Podcast Summary: Conversations With Coleman

Episode Title: Hormones, Ideology, and the Cost of Dissent with Carole Hooven
Date: November 3, 2025
Host: Coleman Hughes
Guest: Dr. Carole Hooven (Evolutionary Biologist, Author of "T: The Story of Testosterone, the Hormone that Dominates and Divides Us")

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Coleman Hughes and Carole Hooven, exploring the intersection of evolutionary biology, sex differences, the role of hormones—especially testosterone—in shaping human behavior, and the societal costs of dissenting from prevailing ideological narratives, specifically around sex and gender. Dr. Hooven recounts her professional journey, the controversy that led to her departure from Harvard, and dives deep into her scientific work on sex differences and hormone effects on human psychology and society.

Carole Hooven’s Background and Academic Journey

Carole’s Early Life and Motivation

• Hooven describes a rebellious adolescence, finishing at the bottom of her class and experimenting with drugs and alcohol.
• Key turning point: Exposure to Richard Dawkins’ The Selfish Gene and Richard Wrangham’s Demonic Males, sparking a passion for evolutionary biology. (05:22)
• Hooven's travels and social experiences—ranging from living on a kibbutz to working in DC and Africa—shaped her curiosity about human behavior across cultures.

Research Experience

• Field research in Uganda studying chimpanzee behavior; observed significant sex differences, especially male aggression linked to reproductive success and territoriality. (07:10)
• Pursued PhD at Harvard focusing on sex differences in spatial ability and links to testosterone, particularly the role of testosterone in cognitive and behavioral differentiation. (11:54)

“It was the Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins ...such a profound change in the way I viewed my existence.” – Carole Hooven (04:20)

The Harvard Controversy and Cost of Dissent

Publishing and Rising Tension

• Hooven wrote "T: The Story of Testosterone," which received positive reviews and numerous teaching awards.
• Trouble began after a Fox & Friends appearance in which Hooven defended the scientific utility of terms “male” and “female.”

Departmental Backlash

• DEI committee leader publicly condemned her remarks as "dangerous and harmful," igniting viral outrage on social media. (17:30)
• Professional isolation: Colleagues stopped speaking to her, teaching assistants and students withdrew support, and she faced unfounded accusations of causing abuse and threats.

“My reputation on campus took a big, big hit, and the environment in the department changed very quickly.” – Carole Hooven (20:12)

Institutional Response

• No senior faculty or administrators publicly supported Hooven; instead, she received blame and indirect apologies.
• Ultimately negotiated her retirement, citing a hostile departmental environment.

Science of Sex Differences and Role of Hormones

Setting the Stage: On Average vs. Absolute Differences

Coleman points out the public misinterpretation of average sex differences as categorical absolutes.

“The moment you make any other claim about differences between men and women... suddenly people lose the ability to see the distinction between an average difference and a categorical difference.” – Coleman Hughes (27:14)

Binary Sex vs. Spectrum Traits

• Hooven asserts the biological binary nature of sex—based on gamete production—while noting that associated traits (hormones, genitalia, behavior, etc.) exist along spectrums. (29:11)
• Critiques the conflation of sex (binary) and sex-associated traits (spectral), referencing academic works (e.g., Augustin Fuentes’ "Sex is a Spectrum") that misrepresent this distinction.

Quote:

“Sex itself is binary and sex-associated traits are on a spectrum and differ on average.” – Carole Hooven (35:02)

The Role of Testosterone

• Developmental Effects:

  • Fetal and early postnatal testosterone shapes brain and behavioral masculinization, most notably increasing rough-and-tumble play among males across species.
  • In humans, the difference in childhood behavior isn’t due to circulating testosterone at that age, but early developmental exposure. (44:00)

• Behavioral Evidence:

  • Cross-cultural universality of male-typical behavior (aggression, competitiveness, rough play) is cited as evidence against cultural-only explanations for sex differences.
  • Studies of girls with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH)—exposed to higher prenatal testosterone—exhibit increased rough-and-tumble play, supporting the hormonal causation hypothesis. (52:00)

Quote:

“We have a theory that makes a whole lot of sense and clearly explains what we’re seeing in non-human animals. And we see the same thing in humans.” – Carole Hooven (51:34)

Practical Implications: Where Sex Differences Matter Most (and Least)

• Hooven argues that sex differences are particularly salient in sexuality, aggression, and domains requiring physical strength or competition (e.g., sports).

• Testosterone leads to increased sex drive and preference for sexual variety—reflected in both research and anecdotal reports from those transitioning from female to male, or from steroid users. (62:20)

• Discussion of sports:

  • Hormone levels alone don’t eliminate the structural and developmental advantages conferred by male puberty.
  • Proposals to segregate sports by hormone levels (e.g., from Neil DeGrasse Tyson) are deemed both unworkable and unfair to female athletes. (86:40)

Quote:

“There’s no bigger single predictor of success than sex... There are thousands of high school boys who could beat the female Olympic champion in, like, most track and field sports.” – Carole Hooven (89:10)

Gender Transition, Hormones, and Unanswered Questions

• Puberty Blockers & Cross-Sex Hormones:

  • Blocking puberty and transitioning adolescents lack the evidence base to justify positive outcomes on gender dysphoria, with permanent sterility and loss of sexual function as major risks.
  • The neuroendocrine feedback loops that dynamically modulate testosterone in response to social cues are lost in those taking exogenous hormones, impacting adaptation and well-being. (72:46, 76:53)

• Complexity of Hormonal Action:

  • Calls for more research on the interactions between testosterone, estrogen, and the nervous system, especially regarding how hormones organize and activate sex-differentiated neural circuits throughout life. (93:27)

“We really don’t have enough research on the role of estrogen in male and female behavior... there’s also some interesting research going on about the relationship between testosterone and obesity, diabetes, and its potential for treatment in metabolic disorders.” – Carole Hooven (95:25)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On leaving Harvard:

  “I was isolated. I felt very isolated in my department. I didn’t have my own lab. People stopped speaking to me... My chair... intended to apologize... which essentially only blamed me for what had happened and not taking enough care in the impact of my words.” (21:14)

• On cultural universality of sex-differentiated play and behavior:

  “Why do we have no cultures where girls are doing this behavior and boys are playing house?” (50:27)

• On the futility and unfairness of hormone-level sports segregation:

  “It's a terrible, terrible, terrible idea... It only hurts women.” (86:37, 90:14)

• On science vs. ideology:

  “We have to acknowledge the facts and be able to talk about them.” (16:30)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:48] – Carole’s early life, academic journey, and intellectual influences.
• [07:10] – Observations of sex differences in chimpanzees and their relevance to humans.
• [12:45] – Hooven’s career at Harvard and teaching experiences.
• [16:30] – Catalyst for controversy: media appearance and department backlash.
• [29:11] – Clarifying the distinction between sex as binary and traits as spectrums.
• [44:15] – How play, aggression, and rough-and-tumble behavior are hormonally mediated.
• [52:00] – Evidence from girls with CAH and why cross-cultural patterns refute pure socialization explanations.
• [62:20] – Effects of exogenous testosterone: firsthand accounts and scientific limitations.
• [72:46] – The dynamic nature of hormones and puberty blockers’ risks.
• [86:37] – Critique of hormone-based segregation in sports.
• [93:27] – Most interesting unanswered scientific questions about hormones.

Conclusion & Further Resources

• Carole’s book: "The Story of Testosterone: The Hormone That Dominates and Divides Us"
• Twitter/X: @Hoovelet
• Instagram: @carolehooven

This episode offers a nuanced, scientifically grounded, and deeply personal perspective on the intersection of biology, ideology, and academic culture war. For listeners interested in evolutionary biology, gender debates, and the sociopolitical costs of academic candor, it is essential listening.