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Podcast Summary: Conversations With Coleman — The Tribal Instinct with Amy Chua [S2 Ep.8]
Date: March 26, 2021
Host: Coleman Hughes
Guest: Amy Chua, Yale Law Professor and author of World on Fire, Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother, Political Tribes, and The Triple Package
Theme: Exploring the roots and implications of tribalism—political, ethnic, and cultural—in America and abroad
Episode Overview
This episode delves into the concept of tribalism with Amy Chua, focusing on how group identity shapes conflict, success, and policy in societies around the world. Chua and Hughes discuss the overlooked role of "market dominant minorities," U.S. foreign policy failures, the "model minority myth," cultural transmission of success, race-conscious versus colorblind policies, and the rise of intra-white tribal tensions in American politics. The conversation is rich with nuanced perspectives on group identity, bias, and the challenges of maintaining a pluralistic democracy.
Defining Tribalism and Its Dangers
[03:46] Amy Chua:
- Humans are tribal by nature: "We need to belong to groups... Once we connect to a group, we tend to want to defend it and cling to it and think of that group as better in every way."
- Tribalism is not inherently bad—it's seen in families, sports, etc.—but becomes dangerous when it dominates politics:
"When tribalism...takes over a political system...Everybody just sees everything through their group's lens and basically just wants to take down the other side no matter what." —Amy Chua [04:36]
Foreign Policy and the "Market Dominant Minority" Concept
[05:03] Amy Chua:
-
U.S. foreign policy has repeatedly failed to recognize the importance of ethnic and sectarian conflict in places like Iraq and Vietnam:
"In Iraq...the Sunnis...were only about 10 or 15% of the population, they actually controlled a disproportionate amount of Iraq's economy...when you just democratize...in countries...that have totally different ethnic dynamics...you don’t just get peace and prosperity." —Amy Chua [06:19]
-
The assumption that democracy and free markets will lead to harmony is naive; democratization can fuel majority resentment and revenge:
"Elections actually...give voice to this majority that is very resentful...and they use their new power...not to build bridges...but basically for revenge." —Amy Chua [08:36]
American Exceptionalism (and Blind Spots)
[10:11] Amy Chua:
- Americans are comfortable understanding persecuted, disenfranchised minorities, but struggle with the idea of powerful minorities.
"Westerners and especially Americans get super uncomfortable...We can't talk about this...We’re actually really unfamiliar with this dynamic." —Amy Chua [11:00]
- The U.S. naively applies its own history of assimilation and relative ethnic success to very different societies.
[12:00] Coleman Hughes:
- Observes that Britain had a highly ethnic-conscious colonial strategy, unlike the American approach:
"The British were so ethnically conscious during their whole colonial rule, they did this divide and conquer thing. So...it allowed them to basically be in power..." —Amy Chua [12:41]
Economic Resentment as the Root of Ethnic Conflict
[13:35] Coleman Hughes:
- References Thomas Sowell’s work on Jews as a "generic" market dominant minority and the link between economic resentment and ethnic hatred:
"This is a generic human phenomenon that often leads to riots, persecutions and even genocides that we misunderstand as mere racism." —Coleman Hughes [14:20]
[14:46] Amy Chua:
- Agrees but notes that economic resentment isn't the sole source and gives historical nuance concerning the Jewish experience.
The Model Minority Myth and Ethnic Success
[15:52] Amy Chua:
- Explains the "model minority" myth’s pitfalls—over-generalizing Asian Americans, ignoring internal diversity and struggles.
"I object to its overuse...because...more facts, the better. Let’s get all the information out there." —Amy Chua [17:44]
- Notes immigrant generational differences:
"...by the time you get to the third generation, they [Asian Americans] do not outperform any Americans. So...it's not something genetic...a lot of it is very much about the immigrant experience and it's generational." —Amy Chua [18:39]
Cultural Traits and Social Mobility: The Triple Package
[21:09] Amy Chua:
- Discusses her book The Triple Package (with Jeb Rubenfeld):
- Three shared traits of successful groups: a superiority complex, insecurity, and impulse control.
- Emphasizes that these traits are not genetic or fixed and can be developed by anyone.
"It was interesting that on the one hand you're getting...privileged...people [saying] don't talk about this...On the other hand...charter schools...love this..." —Amy Chua [23:16]
[25:03] Coleman Hughes:
- Notes that "normal people like being told that they’re in control of their destiny" and corroborates the HBCU embrace of Chua’s research.
Class, Cultural Markers, and Intra-White Tribalism
[29:43] Coleman Hughes:
- Raises colorblind versus race-conscious approaches to policy, citing France (colorblind) vs. Singapore (race-conscious) [29:43].
[30:49] Amy Chua:
- Proposes the "supergroup" concept: America at its best allows sub-group identity to flourish alongside a strong, ethnically neutral national identity.
"What’s amazing about America is that we don’t need to choose between a strong overarching national identity and multiculturalism." —Amy Chua [32:34]
[38:57] Coleman Hughes:
- Draws on Eric Kaufman’s White Shift: expressing ethnic/national pride is psychologically universal but constrained by American racial history.
- Chua highlights:
"Right now...white people almost became the only group that you can't take pride in your background." —Amy Chua [41:01]
- This pressure may fuel the rise of toxic forms of white identity politics.
Political Tribalism: Red vs. Blue and the New "Ethnic" Divide
[42:17] Coleman Hughes:
- Proposes the idea that white progressives' anti-white rhetoric is really about in-group vs. out-group (red tribe vs. blue tribe) rather than true self-critique.
[44:13] Amy Chua:
- Suggests the cultural divide between elite "coastal" whites and "heartland" whites resembles a new ethnic barrier:
"The difference now between basically...Trump's base...and the woke coastal elite whites...it's almost like an ethnic difference..." —Amy Chua [44:41]
- Cites rates of intermarriage, language, and other cultural markers as evidence.
[46:25] Coleman Hughes:
- Notes that political affiliation now rivals or surpasses race as a source of implicit bias and social division ([48:32], [51:02]).
- Chua notes cultural shibboleths and signaling have become new tribal boundaries ([49:14]).
The Perils of Political Tribalism
[52:34] Amy Chua:
- Reiterates that tribalism is destructive when it infects politics, drawing parallels to failed states she’s studied:
"It is very bad, when tribalism infects the political system...We can't let that happen here..." —Amy Chua [52:42]
- America has the best "framework" to overcome this, but current trends are perilous.
"It's very dangerous when half the country views the other half not just as people they want to argue with, but literally as evil, un-American people, because that's a recipe for civil war." —Amy Chua [54:26]
Cancel Culture: Realities and Hope
[55:20] Amy Chua:
- Confirms cancel culture exists, often hitting less powerful figures hardest.
- Shares her own experience of being ostracized after writing about Brett Kavanaugh’s mentorship prior to the accusations:
"...no matter how established you are, it is extremely unpleasant...I think that there is a huge silent majority that just wants to be able to debate..." —Amy Chua [57:04]
- Expresses cautious optimism: if people stand firm, there is a "silent majority" eager for open discourse.
Notable Quotes
- “Human beings are tribal creatures...once we connect to a group, we tend to want to defend it...think of that group as better in every way.” —Amy Chua [03:48]
- “Elections...give voice to this majority that is very resentful...and they use their new power...not to build bridges...but basically for revenge.” —Amy Chua [08:36]
- “It’s not something genetic in Asian Americans...a lot of it is very much about the immigrant experience...this kind of drive and motivation fades usually by the third generation.” —Amy Chua [18:36]
- “What’s amazing about America is that we don’t need to choose between a strong overarching national identity and multiculturalism. We can have both...” —Amy Chua [32:34]
- “It's very dangerous when half the country views the other half...literally as evil, un-American people, because that's a recipe for civil war.” —Amy Chua [54:26]
Key Timestamps
- [03:46] — Definition of tribalism, significance in politics
- [05:03] — U.S. foreign policy failures and market dominant minorities
- [13:35] — Economic resentment and the roots of ethnic hatred
- [15:52] — The model minority myth and its implications
- [21:09] — The “triple package” and traits of successful groups
- [29:43] — Race conscious vs. colorblind policy; America as a “supergroup”
- [38:57] — Ethnic pride, white identity, and shifting taboos
- [42:17] — Political tribes and intra-white differences
- [52:34] — Dangers of political tribalism in America
- [55:20] — Cancel culture: Amy Chua’s experience and cultural climate
Additional Memorable Moments
- Chua's observation about elite progressive scolding of ambitious first-generation or poor students ([26:11])
- Anecdotes about shifting language codes and cultural tests as tribal markers ([49:14])
- Coleman and Chua's discussion on how political identity has become more salient than race in social divisions ([48:32], [51:02])
Conclusion
Amy Chua and Coleman Hughes provide a far-reaching discussion about the primal forces behind group identity, the pitfalls of ignoring complex ethnic realities, and the present dangers of political tribalism in the U.S. Chua's hope for American pluralism and "supergroup" identity competes with her caution about current divides. Both highlight the importance of honest dialogue, open-mindedness, and institutional impartiality as the best defenses against the dark side of tribal thinking.