Podcast Summary: "Living In Paradox With Chloe Valdary"

Conversations with Coleman – Episode 8 (May 14, 2020)

Overview

In this candid and wide-ranging conversation, host Coleman Hughes speaks with Chloé Valdary, writer, entrepreneur, and founder of Theory of Enchantment. The two dive deep into topics such as art, race, spiritual fulfillment, black history, the Great Awokening, Black Lives Matter, the role of branding, hip hop versus Western canon, paradox in life and creativity, and the power of collective experience. Throughout, Valdary's passion for art as a guiding principle in her worldview shines, and the dynamic between her and Coleman offers nuanced reflections on culture, politics, and identity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Chloé Valdary’s Podcasting & 'Weed and Wisdom' [02:39–04:26]

• Chloé’s new podcast, "Weed and Wisdom"
  • Originated from her experiences with the intellectual expansiveness of edibles compared to smoking weed.
  • “When I have an edible, it’s like that much more incredible.” (Chloé, 04:21)

2. Upbringing in New Orleans & Education in Black History [05:17–08:14]

• Growing up in both predominantly black and mixed schools, Valdary’s worldview was shaped by an education rooted in empowerment and black excellence (Langston Hughes, Maya Angelou featured early).
• Emphasizes the richness of a racially and culturally diverse upbringing:
  • "I grew up around people of all different backgrounds..." (Chloé, 07:27)

3. Human Oneness vs. Modern Racial Rhetoric [08:14–11:16]

• Both speakers share a commitment to the "oneness of the human family," finding current popular rhetoric about white people (“white male as slur”) mystifying and alienating.

4. Learning Black History—Focus on Achievement or Oppression? [14:01–19:44]

• Discussion of a NYT Op-Ed advocating for Black History Month’s focus to shift from achievement to oppression.
• Chloé: "I don’t see how spiritual culmination comes to fruition through that process. By definition, that’s not how spiritual work works.” (16:55)
• Coleman asserted that repeated political reparations (from museums to apologies) haven't filled a "spiritual hole" in America.

5. The "Great Awokening", Spiritual Fulfillment, & Social Media [20:57–25:11]

• The duo reflects on the change in racial discourse post-Obama, theorizing:
  • Social media’s role in accelerating outrage.
  • Growing material comfort can highlight a lack of spiritual purpose.
  • “There’s a total difference between the caliber of folks like Maya Angelou and Langston Hughes... they were... spiritually more advanced than the current generation of writers.” (Chloé, 24:06)

6. Material Inequality vs. Well-Being [27:33–33:12]

• They question the assumption that wealth is directly tied to happiness or spiritual fulfillment.
• Chloé recaps Jonathan Haidt: "Past a certain median income, there's no correlation between money and happiness." (30:59)
• Discussion about polling black vs. white Americans on happiness/family time challenging economic determinism.

7. Chloé’s Connection to Israel & the Politics of Solidarity [33:20–39:01]

• Her affinity for Jewish culture stems from a unique Christian upbringing.
• Explains why the National Black Lives Matter movement adopts an explicit anti-Israel stance—rooted in a tradition framing the West as an oppressive force.
  • "They take their understanding of American history ... and project it onto other countries’ histories..." (Chloé, 36:07)
• Reflects on earlier black leaders who supported Israel, connecting it more to black resilience.

8. Twitter, Art, and Productive Disagreement [41:41–44:21]

• Chloé credits her Twitter success to seeing art as her core political orientation, not seeking to win arguments but emphasizing the "eternal worthiness" of others:
  • “I still believe fundamentally in your eternal worthiness, which is a spiritual claim.” (Chloé, 44:10)

9. Hip Hop and the Western Canon [44:52–49:03]

• Chloé views hip hop as a direct continuation of the literary tradition (like Homer’s bards).
  • "Hip hop is... the greatest thing since the ancient bards." (Chloé, 44:55)
• Hip hop’s complexity and introspection are often missed by surface-level critics.

10. Paradox, Art, and Cancel Culture [50:32–54:39]

• On her music (Paradox): Valdary is "obsessed with paradox"—blending contrasting identities and experiences (e.g., divine and romantic love in Prince or David’s biblical story).
• Argues cancel culture is incompatible with great art as both “live in the space of paradox.”

11. Underrated Artists and Inspirations [55:11–58:09]

• Chloé recommends the Puerto Rican band IFA and British artist Ben Howard as profound, under-the-radar musicians.
• She samples Edgar Allan Poe and Nina Simone in her music, to blend seemingly disparate icons (57:12).

12. James Baldwin & Pliability of Great Minds [58:09–61:03]

• Baldwin’s "spiritual insight" discussed; compared to a great rapper in his complexity and ability to change his mind publicly.

13. Charter Schools, Education Reform, and Theory of Enchantment [61:03–67:01]

• Charter schools’ effectiveness depends on context; no universal verdict.
• Chloé’s Theory of Enchantment curriculum teaches social-emotional learning through pop culture as a bridge to deeper Western ideas.
  • “Mining that data to distill lessons about the human condition...” (Chloé, 66:00)

14. Branding, Identity, and Emotional Connection [71:09–77:45]

• Branding is about what objects "represent"—Nike sells the idea “that you can do anything.”
• “They’re not buying the clothing, they’re buying what the clothing represents. ... You're buying the medicine." (Chloé, 73:30)
• Debate about the personal vs. collective experience of fandom (merch, concerts).

15. Individual vs. Collective Spiritual Experience [78:43–83:15]

• The conversation considers whether spiritual experiences are diminished or enhanced in groups.
  • Chloé shares the evolutionary origin of “Olé!” as a collective religious chant and compares concert experiences to civil rights freedom songs.

16. Dance, Meditation, and Individual Practice [83:49–84:20]

• Chloé prefers dance (especially to Afrobeats) over seated meditation as her spiritual or meditative practice.

17. The Decline of Chance the Rapper [84:23–86:29]

• Both agree Chance's music has lost its spark.
  • Possible causes: "hit chasing," artistic overproduction, or loss of uniqueness.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the limits of material reparations:
  “If it’s a spiritual thing, you can’t fill it by political means.” (Coleman, 20:18)

• On black history education:
  “I received a very foundational introduction and in-depth exploration of black history... It’s not that the content isn’t there. It’s that the lens through which I understand the content is totally different.” (Chloé, 13:42)

• On why collective ‘reckoning’ with the past can miss the point:
  “That’s not how spiritual work works. By constantly trying to seek a sort of, like, cosmic justice in which everyone’s forced to... perpetually reckon with the distant past…” (Chloé, 16:55)

• On Twitter and disagreement:
  “It’s not just that I’m willing to have conversations... I still believe fundamentally in your eternal worthiness, which is a spiritual claim.” (Chloé, 44:09)

• On hip hop’s literary legacy:
  “I think hip hop is... the greatest thing since the ancient bards. What it does with language is equivalent to what Homer did with things like the Odyssey.” (Chloé, 44:55)

• On paradox in life and art:
  “Spirituality, I think, plays in the space of paradox. ... If we as a society... internalize the ability to hold space for two seemingly disparate ideas... we’d be a much healthier society.” (Chloé, 52:14)

• On branding and buying meaning:
  “Nike is not selling you a shoe. Nike is selling you the idea that you can do anything, and that’s why you buy the shoe...” (Chloé, 73:30)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:39] — Chloé’s podcasting & the role of edibles
• [05:17] — Upbringing in New Orleans & education
• [08:14] — Human family & race discourse
• [14:01] — NYT Op-Ed on Black History Month: focus shift
• [20:57] — Post-Obama: why the shift in racial conversation?
• [27:33] — Material wellbeing vs. spiritual fulfillment
• [33:20] — Chloé’s affinity for Israel & BLM’s position
• [41:41] — Twitter, art, and disagreement
• [44:52] — Hip hop, Western canon, and complexity
• [50:32] — Art, paradox, and cancel culture
• [55:11] — Underrated artists & creative inspirations
• [58:09] — James Baldwin, pliability, and complexity
• [61:03] — Charter school debate & Theory of Enchantment
• [71:09] — Branding, identity, and consumer behavior
• [78:43] — Personal vs. collective spiritual experience
• [84:23] — Decline of Chance the Rapper’s music

Tone & Closing Theme

The tone is intellectually curious, relaxed, warm, and reflective. Chloé frequently connects her thoughts back to the importance of art, paradox, and spiritual rather than merely material or political modes of healing and understanding. The conversation closes with playful discussion about music, dance, and fandom, emphasizing the nonlinear, creative energy that defines both Chloé Valdary’s worldview and her approach to life and art.

"Mining that data to distill lessons about the human condition in order to teach people how to be in better relationship with themselves and with their community around them."
—Chloé Valdary, on Theory of Enchantment [66:00]

"If we are a society that believes in art, I don't think cancel culture can last, because art has to play in the space of paradox."
—Chloé Valdary [53:56]