Conversations With Coleman: The Future of Woke with Eric Kaufmann Hosted by The Free Press Release Date: July 24, 2024

Introduction

In the July 24, 2024 episode of Conversations With Coleman, host Coleman Hughes engages in a thought-provoking dialogue with political scientist Eric Kaufmann. Kaufmann, renowned for his expertise in demographics, immigration, and national identity, delves deep into the intricate dynamics of wokeness, its structural underpinnings, and its future trajectory. This episode, titled "The Future of Woke with Eric Kaufmann," offers listeners a comprehensive exploration of cultural socialism, generational shifts, gender divides, and the impacts of birth rates and religiosity on societal values.

Peak Wokeness and Its Sustainability

The conversation begins with the contemplation of whether society has reached the zenith of wokeness. Coleman poses the question of whether the fervor surrounding wokeness, which intensified post-2020 following events like the death of George Floyd, has begun to wane, citing the observable pushback against Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives.

Eric Kaufmann responds by acknowledging that while the height of wokeness manifested strongly in 2020 and 2021—with numerous cancellations and widespread discussions on white privilege—the phenomenon is far from a fleeting fad. He posits that wokeness is rooted in deep structural causes, likening its suppression to merely trimming a bush that can quickly regrow. Kaufmann notes a resurgence of woke expressions in contexts like the Israel-Palestine conflict, emphasizing the persistent and resilient nature of these cultural dynamics ([04:36]).

Defining Wokeness and Cultural Socialism

Kaufmann offers a succinct definition of wokeness: "the making sacred of historically marginalized race, gender, and sexual identity groups." This sacralization leads to a hierarchical societal structure where any offense against these groups is heavily sanctioned, and inequalities are aggressively addressed through measures like affirmative action and quotas ([06:17]).

Expanding on this, Kaufmann introduces the concept of cultural socialism, drawing parallels to economic socialism. While economic socialism focuses on class-based redistribution, cultural socialism concentrates on redistribution based on race and gender. He illustrates this with literary references, such as Kurt Vonnegut's The Handicapper General and Lionel Shriver's Mania, to demonstrate how cultural socialism attempts to equalize various attributes, albeit in a more chaotic and less principled manner compared to its economic counterpart ([07:56]).

Generational Divide and Value Change

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the generational divide in attitudes toward wokeness. Kaufmann presents evidence that younger generations are inherently less tolerant than their predecessors, a trend reinforced by cohort dynamics. This suggests that as younger, less tolerant individuals ascend to positions of power, woke ideologies may become more entrenched ([06:06]).

Coleman Hughes further explores this by challenging the notion that individuals moderate their beliefs as they age. Using Kaufmann's analysis, it's highlighted that deeply held values—particularly those associated with wokeness—tend to persist throughout one's life. Kaufmann supports this by referencing longitudinal studies indicating that values instilled in youth can remain steadfast into adulthood, debunking the idea of a "silent majority" that quietly disagrees but lacks the fervor to oppose ([36:54]).

Gender Divide in Woke Ideology

The conversation also delves into the pronounced gender divide within woke ideology. Kaufmann observes that young women are significantly more aligned with woke principles compared to their male counterparts. This divergence has profound implications for future political landscapes, especially as these young women become median voters and influential figures.

Kaufmann challenges evolutionary psychology explanations, which suggest innate empathetic tendencies in women, by arguing that woke ideology selectively channels empathy towards certain groups deemed deserving. He points out the inconsistency in targeted empathy, such as empathy for trans women versus empathy for religious groups like Seventh Day Adventists, highlighting the ideological structuring of empathy ([56:19]).

Impact of Birth Rates and Religiosity

Eric Kaufmann revisits a topic he addressed over a decade ago: the long-term consequences of differing birth rates and levels of religiosity among various communities. He asserts that declining fertility rates in developed and many developing nations will lead to significant demographic shifts. Highly religious and high birth rate groups are poised to become more prominent, potentially reversing current cultural trends favoring wokeness.

Kaufmann emphasizes that these demographic changes are continuing as anticipated, with no substantial deviations observed in recent analyses. He connects this trend to the persistence of woke ideologies, suggesting that as populations with lower birth rates (and often more woke stances) decrease, more conservative and traditional values may resurface ([61:31]).

Reforming Institutions vs. Building New Ones

A critical debate addressed in the episode is whether to reform existing institutions to counteract woke ideologies or to establish new ones. Kaufmann advocates for a dual approach:

1. Reforming Legacy Institutions: Recognizing the immense cultural capital and influence of established entities like Harvard, Columbia, and major media outlets, Kaufmann argues that efforts should focus on injecting genuine liberalism into these institutions. He points out that legacy institutions hold significant sway due to their historical reputations, making them pivotal battlegrounds for cultural change.

2. Creating New Platforms: In sectors like media, where barriers to entry are lower, Kaufmann acknowledges the importance of building new institutions to promote alternative narratives. However, he notes the challenges in matching the influence of well-established institutions.

Kaufmann stresses the necessity of prioritizing cultural issues over economic or foreign policy matters to effectively mobilize conservative movements and reclaim institutional authority ([66:04]).

Path Forward: Strategies to Counteract Wokeness

In outlining a 12-step plan, Kaufmann emphasizes the importance of right-of-center parties taking the lead in cultural issues. Key strategies include:

• Elevating Cultural Priorities: Conservative parties should prioritize cultural debates above foreign policy and economic issues to resonate with a broader electorate.

• Mobilization and Organization: Learning from the well-organized pro-life movement, conservatives need to develop robust frameworks to support cultural initiatives.

• Educational Reform: Tackling indoctrination in schools by promoting accurate historical contexts and resisting identity-focused curricula is essential. Kaufmann highlights research showing the significant impact of curriculum content on student ideologies ([55:13]).

• Leveraging Institutional Trust: Utilizing the goodwill of legacy institutions to counteract woke narratives, while simultaneously building new platforms to disseminate alternative viewpoints.

Kaufmann concludes that a combination of institutional reform and strategic mobilization is crucial for reversing the ascendancy of woke ideologies and reestablishing liberal values that prioritize free speech and contextual understanding ([65:53], [66:04]).

Notable Quotes

• "We've trimmed the bush back, but it can flare out again at any time." — Eric Kaufmann ([04:36])

• "Wokeness is about some notion of power and privilege. It’s not just about the majority or minority numbers." — Eric Kaufmann ([18:49])

• "Once you sacralize these groups as the top of your moral order, there's no real way for the left to argue back." — Eric Kaufmann ([24:56])

• "Cultural socialism focuses on redistribution by race and gender, unlike economic socialism which is based on class." — Eric Kaufmann ([07:56])

• "The ideology tells you who to have empathy for, not just pure empathy as an emotion." — Eric Kaufmann ([56:40])

• "Reforming legacy institutions while building new platforms where possible is essential for reclaiming cultural authority." — Eric Kaufmann ([66:04])

Conclusion

The episode offers a multifaceted examination of wokeness, dissecting its definitions, societal impacts, and future implications. Eric Kaufmann presents a compelling argument that wokeness is deeply entrenched in structural and generational factors, making its decline unlikely without significant cultural and institutional interventions. The dialogue underscores the importance of proactive strategies in education, institutional reform, and political mobilization to navigate and potentially reverse the current trajectory of woke ideologies.

Listeners gain valuable insights into the complexities of modern cultural conflicts, the role of generational shifts in shaping societal values, and the critical need for strategic action to uphold liberal principles. The Future of Woke serves as an essential conversation for those seeking to understand and engage with the evolving landscape of political and cultural discourse.