Conversations With Coleman, S2 Ep.33

Episode Title: From the bottom up with Kmele Foster
Date: October 15, 2021
Host: Coleman Hughes
Guest: Kmele Foster

Episode Overview

This episode features Kmele Foster—co-host of The Fifth Column podcast and co-founder of Freethink—for a candid, critical, and nuanced discussion on pressing topics including anti–Critical Race Theory (CRT) laws, education and race essentialism, and gun control. The backdrop is a recent New York Times op-ed that Foster co-authored critiquing anti-CRT laws—a subject provoked by earlier "Conversations With Coleman" interviews with Christopher Rufo and David Hogg. The heart of the episode is disagreement and discovery: Coleman and Kmele unpack the complexities of race discourse, the efficacy and dangers of anti-CRT legislation, and the underlying values at stake in education and civil discourse.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Personal Reflections and Intellectual Kinship

• Coleman shares his first encounter with Kmele Foster (05:17), recalling an impassioned podcast segment years prior that validated his skepticism about America’s racial discourse on campus.
• The two reflect on their evolving friendship and mutual respect as “iron sharpening iron” (07:02).

2. Race Essentialism and Cultural Shifts in America

• Kmele’s stance: Deep concern about race essentialism eclipsing individual dignity, with race dominating discourse in politics, health, and education (14:49).
• Memorable quote:
  “The very best thing we can do for ourselves is ensure that we are regarding people as individuals... One of the worst things... is allow race to distract us, to obscure the truth.”
  —Kmele Foster (14:51)

3. The Problem of Anti-CRT Laws: Efficacy, Consequences, and Clarity

How Widespread Is “CRT Indoctrination”?

• Both hosts note the problem of anecdote-driven claims about CRT in schools, lacking reliable data about prevalence or severity (13:00).

Critique of Anti-CRT Legislation

• Kmele argues: These laws risk being “a blunt instrument” that undermines the aims of education in a liberal society, particularly by being vague, overbroad, and chilling necessary classroom inquiry (18:00, 22:00).
• The New York Times op-ed (co-authored by Kmele) pushes for constructive curricular reform and critical thinking over legislation.

What Should (and Shouldn’t) Happen in the Classroom?

• Areas of legitimate concern: No teacher should indoctrinate or degrade students by race—Coleman and Kmele agree (26:50), but:
• Coleman sees value in narrowly written laws that prohibit, for example, segregating students by race or explicit racial shaming—but finds the blending of bans on ideas (e.g., "America is systemically racist") with behavioral prohibitions dangerous and confusing.

Tension Between Laws “As Written” vs. “As Applied”

• Kmele: Laws are unavoidably ambiguous and invite overreach, regardless of intent. Laws written to prohibit “making students feel ashamed” end up policed in ways that suppress honest teaching of American history (43:00).
  • Notable moment: Coleman admits later news about book removals in Tennessee shifted his stance after recording this episode; real-world implementation supported Kmele’s warning.

4. Schools, Parents, and Local Agency

Foster's Advocacy for Local Engagement

• Kmele strongly advocates for a bottom-up approach: parents confronting schools directly, curricular transparency, legal challenges when necessary, and restorative dialogue at the local level (52:30).
• Memorable quote:
  “There are no shortcuts. The person promising you to change the world by banning the bad thing is giving you a promise that they can’t actually fulfill.”
  —Kmele Foster (54:16)

The Role and Limits of Law

• Both hosts agree that “plan B” style policy measures (e.g., narrowly drawn statutes), while limited, could complement but not substitute the hard work of cultural change and school improvement (37:00).

Fear, "Cancellation," and Parental Agency

• Coleman and Kmele reflect on the deterrent effect of high-profile “cancellations” and why most parents, especially white parents, might fear raising complaints (57:37).
• Both argue for more stories about successful parent-school engagement to counteract exaggerated fears.

5. Gun Control, American Exceptionalism, and Policy Limitations

Kmele’s Gun Ownership and Philosophy

• Kmele is an open, unapologetic gun owner and Second Amendment supporter. He highlights both his appreciation for the personal security aspect and the American cultural context:
  “I’m a proud proponent of the Second Amendment. I do believe in the right to bear arms... I’m not the biggest gun nut in the world. I don’t have an AR15 yet, but I would buy one and I would defend the right...”
  —Kmele Foster (59:46)
• Coleman frames the issue: Given America’s unique proliferation of guns and established culture, “solutions” imported from Australia or Europe don’t map easily to the U.S. context (63:00).

Gun Violence, Mass Shootings, and Mental Health

• Kmele directs attention to the “neglected” issue of mental health and the enormous burden on families identifying and seeking help for at-risk members (66:21).
• He calls for more emphasis on resources and support networks, rather than focusing debates solely on bans or technical restrictions.

Against Top-Down Bans, For Ground-Up Solutions

• The common theme: Both in race/education and gun policy, Kmele consistently favors local, direct interaction, and skeptical engagement over state or national “blunt force” interventions (71:20).

6. Values, Civil Society, and Exhaustion with Culture War

• Kmele laments that “culture war” framing and top-down bans often eclipse local solution-building and the core shared desires of citizens for progress and safety (73:20).
• He concludes with an endorsement of individual agency, courage, and a call to reject tribalism and reactionary approaches.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Kmele Foster on Race and History:
  “Trying to create a circumstance where it becomes impossible to discuss these ideas at all, to ask questions about them and probe them, is something that is also antithetical to our values...” (21:05)

• Coleman Hughes on Legal Clarity:
  “There’s a difference between you can’t teach something that could lead a white kid to feel guilty… and saying you can’t teach that white children should feel guilty. The difference between those seemed cleaner to me…” (44:45)

• Kmele Foster on Real Change:
  “If these values matter to you, if they really matter to you, then you have an obligation… to stand up for them and confidently proclaim them and defend them.” (58:06)

• Coleman Hughes on Fear and Cancellation:
  “The point… is so you see [cancellation] every time and fear that we’re going to catch you, because it’s actually a substitute for widespread enforcement.” (57:52)

• Kmele Foster on the Underestimated Work:
  “My alternative is the hard, difficult work of getting your hands dirty and being thoroughly engaged…” (54:16)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|-----------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:17 | Coleman recounts his first exposure to Kmele Foster | | 14:49 | Kmele explains his core concern about race essentialism | | 18:00 | Critique of anti-CRT laws as “blunt instruments” | | 26:35 | Coleman’s nuanced analysis of the heterogeneity of CRT laws | | 37:12 | On local versus top-down reforms, and school choice priorities | | 43:00 | On law interpretation vs. intent, and chilling effects | | 52:30 | Kmele’s advocacy for parent-school engagement and local action | | 57:37 | Discussion on cancellation, fear, and the myth of “enforcement” | | 59:45 | Pivot to gun control and personal ownership | | 66:21 | The overlooked importance of mental health in violence debates | | 71:20 | Kmele’s philosophical summation: localism over centralization | | 73:42 | Conclusion: optimism for moving beyond culture war |

Overall Tone and Takeaways

The episode is unflinchingly honest, often skeptical, but always rooted in a desire for thoughtful discovery rather than debate for its own sake. Both Coleman and Kmele value rigor, humility, and local, ground-level action over sweeping "solutions." Kmele, especially, champions the rejection of tribalism, race essentialism, and reactionary policy in favor of engagement, courage, and time-consuming but meaningful local reforms. Both hosts end on a note of exhausted optimism, yearning for civil discourse and genuine progress.