Podcast Summary: Conversations With Coleman

Episode: "WikiLeaks and Whistleblowing: An Exposé That Shook The World" with Julian Assange (S3 Ep.24)

Date: July 31, 2022
Host: Coleman Hughes (The Free Press)
Guest: Julian Assange (interview conducted by Desh Amila)

Episode Overview

This episode features a rare, never-before-published interview with WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, conducted by Desh Amila in 2017 while Assange was living in the Ecuadorian embassy in London. Instead of hosting, Coleman Hughes uses his platform to broadcast this discussion, introducing it with a balanced disclaimer about not endorsing Assange or WikiLeaks, and reflecting on the complex ethical landscape of whistleblowing, freedom of information, and collateral damage.

The conversation covers WikiLeaks’ origins, philosophy, operational challenges, money and media dynamics, whistleblower ethics, the shifting sands of global politics, and Assange’s own personal and legal battles—culminating in a thoughtful Q&A with a live audience.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. WikiLeaks: Origins, Structure, and Funding

Assange describes WikiLeaks as:

• “A small multinational publishing organization. We have people in every continent except Antarctica.” (05:59)
• Funding woes due to a politically motivated banking blockade from Visa, Mastercard, PayPal, and more, leading to use and investment in Bitcoin:
  • “We have, I don’t know, a few million in Bitcoin in the bank which has been appreciating. It’s quite hard to cash out actually.” (06:14)
  • “We lost 97% of our income” due to the blockade. (08:07)

2. Life in the Embassy & Security Pressures

• Daily life split between legal battles (“a dozen different court cases”), running the organization, and navigating internal embassy politics.
• Security threats: infiltration, bribery, bugging, “robot cameras around the embassy.” (09:10)
• On embassy staff relations:
  • “The Ecuadorian embassy represents the Ecuadorian people, but it also represents the Ecuadorian state. So...demarcation issues with embassy stuff versus my stuff.” (10:45)
• On visitors: Security is “an extremely serious intelligence siege which the UK government admits, just on the police component...is spending £4 million a year.” (11:20)

3. Suffering and Narrative Management as a Whistleblower

• Assange resists the narrative of inevitable suffering for whistleblowers:
  • “It’s not a form of natural justice. That’s complete rubbish. It’s a form of artificial, corrupted justice where the... justice system [is] thrown to the wind because of politics.” (12:38)
• Most whistleblowers’ stories remain untold: “999 of a thousand don’t have any problems. They’re invisible...and go on and live their happy and now slightly more fulfilled, slightly more paranoid lives.” (14:53)

4. Lack of Support from Australia

• Australian governments have done “nothing” for him (“They brought me a pen when I was in prison and some paper...That’s it.” (17:29))
• On Australian identity: “Australia doesn’t really exist, you know, as a state. It doesn’t actually exist....It’s a colonial country that doesn’t have a sense of itself.” (19:07)

5. Shifting Political Alliances and Legacy

• On being alternately demonized and lauded by left and right:
  • “You, at one point in time, were kind of the darling of the left. Then during the last election, you became kind of the darling of the right...How do you feel about that?” (19:41)
  • Memorable answer: “David Duke, I guess [is most embarrassing]. But...he trolls, basically...to get his name into the press.” (20:16)
• He praises figures who shift positions on principle, e.g., Sarah Palin:
  • “She should be applauded for...having the courage to overturn a previous position.” (22:11)

6. Swedish and US Legal Battles

• “I was cleared in 2010...The case was closed and dropped. I’ve never been charged. It’s at the stage of preliminary investigation.” (25:11)
• Anticipates US indictment/sealed extradition and intensive global law enforcement efforts:
  • “...Grand jury which has sucked in people from all over the world...plane loads of FBI and prosecutors to different countries to interrogate people, to fit people out with wires and so on.” (26:52)
• Status as a refugee: “It shouldn’t be a matter of presidential whim. It’s not in law. A matter of presidential whim.” (30:30)

7. WikiLeaks’ Philosophy and Information Ethics

• On media/wikipedia manipulation: “All the political topics on Wikipedia...represents those clash of forces and who has the numbers and who has the resources to invest and who has managed to infiltrate or naturally be in this chain of hierarchy.” (31:49)
• Goal of WikiLeaks:
  • “You can’t build a just civilization out of lies.” (35:18)
  • “WikiLeaks is designed to…produce the base ingredients that you need for rational discourse.” (35:18)
  • “We believe in the virtuous civilization comes from knowledge...we work to promote the rights of people to have knowledge...And number three, that we're opposed to war and that war is the most unjust thing that civilizations do.” (35:18-38:51)

8. Verification and Source Protection

• Technical explanation on cryptographic “secret spices” for email authenticity:
  • “A cryptographic signature is added to the emails...mathematical proof that it hasn’t been changed since the point that it went through that system.” (41:50)
• Asserts a “10 year perfect record of authentication across a million documents.” (41:08)

9. Curation, Redaction, and Criticism

• On curation debate with Snowden and Greenwald:
  • “We’re in the business of not engaging as much as we can in the corrupt business of censorship...redactions should be minimal only when there’s a really credible concern about human rights violations on that person.” (43:35)
• Claims privacy concerns over leaks about Turkish women voters or outing Saudi gay men are “made up 100%. We never publish such information at all, ever.” (48:39)
• On regret:
  • “Has there been a leak that you’ve published that you’ve regretted in hindsight?”
  • Assange: “Well, probably everything.” (49:24, laughs)
  • But more seriously: “Nothing that we've published has ever hurt anyone physically. The US government had to admit that under oath in the Chelsea Manning trial.” (49:32)

10. US Election, Russia, and Leaks

• On DNC Leaks:
  • “The popular candidate Bernie Sanders, who almost certainly would have won against Donald Trump, [was] suppressed in a corrupt manner...” (55:06)
  • Hillary Clinton’s campaign: “We published her secret speeches, which were a journalistic holy grail.” (55:06)
• Denies coordination with Roger Stone:
  • “We had no contact with Roger Stone. He’s just channeling what our public statements were in the media, that things were coming.” (58:02)
  • “What is Roger Stone famous for? Tell me, what is he famous for?” (58:16)
  • “He is just famous for inserting himself in every situation.” (58:20)
• On DNC/Podesta leak source:
  • “It’s not someone from a state. This is not a state thing.” (54:33)

11. Rise in Leaks and Changing Political Landscape

• On intelligence community leaking against Trump:
  • “They’re all going WikiLeaks, right? I just want to see them go full WikiLeaks, which is...pristine documents.” (59:57)
  • “There’s not been such scrutiny of the deep state since the 1970s and the Church Committee. I think that’s a marvelous thing.” (61:51)
  • “The new Republican base is becoming some kind of anti-war, anti-intelligence movement...Who would imagine a year ago that was possible?” (61:51)
• On dangers of Cabinet militarization:
  • “Trump...in response to that opposition by the intelligence agencies, is leaning on another part of the hard power of the state, which is the military...the cabinet becomes militarized.” (66:53)

12. Audience Q&A: Philosophy, Impact, and the Future

• On WikiLeaks’ unique contribution:
  • “What is special about WikiLeaks is that it’s not just another damn story... WikiLeaks provides raw history about how institutions actually behave...” (75:17)
  • Assange’s favorite leak: Danish government’s deal to shut down Kurdish TV for NATO promotion (77:30)
• On psychological health: animals in captivity, embassy cat, missing wildlife (81:55)
• On elite families: “Their influence is overstated. There’s a lot of other families that are not so well known that have very significant influence.” (84:29)
• On identity politics and Democratic Party collapse:
  • “The relationship between the Democrats and class was replaced by identity politics as Democrats professionalized into the upper middle class.” (87:43)
• John Pilger’s support: “He co-founded my defence fund here together with a very good friend who’s died a few months ago, Gavin McFadden, effectively my father in the UK. He’s a good guy. Pilger.” (89:32)
• On timing and impact of leaks:
  • “The real value in WikiLeaks is it is a wonderful library that you can trust about how modern institutions actually behave....But the library has to be marketed. The scandal generation business, which we’re also in, I just view as a kind of marketing effort for what is much more substantial, which is our archive.” (93:21)

13. Assange’s View on Trump-Era Geopolitics

• On US/Russia and global reaction to Trump:
  • “Germany can no longer look to the US for leadership...Australia needs its own independent foreign policy. So I think these are incredibly positive developments.” (95:48)
  • “Something very important is happening.” (99:30)

Notable Quotes and Moments

“You can’t build a just civilization out of falsehoods... WikiLeaks is a quaint old-fashioned Enlightenment project to produce the base ingredients for rational discourse.”
— Julian Assange (35:18)

“Nothing that we’ve published has ever hurt anyone physically. The US government had to admit that under oath in the Chelsea Manning trial.”
— Julian Assange (49:32)

“We want to see pristine documents that people can analyze and argue about. We don’t see that...in relation to Trump and Flynn. ...We don’t like that too much.”
— Julian Assange (59:57)

“I have to say, it’s not just me. I mean, Australia doesn’t really exist, you know, as a state. It doesn’t actually exist.”
— Julian Assange (18:51)

“The relationship between the Democrats and class was replaced by identity politics as Democrats professionalized into the upper middle class...That’s not something that...has the numbers and is a bit politically incoherent. And so they have degraded and they should go under.”
— Julian Assange (87:43)

“What is special about WikiLeaks is that it’s...not just another damn story. It’s that sea of information... that rebel library of Alexandria...”
— Julian Assange (75:17)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:10] – Assange on WikiLeaks’ staff, structure, why they used Bitcoin
• [09:10] – Life in the embassy, daily routines, security threats
• [11:55] – Social, mental, physical impacts of confinement and media narratives about whistleblower suffering
• [16:50] – Disappointment in Australian government support
• [19:41] – Discussion of left/right perception and “being loved and hated”
• [25:11] – Swedish legal case background and US indictment speculation
• [31:49] – Wikipedia/media manipulation, philosophy of open leaks
• [35:18] – Underlying justification for WikiLeaks (“can’t build just civilization out of lies”)
• [41:08] – Document authentication and source protection
• [43:35] – Redaction philosophy and criticism from Snowden/Greenwald
• [52:38] – 2016 election, DNC leaks, Russia, Roger Stone, and fake news debate
• [61:51] – Deep state, intelligence agencies vs. Trump, reshaped partisan politics
• [69:58] – The future: WikiLeaks, mass media, and social media’s effects on politics
• [75:17] – Audience Q&A: What’s unique about WikiLeaks in the information age?
• [81:55] – The psychological importance of animals (embassy cat story)
• [84:29] – Elite families and real power structures in the US
• [87:43] – Identity politics, Democrats, and class
• [93:21] – Why timing of leaks/publication matters
• [95:48] – Trump, Russia, the global order, and reactions in Germany/Australia

Tone and Language

The tone is sharp, often sardonic, candid, and deeply analytical. Desh Amila’s questions—sometimes irreverent, occasionally pressing—draw out long-form, thoughtful (often philosophical) answers from Assange, who is direct and sometimes combative. Humor, especially dark irony, surfaces throughout, keeping a reflective edge on what is otherwise a high-stakes discussion about truth, power, media, and dissent.

Conclusion

This exclusive interview with Julian Assange offers a rare window into the mind of one of the most controversial figures in 21st-century media and politics. The episode traverses the granular (embassy routines, Bitcoin funding, embassy cat) to the global (information warfare, journalism ethics, state power, and democracy), anchoring WikiLeaks as both a disruptor and a flashpoint for debate on freedom, transparency, and the cost of truth. Assange remains defiant and undaunted, relentless in his advocacy for radical transparency—while also acknowledging ambiguity, regret, and the shifting tides of history.