Ep 9 of 11: Jigsaw

Summary

CounterClock: Episode 9 - Jigsaw

Host: audiochuck
Release Date: December 6, 2024
Duration: Approximately 31 minutes

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In Episode 9 of CounterClock titled "Jigsaw," investigative journalist Delia D'Ambra continues her deep dive into a perplexing homicide case from November 15, 2002. The episode meticulously pieces together testimonies, inconsistencies, and new evidence, striving to reignite interest and uncover truths long buried.

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1. Case Overview and Initial Suspects

The episode opens with the host outlining the basic facts of the case. Mr. Nathaniel Jones, a man in his early 60s residing at 901 Moravia Street, was found dead under mysterious circumstances. Two cleaning ladies, Diane Phant and Yolanda Graham Hairston, were the only known individuals with keys to his house and were present on the day of the crime.

Diane Phant's Statement:

• Timestamp [01:51]: "She said she had a key and started tidying and doing chores at 9 am while he was at work. Around 1:50 pm she'd called a cab to come pick her up and by 2 pm she was gone."

Interestingly, both women reported using taxi cabs to commute to Mr. Jones's residence, yet neither mentioned the existence of the other, raising questions about Mr. Jones's activities and relationships.

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2. The Enigmatic Neighbor: Brian Lindsey

Delia shifts focus to Brian Lindsey, a neighbor living directly next door with his family. Brian's alibi during the time of the crime presents several inconsistencies:

• Host [04:43]: Brian claimed he was at Tasha Coleman's house with Craig Scriven at approximately 7:30 pm, aligning with the time Mr. Jones was found dead.

However, Ava Williams, a witness, placed Brian pacing in front of his home at 5:30 pm, contradicting his alibi.

Detective R.A. Shelton [04:58]:

"After about 10 seconds, 10 seconds later, they ran back over across the street and said they saw the man laying on the side of the car."

Brian further claimed he saw nothing unusual when authorities arrived, a statement that doesn't align with witness accounts of disturbances and potential altercations.

Quotes Highlighting Inconsistencies:

• Host [06:07]: "Ava Williams... saw Brian talking on the phone. Then she saw him again walking around the neighborhood minutes before the attack."

• Detective R.A. Shelton [09:35]:

"I threw it away."

Despite multiple attempts, Delia was unable to contact Brian or his family to probe deeper into these discrepancies. Chris Muma, a member of the Innocence Inquiry Commission, expresses strong suspicions about Brian's potential involvement.

Chris Muma [08:50]:

"Brian Lindsey, I think, is a critical piece in this case, and whether he was involved or whether he knows who was involved, I don't know, but I know he knows something."

Brian's extensive criminal record and recent attempts to relocate only add layers to the mystery, leaving Delia with more questions than answers.

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3. Sherman "Jed" Williams: An Overlooked Lead

The investigation then turns to Sherman "Jed" Williams, an 18-year-old living near Mr. Jones's home during the time of the murder. Jed was questioned shortly after the crime but was released due to perceived mental limitations.

Detective R.A. Shelton [14:35]:

"Even somebody with intellectual disabilities would recognize that Jed had a different level of intellectual disabilities."

Jed's inconsistent statements and the absence of his testimony during the trials raise suspicions. Chris Muma believes Jed holds essential information that remains untapped.

Chris Muma [15:27]:

"Six. The Winston Salem 6."

Delia's attempts to contact Jed were unsuccessful, but she engaged with his former friend, Marcus Shavers, who provides a startling account of the evening in question.

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4. Marcus Shavers: New Testimonies Emerge

Marcus Shavers, then a 15-year-old friend of Jed, offers a detailed and conflicting narrative about the night of the murder.

Marcus Shavers [17:10]:

"We had this scooter, a moped. And this moped, it was beat up... We all took turns riding this thing repeatedly. The police kept showing up... trying to get rid of us from being in that area."

According to Marcus, on the night of November 15th, he and Jed were smoking marijuana in Bellevue Park when three older men approached them, attempting to rob Jed. This encounter, which Marcus describes with vivid detail, directly contradicts Jed's official statements to the police.

Marcus Shavers [20:19]:

"Me and Jed, we're passing it left and right... These guys was older than us... They start smoking and then they start grabbing on Jed's pockets."

This testimony suggests a potential motive linked to jealousy or resentment towards the Jones family’s standing in the community. Marcus's account introduces new suspects and motives that had previously been overlooked or dismissed.

Host [21:40]:

"This story about him and Jed smoking marijuana together in Bellevue park on the evening of the crime and being approached by some guys contradicts Jed's statements to police and depositions he's given in recent years."

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5. DNA Evidence and New Developments

The episode takes a significant turn with the revelation of DNA evidence uncovered in 2020, which introduces new complexities to the case.

Detective R.A. Shelton [26:54]:

"The DNA under the duct tape should have proved everything right there."

Contrary to earlier beliefs, the DNA profile does not match any known suspects, pointing to an unidentified individual outside existing records. This discovery complicates the narrative, suggesting the possibility of a previously unknown perpetrator.

Detective R.A. Shelton [27:33]:

"What if I told you that the DNA on the tape was a strong female profile?"

A female DNA profile shifts the investigation's focus, indicating that the perpetrator may not have been identified initially, and potentially pointing towards a different motive or suspect pool.

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6. The Hunt for Jed and Unanswered Questions

Delia's relentless pursuit leads her to Jed's former residence and attempts to reconnect with his family. However, Jed has since moved, and his mother, Gail, denies any association with Marcus Shavers, despite Delia providing photographic evidence.

Host [28:01]:

"If you're listening and can put me in touch with Sherman Williams, who goes by the nickname Jed, please email [e-mail]."

As the case edges towards an evidentiary hearing, Delia emphasizes the importance of following every lead, no matter how obscure, to ensure justice for Mr. Jones.

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7. Teasing the Season Finale: Episode 10 - Justice

The episode concludes by setting the stage for the season finale, where Delia promises to explore broader systemic issues related to wrongful convictions, referencing other cases like the Daryl Hunt case from 1984. This finale aims to tie together threads from past episodes, providing closure and deeper insights into the justice system's flaws.

Host [30:48]:

"There's definitely a pattern. The Daryl Hunt case, which goes back to 1984."

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Notable Quotes:

• Chris Muma [08:50]:

  "Brian Lindsey, I think, is a critical piece in this case, and whether he was involved or whether he knows who was involved, I don't know, but I know he knows something."

• Marcus Shavers [17:10]:

  "We had this scooter, a moped... trying to get rid of us from being in that area."

• Detective R.A. Shelton [26:54]:

  "The DNA under the duct tape should have proved everything right there."

• Detective R.A. Shelton [27:33]:

  "What if I told you that the DNA on the tape was a strong female profile?"

Conclusion

In "Jigsaw," Delia D'Ambra meticulously unravels the tangled web surrounding Mr. Jones's homicide, highlighting overlooked testimonies, conflicting alibis, and new DNA evidence that challenges previous assumptions. The episode underscores the complexities of cold cases and the critical importance of re-examining evidence with fresh perspectives. As CounterClock approaches its season finale, listeners are left anticipating further revelations and a quest for justice that seeks to correct past oversights.

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For those intrigued by intricate mysteries and the pursuit of truth, Episode 9 of CounterClock serves as a compelling installment that bridges past and present, urging listeners to reconsider what they thought they knew about the case.

Transcript

[Host]

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[Host]

This is episode 9 Jigsaw According to police reports, Mr. Jones had two different women who cleaned his house for him in November 2002, and they both used taxi cabs to get to and from his residence. In fact, one of them, a woman named Diane Phant, had been there on the day of the crime. She said she had a key and started tidying and doing chores at 9am while he was at work. Around 1:50pm she'd called a cab to come pick her up and by 2pm she was gone. She didn't say which company she used to take her home, and I have to assume she used a personal cell phone to place that call because I didn't find that Mr. Jones home phone dialed Willard Cab Company at all on November 15th. When authorities spoke with the other cleaning lady, a woman named Yolanda Graham Hairston, she told detectives that she also had a key to Mr. Jones house and usually took a cab to get there. The last time she had been by was on November 8, a week before the crime, both women said they cleaned Mr. Jones house whenever their schedules allowed. And yet they never ran into one another. It's clear from reading their interviews with police that they didn't know the other existed, which I found kind of odd. Why did Mr. Jones, a fairly capable man in his early 60s, have two maids? I'll probably never find out the answer to that question. But what did jump out to me about the cleaning lady's statements was that they both said they used cabs to get to Mr. Jones house. Neither one was spoken to again after providing their initial statements, I haven't been able to successfully contact Diane or Yolanda to ask them more questions, like if they frequently used Willard cab company or if Diane had seen anyone snooping around Mr. Jones house while she was there. But that's where I'm hoping some of you listening can help out. If you can put me in touch with either of those women, please send an email to counterclockudiochuck.com while I was in a holding pattern with the maids, I revisited the names of people on Moravia street who would have lived within eyesight of Mr. Jones home and whose stories on their face have a few inconsistencies. The first is Brian Lindsey, a man who was in his late 30s back in 2002, who lived directly next door to Mr. Jones at 901 Moravia Street. Brian lived with his brother, his sister and teenage nephew. He was a person at the crime scene that police interviewed shortly after Mr. Jones body was discovered.

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

This is Detective R.A. shelton. I'm in the 900 block of Moravia Street. I'm with Brian Lindsey. L I N D S E Y.

[Host]

Back then, Brian told authorities he'd been at home and then walked to Tasha Coleman's house to hang out with Calvin Scriven on the front porch. He claimed he was at Tasha's when the painter first reported finding something alarming in Mr. Jones carport.

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

After about 10 seconds, 10 seconds later, they ran back over across the street and say they seen the man laying on the side of the car. That's when me and Kevin scribbling, we ran across the street and there goes Nathaniel Jones laying on the side of the car on the ceiling.

[Host]

When you review what's been documented about Brian and his whereabouts on the evening of November 15, there are a few question marks that pop up. For one. Ava Williams, the woman who saw the mysterious figure in Mr. Jones car while leaving her mother's house on a nearby street, told police that she remembered seeing Brian talking on the phone. And pacing the sidewalk in front of 901 Moravia street at 5:30pm at that time, she was on her way to her mom's. Then a short time later, she saw him again just walking around the neighborhood. The second sighting would have been minutes before the attack on Mr. Jones. Yet when Brian spoke to police in 2002, he said he saw nothing amiss on Moravia Street. And he definitely didn't describe seeing a pack of teenage boys surrounding Mr. Jones home or sounds of someone screaming for help.

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

And you didn't notice anything unusual before some people pulled up or didn't hear anything unusual in the neighborhood? No.

[Host]

Second, Calvin Scriven testified at trial that he remembered Brian being with him at Tasha Coleman's house around 7:30pm right before Mr. Jones was discovered. But now Calvin's memory is fuzzy on that detail.

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

They say right next door to each other, he been knowing him his whole entire life.

[Host]

Right. But on the evening of this, Brian Lindsey claimed that he was standing with you at Tasha's house. And Claude the painter came up and told both of you, hey, something's wrong, there's a body. Do you remember Brian with you?

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

I don't remember him standing on the porch. He might have been standing or he might have been going in the house at the same time.

[Host]

And lastly, a young woman who was friends with Brian told Innocence Inquiry investigators years after the crime that he was missing a patch of hair right after the murder. Which was an odd detail considering the fact that authorities had found a patch of hair during the searches of backyards on Moravia street in 2002. This witness didn't come forward for more than a decade, though. And when I got a hold of her a few months ago, she told me she'd suffered a traumatic brain injury in 2021, right after speaking with IIC investigators. She had very little long term memory recollection. Unfortunately, Innocence Inquiry investigators were never able to find and speak with Brian Lindsey face to face to sort out his story or why he was said to be missing hair. I've learned through my investigation that he has an extensive criminal record in Forsyth county dating back to 1991, and at one point was unhoused. Recently, though, Chris Muma's team learned he was living on Moravia street with his sister.

[Chris Muma]

We've tried to talk to Brian several times and we've tried to talk to.

[Host]

Family members, but it's never gone well.

[Chris Muma]

The shutdown of people being unwilling to talk about Brian and the threats we've received when going to his house, it just it sends a message that there's something to hide.

[Host]

What kind of threats?

[Chris Muma]

Like, you know, get the hell away from my property, you know, see you here again, you know, you're never going to come back again or go call law enforcement and we'll do, you know, just really angry about coming and looking for Brian.

[Host]

Though Brian has never been named an official suspect in this case, he was a named witness who was interviewed by law enforcement and investigated by the Innocence Inquiry Commission. Chris Muma is convinced he's an important figure.

[Chris Muma]

Brian Lindsey, I think, is a critical piece in this case, and whether he was involved or whether he knows who was involved, I don't know, but I know he knows something.

[Host]

That is solely Chris opinion, though I can't say I share the same viewpoint about Brian, at least not until I speak with him face to face. But similar to Chris's staff, I had a bizarre interaction with Brian's sister while trying to track him down in Winston Salem. She answered the door and initially took my business card to give to Brian. But when I came back a few weeks later after not hearing from him, I got this. Do you know if he ever got that card or if he's around?

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

I threw it away.

[Marcus Shavers]

I see the income.

[Host]

Yeah. Does he ever come by? Does anyone know where he's at?

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

I don't know.

[Host]

I really have been trying to get in touch with him. I think it's really important that I talk to him.

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

Well, I think it's. I think it's very important that y'all leave him alone because.

[Marcus Shavers]

And stop coming to my house because y'all harass on me and don't come back no more.

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

So please leave.

[Host]

I'm certainly not trying to harass him. I did have better luck with the youngest Lindsey, though, Tony Lindsay, who was 17 back in 2002. I wanted to talk to him not just about his uncle, but also about a tip police got about him. A police report states that two unidentified women who came by the crime scene on the night Mr. Jones was discovered told authorities that they needed to speak with members of the Lindsay family, particularly the youngest resident, 17 year old Tony.

[Chris Muma]

You need to look at the 17 year old that lives next door. Police didn't get the names of the women, so we can't track them down.

[Host]

Detectives didn't document ever talking with Tony, though, So I did 24 years after the fact. What are you bringing to the Thanksgiving table this year? A new take on a classic dish, A fun game for the family, or perhaps a new language. As the most trusted language learning program for over 30 years, Rosetta Stone immerses you with an enriching experience. Whether you're traveling to a new country or sitting down at the family table, learning a new language can help enhance connections. I'm going to be brushing up on some of my French during this holiday season because I'm going to be spending a lot of time around my mom and she's been doing the same, so it's something that we can share together. Why French? Well, I learned it a couple of years ago and got pretty proficient with it, but then got away from it. And now I want to start learning more with Rosetta Stone for a short time. Counterclock Listeners can get Rosetta Stone's Lifetime Membership Holiday Special. Visit rosettastone.com counterclockwise for unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your holiday offer today. Rosettastone.com counterclock okay, let's be real. What's the last thing you couldn't wait to tell your friends about? Maybe it was a must watch show you couldn't stop streaming or a song that immediately became your go to anthem? Well, get ready for this. Mint Mobile offers Premium Wireless for $15 a month when you purchase a three month plan. Yeah, there's no way you're keeping this awesome deal a secret. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts to get this new customer offer and your new three month premium wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month. Go to mintmobile.comCounterclockwise that's mintmobile.comCounterclock Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.comCounterclock 45 dollars upfront payment required, equivalent to 15 dollars a month New customers on first three month plan only speed slower above 40 GB on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. I interviewed him over the phone a few months back and he confirmed he was playing football for Parkland High School when the crime happened. He doesn't know why anyone would accuse members of his family of being involved. He said his mom and uncles were extremely close with Mr. Jones and they were deeply disturbed by what happened to him. He doesn't think for a second Brian had anything to do with the crime, but he also doesn't know if the young men who were arrested for it are guilty either. The next person I looked at With a critical eye was a guy named Sherman Jed Williams, who just went by Jed in 2002. He was 18 years old and lived with family members at an address on moravia street about 500ft from Mr. Jones front door. If it's easier to visualize it this way, Jed lived roughly two football fields directly down and across the street from where Mr. Jones lived. Winston Salem police detectives brought Jed in for questioning on November 19, 2002, at the exact time they were interrogating the other teens in this case. In several of the defendants confessions, they'd told investigators that Jed was with them, riding around in Jessica's car. And yet police let Jed leave the police station after only 30 minutes in the hot seat. Jed told detectives he was with his friends and Jessica riding around, and they had not robbed or killed anyone. According to police reports, the reason authorities cut Jed loose so quickly was because they determined he was, in their words, mentally slow. I've heard from a few folks I've interviewed that Jed had an issue with drooling and was noticeably regressed, but still functional and independent.

[Chris Muma]

Even somebody with intellectual disabilities would recognize that Jed had a different level of intellectual disabilities.

[Host]

Judd's statement that he was with his friends riding around in Jessica's car, not in Southside, conflicted with the narrative investigators felt happened. Teresa Banner and Chris Muma are convinced that's why he was allowed to walk out of the police station and was never called as a witness at the trials, because otherwise he probably would be.

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

The Winston Salem 6.

[Marcus Shavers]

They questioned him and they let him go because they said he was slow. Well, hell, so was they. They just as slow as him? Probably not as slow, but the same. But he told you he was with them. My resolve with that is you let Sherman go because Sherman took them away from that crime. That's what I believe.

[Host]

So Sherman Williams was a liability because he's not confirming what they've already established is the narrative. So they gonna just let him go?

[Marcus Shavers]

Just let him go.

[Chris Muma]

It was going to be harder for law enforcement to use Jed like they could use the other boys. His name comes up in several of the statements that he was, you know, with them.

[Listener]

Right.

[Chris Muma]

So they're implicating him. But I think law enforcement knew they needed to stay away, that that was going to be too complicated if they brought him into the picture. So I think when we pointed out at the three judge, why is Jed like Judd's in all of these confessions? But they didn't feel like Judd was involved, so they didn't believe the Confessions. I don't think Jed was involved. And based on the timing of when he was with everybody and who was in the car with Jessica, and I don't think he was involved in any way.

[Host]

The Innocence Inquiry Commission re interviewed Jed a few years ago, but his story didn't change. He's maintained that he was with his friends, riding around Winston Salem in Jessica's car. And then after it got dark, they dropped him off on Moravia street. And that's when the group saw police cars and the crime scene at Mr. Jones house. I tried for a few months to get ahold of Jed for an interview, but I didn't have much luck. So I ended up speaking with a former friend of his named Marcus shavers. Marcus was 15 years old in 2002 and was also friends with Rayshawn, Nathaniel, Christopher, Jamal and Darrell. He'd seen them on the afternoon of November 15, right before many of them left with Jessica. Marcus lived within walking distance of Devonshire street and often hung out with his buddies, doing the one thing they all loved.

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

We had this scooter, a moped. And this moped, it was beat up, it was toe up, it was beat down. You know, it was ran wraggly, but it ran. We all took turns riding this thing repeatedly. The police kept showing up, hey, your scooter. Somebody's complaining about your scooter. Somebody saying that you was in the yard. They was. They was coming up with excuses, trying to get rid of us from being in that area and actually riding around with the scooter.

[Host]

Marcus told me that he was shocked when his friends got arrested for this crime.

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

I never seen not one of those guys rob anyone, put their hands on anyone in aggressive manner, ready to take their stuff. No, these guys didn't have it in their heart. They wasn't strong enough, built enough, to be beaten on a man for a long period of time.

[Host]

In a 2003 police interview with one of Jamal's sisters, Marcus name was briefly brought up. Jamal's sister told investigators that she thought he could have been involved because after the crime, he'd come around asking about the case. I decided to just ask Marcus straight up, what was he doing on the evening of November 15th? His response was not what I expected.

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[Detective R.A. Shelton]

I follow Jed and we goes down to the park.

[Host]

Which park?

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

This is Bellevue Park. This is the one you're talking about right there on the corner across the street from that church. Like d know across the street from a church, a big brick church. We're at the park, me and Jed. It's dark out. Me and Jed, we're passing it left and right, left and right, left and right. Three guys walk up. I don't know these three guys. Jed know these three guys. Jed tells me, oh, no, these guys right here, you know, they're going to try something. We're, we're steady passing. They came up, hey, Jed, what are you doing rubbing on his shoulders over. Just smoking this little L, you know. Oh, okay, okay. Can I hit it? Can I hit it? They grab, they grabbed it straight out of his hand. These guys was older than us. They start smoking and then they start grabbing on jet pockets, you know, like as they was going to try to rob him. Like, man, chill out. I don't have anything else. I don't have nothing. You know, this is all I got. Chill out. They went Away. Me and Jed went to his aunt house. We ate some candy. Cause his aunt owned the candy store. We ate some candy. I passed out. Jed passed out on the bed. I passed out on the floor.

[Host]

This story about him and Jed smoking marijuana together in Bellevue park on the evening of the crime and being approached by some guys contradicts Jed's statements to police and depositions he's given in recent years. Marcus also claimed it was dark, which meant it had to be after sunset before Police got the 911 call about Mr. Jones. Otherwise, if he and Jed are sitting in the park smoking in the dark, then they should have also been looking directly at emergency lights and crime scene tape all up around the corner. I asked Marcus if he was sure he had the right date and wasn't thinking of some other time he hung out with Jed, but he said he was sure. He remembers it was November 15th because of how uncomfortable the strangers who'd approached him and Jed had made him. And then when they woke up the next day and learned Mr. Jones had been killed, it stuck with him. When I asked him why he'd shared this story with me, he claimed it was because he'd seen one of the guys from the park at a local store in Winston Salem just a few days before I called. So things were fresh in his mind.

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

When I seen the guy at the store, I said, where I know this guy from? Where do I know this guy from? I seen him before. Now I'm 37. Now. I'm not 30, 31, 20 something or, you know, I'm 37. I'm getting a little older in age. And I'm like, hold on now. I kind of remember this guy. Set back. It bothered me for the longest till I pinpointed his face. That night at the park, the boys that we've seen at the park, I'll relate closer to the age of the same guy who's in the NBA right now. Chris Paul. Everybody know he was about to be scouted. Everybody know he's master basketball in the state of Winston Salem. What if these guys played against them? Both these guys went to high school with him.

[Host]

You wonder if maybe those individuals that approached you and Jed that night, which would have been the night of this crime, could have been involved. And if those folks were involved, did they target Mr. Jones because they knew the relevance of his family at that time?

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

Bravo. Bravo. They knew the reverence of their family. He knew this guy was about to take off to Wake Forest. How do you think somebody is not going to be Mad or have hatred against you or your family because you became something or made it out of the place that they gotta stay here the rest of their life. I am still. I just seen the guy at the store. You know, I believe that's more relevant than a couple of guys who were standing around the corner who's been a pest because of their moped.

[Host]

Winston Salem police never interviewed Marcus in 2002, but in recent years, the Innocence Inquiry Commission and Chris Muma's team did. Except I've read the transcripts of the interviews they did with him and the theory he presented to me, and his story about him and Jed getting approached by three guys in the park on the night of the crime was noticeably absent from those interviews. I pressed him about why what he told me was so much more detailed than what he told the others. You didn't tell them what you told me, which is this story of you and Jed in the park being approached.

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

No, no, no, I did not. Because like I told you, you called me at the right time. Because I seen one of the guys and I remember the night. Simple fact is I was young and I didn't want to bring up smoking. You know, the attorneys was trying to put me on the stand. I called my mom. I called a lot of people and get what they're thinking, and this what they told me, do not deal with it. She don't want me to be involved with this situation because of how North Carolina is. When the lawyers approached me, I felt like I didn't want to get involved neither, because they can try to drive me into something on some stupid, stupid stuff.

[Host]

So essentially, Marcus didn't want to be dragged into court or admit to a bunch of lawyers. He'd smoked weed, which I can understand. But toward the end of our second conversation, he said something that caught me off guard.

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

We didn't do too many robberies. Well, we didn't do no robberies. I'm sorry about that. Too many. We didn't do no robberies. You know, I know I have got in a fight and tumbled over, like, snatched something and ran away, but I never, you know, I never actually sat there and like, that's how could be like a real live, tough guy type of deal.

[Host]

Marcus is likely referring to his arrests in Forsyth county for crimes like breaking and entering, larceny, grand theft, and burglary dating back to 2004. He served time for those offenses and eventually moved out of state for several years. He returned to Winston Salem recently and started a business for as far removed as he is. From what happened to his friends in 2002, he seemed to know a lot about the case. And the most recent updates, specifically, that DNA is now a big focus of the defendant's innocence claims.

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

The DNA under the duct tape should have proved everything right there.

[Host]

They found out the profile of DNA on the tape in 2020. It just comes back to a person that is not in any of the databases.

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

Wow. That's weird. That's. That's weird. I. Wow. So that means. That means the person who actually did that haven't been in trouble anymore. That means, obviously it's someone else in the picture who never been arrested before. This probably got something to do with something else. This is something else.

[Host]

What if I told you that the DNA on the tape was a strong female profile? What would you think about that?

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

This is a whole different ball game, ma'am. If it's a strong female. Yeah, that's. That's weird. Now. Now the tables have turned. Just. I don't even know what even to say about that.

[Host]

I decided to tell Marcus about the suspicious phone calls to Willard Cab Company. He said he didn't know anything about that, but he did recall cabs being around Bellevue park and on Moravia street or neighboring streets on a regular basis. Back in 2002, there used to be.

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

A couple of cabs sitting behind the park.

[Host]

Do you remember what the name of that company was?

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

No, I can remember that. I think the color of the cabs was, like, blue, I believe.

[Host]

This detail got me thinking. If there was a cab in close proximity to the crime scene as the perpetrator or perpetrators were fleeing, is that what gave them the idea to call Willard Cab Company for help? Did they see a taxi with Willard's phone number on the side of it and just dial that out of desperation, thinking it would get there quickly? I can't know the answer to that question, but it's a scenario that might be possible. After my conversations with Marcus, I wanted more than ever to speak with Jed. So I went to his old address on Moravia street, hoping he might still live there. Hey, how are you doing? My name is Celia. I was looking for a young man named Jed. I spoke with his mom, Gail, who confirmed he still lived with her, but he wasn't home. She said Jed worked third shift and would go straight to sleep when he arrived. She personally didn't remember her son bringing a friend home to sleep over on the night Mr. Jones was killed, which doesn't mesh with Marcus version of events, but who knows? Maybe there's some misremembering going on here. I visited with Gail a few months after our first interaction and once again tried to get her to confirm whether or not Marcus was friends with Jed and stayed at her house on the night of the crime. I even showed her a photo of Marcus, but she said she didn't recognize him, had never seen him before in her life, which definitely felt strange to me. Unfortunately, during our second visit, she informed me that Jed had since moved to Wilkesboro, North Carolina and didn't have a working phone. So if you're listening and can put me in touch with Sherman Williams, who goes by the nickname Jed, please email [e-mail] as this case heads toward an evidentiary hearing, it feels more important than ever to keep investigating every possible lead, to count every clue as important. Because dismissing leads and making wrong assumptions is something Winston Salem has experienced far too much of.

[Detective R.A. Shelton]

This is not the first time that these detectives have been in situations where a person has been convicted of wrongly convicted.

[Chris Muma]

There's definitely a pattern. The Daryl Hunt case, which goes back to 1984.

[Host]

I'm diving into that and so much more in the season finale of Counterclockwise. Buckle up for episode 10 justice, which starts right now.

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