perspective, lots of findings will seem to lean to the conservative side... But the other side... society... has to innovate as its environment changes. So... we need both kinds of politics." (37:10, Nicholas Wade)

• Heritability of Political Attitudes:
  Approximately 40% of the variation in political leanings is genetic, though not attributable to any one gene. Earliest correlates: differences in fear response, more generally a constellation of “little nudges.”

8. Fertility, Modernity, and Religion

Timestamps: 39:54–50:45

• High-Fertility Subcultures as Demographic "Canaries":
  Coleman notes spikes in birth rates among the ultra-Orthodox in Israel and the Amish in America, questioning whether such trends might reshape national politics.

• The Problem of Declining Fertility:
  Wade doubts insular, high-birthrate subcultures can offset general population decline. Instead, the solution requires addressing systemic issues—mainly, societal and economic structuring of women's roles, marriage rates, and work-family balance.

  "We need some kind of revolution... that goes profoundly to the nature of the family and to the nature of men and women's roles and their respective careers..." (44:53, Nicholas Wade)

• Coleman's Theory:
  Economic growth and increasing opportunities mean the relative appeal of having children has dropped, as "the world becomes a playground" and parenthood remains unchanged—a “Baumol effect.”

  "The appeal of having a family and being a father or a mother has gone down relative to how much fun you can be having as an unattached single person." (47:47, Coleman Hughes)

• Religion as a Pronatalist Force:
  Wade recounts the Georgian Orthodox Church's dramatic success in raising local birth rates by offering religious incentives.

9. Implications for Foreign Policy and State Formation

Timestamps: 50:45–60:31

• Limits of Cultural Transplantation:
  Human societies are inherently prone to conflict ("warlike and bellicose"). Stable international order requires a strong power (like the current US hegemony) to play “policeman”; abandoning this would mean returning to the law of the jungle.

  "You do need to be an interventionist... Because if you don't, the result will be warfare. Given that this is the default state." (54:20, Nicholas Wade)

• Monarchy vs. Democracy:
  Monarchies/autocracies dominate where robust, impersonal institutions have not yet formed. Exporting Western democracy has repeatedly failed where societies remain fundamentally tribal.

  "Autocracy has been the default political organization for most of our history, and it's very successful and effective... You simply cannot impose [Western institutions] on other people." (57:10, Nicholas Wade)

• Tribalism as a Barrier to Democratic Institutions:
  Without "solving" tribalism—i.e., building supra-tribal loyalty and robustly trusted institutions—stable democracy is unlikely to take hold.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Scientific Taboos:

  "The academic community was too frightened to talk about it. And most of them went into a sort of self denying mode and said race has no biological basis, it's purely cultural, which is simply untrue." (16:34, Nicholas Wade)

• On Political Heritability:

  "Surprisingly, political tendencies have a genetic component. About 40% of the variation in political attitudes has a genetic basis." (38:21, Nicholas Wade)

• On Exporting Institutions:

  "So we have learned at great pain and cost that we cannot export American institutions to the Middle East, to Iraq or other places because they need to grow organic. You simply cannot impose them on other people." (57:37, Nicholas Wade)

• On Tribalism’s Lingering Power:

  "Most of the Arab countries to which you refer are still largely tribal... They still haven't gone through that wrenching process of detribalization that the Europeans and the Chinese have done." (59:49, Nicholas Wade)

• On Evolution and Modern Malaise:

  "Evolution has designed us to live in small family groups that are closely connected to each other, that don't move geographically... Our modern societies are far more productive and they're far freer, but there are severe downsides, such as the ones you describe." (32:59, Nicholas Wade)

• A Bit of Humor:

  A: "Can't we all just get along?"
  B: "Well, sure, but clearly we don't." (54:49, 54:53)

Segment Timestamps for Reference

• [01:37] Introductory remarks, Wade’s background
• [02:01–11:26] Human genome and the concept of race
• [11:26–15:15] The function and misuse of racial categorization
• [15:15–17:44] Backlash to “A Troublesome Inheritance”
• [17:44–20:14] Main thesis of “The Origin of Politics”
• [20:14–26:22] Evolutionary constraints on political systems
• [26:22–32:59] Tribalism and its transformation
• [36:16–39:54] Genetics and the liberal-conservative divide
• [39:54–50:45] Fertility, modernity, and the influence of religion
• [50:45–60:31] Foreign policy, monarchy, and the institutions-tribalism nexus
• [60:31–End] Closing remarks and Wade’s contact info

Tone and Style

The conversation is direct, intellectually rigorous, and unflinching in broaching controversial issues. Both host and guest speak candidly, often with a dry wit and measured skepticism towards sacred cows on the political and scientific left and right.

Conclusion

This episode offers a sweeping, provocative overview of how evolutionary history may constrain social and political possibilities. Wade argues for the real, if minor, biological basis of race, the importance of recognizing evolved human nature in building political institutions, and the dangers—both of utopian experiment and of ignoring the lessons of biology and history. Hughes skillfully challenges and probes, making the conversation a must-listen for those interested in the intersection of genetics, politics, and the fate of nations.