← CounterClock
CounterClock
Ep 10 of 11: Justice?
00:50:39
Delia unravels a bizarre van ride that Jessicah Black was taken on and discovers a dark history within Forsyth County regarding wrongful convictions. Chris Paul’s memoir about his late grandfather provides insight into how the famous athlete has reconciled with where the case stands now. The age-old legal maxim: “Justice delayed is justice denied” comes under scrutiny.
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- [00:00]
Delia D'Ambra
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- [01:17]
Nathaniel
People when booking with other vacation rental apps Sounds like this.
- [01:22]
Delia D'Ambra
This place doesn't look like the pictures. Is there a door behind all those spiders? It's time to try one. That sounds more like a vacation. Ah, this is perfect. Relax. You booked a VRBO. This is episode 10 Justice. Typically, when the phrase it's got momentum is used to describe a criminal case, that conveys an investigation or prosecution is progressing toward resolution. But here's the thing about momentum. It's defined as a driving force, something that builds and keeps building, maybe even to the point of getting out of control. So the question is, is momentum always a good thing in a criminal case? Can it also become a point of no return? Imagine with me for a second that it's sometime in 2003 in your 16 year old Jessica Black. It's been a few months since you confessed to Winston Salem Police detectives about who you say killed Mr. Jones. The boys from Southside are in jail awaiting trial, your car is still in police custody and you're sitting at home wishing it would all just go away. Then a van pulls up in your driveway. Inside is Forsyth County's Chief Assistant District Attorney Eric Saunders, a Tall, middle aged white man who you don't like, but you've gotten to know because you're his star witness. In the driver's seat of the van, there's a white guy you don't recognize, and in the backseat is a black woman you've never seen before. You get in, the door slides closed and the van takes off. Eric then turns to you and makes an introduction.
- [03:07]
Jessica Black
He had come and picked me up in the van with a woman that he said was his daughter, was Mr. Jones daughter, and said they wanted to take a ride like, and go. However we had went that day and you know, just to see things. Then they took me by the house and showed me where he was laying. They showed me pictures of him. And she said that she wasn't, she wasn't mad at me and she hugged me.
- [03:36]
Delia D'Ambra
The woman embracing you, you're told, is one of Mr. Jones grieving daughters, Robyn, or maybe it was Rhonda. You can't really remember. You never get introduced to the silent man who's behind the steering wheel. And this field trip through Winston Salem's south side lasts for longer than you imagined.
- [03:54]
Jessica Black
I was in that van for hours.
- [03:58]
Delia D'Ambra
After you get back home, you internally bury this experience in the same place you're putting everything else, a deep cavern in your heart that you plan to thoroughly suppress for the rest of your life. But fast forward 16 years to 2019, and you're now messaging with a reporter from the Houston Chronicle who you've begun to trust. When you met him in person at a pancake restaurant in Winston Salem a few weeks back, you told him about the weird van ride from all those years ago, which was a story up until that point, you'd never told anyone else. But he sends you a puzzling response. He's just interviewed Mr. Jones daughters and neither of them remember going on any van ride with you and Eric Saunders.
- [04:44]
Jessica Black
I was like, what? I went on a van ride with a daughter. Like, that's what I was told.
- [04:49]
Delia D'Ambra
A few months later at the 2020 North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission eight member panel, the topic comes up again. This time you're testifying under oath and a woman on the board is very curious about this van ride.
- [05:02]
Jessica Black
You mentioned that the da, Eric Sanders.
- [05:08]
Nathaniel
Picked you up with a minivan and there was an African American woman in there and that you, it was your understanding that that was one of the Mr. Jones's daughters. Absolutely. And did the DA tell you that, that that was. And the. Did the DA say this is. Yes.
- [05:31]
Delia D'Ambra
Yes.
- [05:32]
Jessica Black
He said that she would. She Lied that she wanted to meet me and that we were just gonna go on a ride and pretty much go around and I guess traveled the same roads we traveled that night. And I don't know who was driving. Somebody was driving. He was in the backseat with her and me. And when they pulled up to get me, I mean, she shook my hand, and she was so friendly and super nice. And we rode around and we talked. And then he took me by Mr. Jones house and pointed out, he said, right there is where he was. And then after the ride was over, they took me home. Now, later, did you find out that that was not one of Mr. Jones daughters? I did not know until I sat down with Hunter Atkins and he was talking to me. And he had spoke with the daughters of Mr. Jones. Because I told him, I was like, you know, I went on the zam ride. And he said that the ones he interviews between the. Between the lawyers and the daughters and among others, that nobody knew about this ride. And I was like, I couldn't understand why nobody knew about this van ride. And he said that he asked them in their interviews had they, you know, did either one of them participate in that ride? And they said that they would have been appalled had they been asked to participate in a ride like that. So that's when I was informed that it was not either one of them. Have the daughters.
- [07:25]
Delia D'Ambra
Shortly after Jessica Black made those statements, a member of the panel asked her if she recognized anyone in a group of spectators sitting in the courtroom. Mr. Jones daughters were among those people, but Jessica said she'd never seen any of them. The commission's investigators testified that they'd tried to identify the unknown black woman Jessica said had been in the van with her. And Eric even going so far as asking a Forsyth county assistant district attorney named Jennifer Martin, who was a black woman, if she'd posed as one of Mr. Jones daughters. But she denied doing so. There wasn't a shred of paperwork to prove the van ride happened. Ms. Martin told the commission that she had not done that and would never do it. The victims denied being involved in the van ride. And nothing that we have reviewed indicates that the victim's family went on any kind of van ride with the DA we have not been able to otherwise determine who that person was or could have been in the van. Eric Saunders died in 2012, and shortly after that, so did his co counsel who'd worked with him on the Jones case. So in the end, the identity of the woman from the van and the whole incident in general was Left unresolved. Jessyca is certain the van ride happened Even though the DA's office has no paper trail. Maybe that was intentional on Eric Saunders part, who knows? But my question is, what would have been the point of having 16 year old Jessica ride around with a woman who claimed to be Mr. Jones daughter? Chris Muma Rayshawn Banner and Nathaniel Cawthon's attorney believes she knows.
- [09:06]
Chris Muma
Trying to get her to feel the grief of the victim's family. Try and, you know, encourage her that she's doing the right thing, you know, putting these guilty boys away, you know, make her stronger in her conviction to testify at the trials. Somebody clearly lied to a witness about who they were, but they'd really. Everybody sweeps that under the rugs, like nobody wants to talk about that. It's very strange the way it really gets written off.
- [09:39]
Delia D'Ambra
If that was the intention, that seems like a pretty unethical thing for a prosecutor to do with a witness. I asked retired Winston Salem police Detective Chuck Byram, who'd worked with Eric Saunders a lot, for his take on the whole van ride incident. Do you think that this van ride took place, though?
- [09:57]
Chuck Byram
It could have.
- [09:58]
Delia D'Ambra
Why?
- [10:00]
Chuck Byram
You're asking the wrong person.
- [10:02]
Delia D'Ambra
Do you think it would have been in his character to do something like this?
- [10:06]
Chris Muma
Van ride?
- [10:07]
Delia D'Ambra
Yeah. Do you see that as problematic?
- [10:10]
Chuck Byram
Oh, yeah. Of what use could it possibly be in court? None.
- [10:16]
Delia D'Ambra
According to Chuck, the van ride shenanigans fit right into Eric's reputation as a win no matter what prosecutor, which was a characterization Chuck had made about him previously.
- [10:27]
Chuck Byram
Eric was. What's the word? Tenacious.
- [10:32]
Delia D'Ambra
That seems like you're being mild. Yeah.
- [10:34]
Chuck Byram
Yeah, I am. When? When? When? Well, what about what's right? What about justice? When?
- [10:46]
Delia D'Ambra
What about justice? Turns out Winston Salem and Forsyth county has a really dark history of defining that term. In 1984, when Mark Rabel, Jamal Tolliver's lawyer, was just starting out as a criminal defense attorney in Winston Salem, he was asked to represent a young black man named Daryl Hunt. Darrell's arrest was a massive news story from the moment it happened. Here's former Winston Salem Journal reporter Michael Hewlett.
- [11:15]
Michael Hewlett
He was about 19 years old. He was accused of raping and murdering Deborah Sykes, who was a copy editor at the afternoon newspaper the Sentinel. And Daryl Hunt was black. Deborah Sykes was white.
- [11:32]
Delia D'Ambra
There's a documentary about Daryl's case called the Trials of Daryl Hunt that I highly recommend you watch because I can't go into every detail here, but the main thing you need to know is that Darrell maintained he was Innocent of sexually assaulting and murdering Deborah Sykes. However, Winston Salem police arrested him anyway, based off a witness statement, not evidence. He was tried, convicted, and sentenced to life in prison. He appealed and was granted a second trial after the witness who'd testified against him recanted. At the conclusion of the retrial, an all white jury found him guilty once again.
- [12:08]
Michael Hewlett
There were a lot of people in the black community at that time who thought he was being wrongfully convicted.
- [12:14]
Delia D'Ambra
In the mid-90s, when DNA testing on semen preserved from Deborah Sykes body proved Darrell wasn't a match, the state of North Carolina still wouldn't listen. The prosecutor on the case, who just so happened to be Eric Saunders, claimed that DNA testing wasn't trustworthy and shouldn't be considered accurate. He was proved dead wrong. More than a decade later.
- [12:38]
Michael Hewlett
It was not until 2000, the end part of 2003, that new DNA testing led to someone else who had been looked at back in the day. Willard Brown.
- [12:51]
Delia D'Ambra
Once the DNA linked that guy to the crime, authorities spoke to him and he confessed. He said he knew all along Darrell was innocent. And in 2004, Darrell was exonerated and let out of prison after serving close to two decades behind bars.
- [13:07]
Brad Bannon
It's very clear that Darrell Hunt was innocent. It's very clear that there was a concerted effort to convict him and then to keep him convicted. Even as evidence developed to prove that he was innocent. Rather than accepting that with an open mind, the authorities just simply changed their position.
- [13:25]
Delia D'Ambra
That change being, the DA's office was saying they no longer believed Darrell was the killer. He'd just been present for the crime.
- [13:35]
Michael Hewlett
Daryl Hunt, he was just part of a group of people who raped her.
- [13:39]
Brad Bannon
And it seemed to be that the common thread there was not necessarily to get to the truth and to make sure that we achieve justice or that we correct an injustice. It's that we preserve a conviction. And that's because the system is built to achieve and preserve convictions.
- [14:00]
Michael Hewlett
They just like pick this poor black kid and it's like, well, he's the one that did it. And then we're just gonna build a case. And eventually the conclusion was, yeah, he was wrongfully convicted, that there were lots of problems, that the police made a lot of mistakes in terms of I. There was at least one person where it looks like they got too familiar with the witness and maybe influenced what the witness said.
- [14:28]
Delia D'Ambra
After his release, Darrell sued the city of Winston Salem and won more than a million dollars in damages. Tragically, he took his own life a few years later at the age of 51. Darrell's case wasn't an outlier, though. It was one of several cases handled by the Winston Salem police department and Forsyth County DA's office in the 80s and Ninet scrutinized because of allegations of racial bias and poor investigative practices. Another case was that of Calvin Michael Smith, a black man who was accused of robbing and beating within an inch of her life a pregnant white woman named Jill Marker, who was working as a clerk at a Winston Salem store in 1995. He claimed for nearly 20 years that he was innocent of the crime, but the state always fought back, despite community review committees finding major flaws in law enforcement's tactics and investigation. Even after two witnesses later recanted their testimony against Calvin and another man named Kenneth Lamoureau was considered a viable suspect, Forsyth county prosecutors wouldn't budge. In 2016, a judge ruled that Calvin should be released because he'd successfully argued his trial attorneys had been ineffective. However, the state of North Carolina never formally exonerated him. Calvin died in 2023. He was 52 years old.
- [15:52]
Chris Muma
Some of the officers involved in this case are the same ones that were involved in Michael Smith, so there's definitely a pattern.
- [16:00]
Michael Hewlett
I think prosecutors and police are loathe to admit they got something wrong. Even in the Daryl hunt case, the DA's office was very resistant over a long period of time, even as the case was falling apart, to admit no Daryl Hunt might be innocent until it got to the point of, oh, we have a new suspect. Police and prosecutors see themselves as we are the good guys. How dare you accuse us of misconduct, of hiding evidence, of putting someone away who might be innocent. And so they become defensive, and they want a process where if someone goes to trial, that's it.
- [16:47]
Chris Muma
District attorneys are elected in the state.
- [16:50]
Delia D'Ambra
Of North Carolina, and so any decision to reduce a charge or dismiss a.
- [16:56]
Chris Muma
Charge or to agree to an exoneration can be politically difficult. Winston Salem has not had a learning moment yet, and it just. The bias is just so obvious.
- [17:12]
Delia D'Ambra
Brad Bannon, Christopher Bryant's attorney, has a slightly more merciful perspective on the past sins of the Winston Salem Police Department.
- [17:21]
Brad Bannon
To advocate for Chris Bryant and Jamal Toliver and Darrell Brayboy and Nathaniel Cawthon and Rayshawn Banner. And to grant them the relief they seek does not require you to indict the police for anything. You know, it's not just simply that they were doing their job, but they were doing it in the way they were trained to do it at that time. It's my hope that when you're putting together whatever final product you have here, that everyone gets the benefit of a nuanced portrayal and one that is not easily demonized or caricatured or cartoonized. What I, you know, push back against and what frustrates me sometimes is the inability to step back and say, well, now we do have more information about this and this, and now maybe we can reassess what we did initially and what the conclusions were that we reached initially. And that's all we're, that's all we're fighting for here.
- [18:31]
Delia D'Ambra
I naturally tend to think like Brad, you know, give people grace. Try not to judge too harshly, but my attitude changed about halfway through producing this season after some truly bizarre things began to happen. One time, all life forgiven Norwegian Cruise Line invites you to experience experience more in the Caribbean, Alaska, Europe and beyond. For a limited time, get 50% off all cruises and enjoy NCL's all new more at sea cruising package including unlimited open bar, specialty dining and more. Visit ncl.com, call your travel advisor or 1-888-NCL cruise offer ends soon Norwegian Cruise Line ships registry the Bahamas and USA restrictions apply. Oh my God. It's the coolest thing ever. Hey guys, have you heard of Goldbelly?
- [19:25]
Jessica Black
Well, check this out. It's this amazing site where they the.
- [19:28]
Chris Muma
Most iconic famous foods from restaurants across.
- [19:31]
Delia D'Ambra
The country anywhere nationwide.
- [19:33]
Chris Muma
I've never found a more perfect gift than food.
- [19:36]
Delia D'Ambra
They ship Chicago deep dish pizza, New York bagels, Maine lobster rolls and even.
- [19:40]
Chris Muma
Ina Garten's famous cakes.
- [19:42]
Delia D'Ambra
Seriously.
- [19:43]
Jessica Black
So if you're looking for a gift.
- [19:44]
Chris Muma
For the food lover in your Life.
- [19:46]
Jessica Black
Head to goldbelly.com and get 20% off.
- [19:48]
Delia D'Ambra
Your first order with promo code gift. Early on, after I got the green light from Chris Muma that I could interview her clients in prison, I submitted a request to the North Carolina Department of Adult Corrections to facilitate visiting Rayshawn and Nathaniel, which is something the state allows journalists to do. The communications office approved my request, the gear I planned to bring, and gave me specific instructions to send letters to both men and have them send me letters in return consenting to the interviews. But over and over again, Nathaniel and Rayshawn never got my letters or messages. Initially, I thought the problem was on my end. Maybe I'd misspelled something or not put enough postage, but turns out it wasn't. Despite being on both of their phone lists, prepaying for minutes and mailing multiple letters, unexplainable issues persisted for months. One time, Rayshawn's prison issued pin number that allowed him to use the phone banks mysteriously wouldn't allow him to make calls to my numbers. Another time, shortly after firing off a second round of letters, Nathaniel was transferred to a new prison and put on restrictive housing which prevented him from meeting with a journalist. It wasn't until the middle of my interview with their mother Teresa in July of this year that I learned what the problem was. I'm gonna let you grab that just so it doesn't keep going off.
- [21:18]
Nathaniel
You know what? That's actually one of the boys.
- [21:19]
Delia D'Ambra
Oh. If you want to answer it, you can.
- [21:22]
Nathaniel
Hey, baby. How are you?
- [21:23]
Chuck Byram
What's up?
- [21:25]
Nathaniel
I'm. I'm. I'm with the. I'm with Delia. I'm. I'm with her. I'm doing the interview. Say hi, you on the. You on the speaker. Hey.
- [21:38]
Chris Muma
Hey.
- [21:38]
Delia D'Ambra
Who was calling?
- [21:39]
Nathaniel
This is Nathaniel. Stinky.
- [21:40]
Delia D'Ambra
Hey, Nathaniel. How are you?
- [21:42]
Brad Bannon
I'm all right.
- [21:44]
Delia D'Ambra
I'm doing all right. I'm going to have your mom hold up your her phone closer to her mic. That way we can actually pick you up here. But thanks for letting me borrow her for the afternoon. You can borrow anything. Hey, well, while we have you on the phone, I wanted to know if you had received my letter yet. Oh, no, they took that from me. Are you still in restrictive custody or the. You know, where you can't get a lot of privileges?
- [22:18]
Chuck Byram
No, I'm not now, but your letter.
- [22:22]
Delia D'Ambra
Because they said that she was trying.
- [22:24]
Chuck Byram
To escape me from prison.
- [22:27]
Nathaniel
He said that they told him that you was trying to get him out of prison, you was trying to help him escape. So they did not give him the mail. They gave him a slip. And that's how come he could tell me that both your first name and your last name started with a D? Because that was on the slip. But he did not receive that mail because they took it and said that they had to because they thought she was trying to help you escape, right?
- [22:56]
Delia D'Ambra
What?
- [22:57]
Chuck Byram
Yeah, they said she was trying to help me escape.
- [23:00]
Delia D'Ambra
Well, I'm gonna just say on the record now, I was not trying to help you escape prison. Let's make that clear. But you know what? I'm gonna follow up with the Department of Adult Corrections Liaison, North Carolina Correctional Facility. They gave me really clear instructions on what you guys need to do to get, like to give consent for me to come and speak with you. So I'm going to follow up with them and just double down on. Hey, I need to make sure I'm able to get these instructions to Nathaniel and your brother, Rayshawn. I know you're in separate facilities, but I think it would be really ideal for us to connect. And I'll try and go the pathways I need to to make that happen. If you're okay with that. I'm fine with it.
- [23:50]
Nathaniel
But they shouldn't do that.
- [23:52]
Chuck Byram
No way.
- [23:52]
Nathaniel
It's corresponding. Yeah, I'll write them.
- [23:55]
Chuck Byram
I don't have. No problem.
- [23:57]
Delia D'Ambra
The North Carolina Department of Adult Corrections has never confirmed why my communications with the men were lost, interrupted, or prevented. Was interference happening on purpose? Because by me telling this story, it could make more people know about their innocence claims. I'll never know, but I have my suspicions. There's a legal maxim you've probably heard that says justice delayed is justice denied. Whether or not you think that statement is true is a matter of perspective. For example, if you're a family member of a person who was murdered in the 1960s, and after several decades, authorities finally make an arrest, then you probably don't agree with the saying justice delayed is justice denied. Because for you, even though justice took a while, it wasn't denied. However, if you've been wrongfully convicted of a crime, then justice delayed is certainly justice denied. But it's tricky because a lot of times loved ones of murder victims who've decided that justice has been served because someone was quickly arrested and convicted are unable to be open to the possibility that maybe it wasn't. It's just too painful and confusing to think that perhaps the cops and court system got it wrong. In this case, it's clear that Mr. Jones family members feel confident that Rayshawn, Nathaniel, Christopher, Jamal, and Darrell are responsible for his death. That is their truth. In 2023, Mr. Jones grandson Chris Paul, who's an NBA basketball star with a wide reaching public platform, authored a poignant and moving book about his late grandfather titled 61 Life Lessons from On and off the Court. Growing up, Chris was particularly close with his grandfather, to the point where he considered him his best friend. He'd been with Mr. Jones the evening of November 14, the day before the crime. They'd attended a signing event where Chris committed to play basketball for Wake Forest University. And afterwards, the two of them went to see the Demon Deacons play. The celebratory moment and the car ride they shared home was special, and Chris details it in such a way in his book that it really breaks your heart to know that just 24 hours later, his hero would be killed. The number 61 in the memoir's title is representative of how old Mr. Jones was when he died. And the number of points Chris personally scored at a high school basketball game shortly after the murder.
- [26:27]
Michael Hewlett
Everyone saw him score 61 points at that game. And that catapulted him into national spotlight. He ended up being on espn. He ended up being on one of the morning shows. And that has followed him through his college basketball career, through his NBA career. His grandfather was murdered. He scored 61 points in his honor. I mean, that's. I mean, that was an iconic, huge moment when it happened. Everyone, everyone noted it.
- [27:07]
Delia D'Ambra
So it makes total sense why Chris Book would lean heavily on this scene. But what hadn't made as much sense is throughout all the years of litigation, reinvestigation, innocence inquiry hearings, and the three judge panel, Chris, a public figure, had been noticeably silent about the updates in his grandfather's case.
- [27:27]
Michael Hewlett
His family came out and said, no, we believe that these men are guilty. They got the right people. But Chris Paul had not said anything. He was just out there doing his own thing, you know, and then he comes out with this book. So this is a chance to kind of see how Chris Paul looked at all of this. You know, his relationship with his grandfather, how that shaped him, but also how he now looks at this new. This new theme that's now come up in his book.
- [28:05]
Delia D'Ambra
Chris wrote that he watched the entire 2020 Innocence Inquiry Commission hearing online during the pandemic, and he learned new things about his grandfather's case. He also saw Rayshawn, Christopher, Jamal and Nathaniel testify in person. He wrote, quote, they were all so young, like I was at the time. But now grown men aged in a way that only the system can do. He continued later, I often think about jail and prison. I've read books, heard speeches, viewed studies, and watched every single television show you can think of that deals with the idea of jail. Obviously, I think jail is for some really damaged and cruel people. But I keep going back to how old these kids were. 14 and 15 kids. My heart will never believe that sending someone that age away for 50 years is a good idea. It took me a long time to get there, end quote. He wrote that he was frustrated. No one brought up the fact that the defendants had used his grandfather's bank card after the murder and that was how they'd been caught. The truth is, no one brought it up because it's actually not true. Police never found that Mr. Jones card had been used after the crime.
- [29:19]
Brad Bannon
But Chris Paul obviously believes that they used his ATM card, and that belief had to have come from somewhere.
- [29:27]
Delia D'Ambra
He also wrote that the Defendants had beaten his grandfather with metal pipes, which the evidence also doesn't support. But again, this is likely a piece of information that Chris was told at some point and still believes is true.
- [29:41]
Michael Hewlett
That struck me because there's nothing in the record, there's nothing at the trial that indicated that they were beaten, that Jones was beaten by metal pipes.
- [29:50]
Delia D'Ambra
Michael Hewlett got an early release copy of Chris book and noticed these factual errors. So he reached out to the publisher to let them know before the memoir hit store shelves.
- [30:01]
Michael Hewlett
Hey, I read the book, and there are these things. Do you have a response to it? And the only thing that I got back was, well, thank you for bringing this up. We'll look into it and never, you know, and if there's something to change, we'll change it. And then when I got, you know, went to the bookstore and looked at a copy of a book, it was still there.
- [30:23]
Brad Bannon
I cannot imagine what it would be like to think of my loved one's last moments on earth being how Mr. Jones last moments on earth will be. I just. I really can't imagine it. I would be desperate to understand why. I would be desperate to understand what it was. I would be desperate to want to know who did it, and I would be desperate to make sure that those people or that person suffered the appropriate consequences. I would rely fully on the police and the prosecutors to tell me what I needed to know about the investigation. And it's very clear to me that they did that in this case. And it's clear to me that somewhere along the way, they received information about this case that simply wasn't true.
- [31:21]
Delia D'Ambra
In one of the final chapters of 61, Chris concludes, quote, one thing I do know, Papa, my best friend and biggest influence, deserves justice. Not manufactured justice, but the real kind of justice needed to truly give our family some sense of peace. He later continued, we finally feel closure, and that justice was served. End quote. Audio Chuck reached out to Chris manager through our representatives with uta while producing this podcast, because I really wanted to just have a conversation with him on or off the record, but we didn't hear back. He wrote in his book that to him, reporters asking questions about the case in recent years had made his family's pain worse. He suggested that some journalists were like talking heads who thought it was okay to play around with people's trauma just for the sake of getting a headline. But I sincerely want Chris and his entire family to know that's not what I'm about or what I think I've done here. Chris, if you or a member of your team is listening. My offer still stands. Reach out if you feel comfortable. What's kind of wild to me is that over a decade ago, the Wake Forest Innocence and Justice Clinic that Mark Rabel is the director of chose to deny representing the defendants in this case because at the time, Chris Paul appeared to want to get involved in the lives of wrongfully convicted people from his home state. Previously, we had turned down one of the guys, and the reason was, at the time, Daryl Hunt was my client.
- [32:56]
Chris Muma
Of many years who was exonerated in 2004. Darrell had started a project called the Darrell Hunt Project.
- [33:04]
Chuck Byram
It was a reentry or homecoming program.
- [33:07]
Delia D'Ambra
And at the time, he was talking to the Chris Paul Foundation. And I felt like that was a conflict of interest because I worked closely with Daryl and his project. Talk about irony. I don't bring up the discrepancies in Chris book. To pick it apart, there are lots of really beautiful personal stories in there that paint a touching portrait of the life and legacy of Nathaniel Jones. I applaud Chris and his co author for putting it out into the world, but when you have the kind of influence and celebrity that he has, it's important to make sure misinformation doesn't continue to get recite, because at the end of the day, justice is what everyone wants. Attorney Brad Bannon dispatched the same responsibility to me. As the creator of this podcast, you.
- [33:56]
Brad Bannon
Know that this is a powerful thing you're doing, and this, when you put it out into the world, will be the record that many people will see and hear about this case. They're not going to be digging up transcripts or Googling, you know, like court hearings on local TV stations. They're going to be getting your podcast and they're going to be listening to it. And I think that's why I'm very. I'm very impressed with the work that you're doing and the work you've done here. I'm not just saying that. It's not just bullshit. I'm really. I'm really impressed with it, and I'm glad you're focusing on this. I know that if you were able to prove who did this, nothing we've done up to this point or any lawyers done up to this point will have remotely the same impact on the outcome of this case than that will.
- [34:52]
Delia D'Ambra
With the Darrell Hunt and Calvin Michael Smith cases that I mentioned earlier, there was substantial community involvement and investment to see those miscarriages of justice corrected.
- [35:02]
Michael Hewlett
There was a lot of activism that.
- [35:05]
Delia D'Ambra
Came out of that era, particularly black citizens, rose up in protest when the Hunt and Smith cases happened. But there hasn't been the same kind of movements spearheaded for the defendants in this case. There's a working theory as to why.
- [35:21]
Michael Hewlett
I think that has something to do with the fact of who Chris Paul is and who his family is.
- [35:27]
Brad Bannon
You know, I think if you're out here in the community and you know what wonderful people the Paul family are, and you know that the Paul family believe that these five kids did it, and you want to support the Paul family in their ongoing grief, which never ends, then certainly you might be less inclined to question the rightfulness of the conviction of these kids than you otherwise would be. To the extent Chris Paul and his celebrity or his family and their wonderfulness in the community looms over this case, it does so in a way that might naturally make people reluctant to believe or to act on the belief that they think might hurt them or might compound their pain. And I get that and I understand it. And that's why we have courtrooms where those types of things are not supposed to win the day. The evidence is and the law is.
- [36:41]
Delia D'Ambra
Every time I've been to Moravia Street, I've seen flyers with Mr. Jones photo on them, posted the light poles in the neighborhood. They advertise a $25,000 reward for information leading to the identification of the true individual or individuals involved in Mr. Jones death. Chris Muma's center on Actual Innocence put them up and still has an anonymous tip line available for people to call.
- [37:05]
Chris Muma
We want justice for Mr. Jones. He's a victim.
- [37:09]
Delia D'Ambra
Right?
- [37:09]
Chris Muma
But let's get the person who actually did it and make some effort to get the person who actually did it.
- [37:17]
Delia D'Ambra
All of the defendants And Jessica want Mr. Jones loved ones to have the finality they seek. Even as difficult as that may be for the Jones and Paul families to hear coming from them.
- [37:28]
Jessica Black
I don't want to take away from them. I don't, because I feel for them. They deserve justice even after all these years. But these boys, these boys were with me.
- [37:40]
Chuck Byram
I'm sitting up here telling you I did not commit a crime. I'm sitting up here telling you I'm doing time for something that me and my little brothers did not do. It's clear Jessica done rekindling her statement.
- [37:55]
Nathaniel
So what is y'all still holding onto?
- [37:59]
Chuck Byram
I have no personal ill feelings towards them or how they may feel about me. I just wish they know me or my co defendants. And I just hope that they one day come to terms that we didn't do this. If you want the same thing that we want, then help us find out who killed your father. I have no problem helping if that's one thing I can do, because I would want you to have closure.
- [38:27]
Delia D'Ambra
The men's sincerity has been questioned, though, by those who've openly opposed their innocence claims. The main accusation is this. The defendants are not pure of heart and they're only trying to get exonerated so that they can file multimillion dollar lawsuits against the city for their wrongful incarceration. Their responses to those allegations after the break. What are you bringing to the Thanksgiving table this year? A new take on a classic dish, a fun game for the family, or perhaps a new language? As the most trusted language learning program for over 30 years, Rosetta Stone immerses you with an enriching experience. Whether you're traveling to a new country or sitting down at the family table, learning a new language can help enhance connections. I'm going to be brushing up on some of my French during this holiday season because I'm going to be spending a lot of time around my mom and she's been doing the same, so it's something that we can share together. Why French? Well, I learned it a couple of years ago and got pretty proficient with it, but then got away from it. And now I want to start learning more with Rosetta Stone for a short time. Counterclock listeners can get Rosetta Stone's Lifetime Membership Holiday Special. Visit rosettastone.com counterclock for unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your holiday offer today. Rosettastone.com what a year it's been. It feels like a good time to step back and look at your life in this moment and commemorate it with something beautiful, something sparkly even. In all seriousness, if you're thinking of buying jewelry, there's no better place to do it than bluenile.com maybe you're thinking of finally springing for that piece you've always wanted. Or maybe you're just thinking of what everyday piece will make the most impact on your outfits in 2025. If you have questions about what to get, Blue Nile's jewelry experts are on hand 247 via phone or chat. From technical questions to budget suggestions, they're here to make you feel confident about every purchase. Seriously, you can't beat the ease and convenience of shopping, Blue Nile or the selection. Fingers crossed that my husband is not listening to this ad, but I have been on the search for the perfect platinum Men's wedding band that will match mine. And honestly, I could not find it anywhere. But then I looked on bluenile.com and I found it. So don't wait any longer to find your perfect piece. Go to bluenile.com to shop Blue Nile, the original online jeweler since 1999. That's blue nile.com bluenile.com they're only pursuing this because they want to get exonerated and file a, you know, 10, 20, $100 million lawsuit. What would you say to those accusations?
- [41:21]
Chris Muma
Well, I'd say if I'm in prison for something that I didn't do and I'm watching the news reports over and over about people being exonerated and $20 million and $75 million civil suits, is it going to be in my mind that somebody might have to pay for what happened to me? Hell, yeah. That doesn't mean that's what's motivating me.
- [41:42]
Nathaniel
It's about getting their name clear, because these boys went in at 14 and 15 years old. They have still got to come out here and live. They need to live. So I don't care what anybody's talking about. They just want the money. No, this is not about the money. This is about my children's freedom. Now, if it lends them to some money, yes, ma'am. Get them their money.
- [42:04]
Chuck Byram
I want my life back. I want a clean record. I want to be able to walk somewhere without that on my record because I took a punishment that wasn't for me. Money could never, ever, ever. That's like a cushion. But money could Never replace the 14 years and 15 years old I was forced to be. A man put a price on that.
- [42:28]
Delia D'Ambra
It's been seven years since Jamal and Christopher finished serving their sentences. They came home to Southside Winston Salem, the same neighborhood police cars had escorted them out of in 2002 as teenagers. But reintegrating into society wasn't easy.
- [42:44]
Chuck Byram
When I first came home, it was rough. I didn't even have a Social Security card, so I had to run around and find out. I felt like an alien. Like, I was like, I don't even have no identification. I was searching for jobs. Like all the interviews for dead end, though, I never heard nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. So I got tired of that. I was like, man, I don't even want to work for nobody. I feel like everybody going to judge me because of this. I had my first girlfriend when I was 30. You know, I had to learn to drive. It's just stuff like that. I know I missed out on, like, prom and, you know, having a little childhood crush and all that stuff. All that stuff was took away from me, you know, So I had to come home and adjust the best way I know how. I mean, at the end of the day, I know, like, what I done went through, and I know it gotta be a better tunnel than what I already went through. I think it was all in God's plan. The Lord gave us an opportunity to be able to come home and speak our truth and still be able to help the ones that's still in there.
- [43:50]
Delia D'Ambra
You know, Unlike Rayshawn and Nathaniel, Christopher and Jamal have their physical freedom, but in many ways, they will always be shackled to this crime. Why are you still pushing even though you've been released?
- [44:04]
Chuck Byram
Because we didn't do it. There's no way I can just let go. I've walked in stores, and people be like, bless your heart. Like, we know y'all didn't do that. People at my job even know about my case, and they be, like, being around me every day. They be like, man, I know you ain't do it. Like. Cause I ain't got that mindset. I'm not that type of person. Me or my co defendants, like, we ain't. Like, we don't do no stuff like that. We never did. I don't want nobody looking at me like, oh, well, that's the guy that had something to do with Mr. Jones death. Cause we didn't have nothing to do with it at all. I just want the truth. That's it. And it's right. Like, it's right in front of them. Somebody's probably sitting out there laughing about this. Like, I got thinking they got away with something.
- [44:49]
Delia D'Ambra
That's the argument the men and their attorneys plan to present in January at the evidentiary hearing. The Forsyth county judge who will oversee that proceeding holds the power to impact a lot of lives. Even Jessica Black's. What would be your message to this new judge who's going to be reviewing things from here on out? What would you want him to know?
- [45:13]
Jessica Black
Please, please look at everything. From beginning to end.
- [45:20]
Nathaniel
Look at it all.
- [45:21]
Jessica Black
And you need to take in everything that happened, from the fact that they lied, the fact that the detectives lied, and the truth finally come out, and the fact that there was never any evidence, the fact that there is proof that they were elsewhere when the crime was committed. Just please look at all the evidence. Look at everything and understand that we were kids. We were children. You know how easy it is to manipulate children is so easy, especially when they're scared.
- [46:00]
Nathaniel
I want you to pay attention. I want you to listen. Listen to the things that I had to listen to for nine days. And then you will see. You're going to feel the same way. I guarantee you the way that I felt. These are not the guys. People need to know the truth and they need to base their opinions off of the truth, not on what somebody has just told you.
- [46:23]
Delia D'Ambra
There's one final twist that could happen with respect to Rayshawn and Nathaniel's fate. And it's a long shot. But here's Chris Muma to explain.
- [46:31]
Chris Muma
I actually fear a little bit that through this evidentiary hearing process the state will come back to them with offers of time served and in return for a plea. And I worry about after all they've been through with the commission process, the eight member, the three judge, the. The failure of the three judge. Do they will they feel like it's just time to come home to their mom.
- [46:57]
Delia D'Ambra
But that would mean they'd have to admit guilt.
- [46:59]
Chris Muma
They might be able to get an offered plea right where they say, I'm maintaining my innocence, but I understand there's risks and so I'm going to plead guilty.
- [47:08]
Delia D'Ambra
That doesn't clear your name though.
- [47:09]
Chris Muma
That does not clear your name.
- [47:11]
Delia D'Ambra
And that's important to them.
- [47:12]
Chris Muma
It's important to them, but it's really getting to the point where they are so distrusting of the justice system they were distrusting back then. And then it's been proven to be lack of trustworthiness over and over and over again and they're worn down.
- [47:35]
Brad Bannon
I'd do it.
- [47:37]
Delia D'Ambra
You'd take an Alford plea if you were 100%?
- [47:40]
Brad Bannon
If I was them and I was offered an Alford plea today to get out of prison and be done with this, I would do it. You know, it's a no brainer. More importantly, I'd tell my brother to do it.
- [47:54]
Delia D'Ambra
The temptation to go that route if it comes to fruition would be difficult for Rayshawn and Nathaniel to pass up because they have their mother to take into consideration.
- [48:04]
Chuck Byram
Until we come home, she won't have no kind of joy. I try to tell my mama to go out and have fun. Like we okay. You might not think it, but we okay. Even though we in prison, we okay. We make the best of what's going on. So I try to tell her, like, go out, have fun, it's okay. But she feel like just because we in here and she got to worry about us, it's not okay to have Fun or go out. I'm like, no, you still got life to live live. My little brother is like the heart of me, and my mother, like, she is the engine.
- [48:48]
Nathaniel
I feel like I'm gonna die with my children still in prison. I don't think that I will be here, but I know for sure that they didn't do it.
- [49:00]
Delia D'Ambra
You might be surprised to learn that it took many years for Teresa to have peace with that conclusion.
- [49:06]
Nathaniel
I think I stopped asking my sons. I want to say probably 2017. Son, you sure y'all didn't have nothing to do with this? I mean, if you did, please just. I'm still going to be your mom. I'm still going to love you. I'm still going to take care of you. I'm still going to come to see you. I'm going to do all the things, but don't let me go to my grave knowing that y'all did this and y'all are afraid to tell me, no, Mama, we didn't do it. Okay? So I stopped asking.
- [49:46]
Delia D'Ambra
She's always shot it straight with her sons. She doesn't stand for lying, misbehaving, or shenanigans. Never did.
- [49:53]
Chuck Byram
When she got ahold of me, it wasn't nothing nice. I think one time she beat me so bad, I ran away from home.
- [50:03]
Nathaniel
No, he wasn't running away from home. He was running away from a butt whooping is what he ran out the house for.
- [50:10]
Delia D'Ambra
Teresa's tough parenting style is as enduring as her love. Even now.
- [50:15]
Chuck Byram
TT is the worst. That's my baby, though. But she is very hard on me to this day. I'm 37 years old, and she still do not like nothing that I do that she don't approve of. My mom was a hardworking woman, and she made it her point to make sure we was okay in every aspect of everything we did. Like, that's my best friend.
- [50:43]
Delia D'Ambra
When I interviewed Teresa earlier this year, she'd just moved into a new house in Winston Salem. She barely had any furniture, but one corner of her living room was decorated like it had been there for years.
- [50:53]
Nathaniel
I just love these pictures. This is Nathaniel here, and I love this picture. So because it's his hair, and even the way he does it now, I really like it. And I'm not a dread person. I don't like dreads. But the way he keep his. I really love it. And I just thought that was a great picture of him. And this is my man right here. They say my main man. I love all my children just the same. But this is. This is my hero, is my baby boy. Mr. Rayshawn Denard.
- [51:19]
Delia D'Ambra
You just moved in this house. You don't have a lot set up yet, but this corner is really set up. And it's very apparent that you've put a lot of time and attention to this corner. Why?
- [51:29]
Jessica Black
Why?
- [51:29]
Nathaniel
So it was just this corner, right?
- [51:31]
Delia D'Ambra
You notice that?
- [51:33]
Nathaniel
Because I miss my boys. And I told them, I said, I've always wanted a little office, and I always wanted a place where I could put their pictures. And so now I got so hard, sweat and tears went into this little sitting right here. It really did.
- [51:48]
Delia D'Ambra
Teresa may laugh, but sadness is never far behind. It lingers in two empty bedrooms that she's kept reserved for her sons.
- [51:57]
Nathaniel
You know, I had to give them room to roam because they haven't had that in so many years. So that's the reason why I picked this house and I picked this room. They think it told me my TV was.
- [52:07]
Delia D'Ambra
It catches in her voice when she hangs up the phone with one of them.
- [52:10]
Nathaniel
You just call me back and we'll talk about it, okay? I love you too, son.
- [52:17]
Delia D'Ambra
And it bathes her memories of better times before everything in her life changed.
- [52:23]
Nathaniel
I wasn't a drunkard mom. I wasn't a partying mom. I didn't smoke dope. I worked and I took care of my children. That's the kind of mother I was. I tore they tail up when I needed to. I went to every football game, every basketball game, anything they had going on, I was there. When this happened to my sons, they took my whole life away. The only reason why I'm here is for them. That's it. We done everything together. If you talking about a cool mom, I was a cool mom. I danced with my boys, I played with my boys. I was at games. I was at the rec centers every single day. So when this happened to my sons, they destroyed my whole life.
- [53:11]
Delia D'Ambra
If there's one thing Rayshawn and all of the defendants in this case could go back and do differently, it's this.
- [53:18]
Chuck Byram
Take your lawyer, your parents. I'm telling you, don't go in there by yourself. Don't go in there by yourself. Probably now, I would have never gave a statement. Never. That's one thing I. Probably one of my biggest regrets. I robbed myself of my childhood. Even though it was wrong, I robbed myself.
- [53:45]
Delia D'Ambra
One of the reasons we decided to put this season out earlier than planned was because there's going to be that evidentiary hearing in January. This investigation is currently unfolding in real time and I'm more convinced than ever that there are people in Winston Salem who know information related to Mr. Jones in this case but have not come forward. For example, a source told me that they spoke to a teenage boy in 2002 days after the crime and right after all five defendants were arrested and this boy said he had Mr. Jones wallet. I'm still trying to confirm the identity of that teenager, but my source told me they reported this individual to Winston Salem police because they knew that Mr. Jones wallet was the one thing that had never been found. But nowhere in the case file did authorities document receiving this information and following up to determine who that young man was. If you're out there listening and there's something you told police back in 2002 that you did not hear covered in these episodes and think is important information, please email counterclockaudiochuck.com this story was an extremely comprehensive case to investigate and I'm truly grateful you all tuned in like we always do. Executive Producer Ashley Flowers and I will be putting out a Q and A episode in a few months after my update about the evidentiary hearing. So go ahead and make a list of all your burning questions and be ready to send those into the show. Email Address Counterclock is an Audio Chuck production. The series is researched and reported by me, Delia D'Ambra so what do you think Chuck? Do you approve? Netcredit is here to say yes to a personal loan or line of credit when other lenders say no, apply in minutes and get a decision as as soon as the same day. If approved. Applications are typically funded the next business day or sooner. Loans offered by Netcredit or lending partner banks and serviced by Netcredit applications subject to review and approval. Learn more@netcredit.com partner netcredit credit to the people. Your life will be full of change and the Mod Max Modular Sectional from the Ashley Store is designed to change right along with it. Maybe you change homes or grow your family or you're ready to build the home theater of your dreams. You can configure the Mod Max to fit spaces of any size with add ons like ottomans, storage units, audio consoles and reclining chairs. And Mod Max's durable machine washable cushion covers made from Next gen Nuvella performance fabric means that you'll never sweat the spilled stuff. Modmax from the Ashley store shop in store or@ashley.com.