Ep 8 of 11: Journey

Summary

CounterClock Podcast Summary: Episode 8 - "Journey"

Introduction In Episode 8 of "CounterClock," titled "Journey," host Delia D'Ambra delves deep into the complexities of reopening a decades-old homicide case. Delia shares her investigative process, discusses advancements in forensic science, and explores potential new leads that could reignite interest and provide fresh insights into the unresolved Jones case.

Forensic DNA Evidence Delia begins by recounting her interview with Teresa Vreeland, the Director of Forensic Genealogy Services at Bode Technology. Teresa explains the significance of the DNA evidence found on a black string intertwined with tape used to bind the victim, Mr. Jones.

Teresa Vreeland [03:05]: "Your skin cells sweat as you spit. All those fluids contain DNA."

Bode Technology identified a dominant female DNA profile in the mixture, alongside a minor presence of Mr. Jones's DNA. Importantly, no DNA from the defendants, Jessica Black, 911 callers, or prior attorneys was found on the evidence, raising critical questions about the unknown female contributor.

STR vs. SNP DNA Profiles Delia highlights the distinction between traditional DNA profiling methods and newer techniques that could offer more detailed insights.

Teresa Vreeland [06:13]: "We're actually looking at the specific sequence from start to finish. And so we're not counting repeats and we're actually looking in letters."

Traditional Short Tandem Repeat (STR) profiles are routinely used in criminal databases like CODIS but have limitations in identifying unknown contributors. In contrast, Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNP) profiles, utilized in forensic genetic genealogy, can provide more precise familial matches, potentially leading to the identification of unknown individuals linked to the case.

The Jones Case: Current Status and Challenges The black tape evidence remains a focal point in the Jones case. Despite exhaustive efforts by the Forsyth County District Attorney's Office to match the female DNA with individuals connected to the original crime scene, no matches have been found. Delia questions the thoroughness of these investigations and the dismissal of the tape's significance by prosecutors.

Host [10:17]: "They're not going to be willing to do anything that's going to help the case. They don't believe that the tape has any value."

Investigative Efforts and Potential Leads Delia explores whether Bode Technology could re-examine the existing evidence using SNP profiling, given their expertise and previous involvement in the case. Teresa confirms the feasibility, provided the dominant DNA contributor meets specific criteria.

Teresa Vreeland [07:13]: "We can pick up that dominant contributor for the SNP testing. We need that person to be dominant and usually greater than 80%."

Delia also revisits overlooked details, such as the broken wristwatch found at the crime scene, which could have provided a more accurate timeline of the attack if properly documented. Additionally, she scrutinizes the partial shoeprints and light bulb evidence, questioning the logic behind the perpetrators' actions and suggesting the involvement of multiple individuals.

Defense Standpoints and Legal Obstacles Defense attorneys representing Jamal, Christopher, Rayshawn, and Nathaniel express frustration over the inability to access and utilize DNA evidence that could exonerate their clients.

Defense Attorney [09:15]: "The problem is, I can't get the evidence. I can't get the evidence without a judge signing an order saying I can have the evidence."

They argue that the absence of the unknown female DNA in the defendants' profiles undermines the prosecution's case, suggesting potential contamination or fabrication of evidence during interrogations.

Host's Personal Investigation Delia takes a proactive approach by examining phone records from the Willard Cab Company on the night of the crime. She uncovers multiple suspicious calls requesting a cab to Moravia Street around the estimated time of Mr. Jones's attack. The inability to trace these calls due to outdated records and changes in telephone companies hampers the investigation.

Chris Muma [21:36]: "Why in the world would a series of calls be placed to a cab company to come to Mr. Jones? I mean, that's not a coincidence."

Delia theorizes that the caller might have had knowledge of the crime, either as a perpetrator seeking help or as someone connected to the event, emphasizing the need to revisit these leads despite the passage of time.

Conclusion and Future Directions Episode 8 concludes with Delia highlighting the unresolved questions surrounding the Jones case and the potential avenues that forensic genetic genealogy could open. She underscores the importance of meticulous investigation and encourages ongoing scrutiny of all available evidence to uncover the truth.

Defense Attorney [14:37]: "Forward, I'm fine to file emotion and see if your instincts are right."

Delia teases the next episode, "Jigsaw," promising to continue piecing together the intricate puzzle of the Jones homicide.

Notable Quotes

• Teresa Vreeland [03:05]: "Your skin cells sweat as you spit. All those fluids contain DNA."
• Teresa Vreeland [06:13]: "We're actually looking at the specific sequence from start to finish. And so we're not counting repeats and we're actually looking in letters."
• Host [10:17]: "They're not going to be willing to do anything that's going to help the case. They don't believe that the tape has any value."
• Chris Muma [21:36]: "Why in the world would a series of calls be placed to a cab company to come to Mr. Jones? I mean, that's not a coincidence."

Key Insights

• Advancements in Forensic Science: The transition from STR to SNP profiling holds promise for identifying unknown DNA contributors through genetic genealogy.
• Investigative Gaps: Overlooked evidence and procedural oversights, such as the mishandling of phone call records and inadequate documentation of the broken wristwatch, may have hindered the resolution of the Jones case.
• Legal Challenges: Defense attorneys face significant hurdles in accessing and presenting exculpatory evidence, emphasizing the need for judicial support in wrongful conviction cases.
• Potential New Leads: Re-examining phone records and leveraging forensic genealogy could provide crucial breakthroughs, despite the challenges posed by time and data accessibility.

Conclusion "Journey" offers a compelling exploration of the intertwined complexities of forensic evidence, legal maneuvering, and persistent investigative efforts in a cold case. Delia D'Ambra's methodical approach and dedication to uncovering the truth exemplify the relentless pursuit of justice that "CounterClock" champions.

Transcript

[Host]

Looking for perfect gifts for everyone on your list? Ugg, Nike, Barefoot Dreams, Kate Spade, New York and more at Nordstrom Rackstores now. Find everything on their wishlists all in one place. Head to Nordstrom Racks Store to score great brands, great prices, the greatest gifts of all time. Counterclock is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. The unexpected can happen at any moment and Amica knows how important it is to be prepared. Whether it's auto, home, life insurance, Amica has you covered. Their dedicated and knowledgeable representatives will work with you to make sure you have the right coverage in place to protect what matters most. You can feel confident that Amica is there for you. Visit amica.com to get started.

[Verizon Advertiser]

No matter what happens to your phone this holiday, whether it crashes down the chimney or gets broken like a New Year's resolution, Verizon's got you this Black Friday. Trade in any phone, any condition from one of our top brands and get a wonderful new iPhone 16 Pro Pro with Apple Intelligence on Unlimited ultimate and iPad and Apple Watch Series 10. That's up to $2,000 in value, so you'll save big on three amazing Apple gifts. Hurry into Verizon this Black Friday service plan required for iPad and Apple watch. Up to $2,000 value based on iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch. Trade in and additional terms apply. See verizon.com for details. Apple Intelligence available now.

[Host]

The right bra from Third Love can make any outfit look better, fast and look. I've got a lot of holiday parties coming up, which is why I trust Third Love. Their bras make it easy to bring back, lift, get a smooth look, or stop your shirt buttons from pulling. ThirdLove bras also come in over 60 sizes. They even invented half cups for a perfect fit. And honestly, this is where I have found my home. Take advantage of their Black Friday sale. With up to 50% off site, wide and daily deals like wireless bras starting at just $15, it's too good to miss. So visit thirdlove.com now and get your problems solved. This is episode eight journey something I've learned about myself after investigating so many complicated crime stories is that if I sit and stew long enough, a revelation is bound to come. It might take a few hours or a few weeks, but at some point a light bulb goes off and it somehow manages to simultaneously stop me in my tracks and propel me into a completely new phase of investigating. In this episode, I'm going to lay out for you exactly what I mean. But first, let me take you back to this past summer to an interview I had with a woman named Teresa Vreeland. Teresa is the director of Forensic Genealogy services at Bode Technology, the private forensics lab that the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission used to test some of the physical evidence in the Jones case. Boddy's texts found a strong female DNA profile on the black string intertwined with the tape used to bind Mr. Jones hands.

[Teresa Vreeland]

Your skin cells sweat as you spit. All those fluids contain DNA.

[Host]

That profile was the dominant DNA contributor in a mixture of different DNA profiles on that evidence. The data indicated that at least a small amount of DNA in the mixture belonged to Mr. Jones himself. But the female profile was definitely the most concentrated. In addition to confirming what was on that item of evidence, Boddy also determined what wasn't. No DNA from the defendants, Jessica Black, 911 callers, or prior attorneys. So the question that I kept asking myself was, whose DNA was it? And also, was there any testing that could be done now to find out? For the last few years, Bode Technology has been a frontrunner in extracting and sequencing DNA from evidence in criminal cases to generate what's called an SNP profile. SNP or SNP stands for single nucleotide polymorphisms. And they're what genealogy researchers use to find familial matches to an unknown DNA sample.

[Teresa Vreeland]

And we use that to build a profile and determine who they could potentially be based off matching with relatives. So we were able to use their DNA to match with those in consumer databases, build out family trees, and get an idea of who that person could be.

[Host]

Bodie doesn't play favorites when it comes to forensic genetic genealogy testing. They'll provide their services to anyone, regardless of what side of the courtroom they represent.

[Teresa Vreeland]

We've done some cases with the Innocence Projects. There's a number of different ones across the country we've worked with. They have a higher conviction. Maybe it's based on DNA, maybe not. But either way, they have some foreign DNA in the case, and they wanna know, who does this belong to? It could be the true offender. And so there's a lot of value to find out, who does this DNA belong to and how does it play into the crime? Because a lot of times, once you have the name, it's just another piece to the puzzle. You can start trying to figure out what happened, who might have been in that, you know, access to the victim or access to the crime scene, depending on what the sample is. And so there's a lot of value in knowing the name, even if it doesn't turn out to be the probative piece of evidence to solve the case, if you will. It still helps build the total picture. I would never see an instance where more information is hurtful. You know, gather all of the information and then start piecing things together and work together and figure this out.

[Host]

Forensic genetic genealogy and SNP profiles are kind of a new thing. Traditionally, most DNA profiles that you hear about in criminal cases are STR profiles, which stands for short tandem repeats. STR DNA profiles are what law enforcement agencies put into the Combined DNA Index System, also known as codis. I know that's a lot of technical jargon and acronyms to keep straight, but hang in there, because the difference between STR and S and P DNA profiles is really important.

[Teresa Vreeland]

So we're actually looking at numbers in an STR profile. So this repeat repeats eight times, something like that, wherein the SNP testing is single nucleotide polymorphisms, and we're actually looking at the specific sequence from start to finish. And so we're not counting repeats and we're actually looking in letters. That's what the bases of DNA are in letters. And so that's why they're not comparable. One is in letters and the other is in numbers, and so they're not comparable to one another.

[Host]

The unknown female DNA from the evidence in the Jones case has only ever been sequenced as an STR profile, and it's been routinely reentered into codis. But there's never been a hit. Which made me wonder, could a lab like Bodie, which has already done testing on evidence from the Jones case, just sequence the unknown female DNA? Again, with forensic genealogy in mind, if you've got a piece of evidence that has a strong contributor, even in a mixture, could you still sequence that and get a SNP profile from that?

[Teresa Vreeland]

Yeah, usually we can. So with the SNP testing, we can process mixtures. We can pick up that dominant contributor for the SNP testing. We need that person to be dominant and usually greater than 80%. So if you're thinking of a mixture as a whole, this big mix of DNA, at least 80% of that needs to be from this dominant contributor. The other thing to know is we would want it to be a mixture of two people. Mixtures of three or more are even more challenging. So the more people you have mixed into that, the more difficult it is to start separating out one or the other.

[Host]

So there was some criteria the unknown female DNA had to meet. But based on what Teresa told me, theoretically it was possible to get an SNP profile sequenced from it. What's more because Bode has already done a lot of legwork on this case and still has extract left over to test. It wouldn't take much to explore forensic genetic genealogy as an option. If Bodie has already done testing on evidence for a particular agency, and then a few years later, that evidence could be reevaluated, whether at the request of prosecutors or at the request of defense. In your opinion, is it even that much easier to have a evaluation done because Bodie is a lab that did previous testing?

[Teresa Vreeland]

Oh, yeah. If we've already done testing, it's very easy for us. We generally have those files retained here electronically, and so it's pretty easy to pull those up. It really is a simple email or phone call. Hey, I'm considering this sample. Do you mind taking a look at it? Make sure you're authorized or working with that authorized person, and send a request via email or call. It really is that simple.

[Host]

I may not be an authorized person on the Jones case, but you know who is. Since this is going into evidentiary hearing stage, does that allow you guys on the defense to have the opportunity to inspect and request evidence testing on items of evidence?

[Defense Attorney]

Yeah, we could get additional testing. Law enforcement certainly could.

[Host]

Yep. The three defense attorneys currently representing Jamal, Christopher, Rayshawn and Nathaniel.

[Defense Attorney]

The problem is, I can't get the evidence. I can't get the evidence without a judge signing an order saying I can have the evidence.

[Host]

But if it could be exculpatory, wouldn't they be bound in some way?

[Defense Attorney]

Yes, we would have to prove that it is material, that it would have impacted the outcome.

[Host]

Well, how hard could that be? I mean, the DNA is on a tool that was used to bind Mr. Jones. How more material can you get? According to Chris, that's not how prosecutors working the case now see it.

[Defense Attorney]

They're not going to be willing to do anything that's going to help the case. They don't believe that the tape has any value. They think it's just some random person who touched the tape. And that's why their DNA profile. And it's not material to the case at all because the boys are the ones that committed it.

[Host]

Which is kind of wild because back in 2004 and 2005, at the Criminal trials, the state's position was that the black tape was very material. It had been what the defendants used to tie up and gag their victim. It was perhaps the most important piece of physical evidence in the case. Well, that is, until DNA testing years later showed that none of the teens had actually touched it. What are you bringing to the Thanksgiving table this year? A new take on a classic dish, a fun game for the family, or perhaps a new language? As the most trusted language learning program for over 30 years, Rosetta Stone immerses you with an enriching experience. Whether you're traveling to a new country or sitting down at the family table, learning a new language can help enhance connections. I'm going to be brushing up on some of my French during this holiday season because I'm going to be spending a lot of time around my mom and she's been doing the same, so it's something that we can share together. Why French? Well, I learned it a couple of years ago and got pretty proficient with it, but then got away from it. And now I want to start learning more with Rosetta Stone for a short time. Counterclock Listeners can get Rosetta Stone's Lifetime Membership Holiday Special. Visit rosettastone.com counterclock for unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your holiday offer today. Rosettastone.com counterclock.

[Verizon Advertiser]

No matter what happens to your phone this holiday, whether it crashes down the chimney or gets broken like a New Year's resolution, Verizon's got you this Black Friday. Trade in any phone, any condition from one of our top brands and get a wonderful new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on Unlimited ultimate and IP and Apple Watch Series 10. That's up to $2,000 in value, so you'll save big on three amazing Apple gifts. Hurry into Verizon this Black Friday service Plan required for iPad and Apple Watch up to $2,000 value based on iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch. Trade in and additional terms apply. See verizon.com for details. Apple Intelligence available now.

[Host]

Court filings detail however, since the Innocence Inquiry Commission's testing revealed the existence of the female DNA, the Forsyth County District Attorney's Office has been running interference, gathering and testing DNA samples from people who had a reason to be at the original crime scene in 2002, some of whom have stayed in North Carolina and others who've moved across the world. These would be people like EMTs, former cops, evidence clerks. But the DNA in question hasn't matched any of them.

[Chris Muma]

That wasn't an exercise in actually trying to find the perpetrator of this crime. It was an exercise in trying to identify somebody that they could explain as an innocent explanation for unidentified female DNA on one of the tools used to commit the crime. Right, but you shouldn't be able to have it both ways you shouldn't be able to, on one hand, be so concerned about the strength of this evidence that you track someone down in Africa to see if you can get a DNA sample from them to compare and then sort of out of the other side of your mouth say, but none of this really matters, and it's not material anyway. Those things are just irreconcilable. They very clearly believe it's material evidence or they would not have put the resources into trying to identify a source of it that they did.

[Defense Attorney]

They should care about where that profile came from. They wanted to. They cared enough to try and prove it's not related to the crime, but not enough to prove it is related to the crime. Right.

[Host]

Though the defense attorneys will argue until they're blue in the face that it isn't their job to solve who committed this crime, they did agree that my suggestion to explore genetic genealogy testing might be a good idea.

[Chris Muma]

Certainly Chris Bryant and the rest of the people who were wrongfully convicted with him would support any effort to try to identify whose DNA that is.

[Brad Bannon]

We need obsessive people like you thinking through these things because you have to be sort of obsessive. I mean, I know I get that way about any case, you know, when I'm involved in it, it's like, what about this, what about that? But you're a degree farther because you're thinking about some things that I hadn't thought of. I think we're open to doing anything like that, you know, as we go.

[Defense Attorney]

Forward, I'm fine to file emotion and see if your instincts are right.

[Host]

But before Chris took that step, she gave Bodie a call. In July of this year, the lab reviewed its previous reports and all of the samples it still retained. The piece of black tape with the string had a mixture of at least three DNA profiles on it, with the major profile still being that unknown female DNA. The other two profiles are weak and considered minor contributors. Bode classified the mixture as complex and determine that right now it's not suitable for forensic genealogy simply because the science isn't there yet. A disappointment, I know. So it's a waiting game as far as the DNA goes. This update sent me off to Stu again. I read and reread the case file, trying to see if I'd missed something, trying to see if anything new jumped out at me. And sure enough, something did. A few somethings, actually. 1. When police discovered Mr. Jones analog wristwatch beneath his car at the crime scene, it was broken. The glass face had a crack in everything. Yet nowhere in the police reports. Did I see a note about exactly what time it had stopped working? To me, if investigators had looked at the watch face and read the time and documented it, they could have been able to narrow down with some specificity when he was attacked. Theoretically, the window of time they believe the crime occurred, 6:25 to 6:35, could have been whittled down to perhaps an exact minute. I've tried zooming in on the crime scene photos that show the watch, but when you push in too much, the images get super grainy. I can't tell what time the hands read, but that watch is still in evidence. So anyone who has authorization to access it now could go look at it and see what time it stopped working on November 15, 2002. It's certainly something I'd do if I was going into an evidentiary hearing in a few weeks. The second thing I found myself obsessing over was whether the partial shoe prints on Mr. Jones car hood were even connected to the unscrewed light bulbs in the carport light. This is going to get really in the weeds, but just follow me for a sec. Nautical twilight on the night Mr. Jones was attacked was around 6:15pm so there should have still been some light in the sky when his assault took place. Even Calvin Scriven, one of the men who found Mr. Jones, said it was barely dark when he ran over to 905 Moravia street at 7:40ish, more than an hour after the crime.

[Brad Bannon]

When the guy stopped and asked me where Mr. Jones stayed at, you know what I'm saying, He it was like getting dark. It wasn't even all the way dark yet. It was like getting dark. So they had to happen in daylight.

[Host]

You know what I'm saying?

[Brad Bannon]

So it had to happen in daylight. So I don't understand how nobody couldn't see what was going on or whatever.

[Host]

Everyone, including the police and past and present attorneys, has always assumed the partial shoe prints were deposited by someone stepping onto the hood of Mr. Jones car to unscrew the carport light so that they wouldn't be seen tying up Mr. Jones and robbing him. But why would a perpetrator care about turning a light off if there might have been enough light outside for them to be caught anyway? Puzzling, right? Also, if they did unscrew the light, that would mean the perpetrator or perpetrators had to have been waiting and ready for Mr. Jones to park in his carport so they could quickly jump up on the hood, unscrew the bulb, all without him catching Them, so they had to be fast. I ran my thoughts by the defense attorneys. The impressions are on the hood. So the hood has to be there for someone to step on it, to reach up and unscrew the light.

[Brad Bannon]

That's a good connection, though I hadn't thought about it either, that particular timing, so. Yeah, that's a good point. So you're right. It would have had to have. The person had to have gotten up on there after he pulled in the driveways, like after he. Maybe while he was in the house.

[Defense Attorney]

We know he did go inside because he put some groceries down. They probably knew his routine, right? Gets out of the car. If he has something, he gets it out of the passenger side, takes it in. Then the first thing he does is he goes and gets his mail. And when he turns his back to go get the mail that is on the wall at the back of the car, he's going to have his back to the backyard, and they can come up behind him and hide behind the car until he's closer to the door again.

[Chris Muma]

I think this is one of the reasons that I've always believed, based on my review of the available evidence, that more than one person did this. I mean, I believe that there were multiple perpetrators in this attack.

[Host]

Chris Muma agrees with Brad Bannon that it likely took more than one person to commit the crime, even though that theory sort of works against their own clients who were accused as a group.

[Defense Attorney]

I do think it was somebody who knew Mr. Jones because they knew what time he came home every day. He was very much of a man of a schedule. They knew that he had money. Everybody knew he brought it home with them. Like he brought the money from the gas station home with him every night. I think they were in the backyard waiting for him to come home as.

[Chris Muma]

Soon as he got home and as soon as he went into his house, whatever one or more persons was there to commit this crime acted very, very quickly, and they had no idea that the results of their actions would be his cardiac arrest.

[Defense Attorney]

They panicked when they knew something else was happening to him.

[Chris Muma]

It's very safe to say that they aborted that crime at that moment because it freaked them out and they didn't expect it. They showed up to commit a robbery. They didn't show up to commit a murder.

[Host]

If that is what happened, then I think it's more important than ever to revisit the known sightings of individuals at or fleeing from 905 Moravia street on November 15, 2002.

[Brad Bannon]

She sees one person sitting in the driver's seat.

[Chris Muma]

This person did not meet the description of Mr. Jones.

[Defense Attorney]

You have somebody who's dressed in dark clothes, wearing gloves, who's jumping over a fence that's right near the house, and.

[Host]

Review the Willard Cab Company phone calls with a fresh eye.

[Chris Muma]

When a cab company gets a call, multiple calls to go to the scene of a murder before anyone knows there's a murder and no one has come forward to explain that in any way. It's very that's. That's not a coincidence. Track your glucose like you track your favorite artist's next album release.

[Verizon Advertiser]

Introducing Stello, the powerful glucose biosensor that.

[Chris Muma]

Tracks how food, exercise and even sleep affect your glucose.

[Verizon Advertiser]

Join the personal health revolution [e-mail] no matter what happens to your phone this holiday, whether it crashes down the chimney or gets broken like a New Year's resolution, Verizon's got you this Black Friday. Trade in any phone, any condition for more one of our top brands. And get a wonderful new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on Unlimited ultimate and iPad and Apple Watch Series 10. That's up to $2,000 in value, so you'll save big on three amazing Apple gifts. Hurry into Verizon this Black Friday service plan required for iPad and Apple watch. Up to $2,000 value based on iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch. Trade in and Additional terms apply. Seeverizing.com for details. Apple Intelligence available now.

[Host]

In November 2002, Willard Cab Company had three different Bellsouth phone lines in service. One made outgoing calls only, the other was a rollover line and the last was the main number it received customer calls. That number was 336-725-2227. So, 725 cabs. It's what former call taker Miranda Ramirez told me was branded on the side of most of Willard's taxis. Based on what she and one of her coworkers told the Winston Salem police in November 2002, they answered several back to back calls between 6:30ish and 7:15pm on the evening Mr. Jones was killed. The voice on the other end sounded like a young black man and he kept asking for the same Send a cab to 905 Moravia street stat. Unfortunately, Bellsouth Telephone Company didn't provide the police department with Willard Cab Company's call records until December 2, 2000 to 17 days after the murder and 13 days after all of the teen defendants in this case were arrested. Police reports explain that when the records did arrive, they were copied and put in storage. I've spent an unhealthy amount of time studying the November 2002 phone bill for Willard Cab Company. And so have the defense attorneys representing Jamal Christopher, Ran and Nathaniel, we've gone.

[Defense Attorney]

Through all the the numbers on the phone bill from Willard and tie the numbers to locations where we could. And a lot of them are cell phone numbers that you can't tie to.

[Host]

What Chris Moomas said is true. If you just isolate the calls that came Into Willard Cab Company, say between 6pm and 7:30pm on Nov. 15, you'll see the same incoming number popping up a lot. 336-708-0000 right on the front of the phone bill. Bellsouth noted that number wasn't actually someone's cell phone number, but rather a trunk number for a specific cell phone carrier. The Innocence Inquiry Commission investigators figured this out during their five year long investigation too. The phone bill from Belsouth has fine print that explains quot please contact the cellular carrier to identify the actual originating cellular telephone number. End quote.

[Defense Attorney]

They could have gone to the carrier and gotten the detail on what the number was that was coming through, but they didn't. They didn't. And those records no longer exist.

[Host]

When I asked retired detective Chuck Byram why the Willard Cab Company calls were never pursued, he struggled to come up.

[Brad Bannon]

With a response that should have been easily followed up on and either confirmed or dismissed as investigative lead.

[Host]

It wasn't though.

[Brad Bannon]

No.

[Host]

And that is one point that has been raised by a defense claimant in this case of if there's an individual calling multiple times to a cab company asking for someone to send a cab to a man's address who we now know was either being attacked or was already dead before anyone knew that, that is not good. That means that whoever made those calls would have some knowledge of what happened to Mr. Jones.

[Brad Bannon]

Correct.

[Host]

As an investigator, do you think that is something that is worth even looking into now?

[Brad Bannon]

I would say no, simply because of the time that has passed and let me think about that a second, please, before I say something stupid. I understand your point. I understand your point. And that's something that should have been. I mean, it's not like. It's not like it's not the first time we dropped the ball on a criminal investigation, if that's in fact what that would prove or would have proved. The other possible investigative leads that were not exhausted as far as follow up, should they have been sure it's a.

[Host]

Convenient position for Chuck and any other former detective to take. Now, I think it's likely that whoever called a cab to the Crime scene before anyone knew Mr. Cheers Jones was dead. Used a cell phone. The trunk number shows up multiple times in the specific window. We know Willard Cab Company's dispatchers received those suspicious calls in 2006, AT&T bought out Bell south and along with it, all its records. So I reached out and asked ATT's corporate communications office to do some digging, but they were disappointed to inform me that their historians couldn't access data from so far back. During my search efforts, I found two other numbers on the phone bill that repeatedly called Willard Cab Co. Between 6:30 and 7:15pm on the night of the crime. And they didn't appear to belong to cell phones. They were landlines. So I took a trip to the Forsyth County Public Library. So what's really cool is that the Library has the Bellsouth 2002 Winston Salem Yellow Pages and the White Pages. So I'm gonna sit down and look for phone numbers on these Willard Cab Company records and compare them to this phone book or these phone books and see if I can find out any specific names on any of these phone numbers. That would be really cool if I found something. I did find something. Something. Two names. But they were people whose addresses indicated they lived across town from Moravia street in 2002. So it's unlikely they made the calls for the cab. The logistics just don't make sense. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get a hold of them this many years later. What frustrates me is that I believe deep down, whoever made those calls to Willard Cab Company had to have known about or perhaps been involved in what happened to Mr. Jones. Let's just think about the logic of it.

[Chris Muma]

Why in the world would a series of calls be placed to a cab company to come to Mr. Jones? I mean, that's not a coincidence. Who could ever believe that's a coincidence? And when you rule out coincidence, then you have to conclude that it must have something to do with this crime.

[Brad Bannon]

It had to have been somebody involved in the case.

[Host]

If the caller was just a Good Samaritan, why not dial 911?

[Defense Attorney]

They didn't want to call EMS. Right, because call EMS, then you know somebody's hurt, right? So get the taxi to come and see Nathaniel Jones and then call EMS.

[Chris Muma]

They probably cared about Mr. Jones at some level. And instead of calling 911, which might have been a traceable phone call, they repeatedly called a cab company, hoping somebody would drive by, find him, and help him get some medical assistance.

[Brad Bannon]

Whoever did this is probably shocked somewhat, maybe even worried, and was having second thoughts about things, and they were trying to get some help without calling 911. You know, they figured if they call the cab company, then they'll come and see this guy in the driveway.

[Host]

That scenario certainly makes a lot of sense with the facts.

[Defense Attorney]

We know it was somebody who could see, right wherever they were, they could see the house. They knew that the taxi had not come. And they called back and said, where's the taxi? It's not here yet.

[Host]

What's interesting to me, though, is that Rayshawn Banner and Nathaniel Cawthon had a cell phone that they shared in 2002. Their mom gave it to them for emergencies.

[Brad Bannon]

One cell phone. And I left that with them in case they needed to get in touch with me.

[Host]

No one, and I mean no one, including the police, the prosecutors, or defense attorneys at trial, ever checked to see if the number assigned to that device showed up on the Willard Cab Company call records. But to be fair to the attorneys, it was probably too late by the time they came into the picture to retrieve those records. I can't know for sure. What I do know is that police never mentioned the brothers cell phone during their interrogations, even though authorities had learned on November 18, the day before questioning the teens, that the taxi company had received several suspicious calls from a young black male asking for a cab to come to Moravia Street. It's odd to Mark Rabel that police didn't use the cab company calls and the brothers cell phone as additional ammo during their interrogations.

[Brad Bannon]

Jessica doesn't mention any of the kids she's with calling the cab company. None of the five kids who were charged in it mentioned calling the cab company. If those confessions were true, somewhere in there, that would have been mentioned. So it's like a check on that, because even the cops didn't know it, so they couldn't even plant that. But, you know, if they had gotten a call from the cab company immediately that somebody called the cab company, that. That would have appeared in those confessions through the process of contamination. Well, who made the call to the cab company? And they would have said, well, you know, Chris did it or Nathaniel did, or, you know, Stinky did it, or, you know, that would have been in there. So it's like. It's almost like another DNA in the case that the fact that it doesn't appear in the contaminated confessions yet it happened. Somebody hasn't been spoken to, and it probably is the suspect or suspects.

[Host]

I decided to keep digging through the case file, searching for anyone who mentioned taxicabs. And whose story was worth taking a second look at. You didn't tell them what you told me, which is this story of you and Jed in the park being approached?

[Brad Bannon]

No, no, no, I did not. They messed this up so bad because their key, their answer to the murder was right in that neighborhood.

[Defense Attorney]

Whether he was involved or whether he knows who was involved, I don't. I don't know. But I know he knows something.

[Host]

That's next time on counterclock. Episode 9 Jigsaw.

[Chris Muma]

Track your glucose like you track your favorite artist's next album release.

[Verizon Advertiser]

Introducing Stello, the powerful glucose biosensor that tracks how food, exercise, and even sleep affect your glucose. Join the personal health revolution [e-mail] no matter what happens to your phone this holiday, whether it crashes down the chimney or gets broken like a New Year's resolution, Verizon's got you this Black Friday. Trade in any phone, any condition from one of our top brands. And get a wonderful new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on unlimited ultimate and iPad and Apple Watch Series 10. That's up to $2,000 in value, so you'll save big on three amazing Apple gifts. Hurry into Verizon. This Black Friday service plan required for iPad and Apple watch. Up to $2,000 value based on iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch. Trade in and additional terms apply. See verizon.com for details. Apple Intelligence available now.