Podcast Summary: "The Forgotten History of Slavery in the Islamic World"

Podcast: Conversations with Coleman
Host: Coleman Hughes, The Free Press
Guest: Justin Marozzi, historian and author of Captives and Companions
Date: March 16, 2026

Overview

This episode of Conversations with Coleman explores the largely under-examined history of slavery in the Islamic world. Coleman Hughes interviews historian and author Justin Marozzi, whose book Captives and Companions is described as the most comprehensive account on this subject. The conversation delves into the scale, nature, and legacy of slavery within Islamic societies, analyzing religious, cultural, and historical perspectives. The discussion spans from the origins of slavery in the early Islamic era to its contemporary vestiges in parts of Africa.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why This History Remains Under-Examined

• Relative Neglect in Academia: Marozzi observes that while Atlantic slavery has been exhaustively documented, slavery in the Islamic world is far less studied. He attributes this to past professional risks for scholars, cultural sensitivities, and lack of funding.

  "I think, as Bernard Lewis said, it was professionally hazardous for a young scholar to enter into this field...controversial. You're not going to win much friends, possibly not get funding." – Marozzi [04:10]

• Change Over Time: Both agree discourse has become more open, and new generations of non-Western scholars are making meaningful strides, though the subject remains touchy especially in parts of the Muslim world [06:52].

2. The Scale and Uniqueness of Slavery in Islam

• Comparative Numbers: Marozzi offers rough figures: Atlantic slave trade enslaved 11–14 million; the Islamic world, possibly 12–17 million, but over a longer time (~14 centuries).

  "If anything, the numbers involved were greater but over a much longer period..." – Marozzi [04:10]

• Geographical Reach: Slavery extended from Africa through the Middle East and as far as India, Indonesia, and Malaysia.

3. Slavery in the Quran and Islamic Jurisprudence

• Textual Foundations: The Quran authorizes and regulates slavery, referring to slaves as “those whom your right hands possess.” It recognizes manumission as a virtue and bans enslavement of fellow Muslims, but abolition is never considered.

  "The Quran justifies, authorizes slavery...this is almost like a natural state of affairs." – Marozzi [10:30]

• Practice vs. Theory: While Islamic law forbade enslaving Muslims and recommended good treatment, reality often diverged, especially under political or economic pressures.

4. Conquest and Conversion

• Spread of Islam—By Sword or Mission?: The hosts agree the historical reality is nuanced. Conquest and voluntary conversion were intertwined; it's simplistic to attribute Islam's spread solely to force or peaceful proselytism [20:03].

5. The Role and Reality of Eunuchs and Concubines

• Prevalence of Castration: The practice was rare due to high mortality rates. Eunuchs, often castrated outside the Islamic world and imported, became elite servants and guards, especially in royal courts.

  “It was almost like a pragmatic bit of hypocrisy… Muslims haven't performed this illegal act, so they're absolved.” – Marozzi [25:28]

• Long Legacy: The use of eunuchs persisted into the 20th century, illustrating the enduring structures of this form of slavery [26:03].

6. Saharan Slave Routes: The Hidden Middle Passage

• Conditions and Survival Rates: The podcast draws grim parallels to the Atlantic Middle Passage. Survivors' rates were low, conditions brutal.

  “Mortality rates were high. If you didn't keep up with the caravan...you were simply left to die on the side of the trail across the desert, unburied.” – Marozzi [29:05]

• Western Reactions vs. Regional Attitudes: Marozzi notes absence of shame among many contemporary interlocutors in Africa and the Gulf. In contrast, Western societies exhibit deep historical guilt and public apology.

7. Modern Guilt vs. Global Norms

• Lack of Remorse Outside the West: Hughes notes the West is the global exception for expressing collective guilt about historical slavery.

  “Really it's actually the exception in the world is Western Europe and offshoot societies... where that sort of historical guilt seems to be a powerful force.” – Hughes [32:58]

• Suppression and Denial: In places like Saudi Arabia, Mauritania, and Mali, the history of slavery is ignored, downplayed, or denied, partly due to lack of free inquiry [35:18].

8. Racialization of Slavery

• Not Uniquely Western: Marozzi dispels myths that racialized slavery was unique to the West, highlighting how in much of the Islamic world, Arabs enslaved Africans, and lingering prejudice remains today.

  “Certain ethnicities that are typically enslaved and are the victims of enslavement...” – Marozzi [39:14]

• Casual Modern Racism: Hughes and Marozzi recount the pejorative use of “abed” (slave) for black people in countries like Iraq and Libya, underscoring how language reflects enduring social hierarchies [41:57].

9. The Barbary Slave Trade: A Two-Way Street

• Breaking Myths: The Barbary slave trade—North African corsairs capturing Europeans—is usually framed as Muslim-on-Christian exploitation, but historians now stress it was mutual piracy and enslavement across faiths.

  “The Mediterranean world of Barbary corsairing [was] almost as a free for all, almost faith blind, almost colorblind.” – Marozzi [45:16]

• Motivations: Marozzi emphasizes that these were profit-driven enterprises, not religiously fueled jihads, though religious justification was sometimes invoked [50:47].

10. Modern Slavery: The Last Outposts

• Persistence in Mali and Mauritania: Despite formal abolition, hereditary slavery exists in pockets of Mali and Mauritania, often protected by elite interests.

  “People from that elite political and economic class... tend to be the people who either justify... or who indeed keep slaves themselves.” – Marozzi [55:24]

• Estimates & Obstacles: Numbers are difficult to establish due to state secrecy and hostility to outside investigation. Public reporting and international pressure remain crucial, but there is no quick solution [59:04].

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “For every gallon of ink spilt on the Atlantic slave trade, the corresponding amount is a drop of ink for the slavery in the Islamic world...” – Marozzi [04:10]
• "It's shocking. It's fairly extraordinary that something that lasted so long, involves so many people, over such a wide geography, has not received more critical analysis." – Marozzi [01:56]
• “The Quran justifies, authorizes slavery... Emancipation is considered one of the greater goods... but this is not something that anyone is talking about, abolition.” – Marozzi [10:30]
• “It's a kind of wishful thinking because we would like it to be true that you couldn't justify these things by reference to the text. But unfortunately you can.” – Hughes [53:12]
• “I never really felt... that word [shame] at all within the Arab world... There was literally no sense of shame or that there was anything wrong.” – Marozzi [27:39]
• “We have these value judgments where we think we speak for the entire world... often we're probably the outliers rather than the norm.” – Marozzi [35:18]
• "If you're still actually calling an ethnic group that was historically enslaved 'slaves'... maybe some places in the world have too little wokeness." – Hughes [41:57]
• “The numbers are really difficult to know... estimates vary from, I think, a million is the high end... the real figure is simply unknown, and the government would prefer it to be kept that way.” – Marozzi [55:24]

Timestamps & Segment Highlights

• [01:56] – Justin Marozzi’s background and academic journey
• [04:10] – Comparing Atlantic and Islamic slave trades; Why it’s under-studied
• [10:30] – Slavery in the Quran and Islamic law
• [14:38] – Historical context: Slavery in pre-Islamic Arabia
• [17:06] – How religious ideas altered slave practices; Limits of “progressiveness”
• [21:47] – The reality and religious circumventions of eunuchs and castration
• [27:39] – Arab and African attitudes toward shame and historical memory
• [32:58] – Why Western societies are unique in expressing historical remorse
• [39:14] – Racialization in Islamic world slavery; modern linguistic echoes
• [45:16] – The Barbary slave trade: mutual piracy, cross-cultural complexity
• [53:12] – ISIS, jihad, and religious justifications for modern slavery
• [55:24] – Modern slavery in Mali and Mauritania; scale, silence, and what can be done

Conclusion

Marozzi’s research and Hughes’s probing questions provide a rare, nuanced chronicle of slavery in the Islamic world—its legal, religious, and cultural underpinnings; its brutality and endurance; and the profound differences in historical reckoning between the West and other societies. The episode challenges assumptions about the comparative histories of slavery, urges historical honesty, and highlights both the successes and failures of abolitionist movements worldwide.

Recommendation:
Coleman Hughes strongly recommends Marozzi’s book Captives and Companions as the definitive work on the topic: “It’s a great example of how to do history and weave individual anecdotes and stories into a wider historical analysis.” [60:27]