Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Conversations with Coleman
Episode: He Wanted to Teach Western Civilization. So He Quit Harvard.
Host: Coleman Hughes (A)
Guest: James Hankins (B), intellectual historian, Renaissance scholar, former Harvard professor
Date: March 9, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Coleman Hughes speaks with James Hankins about his decision to leave Harvard after two decades to teach the Western tradition elsewhere. The conversation dives deep into the value and controversy surrounding the Western canon, the origins and evolution of modern liberal values, the historical interplay between religion and secularism, the spread of world religions, and how civilizations educate their citizens. Throughout, Hankins emphasizes the importance of teaching Western civilization, not out of triumphalism, but as a means to foster civility, historical understanding, and a shared sense of identity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Value of the Western Canon in Education

• Background: Both Coleman and Hankins share personal stories about studying and teaching classical music and the humanities, leading into a discussion of the Western canon's place in modern academia.
• The Columbia Core Curriculum:
  • Coleman lauds the Contemporary Civilizations (CC) course at Columbia, noting its focus on the Western canon despite ongoing critiques of it as being too focused on "dead white men." [03:56]
  • The curriculum has shifted modestly to include more diverse voices, but the core remains Western.
• Hankins' View:
  • Defends the emphasis on Western texts for their intellectual rigor and formative potential.
  • Addresses persistent arguments for diversifying the curriculum and the limitations imposed by the historical record ("you have to study what there is").
  • Notable: "I think we read great books because they're written by people who challenge us to higher intellectual standards... I simply don't believe that we can always have a curriculum that looks like America." [06:08]

2. Why Hankins Left Harvard

• Viral Article: Hankins explains the surprise at the viral response to his Compact Magazine essay, originally intended to argue for the continued study of Western Civ, not simply to publicize his Harvard exit.
• Main Reason: The declining teaching of Western civilization in American academia, which Hankins believes undermines societal civility and shared understanding.
• Historical Context: Western civ courses were ubiquitous until about 40 years ago, then dismissed as "Cold War subjects" or vehicles of militarism—a narrative Hankins disputes.
• Main Argument: "If you don't teach civilization, people become uncivilized... people learn about what civilized conduct is by learning the stories of their own civilization and good and the bad stories." [09:00]

3. Civilization as Treasure and Teacher

• Two Models:
  • Treasure House: The Western tradition as a collection of invaluable works—literature, philosophy, law, and art.
  • Formative Process: Studying these works instills values like persuasive speech, reason, and tolerance.
• Key Point: The Western focus on language, reason, and rhetorical skill as the backbone of free societies.
• Quote: "The alternative to persuading someone is to force them. And this is something the Greeks discovered very early on... they invented the art of rhetoric." [18:20]
• On Free Speech: Those educated in Western history understand the evolution and fragility of freedoms like free speech and rule of law better, appreciating their hard-won nature. [21:40]

4. Are the Western Tradition & Humanities Under Threat?

• Coleman’s Challenge: Is classical Western culture truly endangered, or does popular culture (e.g., film scores) reflect its persistent influence? [26:11]
• Hankins’ Response:
  • Acknowledges "threat narratives" are perennial in the humanities.
  • Sees a bigger threat in loss of qualified teachers and the influence of video games (e.g., Civilization) with oversimplified, progressive models of history.
  • Warns against both right-wing alarmism and uncritical modernization narratives. [27:59]

5. Judeo-Christianity, Enlightenment, and Secular Liberalism

• Two Models Presented by Coleman:
  • Outgrowth Model: Modern liberalism is a natural evolution from Judeo-Christian roots.
  • Backlash Model: Modern secular values arose as a rejection of oppressive religious systems.
• Hankins’ Double Answer: Both are true.
  • Roots of separation of church and state predate the Enlightenment and are unique to Western development.
  • The rejection of church authority (e.g., Protestant Reformation) catalyzed modern pluralism and liberalism.
  • Many modern ideals (equality, individual rights) have Judeo-Christian roots, even when repurposed or secularized.
  • Quote: "You cannot simply... create a new society built on ideals of the future that we make for ourselves. That's simply impossible." [43:40]
• Notable Insight: Many American and European institutions and values (e.g., legal equality) derive from radical Christian doctrines as much as from secular philosophy. [40:00–44:00]

6. Religion, Morality, and History

• Monotheism and Morality:
  • Addressing the claim that monotheistic religions invented morality, Hankins dismisses it: "I don't think it's true at all... civilization, if you're talking about a standard, a permanent standard of morality, you don't really need a God for that." [47:30]
  • Points to Chinese and Greco-Roman sources of moral order independent of monotheism.
• Spread of Christianity:
  • Combination of historical accidents (e.g., Roman destruction of Jerusalem) and the faith's social virtues (e.g., charitable acts during plagues) fueled its spread.
  • Quote: "The great Christian burst into Christian churches, became highly populous in the late third century because... the Christians offered help." [53:00]
• Spread of Islam:
  • Initially spread through military conquest, then gradually through social mechanisms and eventually missionary work, especially post-15th century. [62:26]

7. Civilizational Pluralism and Modern Nation-States

• Should China Teach the Western Canon?
  • Hankins advocates teaching China’s own traditions, emphasizing the richness of Confucian and imperial Chinese governance.
  • Skeptical of the idea of "global civilization," which he sees as lacking historical depth.
  • Quote: "Globalism has brands. It doesn't have traditions, serious traditions." [69:29]
• Harmony, Not Hegemony: Advocates civilizational cooperation to prevent destructive nationalism and the risk of conflict between the U.S. and China. [70:00]

8. Inclusivity in Western Civ Courses

• Will Non-Whites Feel Excluded?
  • It's not inevitable; much depends on how the subject is taught.
  • Western civilization in America includes significant Hispanic/Latino elements and has always been influenced by external sources.
  • Emphasizes US traditions of inclusivity, contrasted with the ethnic barriers to becoming "Chinese."
  • The goal isn’t to indoctrinate but to help new citizens understand the country’s values and institutions.
  • Quote: "People who come to this country should understand the country... and not maybe wait a generation or two before deciding to tear the whole thing down." [77:30]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Value of Teaching Western Civilization:
  • "If you don't teach civilization, people become uncivilized." — James Hankins [09:00]
• On Reason and Persuasion:
  • "The Greeks did not have a monarch, so they made reason their monarch." — (paraphrasing Sir Geoffrey Lloyd), James Hankins [19:45]
• On the Origins of Equality:
  • "Many people think that equality is a creation of Marxism or possibly a Rousseau. But... equality is deeply rooted in the Jewish tradition." — James Hankins [41:54]
• On Religion and Morality:
  • "Civilization, if you're talking about a standard, a permanent standard of morality, you don't really need a God for that." — James Hankins [47:45]
• On the Spread of Christianity:
  • “What really people observed at the time, in the 4th century, when Christianity makes its great advance, is it appeared to be making people better… Christianity offers conversion and the grace to start again, which philosophy doesn't." — James Hankins [58:56]
• On Inclusion in the Western Tradition:
  • "The US says anybody can be an American. And this is the great difference between China and America. Not everyone can be Chinese." — James Hankins [75:54]
• On Civilizations vs. Globalism:
  • "Globalism has brands. It doesn't have... serious traditions." — James Hankins [69:29]
• On Indoctrination vs. Education:
  • "I'm not saying that we should indoctrinate people into a Western view of things. I'm saying people who come to this country should understand the country and should want to participate in the country." — James Hankins [77:30]

Important Segment Timestamps

• [03:56] – Discussion of the Columbia core curriculum and curriculum controversies
• [06:08] – Hankins’ rationale for defending the Western canon and his Harvard departure
• [16:36] – Civilization as a treasure house vs. civilizing process
• [18:20] – The importance of persuasive speech and shared language
• [21:40] – Stories, history, and the formation of civic virtue
• [26:11] – Are Western traditions in real decline?
• [27:59] – The role of video games and pop culture in shaping historical memory
• [35:21] – Judeo-Christian roots of secular modernity: outgrowth vs. backlash
• [47:30] – Did monotheism invent morality?
• [51:06] – Why did Christianity spread so rapidly in antiquity?
• [62:26] – Was Islam spread by the sword or conversion?
• [68:51] – Should China teach its own tradition or a global civilization?
• [72:35] – Is Western Civ inevitably exclusive to non-white Americans?
• [75:54] – The contrast between American and Chinese models of inclusion

Overall Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is scholarly, reflective, and open-minded, with Hankins bringing a historian's nuance to all questions, and Hughes pushing for clarity and evidence. The tone is never combative; instead, it is curious and at times nostalgic, especially regarding the fate of the humanities in modern education. Both agree on the importance of learning history—warts and all—to build a better, more civil society.

Recommended For:
Anyone interested in education, history, political philosophy, or debates about identity and inclusion. Hankins offers a perspective that is both deeply grounded in scholarship and willing to challenge prevailing academic currents—making this a rich resource for “real-talk” about Western tradition and its place in the modern world.