Podcast Summary: "Can Socialism Ever Really Work?"

Podcast: Conversations With Coleman
Host: Coleman Hughes (The Free Press)
Guest: Bhaskar Sunkara (President, The Nation; Founding Editor, Jacobin)
Date: September 15, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores the central question: Can socialism ever really work, specifically democratic socialism in the US context? Coleman Hughes and Bhaskar Sunkara engage in a civil, in-depth discussion covering socialism's practicality, historical legacy, economic trade-offs, unions, housing policy, and the trajectory of left-wing politics. The episode emphasizes nuanced disagreement without veering into polemic, seeking clarity on core differences in political and economic philosophy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Remarks on Political Violence

• Coleman comments on the polarization and social media reaction to Charlie Kirk’s assassination. He reflects on historic norms against political violence and underscores the importance of nonviolent discourse as modeled in this interview.
  Notable Quote [01:36]:

  "What's clear is that the norm against political violence of all kinds is on thin ice." – Coleman Hughes

2. Bhaskar Sunkara’s Origin Story and Ideology

• Bhaskar’s background: Became a socialist at age 17, founded Jacobin magazine, and is now at The Nation.
  [04:15] Sunkara describes his journey as "pursu[ing] politics through writing and debating."
• Defining 'democratic socialist': Distinction is important due to 20th-century authoritarian versions.
  Notable Quote [06:02]:

  "It's important to distinguish and foreground the front and say, first and foremost, I'm a democrat, and it's because of my belief in democracy and egalitarianism that I'm also a socialist." – Bhaskar Sunkara

3. Marxism, Economics, and Exploitation

• Bhaskar identifies as a Marxist for the analytic toolkit but admits he doesn't subscribe to the labor theory of value as literal economic law, instead valuing it as a critique of exploitation.
  [07:40–09:04]

  "I would drop that [Marxist] framework if I no longer found it useful... I don't subscribe to the labor theory of value. I think it's more useful as a framework to understand something normative..." – Bhaskar Sunkara

• Coleman retorts with the practical: If the labor theory isn't true, can it be normatively valuable?
  [10:17]

4. Cooperatives, Entrepreneurship, and Incentives

• Can labor replace capital?
  Bhaskar: In principle, cooperatives can take on the managerial/entrepreneurial role with the right incentives, such as "sweat equity" and public banks acting as venture capitalists.
  [12:51–14:44]
• Coleman pushes on the public sector's incentive structure: How do public banks avoid inefficiency?
  Bhaskar concedes the need for "material" (not just moral) incentives and market discipline within public bodies.
  [14:44–16:10]

5. Historical Evidence: Poverty, Growth, and the State

• Coleman's stance:
  Market economies have proven poorest-to-prosperity in every natural experiment (Germanys, Chinas, etc.) — poverty reduction is his main metric. [16:10]

  "Whichever system reliably gets rid of poverty the quickest is the one I favor. Which is why I like capitalism..." – Coleman Hughes

• Bhaskar responds:
  Many growth models used “combinations of state and planning” (citing East Asia, Soviet Union, Nordics), arguing socialism is not synonymous with anti-growth.
  [17:22–19:57]

6. Public Banks vs. Venture Capital

• Are public banks just VC by another name?
  Bhaskar: Yes, but with a shared-custodian function to prevent resource inequality/distortion — e.g., public is co-owner of all capital-intensive assets to avoid labor market distortions.
  [19:57–21:33]

7. Industrial Policy and State Intervention

• Coleman draws analogy between "socialist" state intervention and Trump's industrial policies: Is shared/public ownership in high-tech (like a federal stake in Intel) socialism?
• Bhaskar differentiates:
  It's not about state intervention per se, but how predictable, stable, and growth-oriented policy is. Gives Biden’s CHIPS Act higher praise than Trump’s ad hoc tariffs.
  [21:49–24:10]

  "For me, it's not necessarily more or less state intervention is a good thing. A lot has to do with predictability..." – Bhaskar Sunkara

8. Billionaires, Inequality, and Power

• Bhaskar:
  The critique is about power as much as wealth, not simply the existence of billionaires.
  [24:13–26:28]
• Coleman’s counter:
  If billionaires were truly the problem, countries with more of them wouldn’t attract the world’s poor. [26:29–28:15]

  "All the countries with the most billionaires... are the same countries where the world's poor are banging on the doors to get in." – Coleman Hughes

• Bhaskar acknowledges:
  The worst position is to undermine capital’s function without actually replacing it (the “exploited by capitalists” apocryphal quote).
  [28:15–29:58]

9. Pathways to Post-Capitalism: Social Democracy

• How to move beyond capitalism without destruction?
  Bhaskar lauds the Nordic model: high wages & centralized bargaining + active labor policy. Cites Sweden’s “Rehn-Meidner” approach as a coherent, pro-growth, pro-equality model. [30:08–34:18]

  "I think the social Democrats of today... need to come up with... a growth model... for making the economy more wealthy and also more equal." – Bhaskar Sunkara

• Coleman's critique:
  Sector-wide wage bargaining can accelerate monopoly and stifle innovation/entry; regulation favors incumbents.

• Bhaskar:
  Centralized bargaining isn’t regulation per se—its labor with power, and union-driven wage floors are elastic, responding to firm health. [34:18–38:02]

10. Unions: Sectoral Power, Public Sector, and Trade-Offs

• Bhaskar supports unions voice at “the table” as democracy at work; Coleman is more skeptical, especially re: public sector unions blocking reform (education/police) and Hollywood unions imposing irrational constraints.
  [39:25–42:56]

  "I think unions allow workers to assert some sort of democratic power over production..." – Bhaskar Sunkara

• Coleman’s critique:
  Private sector unions can stifle productivity and nimbleness; public sector unions make reform impossible. Cites Roland Fryer's school reforms.
  [40:09–42:56]

• Bhaskar’s response:
  Unions do limit managerial autonomy—there is “a zero sum trade-off”—but offer predictability, less disruption, and in Europe, often make production smoother. [43:22–46:25]

• On job flight:
  Coleman warns cumulative “death by a thousand cuts” to dynamism.
  Bhaskar counters that US-specific veto points/localization may make American unions more unwieldy; sectoral/central European models can be better.
  [46:25–49:25]

• Do unions ever accept necessary concessions to preserve jobs?
  Bhaskar: Yes, especially in auto sector; sectoral bargaining can help unlock “win-win” reforms (e.g., single-payer freeing businesses from health costs). [49:53–52:03]

• Public sector unions: Friend or foe?
  Bhaskar is supportive, citing German policing and Finnish education; Coleman insists public sector union job protections block firing incompetents, citing public vs. private school comparison.
  [52:03–57:46]

11. Zoran Mamdani, Housing & Rent Control

• Bhaskar and Coleman agree:
  Cost of living (especially housing) is NYC’s central challenge.

• On rent control:
  Coleman: Empirical consensus—controls restrict supply, raise overall rent, harm the poor. [61:54–62:56]

  "There's a huge literature... it finds obviously, yeah, rent goes down in the rent control departments, but rent goes up in the market housing because you're restricting supply." – Coleman Hughes

• Bhaskar’s take:
  He supports building more (private and public), but defends “well-designed” rent control as one tool (e.g., delayed-onset controls after a building’s ROI realized). He stresses public housing for the middle class à la Singapore/Sweden, and robust upzoning.
  [62:56–67:58]

  "I do think there is, there's ways in which one could design better forms of rent control, but primarily I'm about building more." – Bhaskar Sunkara

• Coleman pushes:
  Any rent control, even "delayed," still accumulates supply-distorting effects. Subsidies are less distorting than price ceilings.

• Bhaskar:
  Interventions are inevitable; the focus should be on minimizing inefficiency and maximizing transparency for builders.
  [70:54–73:24]

12. Migration, Taxes, and Urban Political Coalitions

• Coleman’s critique:
  Blue states (NY/CA) lose population to red states (TX/FL), partly due to cost structures, housing restrictions, and high taxes. Is this not a referendum on “socialist” policy? [77:51–78:46]
• Bhaskar’s response:
  Yes on housing—but California’s issues are more about “mismanagement, myriad bureaucracy, localism” than socialism. Holds up Texas’s pro-growth model plus cheap energy/immigrant labor as reasons for their growth.
  Again, he argues for social democracy with centralized regulation and predictability, not bureaucratic fragmentation.
  [78:46–82:49]

13. Final Notes

• Bhaskar plugs The Nation and Jacobin for listeners who want to read more.
  [82:58]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the value of means and ends [00:00–03:23]:

  "He [MLK] argued that people assume your means are the same as your ends. So if your means are violent, they'll assume your ends are violent and they'll reject your whole policy program. I think he was right about that." – Coleman Hughes [01:57]

• Bhaskar on Democratic Socialism:

  "It's important to distinguish and foreground the front and say, first and foremost, I'm a democrat, and it's because of my belief in democracy and because of my egalitarianism that I'm also a socialist." – Bhaskar Sunkara [06:02]

• Coleman on billionaires:

  "All the countries with the most billionaires... are the same countries where the world's poor are banging on the doors to get in." – Coleman Hughes [27:52]

• Bhaskar on making socialism practical:

  "Social democratic states in the Nordic countries... built their economy on the basis of free trade and being very selective with using certain tools like tariffs and protectionism." – Bhaskar Sunkara [24:41]

• Coleman on unions:

  "Everything Roland Fryer did is impossible because of teachers unions, mainly because of public sector unions, which advocate obviously for themselves, not for the students." – Coleman Hughes [40:44]

• Bhaskar on rent control:

  "If you look at the other left or center candidates... in general, I'm all for whatever we can do to create more, more housing. When it comes to rent control, I think rent controls can be designed poorly or well..." – Bhaskar Sunkara [62:56]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00–03:23]: Coleman’s prelude on political violence and nonviolence
• [04:15–06:02]: Bhaskar's background and democratic socialism defined
• [07:40–10:17]: Marx’s analytic utility vs. labor theory of value
• [12:51–14:44]: Co-ops, entrepreneurship, and material incentives
• [16:10–19:57]: The record of capitalism/markets and state interventions globally
• [24:13–28:15]: Debate over billionaires, inequality, and the real “evil” in capitalism
• [30:08–34:18]: Nordic social democracy and strategic wage bargaining
• [39:25–43:22]: Pros/cons of unions in private and public sector contexts
• [52:03–57:46]: Public sector unions and education reform
• [61:54–67:58]: NYC housing, rent control, and upzoning
• [77:51–82:49]: Migration flows, taxes, and the vote-with-your-feet effect

Summary

This episode models nonviolent, rigorous disagreement on political economy. Bhaskar Sunkara advocates for a pragmatic, market-oriented democratic socialism rooted in historical evidence (Nordics, public-private mixes), with a focus on unions as sources of workplace democracy and social policy, and a willingness to admit trade-offs and policy nuance. Coleman Hughes maintains a consistent focus on poverty alleviation, dynamism, and the historical track record of markets, challenging left-of-center policies when they run afoul of incentives and accumulated unintended consequences.

The conversation is rich in policy detail and intellectual honesty, illuminating the modern state of socialist and capitalist thought in America.