Ep 3 of 11: Juveniles

Summary

CounterClock Episode 3: Juveniles
Hosted by audiochuck
Release Date: November 15, 2024

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Introduction: Revisiting a Decade-Old Mystery

In Episode 3 of CounterClock, investigative journalist Delia D'Ambra delves into the perplexing case of Mr. Jones, a decades-old homicide that has long remained unsolved. This episode, titled "Juveniles," explores the involvement of five teenagers in Mr. Jones's murder and examines the complexities surrounding their interrogations and confessions.

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The Unfolding Investigation

Initial Leads and Unexpected Sources

The investigation into Mr. Jones's murder had stalled four days in without a prime suspect. A breakthrough came when Arlene Tolliver, a mother from Southside Winston Salem, contacted the police about her 15-year-old son, Jamal Toliver.

[02:20] Chuck Byram: "I got a phone call from a mother who said that her son wasn't acting right as a result."

Detaining Jamal Toliver

Jamal, residing just six blocks from Mr. Jones's residence, was apprehended by detectives and taken downtown for questioning. Upon arrival, Jamal found himself in an interrogation room facing unfamiliar homicide detectives.

[03:21] Chuck Byram: "Everything happened so fast. All I remember is being questioned."

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Interrogations and Emerging Suspicions

Family Insights

Interviewing Jamal's siblings revealed signs of his unusual behavior in the days leading up to the murder. Yolanda and Thayers Toliver provided critical observations, prompting detectives to suspect Jamal and his friend group.

[04:00] Narrator: Yolanda noted Jamal's altered behavior over the weekend, while Thayers suggested Jamal might possess knowledge about the murder due to his early bedtime on Friday night.

Expanding the Suspect List

Detectives identified Jamal's friends—Darrell Brayboy, Christopher Bryant, Nathaniel Cawthon, and Nathaniel's younger brother, Rayshawn Banner—as potential suspects. Subsequent arrests were made, except for Darrell, who was temporarily unavailable due to his mother's surgery.

[04:40] Chuck Byram: "They saw me, but when they saw my little brother, they beelined straight to him."

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Policing Tactics and Controversial Interrogations

Rayshawn Banner's Detention

Rayshawn, the youngest at 14, faced aggressive questioning without a warrant, leading to a tense standoff at his home. Despite his resistance, Rayshawn was eventually arrested after a heated confrontation.

[17:28] Chuck Byram: "So my mom was like, nah, you need to go. I'm not trusting them... I threw my hands off."

Discrepancies in Police Reports

A critical point of contention emerged regarding the initial call from Arlene Tolliver. While Chuck Byram claims to have taken the call, police reports attribute it to Detective David Rose, who documented Arlene expressing concerns about Jamal's potential involvement.

[22:58] Narrator: "In police reports, a detective named David Rose claimed he talked on the phone with her... Chuck Byram told me he was the one who spoke with her, not David Rose."

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Jessica Black's Involvement

Jessica Black's Testimony

Jessica Black, a 16-year-old white girl who frequented the Southside area despite her grandmother's disapproval, became a pivotal figure in the case. She provided a confession detailing the group's intent and actions on the night of the murder.

[13:48] Chuck Byram: "Wanting to be funny, you know, if we jacked somebody and took that money... they were laughing about jacking."

Contradictions and Altered Statements

Initially denying any involvement, Jessica's demeanor shifted after hours of intense interrogation, leading her to implicate her friends in Mr. Jones's murder.

[34:02] Jessica Black: "At first, I didn't know what they were going to do... I knew what they had done."

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Pressure and Coercion: The Juveniles' Confessions

Jamal Toliver's Interrogation

Jamal endured prolonged questioning without a recorded account of his initial denials. Detectives employed aggressive tactics, including threats of severe punishment, to elicit a confession.

[27:16] Chuck Byram: "They kept threatening me with lethal injection. I didn't know someone my age could get the death penalty."

Nathaniel Cawthon's Stance

Nathaniel consistently maintained his innocence, even as police intensified their interrogation methods. His mother, Teresa Banner, was present during part of his questioning, witnessing his emotional distress.

[28:24] Nathaniel Cawthon: "I ain't killed no fucking body. I ain't had nothing to do with nobody being killed."

Christopher Bryant and Darrell Brayboy's Admissions

Both Christopher and Darrell confessed to roles in the assault and attempted robbery, aligning their statements with Jessica's testimony.

[32:05] Chuck Byram: "I wasn't there. I don't know what you want me to do. I wasn't there."

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Community Reaction and Skepticism

Shock from the Community

The revelation that young teenagers were implicated in the murder shocked the local community, including Calvin Scriven, a high school basketball star, who expressed disbelief.

[35:09] Chuck Byram: "It surprised me a lot. They were so young."

Questions About the Investigation's Integrity

Discrepancies in police reports and the lack of recorded initial interactions raised concerns about the validity of the confessions and the overall investigation process.

[24:20] Narrator: "Whether Arlene said anything Detective Rose claims she did has been hotly debated for years."

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Concluding Thoughts and Ongoing Questions

Incomplete Narratives

Despite the teens’ confessions, lingering questions about the interrogation methods, absence of recorded denials, and conflicting reports obscure the true circumstances leading to the confessions.

Teasing the Next Episode

The episode concludes by highlighting the upcoming court proceedings and the continued mystery surrounding Jessica Black's role.

[35:41] Chuck Byram: "Jessica should have been in prison as well, but she was pulled away and made the star witness."

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Final Reflections

Episode 3 of CounterClock sheds light on a controversial case involving juvenile suspects in a violent murder. Through Delia D'Ambra's investigative lens, listeners are invited to question the methods used by law enforcement and the reliability of the confessions obtained from these young individuals. As the story progresses, the episode sets the stage for deeper exploration into the legal battles and the quest for justice in subsequent episodes.

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Stay tuned for Episode 4: "Jessica" as Delia continues to unravel the complexities of the Mr. Jones case.

Transcript

[Narrator]

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[Chuck Byram]

I got a phone call from a mother who said that her son wasn't acting right as a result. Not as a result, but ever since Mr. Jones had passed away and she doesn't think he's involved in but she wanted a police officer to talk to him.

[Narrator]

Her son was 15 year old Jamal Toliver, a local boy who lived on Devonshire Street. About six blocks away from Mr. Jones house around 2:45pm that Tuesday, two detectives scooped him up from his front porch and drove him downtown alone.

[Chuck Byram]

They didn't tell me anything until like, I was almost there. Like they didn't tell me. Then they asked me, like, what do you know about Mr. Jones? And Reverend like that. I'm like, what you talking about? The old man that died around the corner? Nothing. Nothing.

[Narrator]

He was put in an interrogation room, and across the table from him stood a row of homicide detectives he'd never seen before in his life.

[Chuck Byram]

Everything happened so fast. All I remember is being questioned.

[Narrator]

According to police reports, when investigators interviewed Jamal's older siblings, Yolanda and Thayers Toliver, Yolanda said Jamal had been acting differently over the weekend. And Thayers told police that Jamal might know something about the murder, too. When asked why he thought this, Thayers said that Jamal had gone to bed early on Friday night, which was uncommon for him. So that must admit something was up, right? Police records indicate that after several hours of interviewing Jamal, he began to give them pieces of information the investigators felt incriminated him and a group of his friends that he hung out with on a regular basis. They were Darrell Brayboy, Christopher Bryant and Nathaniel Cawthon, who were all 15 at the time, and Nathaniel's 14 year old brother, Rayshawn Banner. Around 4:45pm detectives went back to Southside to locate the other four boys when a unit pulled up to Christopher's house, right across from where Jamal lived on Devonshire Street. Everyone in the friend group was there except Darrell. He was with his mom, who just had surgery at a local hospital. When police parked in Christopher's front yard, they went straight to Rayshawn first.

[Chuck Byram]

I see two cars pull up, I automatically jump out of the car like, you're Nathaniel Carlson. We need you to come with us. I'm like, yo, that ain't even my name. And then as soon as I said that, my brother and Chris walked out the house. The detectives went straight to my little brother. They seen me, but when they seen my little brother, they beeline straight to him. And they was being more aggressive with my little brother than they would have been aggressive with me. So that was like, yo, hold on, man, what's going on? At the time, my brother was Gary. I'm like, yo, don't go like you tripping. So I gets on the phone, I gets on the cell phone, I call my mom.

[Narrator]

Here's Rayshawn and Nathaniel's mother, Teresa Banner.

[Chuck Byram]

Rayshawn said, mama, the police is out here asking us questions about Mr. Jones murder. And we didn't I told them I wasn't going anywhere because I knew my rights. Nathaniel, on the other hand, say he was going because he hadn't did nothing. So he was going on 15 years old. I'm thinking I'm bigger than life. Yo, what are you talking about? I ain't got nothing to do with no murder. Ain't got nothing to do with that. Yo, you need to talk to me? Yeah, you can talk to me. And then once I got in that car and they took me down there, I don't remember nothing but seeing a.

[Narrator]

Whole bunch of officers because Rayshawn had stood his ground and chosen not to go willingly. The cops couldn't do much because they didn't have warrants and none of the boys were technically under arrest.

[Chuck Byram]

They let Rayshawn walk down the street, though. They let him go. They let him walk down the street.

[Narrator]

That's Christopher Bryant, the other boy who was there when the cops pulled up.

[Chuck Byram]

They were like, you Christopher Bryant? I was like, yeah. And he was like, come here for a minute. So I go over there, sit on the front porch. He was like, oh, yeah, we gotta take you down to the public safety center.

[Narrator]

Even though Christopher saw Rayshawn walk away, he wasn't under the impression that was an option for him. So, like Nathaniel, he went willingly with police within minutes of picking them up. Detectives also got ahold of Durrell and took him downtown too. That evening, Rayshawn noticed how eerily quiet the south side streets were without his friends.

[Chuck Byram]

I ain't seen nobody else for the rest of the day, like nobody. Hours went by, 1 hour, 2 hour. Rayson would call me just about every hour or so and say, ma, Stinky still ain't back yet. I said, he still ain't back yet. He said, no and said. I said, okay. I said, I'm gonna give it a minute. I did not think it was that serious at that particular time.

[Narrator]

By 6:40pm Teresa's mild concern had turned into nagging worry.

[Chuck Byram]

Rayshawn called me again. He said, mama, Stinky still ain't back yet, okay? At this time, it started to getting dark, you know. So now it starts to get a little. A little funny feeling.

[Narrator]

Stinky is Nathaniel's nickname, which is why you may hear Rayshawn and Theresa refer to him by that from time to time. That funny feeling sunk deeper and deeper into her gut. When she clocked out of work, she headed straight to the police department to find out what was going on with Nathaniel.

[Chuck Byram]

I would say it was more closer to 6:45 7 before I got down to the police station. So I went home and made sure that Ra'Shawn was okay, and then I went on down to the police station. When I walked into that building, a black detective, I think his name is Chuck Bynum Byrom or something like that, he said, do you. Did you hear anything about the murder of Nathaniel Jones? I said, yeah. I said, I seen it on the news. And he said, well, your sons is dead smack in the middle. And I said, excuse me? He said, your sons are dead smack in the middle.

[Narrator]

That statement threw Teresa's world off its axis.

[Chuck Byram]

I couldn't wrap my brains around that. I really couldn't. I didn't know what to think. I didn't even know where to start thinking.

[Narrator]

Nathaniel had already been with police for a few hours and undergone several rounds of questioning from different detectives, including Chuck Byram, which was a strategic move by police. Do you think that at any point your colleagues thought, your white colleagues thought there would be any ability for you to have any more success with these defendants, being that you were a black officer?

[Chuck Byram]

Yes, I communicated with him in a vernacular and in a method that the white officers weren't.

[Narrator]

Were there any other black officers like yourself that were involved in these interviews or ability to maybe try and speak to these boys, you know, in a different way, or was it just you?

[Chuck Byram]

Best of my recollection, I was the only one.

[Narrator]

When Teresa got to the station, police even brought her into Nathaniel's interview for a brief period of time. She begged her son, if he was involved, to tell them what he knew.

[Chuck Byram]

If you did it, you say you did it and you stand up and you suffer the consequences behind it. Don't you? Tell no lies.

[Narrator]

In other rooms at the police department, Jamal Toliver, Christopher Bryant and Darrell Brayboy were in the same situation as Nathaniel. And police were using the classic prisoner's dilemma scenario. Essentially, the premise is that you isolate each person you suspect is involved in a crime. If certain information is said to one and not the other, it's only a matter of time before someone cracks. The question is, who will cave first to save himself? In situations like this, police are allowed to lie to subjects, even when those subjects our kids.

[Chuck Byram]

We're going from room to room and there are other officers listening through one way mirror and taking notes. At the time, I think we were getting messages on our pagers about what questions to ask and what somebody else was saying in another room.

[Narrator]

As Chuck Byram and his colleagues employed this tactic, there was a name that came up in every interview. Jessica Black 16 year old Jessica was a white girl from across town who'd sneaked over to Devonshire street on the evening of November 15th so she could hang out with the boys and drive them around in her car. I say sneaked because Jessica's grandmother, who she lived with, didn't like her hanging out in Southside, but she did anyway.

[Chuck Byram]

My family's from Southside and they know how it had gotten to where there was a lot more crime over there than what there used to be. But I was 16. I didn't care. I wanted to go and I'd lie about where I was going until I was going to see somebody else and I'd go see them and I'd hang out until my curfew. My curfew was usually I had to be on about 9930 most time we rode around. We might have smoked a little weed.

[Narrator]

Investigators knew it was important to speak with Jessica, so around 7pm her grandfather dropped her off at the police station. By 9:30pm homicide detectives turned on a recorder for the first time all day. They needed to nail down each of the teenager's individual accounts once and for all. And they started with Jessica. Netcredit is here to say yes to a personal loan or line of credit when other lenders say no, apply in minutes and get a decision as soon as the same day. If approved, applications are typically funded the next business day or sooner. Loans offered by Netcredit or lending partner banks and serviced by Netcredit Applications subject to review and approval. Learn [e-mail] partner netcredit credit to the people. Your life will be full of change and the Mod Max Modular Sectional from the Ashley store is designed to change right along with it. Maybe you change homes or grow your family or you're ready to build the home theater of your dreams. You can configure the Mod Max to fit spaces of any size with add ons like ottomans, storage units, audio consoles and reclining chairs. And Mod Max's durable machine washable cushion covers made from next gen Nuvella performance fabric means that you'll never sweat the spilled stuff. Modmax from the Ashley Store Shop in store [e-mail].

[Chuck Byram]

This is recorded interview with Jessica Joanna Black.

[Narrator]

The clips you're going to hear are the portions of her half hour confession that are the best quality. They've been lightly edited for clarity and context. She said that in the late afternoon on Friday, November 15, she'd picked up all the boys from Christopher's house on Devonshire street and drove around with them for a while, smoking weed and listening to music. At one point, she thought she overheard them talking about doing a robbery. They were sitting there joking around about.

[Chuck Byram]

Wanting to be funny, you know, if we jacked somebody and took that money. So they were laughing about jacking somebody up? Yeah, they were just jacking. I mean, did they name anybody that wasn't jacked up? No, sir.

[Narrator]

She told police that while they were driving, the group stopped at a local Dollar General store, and Christopher and Durrell went inside and bought tape. After that, she drove the group to Bellevue park on Moravia street, and they all hung out at a picnic table. Then all of a sudden, when her back was turned, the boys bolted off in the direction of some nearby houses.

[Chuck Byram]

And then I hear them yelling and screaming at somebody. Then I hear a bunch of banging. What were they yelling and screaming like? They were yelling and screaming, you know, they was like, get the fuck down. Get the fuck down. Give us that shit. Give us that shit. You know, fuck you. Based on the conversation that John had in the car and what you had heard, and based on what they were saying, and based on what was going on at the park, what were they going to do? I'm gonna say they were going to rob somebody. Did you know what they were going to do? At first, I didn't know what they were going to do, but then when I heard the yelling in the band, I knew what they had done. And did you tell them to stop?

[Narrator]

I didn't even go over there.

[Chuck Byram]

I just stayed in my spot.

[Narrator]

And then when they come back over.

[Chuck Byram]

There, I was ready to get out of there.

[Narrator]

Jessica claimed that after the boys came running back to the park, they jumped into her car and they all left. She told detectives that her friends then asked to go to their respective homes so they could change their clothes. She didn't think anything of it. A little while later, she met up with them again, and they went to a local bowling alley on their way home. From there, they noticed a ton of police along Moravia Street. And that's when she put two and two together. She believed they'd hurt someone. With Jessica's statement in hand, police went into Durrell, Nathaniel, Jamal, and Christopher's interrogation rooms to confront them. The audio recordings of their statements are not the best quality, but from listening to them and reading the transcripts, a few things are clear. Darrell ended up confessing to being a lookout and said he overheard his friends beating on Mr. Jones for five to 10 minutes. But he vehemently denied bringing or using tape to Bind the victim. Christopher confessed to being a lookout, too. He said he saw Rayshawn, Darrell, and Nathaniel go into Mr. Jones carport and knock on the door. When Mr. Jones came out, Christopher said Rayshawn threw a right punch and clocked him. Then Darrell taped him up. Jamal also claimed to be a lookout and said he'd overheard his friends punching and kicking Mr. Jones. When asked if the group stole Mr. Jones wallet, he said they had, but they later tossed it out a city bus window. Nathaniel ended up confessing, too. He said he'd gone up to Mr. Jones home and been part of the assault. When police asked who the first person was who hit Mr. Jones in the face, he said it was his younger brother, Rayshawn. None of the teen's taped confessions, including Jessica's, lasted very long. Some were just shy of half an hour. Others were less than 15 minutes. So blips really compared to the total amount of time they'd spent with investigators throughout Tuesday afternoon. The last member of the group authorities needed was Rayshawn. He was the only one of the teens who was not within the four walls of the police department at that time. So close to midnight, as Tuesday was turning into Wednesday, a handful of investigators, including Chuck Byram, showed up at Theresa Banner's front door.

[Chuck Byram]

It was about four of them, I think.

[Narrator]

Rayshawn was asleep on the couch.

[Chuck Byram]

They asked him to get up, and he said, I'm not getting up. I'm not going nowhere. Rashawn got really, really angry. He says, so y'all here to arrest me now for something that we didn't even do? He was mad. He was angry, cussing, fussing. And we had advised him that. The best I can recall is that, you know, you're gonna come with us. It was like, well, we need you. I ain't going nowhere. I'm just telling you, like, I ain't going nowhere. So my mom was like, nah, you need to go. I'm like, I'm not going outnumbered with these many people now. I'm not trusting them. They have guns. What are we gonna do? And so I said, rayshawn, just get up and go. He said, so they say, well, can you turn around so they can put the handcuffs on? When it really registered what I was looking at, I got up immediately with my hands still in my coat. And then next thing you know, I threw my hands off. He made some sort of furtive move toward, I believe, Lieutenant Weevil. That's when things looked like he was about to go south.

[Narrator]

The moment Rayshawn, who Happened to look much older than his 14 years. Took his hands out of his coat. The detectives trying to get him downtown perceived him as a threat. So some of them drew their guns. But ultimately the situation de escalated and.

[Chuck Byram]

They we placed him under arrest. They end up cuffing me in the house and taking me downstairs. When I got outside, I seen so many officers coming from the backyard. The neighbors where the fence was at, like, yo, like, what's really going on? Like, you tell us. I'm like, man, I don't know what you talking about, man. He said, so y'all going to arrest me in front of my mom for something that we didn't even do? Y'all been after us forever and a day. He say, we ain't do this. And he was loud. So I said, ra'shawn, please just stop. Just go. I said, I'm going to follow to make sure that they didn't take him off somewhere and beat him. So I followed along.

[Narrator]

For the second time that day, Teresa watched one of her sons disappear into the depths of the Winston Salem Police Department. What she didn't know then is she would never see them come back out.

[Chuck Byram]

I couldn't go into the rooms with them. I couldn't even go back into the building. Only thing I can remember, the last thing I did was I fell to my knees. I fell to my knees. I fell to my knees and I just begged, God, please don't let this be true. Please don't let this be true.

[Narrator]

Detectives took a slightly different approach in Rayshawn's interrogation than they'd taken with the other teens. They leaned on a pressure point they felt confident would cut to the core of the seemingly defiant 14 year old.

[Chuck Byram]

It got real quiet. Everybody left. So I'm in there by myself, and then that's when Lieutenant Weaver comes in with a tape recorder and plays my brother, saying, I hit Mr. Jones first. It was awkward for me to hear. I'd rather hear somebody else say it than my brother said. But I understand why he said it and why he did it. I knew he was lying. I knew he wanted to get out of trouble. And my mind is registering like, okay, my brother lied. I know that for a fact. Like, my brother lied.

[Narrator]

Nathaniel does say his confession was a lie. In fact, so does Jamal and Christopher and Darrell, even Jessica. Because what you don't hear in any of their brief recorded statements, what we have no detailed account of because police chose not to record a detailed account, is what happened in the many hours leading up to detectives turning on any recording devices. And even when you go back to where this lead all started, the documentation and the truth of how police got to these five young men might not be as clear cut as investigators wrote in their reports. Netcredit is here to say yes to a personal loan or line of credit when other lenders say no. Apply in minutes and get a decision as soon as the same day. Loans offered by NetCredit or lending partner banks and serviced by NetCredit applications subject to review and approval. Learn more at netcredit.com partner NetCredit credit to the people. Your life will be full of changes and the Mod Max Modular Sectional from the Ashley Store is designed to change right along with it. Maybe you change homes or grow your family or you're ready to build the home theater of your dreams. You can configure the Mod Max to fit spaces of any size with add ons like ottomans, storage units, audio consoles and reclining chairs. And Mod Max's durable machine washable cushion covers made from next gen Nuvella performance fabric means that you'll never sweat the spilled stuff. Mod Max from the Ashley Store Shop in store [e-mail] if you recall Chuck Byrom said he took that call from Jamal's mother Arlene.

[Chuck Byram]

I got a phone call from a mother who said that her son wasn't acting right as a result.

[Narrator]

Not as a result, but here's the wild thing. Documentation by Winston Salem Police Department states that a completely different detective spoke to Arlene. In police reports, a detective named David Rose claimed he talked on the phone with her and according to his notes, she told him that after the Evening of Friday, November 15, her son Jamal had stopped hanging out with his friends and he seemed withdrawn. Detective Rose wrote down that Arlene seemed to be suggesting that Jamal's behavior might mean he had information related to Mr. Mr. Jones murder. Detective Rose even went as far as writing down that Arlene told him, quote, I don't know if he was there or not, but I think he knows something about it, end quote. However, that is not what Chuck Byram told me. So I asked about this discrepancy and whether it was him or Detective Rose who actually spoke with Arlene. And he told me he was coming off an overnight shift when he took Arlene's call. And he swears he was the one who spoke with her, not David Rose.

[Chuck Byram]

I informed the mother that I would refer the case or I would refer her information to the day shift officers and the homicide officers would come in and take over the case. I would gather whatever information I could get from her. And whatever notes I took, I would give to the day shift homicide unit, and that's what I did.

[Narrator]

So it sounds like Chuck took the call, wrote up some notes, and then passed those notes along to David Rose, who then either spoke with Arlene again or made it sound like in his report that he was the one who first talked with her. I don't know. It's hard to decipher from the case file, and I think that's because David Rose waited seven months before he ever formally wrote a report about his alleged conversation with Arlene. Clock that again, seven months. Oh, and Chuck, well, he never wrote a report. David Rose also didn't return my request for comment, so there's that. But this is actually a really important point, because whether Arlene said anything Detective Rose claims she did has been hotly debated for years. If you ask her, she says the only reason she called police on November 19 was to learn more about the old guy who'd been killed a few streets away from where she and her kids lived. If you ask police, they'll tell you she called to inform them that her son was acting strange and he and his friends might have known about or been involved in a murder. Two vastly different perspectives. And because police's conversation with Arlene wasn't recorded or transcribed verbatim back in 2002, and the only reports produced about it came months after the fact, it's hard to decipher what the truth is. And the truth of what those kids told police is even harder to get after. Sure, we have six recorded statements from Jessica, Nathaniel, Rayshawn, Jamal, Christopher, and Darrell, all implicating the boys in Mr. Jones murder. But how police got to those confessions is arguably just as important as the confessions themselves. Take Jamal, for example. When he was first brought in, he was adamant. Yes, he'd been hanging out with his friends Christopher, Durrell, Rayshawn and Nathaniel on the evening of Friday, November 15, but they were not involved in a murder. But every time he denied involvement, the cops pushed back. Using that prisoner's dilemma scenario, they start.

[Chuck Byram]

Coming to my friends. It's like, your friend's this, your friend's that. I'm like, you lying when I said something like that. They didn't like, yeah. Then they be like, oh, they'll leave out, then send another one in and leave out and send another one in. No matter what I said, they just wanted me to implicate me and my friends.

[Narrator]

The rotation of detectives interrogating him could have recorded all their questioning, which Would have captured the many times Jamal denied being involved, but they chose not to. They could have also made sure he had a guardian or parent present, but they didn't. North Carolina law at the time didn't require that for minors. It does now. As the minutes and hours ticked by, Jamal's resolve began to wane. Authorities continued to try and compel him to start cooperating. One tactic they used was repeatedly threatening him with lethal injection, A punishment no juvenile in North Carolina could actually receive. But 15 year old Jamal didn't know.

[Chuck Byram]

That I'm gonna get the death penalty. He made it believable to me. I didn't have nobody telling me, like, request a lawyer or have somebody with you or I would. That ain't the background. Like my mom. Nobody didn't teach me that.

[Narrator]

Because police didn't record their interactions with Jamal for the better part of upwards of seven hours. No one except the people who were in his interrogation room in 2002 can know for sure. The play by play of what exactly went down. The same thing was happening in Nathaniel's interrogation room.

[Chuck Byram]

Every so 15 minutes they'll pop in, pop back out. It was very confusing. It was very confusing. The things that they was saying to me, the things that was going in my brain when they was talking to me as a kid, 15 years old, man, when you hear something like that, the death penalty, you are never going home. Your brain is like, hey, you tripping. This ain't right. You can't say that to me. But then when you in that, when you in the isolated area for so long and you can't, like, I just couldn't. I never thought that I could just get up and walk out.

[Narrator]

But no matter how much pressure police applied or what kind of approach they took, Nathaniel wouldn't break. He maintained his innocence over and over again.

[Chuck Byram]

His attitude was that he didn't have anything to do with it. He doesn't know how his name came to be mixed up.

[Narrator]

Just like with Jamal. None of Nathaniel's denials were recorded on tape. But at least in Nathaniel's case, there was one other person who for a brief moment, witnessed what happened in that room. His mom, the most authoritarian figure in his life at the time.

[Chuck Byram]

She sat in on an interview and she basically told him to tell them what you know. When she came in there, I was in a state of mind, like, yo, I don't know what to do. I can see it as clear as it is today, you know, he had white pus in his eyes because it was in the wintertime face was looking sort of kind of ashy. He had been crying. And I said, what's, son? What's going on? And he said, they trying to say that I had something to do with Mr. Jones murder. And he say, I'm telling them that I didn't. I say, son, do you know anything about this murder? And he say, no, Mama. I done told them. And this is. Right now we're into. I'm gonna say every bit of three hours. And I say, son, if you know anything, please tell these people so you can go home. I want you to tell me. And it's not about no snitching on nobody. If you have anything to do with this. I say, please tell them what you know. And he said, I ain't killed no fucking body. When I told my mama I ain't killed nobody. I ain't had nothing to do with nobody being killed. It was like she didn't know what to do. They both were crying. They both wind up crying. And, yeah, it was argumentative between the two of them. I got so mad that me and my mama got into an argument in there. They was actually using my mama to get me to say what they wanted to say or do what they needed to do. I said, have a seat. Cause he jumped up and he was upset. And I realized all of that. But at the same token, I'm gonna keep a level head.

[Narrator]

Theresa sat in for a little while longer, but Nathaniel kept saying the same thing. He didn't have anything to do with Mr. Jones murder, period. Full stop. Detectives eventually grew frustrated and sent her home.

[Chuck Byram]

I don't want to say her services were no longer needed, but it was kind of like there was no more meaningful communication going on at that time. So we let her leave. I mean, we didn't let her leave, but she was kind of like, it'd probably be better if you just leave at this point.

[Narrator]

Were they aware that Nathaniel was not under arrest at that time, and she could have taken him home if she wanted to? Like, was that ever told to her?

[Chuck Byram]

Not that I recall. I don't recall that conversation either. Coming up, they escort me out the room. After I sat there for a minute. They still had Nathaniel in that room. I sat at a cubicle, and he told me to go in and tell my son I love him and goodbye. That's what I done. Did not know that I can say, are you charging him? If not, let him go. Had I done that, I'd have got my son and went home. But I did what I was Told to do. And I left my son there. I ain't got my mama. My mama ain't in there. I ain't got no lawyer. I ain't got nobody in there.

[Narrator]

Christopher Bryant says he felt completely cornered in his interrogation, too.

[Chuck Byram]

For several hours, I told these people like, I wasn't there. Like I don't know what you want me to do. I wasn't there. And then once it went from there, it went, okay, we got this man on the phone right now asking what arm you want the death penalty in. So now I'm scared. Cause I don't know what a death penalty is. All I know is this death. You talking about death. I was just tired. After several hours of being there. I keep telling them the same thing. Then they keep moving me from room to room. And then one of them sitting on the table, one of them kneeling in front of me and just doing all that. I'm just ready to go home. I just wanted to go home. Cause it's like you telling them that you ain't do it, but the only way they gonna let you go is if you tell them you did it.

[Narrator]

Even Jessica Black, the one who gave police their first confession, said she didn't come into the station at 7pm that night with a story about the boys being involved. Like her friends, she'd initially denied any involvement in what had happened to Mr. Jones.

[Chuck Byram]

I remember one. One officer coming or one detective coming in there, and he was. He was really nice and. But then there was other detectives coming there, and they were so hateful and ugly. And the one one was in my face screaming. And I mean, he was spitting while he was screaming. It was just. I was so scared, I didn't know what to do.

[Narrator]

She says as the tension grew, so did police's aggression.

[Chuck Byram]

It was pretty much like, you're not getting out of here until you say what I need you to say. They screamed and yelled. Didn't even offer for parents to be in the room. Nothing. I had never even been in trouble. I didn't even know then that we could leave. Like, I didn't know none of that.

[Narrator]

Two and a half hours later, once the tape was rolling, Jessica's tune changed and she told investigators a whole new version of events.

[Chuck Byram]

Did you know what they were going to do? At first, I didn't know what they were going to do. But then when I heard the yelling in the band, I knew what they had done.

[Narrator]

So was it true? Had police gotten to the bottom of this using tried and true interview tactics? Or were These children coerced into confessions. A Forsyth county judge and jurors would have to decide. Five juveniles now face first degree murder charges for tying up, robbing and killing Jones, taking only his wallet and leaving his body in this carport. Jamal Toliver, Darrell Brayboy, Rayshawn Banner, Nathaniel Cawthon and Christopher Bryant were arrested for the murder of Mr. Jones on November 20, 2002. And prosecutors began to push their narrative of the crime to the media. A spur of the moment robbery by troubled teens who'd picked a victim they felt they could easily overpower. Chris Paul, the local high school basketball star was among the first people to publicly react to the news that boys his age were accused of killing his grandfather.

[Chuck Byram]

14 to 15. I'm thinking, you know, I'm 17. I couldn't imagine killing somebody.

[Narrator]

Calvin Scriven, one of the men who found Mr. Jones, was also shocked when he learned the ages of the accused.

[Chuck Byram]

It surprised me a lot. I mean, it surprised me real lot, really. I didn't know the kids like that. You know, some people around here, they knew them, but I didn't know them kids. They stayed on up a few more blocks on us. I ain't never seen them at the park.

[Narrator]

Was it hard for you to believe?

[Chuck Byram]

Yeah.

[Narrator]

Why so?

[Chuck Byram]

Because, I mean, really, because they were so young.

[Narrator]

But it wasn't only the age of the defendants that surprised Calvin and others watching the story unfold. It was the fact that one person in the friend group had managed to avoid arrest.

[Chuck Byram]

When Jessica got on the stand, it just. I just said, forget it. She should have been in prison as well, but she was pulled away and made the star witness.

[Narrator]

We're headed to court in the next episode of Counterclock. Episode four. Jessica, listen. Right now, Netcredit is here to say yes, because you're more than a credit score. Apply in minutes and get a decision.

[Chuck Byram]

As soon as the same day.

[Narrator]

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