Conversations With Coleman: "The Problem of Race"

Glenn Loury and Coleman Hughes – Bonus Episode

October 2, 2020 | Hosted by The Free Press

Episode Overview

This special episode, originally recorded for the Intercollegiate Studies Institute, features a wide-ranging and candid discussion between economist and Brown University professor Glenn Loury and writer/podcaster Coleman Hughes. The main theme explores the complexities and evolution of race discourse in America, specifically focusing on definitions of racism, systemic versus individual perspectives, the role of anti-racism, campus culture, and cultural narratives around history and policy. Both speakers critically analyze contemporary movements and offer philosophical insights, practical advice for dissenters, and reflections on the path forward.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Defining Racism and Its Modern Usage

[02:33 – 06:14]

• Glenn Loury's View:
  • Racism at its core is an “unreasoning disdain, a belief in derogatory characteristics of a group without evidence, dislike of association or intimacy, aversion… based upon nothing other than the racial identity of the person.”
  • Today, the term is used expansively and often lacks boundaries: “To be opposed to affirmative action is to be racist. To cite statistics about the extent of African American participation in criminal activity is to be racist. To wear a MAGA hat is to be racist.” – Glenn Loury [03:28]
• Coleman Hughes' View:
  • Notes the shift towards perceiving racism as systemic, not confined to individual intent: “A system can be racist without anyone in the system being a racist… the system itself, just operating by its own logic and its own inertia, can produce racist outcomes.” – Coleman Hughes [04:54]
  • Critiques how this shift coexists with a persistent “obsession with finding people who are racists.”

2. Systemic Racism: Substance or Rhetoric?

[06:33 – 11:51]

• Glenn Loury:
  • Systemic racism often invoked in response to group disparities; it offers an alternative to “blaming the victim,” shifting focus from individual responsibility to historical/systemic factors.
• Coleman Hughes:
  • The vagueness of “systemic racism” is its power: “The reason it’s such a useful idea is precisely because it’s vague.” – Coleman Hughes [08:46]
  • Assumes disparities, not parity, are the default in multi-ethnic societies, referencing global ethnic differences as examples.

3. Anti-Racism: Movement or Mindset?

[11:51 – 16:24]

• Glenn Loury:
  • Views current anti-racism “mania” as institutional self-protection and “covering your ass.” Expresses discomfort with rituals of self-abasement and public expressions of guilt.
• Coleman Hughes:
  • Cites historian Barbara Fields: “Anti-racism is not a movement. It’s a starting point.” [13:31]
  • Argues most people are against racism in principle, but the current anti-racist movement is inseparable from a particular, controversial definition of racism – notably the “prejudice plus power” formulation that some use to claim racism cannot be directed against whites.
  • Emphasizes the need to debate foundational definitions rather than accept them prepackaged.

4. Advice for Conservatives and Dissenters

[16:24 – 22:12]

• Coleman Hughes:
  • Advises would-be dissenters to recognize real professional risks: “You stand a very high chance of losing face even for expressing the most nuanced and carefully worded and compelling answer that is skeptical of Black Lives Matter.” [17:25]
• Glenn Loury:
  • Recommends comparing our current moment to dissident experiences under communism: “This is bullying… a kind of domination of a person to feel like you have to withdraw within yourself and you can’t even say what you’re actually thinking.” [20:54]

5. Campus Culture and Free Expression

[22:12 – 27:27]

• Glenn Loury:
  • Professors like himself (already “out of the closet”) can speak freely, but students may not feel safe to do so.
• Coleman Hughes:
  • The classroom experience varies by professor; there is “dogmatic” teaching, especially on the left.
  • Advice for students: “Screen your professors before you take classes… find a group of people that are hungry to discuss all of these issues and start a club.” [26:18]

6. Debating Federal Moves and Historical Narratives (1619 Project, Diversity Training)

[27:32 – 34:32]

• Both speakers are wary of “struggle-session” style workplace diversity trainings and critical of unbalanced, journalist-driven narratives like the 1619 Project.
  • Glenn Loury: “Protecting employees from indoctrination sessions of the sort that I can imagine a Robin DiAngelo would propagate seems to me to be a perfectly defensible thing to do.” [28:57]
  • Coleman Hughes: “The worry… is that what they’re going to get in history class is going to turn them into an ungrateful, small minded hater of their own country to a degree that is totally irrational.” [31:09]

7. Recommended Resources

[33:25 – 36:51]

• History and Context:
  • Edmund Morgan, American Slavery, American Freedom (Hughes)
  • Peter Wood, 1620 (Loury) – direct rebuttal to the 1619 Project
  • Philip Magness on slavery and capitalism (Hughes)

8. The Search for Middle Ground & Polarization

[36:51 – 39:16]

• Both note the polarized environment, but reference organizations (e.g., Braver Angels) attempting to foster civil dialogue.

Highlighted Quotes & Notable Moments

• Definition of Modern Racism:

  • "Today, everything is racism, isn’t it? ... I don’t know what limits the definition of racism today."
    – Glenn Loury [03:28]

• Systemic Racism and "Vagueness":

  • "The reason it’s such a useful idea is precisely because it’s vague, not in spite of its vagueness."
    – Coleman Hughes [08:46]

• Anti-Racism as a Starting Point, Not a Movement:

  • “Anti-racism is not a movement. It’s a starting point.”
    – Barbara Fields, quoted by Coleman Hughes [13:31]

• Professional Risks of Speaking Out:

  • “You stand a very high chance of losing face even for expressing the most nuanced and carefully worded and compelling answer that is skeptical of Black Lives Matter.”
    – Coleman Hughes [17:25]

• Comparative Insight from Dissident Literature:

  • "Read what the East European intellectual dissidents do in Vaclav Havel’s telling in his book called the Power of the Powerless, and then think about your own situation."
    – Glenn Loury [21:27]

• Personal Worries about Education:

  • "The worry that I’m going to be justified in having is that what they’re going to get in history class is going to turn them into an ungrateful, small minded hater of their own country..."
    – Coleman Hughes [31:09]

On White Fragility and Privilege

[40:44 – 46:02]

• “It’s a very strange way to show you respect me as a black person to say you’ll never disagree with anything I say.... you have to accept what I’m saying. You have to admit that you’re racist as a starting point.”
  – Coleman Hughes [41:24]

• “This infantilization of black people... is, I think, what’s at the root of a lot of this emphasis on white privilege and so on.”
  – Glenn Loury [45:33]

Examples of Real Racism Today

[46:18 – 49:56]

• Discrimination in real estate, marriage markets, adoption, and egg donation reflects ongoing preferences by race.

How to Discuss History Without Over-Apologizing

[50:44 – 54:47]

• Acknowledging historical injustices does not require perpetual guilt or race-essentialism:
  • Coleman Hughes: “A frank acknowledgement of the sins of our history... does not... imply that white people have to be meditating on their privilege...” [53:36]
  • Glenn Loury: Cautions against simplistic causation and supports universalist remedies.

Healing the "Wound" of History

[57:02 – 62:28]

• Coleman Hughes: Expresses skepticism that reparations or policy can “heal” intergenerational trauma, compares it to therapy in which “there actually is no bottom.”
• Glenn Loury: Suggests such identification with ancestral trauma is irrational:
  • “Walking around burdened psychologically by the fact that some of your ancestors were enslaved 150 years ago… is not a rational posture.” [60:00]

Reflections on Change, Conservatism, and Moving Forward

What Would "Resolution" Look Like?

[65:04 – 68:31]

• No policy can abolish fatal encounters between police and citizens; expectations that “just stop killing us” will ever be fully met are unrealistic.

The Road Ahead: Cautious Pessimism

[68:54 – 74:19]

• Coleman Hughes: “Nothing continues indefinitely… but if I actually ask myself what would have to change... I can’t find a single thing other than a total reset of how people understand those videos.” [70:28]
• Glenn Loury: Draws parallels to eras of unrest from the ’60s and early ’90s; is “not optimistic” about escaping cycles of racial conflict without radical shifts in public ideology.

Evolution of Personal Views

[74:44 – 79:35]

• Loury: Details his movement between conservative and progressive stances over decades, noting both external and internal pressures.
• Hughes: Observes that what counts as “conservative” moves with the political landscape; equal treatment and colorblindness now considered conservative positions.

Areas of Potential Accord

[79:58 – 85:13]

• Both believe that, if given omnipotence, most Americans (right or left) would opt to end racial prejudice and maximize opportunity.
• Loury: Warns of the perils of race essentialism and group-based outcomes: “The notion that race is the central thing driving these outcomes is wrong. It’s just an error. People should be disabused of it.” [83:35]

Timestamps to Key Segments

• [02:33] Defining Racism: Old vs. New Usage
• [06:33] Systemic Racism: Blaming System vs. Individual
• [12:07] Anti-Racism and Its Critique
• [16:59] Advice for Dissenters
• [22:27] College Campus Experiences
• [27:32] Trump’s Reaction to Diversity Trainings and the 1619 Project
• [33:41] Education/Resource Recommendations
• [40:44] White Fragility and White Privilege Debated
• [46:18] Where Does Racism Persist?
• [50:46] Discussing Racist Incidents Without Systemic Rhetoric
• [57:20] “Closing the Wound” of Slavery and Psychological Ramifications
• [65:31] What Would Satisfy BLM?
• [68:54] Can America Ever Move Past This?
• [74:44] Evolution of Loury’s and Hughes’ Views
• [79:58] Room for Common Ground
• [83:35] Loury’s Final Reflection on Group Disparities

Closing Notion

Both Loury and Hughes argue for a principled, rational, and universalist approach to issues of race—resisting the pull of essentialism and constant group-based grievance. Their perspectives reflect a deep concern for intellectual honesty, resilience in the face of social pressure, and a search for ways to move American society beyond its fraught history and polarized present.

End of Summary