Podcast Summary: Conversations With Coleman
Episode: The Limits of Identity with Ayishat Akanbi (Ep. 14)
Date: September 17, 2020
Host: Coleman Hughes
Guest: Ayishat Akanbi
Main Theme
This episode features a candid and nuanced discussion between Coleman Hughes and Ayishat Akanbi—a Nigerian-British fashion stylist, writer, and cultural commentator—on the psychology and cultural dynamics of identity, race, social activism, and the limits of identity politics. Their conversation explores the pitfalls of over-identifying with group identity, the challenges and contradictions within activist and artistic circles, and the societal consequences of contemporary demands for public solidarity and apologies.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Ayishat’s Background & Entry into Fashion and Commentary
- Ayishat’s Narrative: Born in London, raised in Southampton, entered fashion not for aesthetics but for the psychology behind clothing choices and group perceptions.
- “I was interested in why people wear the things that they wear...to what extent does that open and close doors?” (03:28)
- Personal tragedy (her brother’s murder) prompted deeper questioning of identity, society, and meaning.
2. Conformity & Politics in Artistic Spaces
- Art World Paradox: Both observe that the art and fashion worlds claim to be subversive, but are in fact highly conformist in their left-leaning politics and identity narratives.
- Hughes: “I’ve always been interested in how artistic spaces seem to be very uniform in their politics, uniformly left-wing and sympathetic to identity politics...” (06:17)
- Akanbi: “We have a really conformist understanding of what it means to be radical...being nuanced just isn’t allowed.” (07:35)
- Many inside these industries privately disagree but fear speaking out.
3. Free Speech vs. Safety
- On Open Discourse: Both champion free speech as essential for curiosity and discovery.
- Akanbi: “To be anti free speech is to be anti curious...we need to be able to think about these things from a range of perspectives.” (16:11)
- Pushback on ‘Safety’: Overbroad ideas of ‘unsafety’ stifle honest dialogue.
- Akanbi: “Our notion of unsafe is very generous at the moment...maybe it’s uncomfortable or undesirable, but unsafe, I’m not so sure about.” (18:45)
- Hughes: “It’s curious to me that people only pick and choose when they use the safety argument so as to bolster left wing biases as opposed to right wing ones.” (21:07)
4. The Limits of Identity
- Identity as Limitation: Hyper-fixation on one’s group identity can restrict personal growth, connection, and experience.
- Akanbi: “The fixation with your identity limits your identity...it will stop you from exploring so many other things.” (23:57)
- Distinction between identifying with a group and obsessively confining oneself to it.
5. Curiosity, Open-Mindedness, and Community
- Both have noticed a decline in true open-mindedness, especially in left-leaning spaces where dissent is frequently moralized and policed.
- Akanbi: “I don’t find [open-mindedness] very much on the left very easily...but I do find that, at least, the conservative people I’m getting to know...they don’t take disagreement as a stain on your morality.” (29:26)
6. In-group Critique and Maturity
- Handling Criticism: Growth demands being able to process criticism of one's own group objectively, not defensively.
- Akanbi: “We cannot hear anything undesirable about a group we belong to...We just want to outsource blame constantly.” (32:09)
- Hughes: “Maturity in the individual is the ability to see your own flaws and always be curious about them.” (34:37)
- Discuss black academic achievement, peer pressure (the “acting white” stigma), and why honest internal critique is crucial.
7. The Politics of Apologies and Historical Wrongs
- Public Apologies: Forced or demanded apologies (either interpersonal or for historical injustices) tend to feel hollow and offer little closure.
- Akanbi: “If you’ve asked for [an apology], is it really an apology?...an apology, or at least when it’s worthwhile, is when you don’t have to ask.” (42:33)
- Hughes relates this to debates on reparations and official statements: “You think you can get off with a bullshit half-ass apology like that?...They’re going to get more angry probably.” (49:08)
- Akanbi: “[The apology] is going to feel very underwhelming. I don’t think it’s going to give closure.” (48:21)
8. Social Pressure, Victimhood, and White Guilt
- Activism After George Floyd: Both critique the compulsive social media activism that erupted post-George Floyd, particularly the pressure on white people to “perform” the correct social signals, regardless of sincerity.
- Akanbi: “I often think that many people…are more committed to the project of making white people feel guilty than any kind of liberation of black people...It’s a full time job holding them to account.” (55:57)
- Hughes: “Anything you do is going to be wrong, right?” (55:45)
- Hughes and Akanbi note that the peer pressure, moral confusion, and performative solidarity were emotionally taxing and often patronizing.
9. Suffering as a Moral Exemption
- Victimhood Culture: There’s an emerging sense that experiencing oppression absolves individuals from the moral standards expected of others.
- Akanbi: “Suffering…can often make people feel exempt from holding themselves to the moral standards they expect of everyone else. … victimhood is synonymous with virtue or innocence. And it’s a get out of jail free card.” (66:20)
- Warns that this breeds resentment and damages collective self-esteem.
10. Universal Capacity for Prejudice and Moral Complexity
- Everyone’s Capable: Rebukes the notion that only certain groups are capable of racism or historical wrongs, emphasizing universality of human flaws.
- Akanbi: “I can’t see much more power than that—the power to take away someone else’s life because of their race...everyone is capable.” (70:44)
- Hughes: “If we’re going to make today’s white people feel guilty for their ancestors' participation in slavery, then we should also make West Africans feel guilty for their participation.” (73:03)
- Akanbi: “If we think that only white people are capable of immoral behavior...we’re deluding ourselves to preserve a narrative, a narrative that is flawed.” (75:13)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On Conformity in Art:
- “We have a really conformist understanding of what it means to be radical.” — Ayishat Akanbi (07:35)
- On the Permission to Think:
- “Reading someone who was intelligent, a great writer who was black, and who was saying things that made total sense to me, but I had almost never heard anyone say, that does have an impact on you. It gives you a kind of permission to think.” — Coleman Hughes (13:57)
- On Free Speech:
- “To be anti free speech is to be anti curious.” — Ayishat Akanbi (16:11)
- On Identity:
- “The more obsessed we are with identity…the more attached we are to them…[it’s] very reductive of our characters.” — Ayishat Akanbi (23:57)
- On Demanded Apologies:
- “If you’ve asked for it, is it really an apology? I’m just trying to placate you.” — Ayishat Akanbi (42:33)
- On White Guilt:
- “More people are committed to making white people feel guilty than any kind of liberation of black people.” — Ayishat Akanbi (55:57)
- On Victimhood and Morality:
- “Victimhood is synonymous with virtue or innocence. …It’s a get out of jail free card…” — Ayishat Akanbi (66:20)
- On Universal Prejudice:
- “Racism and prejudice are human universals…we should all kind of own them.” — Coleman Hughes (73:03)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Ayishat’s Background & Fashion Beginnings: 03:28 – 06:17
- Conformity & Art World Politics: 06:17 – 09:24
- Free Speech vs. Safety: 16:11 – 22:54
- The Limits of Identity & Fixation: 23:41 – 27:35
- Discussion on Community & Open-Mindedness: 27:35 – 31:58
- In-group Critique & Maturity: 31:58 – 39:04
- Apologies, Historical Wrongs, Reparations: 42:19 – 52:32
- Activism, Social Media, White Guilt: 52:32 – 61:30
- Victimhood & Moral Exemption: 66:06 – 68:37
- Universalizing the Past & Prejudice: 70:44 – 77:10
Conclusion
This episode is a forthright and thoughtful examination of identity, discourse, and our collective need for nuance and mutual understanding. Both Coleman Hughes and Ayishat Akanbi challenge prevalent assumptions within progressive activism and identity politics, arguing for curiosity, open dialogue, and the courage to look inward, even when it’s uncomfortable or culturally frowned upon. Their exchange provides fresh perspective on what it means to seek genuine progress—beyond the limiting boundaries of prescribed identity narratives.