Episode 3: 40 Minutes

Summary

CounterClock — Episode 3: 40 Minutes

Podcast by Audiochuck | Host: Ben Bradley
Episode Date: May 28, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the pivotal 40 minutes during which the Lane Bryant murders occurred in Tinley Park, Illinois. Host Ben Bradley reconstructs the timeline, investigates critical evidence, and explores lingering questions about the perpetrator's identity and motives. Using firsthand accounts from investigators, survivors, and victims' families, the episode uncovers new insights, focuses on the role of surveillance and forensic evidence, and reflects on the haunting impact of the crime nearly two decades later.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Lucky Breaks" of the Killer (00:30—02:19)

• Critical Circumstances:
  The killer had two remarkable strokes of luck:
  • No security cameras inside Lane Bryant captured the crime.
  • He narrowly missed encountering a police officer responding to a different nearby call.
• Quote:
  “We missed this guy by seconds.” — Rick Bruno [01:38]
• Lasting Impact:
  “The fact we're still talking about the case nearly 18 years later tells you that he's either lucky or good.” — Jenna Griffiths [01:57]

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2. Surveillance Footage and Vehicle Mysteries (02:19—10:32)

• Parking Lot Clues:
  Cameras from a nearby Target captured two dark vehicles (an SUV and a sedan) parked strategically near Lane Bryant around the time of the murders.
  • The SUV’s off-center license plate became a focus for vehicle identification.
• Investigation Efforts:
  NASA scientist Dr. David Hathaway enhanced the grainy video for clearer analysis.
  • “So that looks to me like some sort of dark colored. It’s like an suv, minivan or SUV right in front of the store right about the time that the killings would have happened. That’s amazing...” — Jenna Griffiths [05:39]
• Official Response:
  Police deemed the video “inconclusive” as no license plates or clear identifications could be made, though the timing was highly suspicious.
• Significance:
  The cars' parking spots—outside a vacant storefront and not in front of businesses—suggest a potential link to the crime.

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3. The 911 Call: The Killer’s Voice (10:32—16:45)

• Crucial Evidence:
  The police released 37 seconds of edited 911 audio to “America’s Most Wanted.”
  • Audio analysis by the FBI attempted to isolate phrases and accent clues.
  • Phrases identified: “Don’t be a hero,” and “I’m losing it.”
• Victim Courage:
  Rhoda McFarland, the store manager, made the 911 call while being held.
  • “She was shot in the front of the head. She was first. I know she was first.” — Stuart Gibbs [14:45, 15:05]
• Emotional Toll:
  Family members described listening repeatedly to the audio, searching for familiar voices or hints.

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4. Withholding Key Evidence (16:08—17:54)

• Police Strategy:
  Authorities held back details unique to the killing to validate future confessions and preserve the investigation’s integrity.
  • “Release everything we possibly can, except a couple things that would be unique to the killing that only the killer would know.” — Aaron Woolfolk quoting Mayor Ed Zabracki [16:19]

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5. Family Reflections and Victim Acts (17:54—20:02)

• Families’ Agony:
  Relatives grappled with thoughts of their loved ones’ final moments and unresolved questions.
• Rhoda’s Bravery:
  “Rhoda Cherise Hamilton McFarland was not leaving that store without them other women. … If I go, they go, too. That’s just who she is.” — Stuart Gibbs [19:24]
• Significance:
  Rhoda’s call enabled a rapid police response and preserved key evidence.

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6. The Killer’s Behavior & Local Knowledge (20:19—23:30)

• Colloquial Clues:
  Discussion of the killer’s speech revealed he may have been a local, based on his use of “Tinley” instead of “Tinley Park.”
  • “If you’re from the area you might refer to it as Tinley. … He said Tinley, and that kind of made me go, hmm.” — Rick Bruno [21:42]
• Premeditation:
  Evidence points to prior planning—a gun, duct tape, and entry method suggest the crime was targeted and prepared.
• Delivery Ruse:
  Saturday morning deliveries were rare; the killer’s use of a delivery pretext was likely part of the plan.

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7. Escape Routes and Logistics (26:09—29:49)

• On-the-Scene Reporting:
  Ben Bradley describes the layout, noting the store’s proximity to major highways and possible escape routes.
• Expert Insight:
  Two exits led to swift access to Interstate 80, making a fast getaway plausible.
  • “You had every pathway in America to get to where you was going.” — Stuart Gibbs [28:56]
• Escape Puzzles:
  Despite the need to disappear quickly, the killer spent approximately 40 minutes in the store, raising questions about his motives.

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8. Motive: Robbery or Something Else? (29:49—32:44)

• Lingering Questions:
  Why did the killer stay for 40 minutes? Why execution-style murders for a robbery with little financial gain?
  • “They said the motive initially robbery, but I find it hard to believe that the total motive behind this crime would be robbery. Something else has to be involved.” — Jenna Griffiths [30:27]
• Sexual Assault Allegation:
  Police learned the killer fondled one victim during the ordeal, unexpected in a robbery scenario.
  • “It surprised the FBI, too… this really doesn’t fit anything.” — Rick Bruno [31:14]
• Victim Resistance:
  Connie Woolfolk fought back, leaving DNA under her fingernails.
  • “They told her she fought back because she did have somebody’s DNA up underneath her fingernail.” — Aaron Woolfolk [32:35]

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9. Forensic Evidence and Investigative Hurdles (33:04—34:54)

• Evidence Types:
  Investigators have DNA, fingerprints, and hair, but none matched any known offenders in national databases.
  • “We can assume that the person who did this has not committed any other crimes in the years leading up to it or after, because I’m told they have his DNA. So he would have popped.” — Jenna Griffiths [34:38]

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10. Looking Inward: Examining Connections (35:18—36:03)

• Final Mystery:
  Authorities investigated whether the perpetrator had any prior relationship with the store or victims.
  • "Could this perp have been connected with the store in the past? Was there any relationship between he and possibly some of the employees that work there now?" — Jenna Griffiths [35:18]

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• “We missed this guy by seconds.” — Rick Bruno [01:38]
• “This killer had every possible break that he could.” — Jenna Griffiths [01:57]
• “That’s absolutely amazing. I see another vehicle here though.” — Jenna Griffiths [05:39]
• “He’s either lucky or good. Which is also scary, isn’t it?” — Jenna Griffiths [25:59]
• “Why you took out 40 minutes of your time to sit here with six women and then you try to murder them all. What were you doing there for 40 minutes?” — Stuart Gibbs [29:49]
• “They said the motive initially robbery, but I find it hard to believe that the total motive behind this crime would be robbery. Something else has to be involved.” — Jenna Griffiths [30:27]
• “They told her she fought back because she did have somebody’s DNA up underneath her fingernail.” — Aaron Woolfolk [32:35]
• “We can assume that the person who did this has not committed any other crimes...because I’m told they have his DNA. So he would have popped.” — Jenna Griffiths [34:38]
• “If you’re from the area you might refer to it as Tinley. He said Tinley, and that kind of made me go, hmm.” — Rick Bruno [21:42]

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Segment Timestamps

• Lucky Breaks & Timeline: [00:30–02:19]
• Surveillance Footage Analysis: [02:19–10:32]
• 911 Call and Forensic Audio: [10:32–16:45]
• Family Impact and Victim Courage: [17:54–20:02]
• Killer's Speech and Local Knowledge: [20:19–23:30]
• Store Layout & Escape Routes: [26:09–29:49]
• Crime Motives & Assault Details: [29:49–32:44]
• Forensics & Evidence Challenges: [33:04–34:54]
• Connections & Suspicions: [35:18–36:03]

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Tone & Style

The episode is methodical, detailed, and empathetic, balancing investigative rigor with the emotional gravity of the case. Firsthand testimonies from law enforcement and victim families add poignant depth and urgency.

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Final Thoughts

Episode 3 meticulously reconstructs the 40 minutes that changed countless lives, asking why a killer would bide his time when escape was in reach, and scrutinizes evidence that, to this day, has failed to identify the murderer. It’s an absorbing chapter in the Lane Bryant mystery, laying bare both investigative triumphs and frustrations while honoring the unwavering bravery of its victims and their families.

Transcript

[Ashley Flowers]

Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers, creator and host of the number one true crime podcast, Crime Junkie. Every Monday, me and my best friend Brit break down a new case, but not in the way you've heard before and not the cases you've heard before. You'll hear stories on Crime Junkie that haven't been told anywhere else. I'll tell you what you can do to help victims and their families get justice. Join us for new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday. Already waiting for you by searching for Crime Junkie wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Ben Bradley]

This is episode three, 40 minutes. A quick note. If while listening to this season you recognize any of the names or locations that are being discussed and have information you'd like to share, send me an [e-mail]. On the morning of the Lane Bryant murders, the killer benefited from two very critical, very lucky breaks. Lucky break number one, as I mentioned in the previous episode, there were no security cameras inside the Lane Bryant that showed the crime taking place. And lucky break number two, he somehow avoided crossing paths with a Tinley park police officer who was responding to an unrelated call inside Brookside Marketplace at the same time as the murders.

[Rick Bruno]

We had an officer within 300 yards of that store when we got when

[Aaron Woolfolk]

the call came in, and he obviously dropped everything, jumped in the car and went over. And there is a feeling that he and the killer crossed.

[Rick Bruno]

We missed this guy by seconds.

[Aaron Woolfolk]

You know, I go down maybe 30 seconds. Difference in time would have made. What a difference. What a difference.

[Stuart Gibbs]

There's no way they could have even known or thought to see who are they looking for? You don't have a description yet.

[Jenna Griffiths]

This killer had every possible break that he could. A police officer is in the shopping center, responds in a minute. This guy had a lot of things break in his direction. The fact we're still talking about the case nearly 18 years later tells you that he's either lucky or good.

[Ben Bradley]

The killer managing to slink out of sight so quickly was unfortunate, but authorities weren't at a total loss. In his wake, the offender had left several clues that were of immeasurable value. There was a living eyewitness who knew what he looked like. He'd left behind partial fingerprints as well as shell casings from a.40 caliber semi automatic handgun. And there was a camera in Brookside Marketplace that he likely had no idea had a line of sight of the Lane Bryant storefront.

[Jenna Griffiths]

Investigators are hoping this video helps solve the Lane Bryant shooting case. This grainy black and white video shows a dark Colored SUV and a dark sedan near the suburban Chicago clothing store around the time of the deadly February 2 shootings. A surveillance camera at a Target store about 100 yards away captured the images.

[Ben Bradley]

That's right. Not far from the unmistakable bullseye logo on the super target, about 200 yards away from the Lane. Brian, there was a panning surveillance camera mounted on top of the building. I clocked it when I was at Brookside Marketplace a few months ago. I can look over and actually see where the surveillance camera would have been in 2008. It is unreal how close the Target is to the site of the former Lane Bryant store. Like, if I did a swift run, I could probably get to the front of the Super Target in less than 45 seconds. According to sources I spoke with in 2008, Target's security camera was a panning camera, meaning that it panned across sections of the parking lot at certain points in time. So leading up to and after the murders, there were blind spots where the camera did not show what was happening in front of the Lane Bryant. However, between 10:30 and 10:46am it had panned toward the parking lot in front of the Strip plaza that housed the women's clothing store. And that specific time frame, 10:30 to 10:46am was crucial for two very important reasons. One, Rhoda McFarland dialed 911 at approximately 10:44am shortly after that is when the murders occurred. And two, the dash cam video from the first responding officer's police cruisers showed that they arrived at 10:46am about two minutes after the 911 call was received. Now, assuming as authorities have, that the timestamps on all the recording devices were accurate, the killer had less than two minutes to shoot all six women and then escape. In the weeks after the crime, Tinley Park's police chief, Mike o' Connell told the press that his department initially considered the video insignificant when they discovered Discovered it. But they gave the footage to America's Most Wanted anyway to see what they could do with it. And the show's reporting team, led by producer Jenna Griffiths, got to work trying to deduce as much as possible from it.

[Jenna Griffiths]

Fox TV's America's Most Wanted paid a NASA scientist to enhance it for the surveillance video.

[Erica Karstens]

We went down to Huntsville, Alabama. We had a man look at it from NASA. We were trying to isolate the grainy video to see what best you could find.

[Jenna Griffiths]

Dr. David Hathaway invented a method of enhancing videotape to get clearer images from space. He also uses it to help Law enforcement pry clues from surveillance video. While we were with Dr. Hathaway, we made a crucial discovery. So that looks to me like some sort of dark colored. It's like an suv, minivan or SUV right in front of the store right about the time that the killings would have happened. That's amazing. Yeah, it's definitely not there now. That's what we're going to want to look at. That's absolutely amazing. I see another vehicle here though.

[Ben Bradley]

Not one, but two vehicles parked in front of the Lane Bryant storefront one minute and then gone the next.

[Jenna Griffiths]

At 10:44, there's a car here in front of this SUV and there's the back of a SUV or a van parked straight on into the store. A minute later, the car in front of this SUV is gone. The other van or SUV is still there. A minute after that SUV or van that's parked straight on into the store, it's gone as well.

[Ben Bradley]

Despite the poor quality of the surveillance footage, it was clear that at 10:39am and 10:40am two dark colored vehicles, one which appeared to be an SUV with an off center license plate holder and a dark sedan parked in front of a vacant storefront to the left of the Lane Bryant. Then at 10:44, one leaves immediately followed by the other. At 10:45am we were excited that we

[Erica Karstens]

felt, yeah, there might really be something here, especially with like the location of the license plate. We thought this could be nothing or this could be something, but at least it's something.

[Ben Bradley]

Jenna and her team brought what they'd found to the police's attention, but they were met with mixed reactions. Some folks in the war room were unimpressed and deemed the images too inconclusive because they were grainy and didn't reveal any license plate information. Former commander Rick Bruno told me he's still unsure what he thinks about the relevance of the footage.

[Rick Bruno]

They could potentially mean that that was him or his accomplice. It could also potentially mean that it was somebody that was done shopping and left.

[Ben Bradley]

I wanted to dig as far into this video as I possibly could, mostly because of how suspicious the timing of the vehicle's arrivals and departures were. Tinley park police would not approve my FOIA request to get a copy of the raw footage, but we were able to procure licensing for America's Most Wanted segment. Images of the video that the NASA expert analyzed are on the blog post for this episode. One big reason why I have a hard time buying the cars belong to unassuming customers theory is because, well, it doesn't make sense. When I interviewed Marie, the Sally's beauty supply employee who overheard the murders, she told me something that piqued my interest. Between when you heard the clang sound, which we know was the gunshots, and when you heard someone enter your store, you guys didn't have any customers come in, correct?

[Erica Karstens]

Yeah, there was no customers.

[Ben Bradley]

Which means whoever was in the two mystery vehicles wasn't at Brookside Marketplace that Saturday morning to shop at Sally's. And because there weren't more than six victims from the Lane Bryant, I think it's safe to say the occupants of the cars also were not at Brookside Marketplace that morning. For full figured women's clothing in the Target surveillance footage, it's obvious there was ample parking in front of the strip Plaza that housed the Lane Bryant. Like a lot of open spots. But the cars parked in front of a four lease storefront. So whoever were in those vehicles were not shopping at your retailer. They weren't shopping at the Lane Bryant, which would have left at Yalls side of the plaza. What other retailers? There were unleashed units around you and Elaine Bryant.

[Erica Karstens]

Exactly.

[Ben Bradley]

Now, it's possible the occupants of the two mystery cars could have been shopping at the other retailers on the opposite end of the strip Plaza as Lane Bryant and Sally's. But then my question is, why didn't they park closer to those other stores? Why did they park in front of a vacant storefront next to Sally's and Lane Bryant? It seems more likely to me that the drivers of those cars chose where they parked for a reason. And it's logical to at least consider that reason might have something to do with the crime that took place that morning. Officially, though, Tinley park police have never clarified if the two vehicles seen in the target surveillance footage are connected to the suspect or a possible accomplice. However, they've also never said that they aren't. So absent TPPD's input, we're left to deduce only a few things about the mystery vehicles, the most interesting of which is the placement of the license plate on the one that appears to be an suv.

[Rick Bruno]

It wasn't centered.

[Aaron Woolfolk]

It was like on the left.

[Ben Bradley]

That detail suggested the vehicle could be a specific make and model. Perhaps a Land Rover Discovery or an older model Jeep or even a Suzuki, depending on the year. To this day, no one but maybe the police know for sure what kind of vehicles the SUV and sedan were or who they belonged to. And when it comes down to it, there was a far more crucial piece of evidence that was recorded at the time of the crime, which police deemed intrinsically more significant. The killer's voice.

[Jenna Griffiths]

911-emergency.

[Ben Bradley]

In episode one. I told you that the full 911 call Rhoda McFarland made while she and the other women were being held in the Lane Bryant store has never been publicly released. And that's true, it hasn't. But in 2008, when police gave America's Most Wanted the target surveillance footage, they also gave the show's producers about 37 seconds of the 911 call. The audio was spliced and heavily edited so that background noise, like the victims voices couldn't be heard, leaving only the offender's voice audible. And as you can tell, it's very difficult to delineate anything he's saying. Which is why America's Most Wanted sought some expertise from the FBI's Forensics Audio Unit when they got a hold of the clips back in 2008.

[Jenna Griffiths]

What do we think they're saying there or he's saying there.

[Rick Bruno]

It sounds like he's instructing the victim

[Ben Bradley]

to put something in the bag.

[Erica Karstens]

We didn't just want to take the elements that the police gave us and just show them as they were. We really wanted to have experts analyze them much better than, you know, my eyes or my ears could hear for the audio. We went to Quantico in Virginia to try to isolate the audio as best as we could because it's really not clear what the perpetrator is saying. So we were trying to isolate his audio. And also maybe, you know, a relative of the perpetrator would recognize the voice or did the voice have a specific accent to it?

[Jenna Griffiths]

I think that he's saying set up you. Oh, set up like sit up. Right. That could tell us something though about his dialect.

[Ben Bradley]

As the experts at Quantico slowed the clips down, removed background noise and played the audio at varying speeds, they concluded the perpetrator had uttered some specific phrases while yelling in the background, seemingly unaware he was being recorded. For example, in this snippet, it's believed he might be saying don't be a hero, alright? And in this clip it sounds like he's saying I'm losing it. Now, no one but police know the full context of the call or how long it lasts, but they've confirmed publicly that the fatal gunshots were recorded at the end of it, marking the victims times of death as somewhere between 10:44 and 10:45am here's Michelle Talos, Jennifer Bishop's sister.

[Michelle Talos]

I believe I was told that you can actually hear the shots fired, but of course they're not going to let us hear that.

[Ben Bradley]

It's assumed that when the offender discovered Rhoda was on the line with 911, either via her Bluetooth headset or an actual phone, he began shooting. And there's credible evidence that supports that sequence of events. During my interview with Dawn Palacek, one of the first paramedics who was on scene, she mentioned an interesting detail about the position of Rhoda's body in Lane Bryant's stockroom. The manager's body was not with theirs.

[Erica Karstens]

She was off to the other side,

[Ben Bradley]

meaning the four victims and the survivor were all together, but Rhoda was slightly across the room from them by herself. Rhoda's head wound was also different from the other victims.

[Stuart Gibbs]

She was shot in the front of the head. She was shot. Executioner stuff.

[Ben Bradley]

All of the other women were shot in the back of their heads. Investigators have never publicly said if Rhoda was the first person to be killed, but her boyfriend, Stuart Gibbs, told me that in private. Police confirmed to him that was the case.

[Stuart Gibbs]

She was first. I know she was first.

[Ben Bradley]

To further corroborate that detail, I visited the dispatcher who took the 911 call, but she declined to do an interview, expressing to me that it was still too traumatic to talk about the murders even this many years later. From speaking with other victims family members, I learned that at least some of the women were shot in the head more than once. But for the sake of not compromising anything investigators might be working on now, I'm not going to reveal which ones. And it's that same sentiment, the desire to protect the integrity of the.

[Ashley Flowers]

In the world of true crime, the real story isn't always in the headlines. It's in the evidence. I'm Brandi churchwell, host of 13Zero podcast, and I'm here to take you past the news cycle and straight into the courtroom. Every week I'll break down the investigation, the prosecution, the defense, and everything that unfolds beyond beyond the jury box. We'll examine every testimony, every exhibit, and every hidden motive. Listen to 13th Juror, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Bradley]

Case that prompted Tinley park police to edit the 911 call so heavily before giving some of the audio to America's Most Wanted. Here's former Tinley park mayor Ed Zabracki.

[Aaron Woolfolk]

And the general feeling was release everything we possibly can, except a couple things that would be unique to the killing that only the killer would know. And so they kept back some things from that Standpoint, but otherwise we released as much information as we could. Reason being is that the more information is out there, number one, the less rumors you have. And number two, the more likely you are to get people to help.

[Ben Bradley]

The hope was that someone who recognized the killer's voice or speech pattern would contact authorities. Whether anyone did that though, is something only the police would know. To this day, the 37 seconds of edited 911 audio remains on a webpage that the Tinley Park Police Department has dedicated to the Lane Bryant case. You can listen to it as many times as you want. However, back in March 2008, when America's most Wanted aired its segment, that was the first time any of the victims loved ones heard audio from the call. And ever since then, Michael Hudak and Tony Chuso, Carrie Chiuso's brother and her husband, have never been able to unhear it clearly.

[Aaron Woolfolk]

You can hear him screaming in there. He's obviously struggling with something. He's somebody's son, somebody's nephew, somebody's uncle. He's somebody's family member. I've listened to him tons of times.

[Ben Bradley]

Why did you listen?

[Aaron Woolfolk]

I wanted to see if I can hear.

[Rick Bruno]

If I can hear Carrie, like if I can hear Carrie or if just

[Aaron Woolfolk]

if I can hear anything.

[Ben Bradley]

Jennifer Bishop's sister, Michelle Talos, has listened to the audio numerous times too, and spirals on what it all means.

[Michelle Talos]

When the guy starts talking, he says, I'm losing it, I'm losing it. Nobody else has said that's what he's saying, but that's what I keep thinking I hear and that maybe that just makes sense to me because then he got so angry. Maybe he freaked out and got so upset that that's when he killed him. And he was really surprised that somebody was able to make a phone call. And so, you know, I think he did lose it. I always have this picture. My sister was a take charge kind of girl. And Maurice said, you know, his sister was the same way. And so I, I could see them all, you know, giving each other eye signals or something like, we're going to do this, we're going to, you know, do that and kind of fighting them till the end or whatever.

[Ben Bradley]

What's excruciating for the families is wondering what was likely going through the victims minds in their final moments.

[Michelle Talos]

Is this really happening to me? Is this going to happen? How do I get out of this for my kids, my family? How can I get back to them?

[Aaron Woolfolk]

I can't imagine what was running through her mind. From what I understand Their hands were bound with duct tape and so were their mouths were tied. So I don't know even if she got to say anything, if there was even an opportunity to.

[Ben Bradley]

Rhoda McFarlane's brother Maurice and her boyfriend Stewart believe Rhoda, the eldest of the victims, likely sensed the other women's collective fear. And that's why, even when she got the chance to escape, she didn't. She dialed 911.

[Stuart Gibbs]

Rhoda Cherise Hamilton McFarland was not leaving that store without them other women. It was talked that she could have ran out the back door, but Rhoda wasn't going nowhere without him. The kind of person she is, if I go, they go, too. That's just who she is. Can I play the tape to say that? Damn, I wish she could have got out and went to go seek help. I would get a chance to see you another day, but to go the way she went, you know, I just know how she is.

[Aaron Woolfolk]

That call meant a great deal. That at least started the ball rolling, so to speak. And I. You have to admire Ms. McFarland for doing that. She risked her life doing that and obviously was taken after that.

[Ben Bradley]

During my interview with former TPPD Commander Rick Bruno, I got a sense that the killer's words and actions during the 40 minutes or so he was with the victims still haunt him.

[Rick Bruno]

I thought, that's the enemy. This is who we're going to find. He is the bad guy.

[Ben Bradley]

As we sat together at his kitchen table, I couldn't help but notice that as he discussed the inside information of what he Knew about the 911 call and what the survivor had relayed to police about the offender's behavior during those 40 minutes, his expression began to change. I could tell he was thinking deeply about something, but trying hard not to show it. It was like he was back in 2008 all over again. Back to a moment of pause I suspected he hadn't thought about in a very long time. So I trusted my gut and I asked a simple question. Do you think that this shooter was from Tinley park or outside?

[Rick Bruno]

I don't know.

[Ben Bradley]

Do you have a thought? A hunch?

[Rick Bruno]

Only one.

[Ben Bradley]

Retired Tinley park police Commander Rick Bruno is convinced there's an important clue about the Lane Bryant killer hidden in the way he said one specific word.

[Rick Bruno]

I can tell you that he referred to the town as Tinley. And if you're from Des Moines, Iowa, and you come to Tinley park, you refer to it as Tinley Park. If you're from the area you might refer to it as Tinley. He said Tinley, and that kind of made me go, hmm.

[Ben Bradley]

It would make you think, maybe is he from a surrounding suburb?

[Rick Bruno]

Right.

[Ben Bradley]

And uses that sort of colloquial phrasing.

[Rick Bruno]

Right.

[Ben Bradley]

I suddenly understood exactly what Rick was saying, and it made total sense. During my investigation, I've spent a lot of time in Tinley park and other Chicago suburbs with two word names, places like Orland park and Homer Glen. And as someone who isn't native to Illinois, I almost always refer to these places by their full name. However, nearly all of the locals I spoke with didn't. People I interviewed in the city, in the northern suburbs, in the south suburbs, and everywhere in between often used abbreviated names like Tinley, Orland, or Homer whenever they referenced two word townships or villages. So when Rick told me how the offender referred to Tinley park, he said Tinley. It felt significant, especially when you consider the fact that the killer made such a seamless escape. Could he have been familiar with the traffic arteries that led out of Brookside Marketplace because he'd been there before or at least driven by on a regular basis?

[Rick Bruno]

I think he knew the area. I think he knew the store that he was going to hit. I don't think he just walked in without planning.

[Ben Bradley]

Do you think he would have had to have cased that plaza prior to this crime?

[Rick Bruno]

Yes.

[Ben Bradley]

Based on what I know, I tend to agree with Rick. Remember, the killer came to the store armed with a gun. He brought his own duct tape, and he posed as a delivery person to gain access to the store. It's that last part that stumps Erica Karstens. She was off work on the morning of the crime, but she knew Rhoda McFarland and the survivor. Well, not to mention the store's protocol for interacting with delivery drivers.

[Erica Karstens]

There was a back door because that's where we had to take out the garbage. If it was opened. We had to use a key to open it from the inside. The only time we really opened it was if there were deliveries, and they would buzz if there was a delivery. Very rarely the delivery.

[Ashley Flowers]

In the world of true crime, the real story isn't always in the headlines. It's in the evidence. I'm Brandi churchwell, host of 13Zero podcast, and I'm here to take you past the news cycle and straight into the courtroom. Every week, I'll break down the investigation, the prosecution, the defense, and everything that unfolds beyond the jury box. We'll examine every testimony, every exhibit, every and every hidden motive. Listen to 13th Juror. Wherever you get your podcast, it should

[Erica Karstens]

come through the front. If it was mail, they'd always come through the front. But it was like a special, like a delivery of, like, stuff for the store. It would always be in the back.

[Ben Bradley]

Same situation for the Sally's Beauty supply next door.

[Erica Karstens]

If we had our weekly restock shipment, those would go to the back because there was kind of a driveway passage in the back. That's where the trash was, and that's where our back delivery would come through. And that guy would typically just knock on the door.

[Ben Bradley]

According to Marie and Erica, there weren't many delivery drivers who serviced the plaza who employees didn't recognize.

[Erica Karstens]

There was definitely some people that we knew would be our repeaters, and we would usually know them by name. If they were new, they'd be like, oh, I'm taking over for so and so.

[Ben Bradley]

And even more interesting, Saturday morning deliveries were unheard of on weekly deliveries for your retailer, but also if you ever saw for the neighboring store. Were those ever occurring on Saturday mornings?

[Erica Karstens]

No. Yeah, almost never.

[Ben Bradley]

That would have been unusual even for another retailer in that plaza.

[Erica Karstens]

Exactly.

[Ben Bradley]

So that's why Erica can't figure out why her co workers would have let someone in that they didn't recognize on a day that getting a delivery would have been unusual. Maybe, like journalist Ben Bradley surmised, the killer really was just that good.

[Jenna Griffiths]

He's either lucky or good. Which is also scary, isn't it?

[Ben Bradley]

When I first visited Brookside Marketplace to get a better lay of the land and see the same routes the killer had taken, it was a busy Saturday morning. I've just arrived to the Brookside Marketplace place here in Tinley park and looking directly at the Super Target. And If I turn 180 degrees and look the opposite direction, about 100 to 200 yards away is the former site of the Lane Bryant store, which is in like another strip mall plaza. The first thing I noticed when I walked over to the former site of the Lane Bryant store was how close close the building is to a major thoroughfare called Harlem avenue and Interstate 80. I'm gonna walk to the back of the plaza where Lane Bryant was. Yeah, I don't know if you can hear that. Those are the sounds of the trucks. Not too much has changed since 2008. A few new stores have come in and additional out parcels or two have been built, but that's about it. You can actually walk back here. It's basically like a single road that, you know, like trucks and stuff would deliver to the Back of the stores, there's trees on the right, there's a chain link fence. I don't know if that fence was here in 2008, but there's a chain link fence. Some greenway, like just brush, really. There may be some water back there. And then immediately it's the highway and highway ramps. So somebody that's leaving this plaza could very easily go out the back of any of these stores, go over across this sort of small greenway ditch, and then out onto potentially a car or just onto the highway and, like, be out of sight within minutes. If the killer didn't leave on foot and had a vehicle or a getaway driver waiting in the shopping center, his pathways for escape were limited.

[Aaron Woolfolk]

There's only two exits and they're both on 191st street, one to the west and one to the east.

[Ben Bradley]

There's no other way to go. If he turned right out of the plaza's back access point and gone west onto 191st street, he would have been driving mostly city and residential roads. However, if he'd turned left onto 191st and gone east, he would have risked sitting at a traffic light at the intersection of 191st and Harlem Avenue. But that risk would have been worth it.

[Aaron Woolfolk]

Probably went out the east exit because almost immediately you make a left hand turn and you're an ieedi. And that's both a curse and a blessing. With that shopping center on one side, it draws people to it because it's easel access. On the other side, whether it's a murder or shoplifting, somebody could get out of there pretty quick.

[Stuart Gibbs]

You had every pathway in America to get to where you was going. You could have went to Memphis, you could have went to Iowa. You could have went to the south suburbs. All them highways that lead lead you right up out of there.

[Ben Bradley]

I've created an aerial map with notes on it of Brookside Marketplace and the surrounding streets as they appeared in 2008, which will help you visualize exactly what I'm talking about. It's on the blog post for this episode or available right now. If you're listening in the Crime Junkie Fan Club app, how exactly the offender got away from the crime scene so quickly and which road he traveled on are two big question marks in this case. But regardless of how he managed to pull off his getaway, the bigger question that still plagues a lot of people, including me, is if he was at all worried about acting fast and not being seen, why did he stay in the lane? Bryant store for as long as he did.

[Stuart Gibbs]

That's the part that's weird, is why you took out 40 minutes of your time to sit here with six women and then you try to murder them all. What were you doing there for 40 minutes?

[Erica Karstens]

You could have ran away. You could have ran away and left them all to go, and then you would have been fine. But instead you took their lives.

[Aaron Woolfolk]

I've always thought it was weird to me, I always felt like there was something more to the story.

[Ben Bradley]

The press couldn't help but pick up on the offender's puzzling behaviors too.

[Michelle Talos]

He shot five in the head, killing them, and left another for dead in what authorities say was a botched robbery that has shocked them.

[Jenna Griffiths]

This town, a women's clothing store at 10am on a Saturday doesn't have a ton of cash for you to rob. They said the motive initially robbery, but I find it hard to believe that the, the, the total motive behind this crime would be robbery. Something else has to be involved.

[Rick Bruno]

It was pretty obvious that it was more than just a stick up, but what was going through his mind, whether it started out to be more than that or just, you know, he started to get confident because, you know, he was in there, he felt powerful or whatever. I don't know. I don't know if we'll ever know.

[Ben Bradley]

A week or so into the investigation, the police learned that the offender had spent at least some of those 40 minutes he was in the store sexually fondling one of the victims, which was a detail that seemed really far out of left field for a robbery.

[Rick Bruno]

It surprised the FBI, too, because their people came out and, you know, had access to the information that we had and is like, this really doesn't fit anything. I don't know if he had mom issues or something like that, but that's why none of this made any sense.

[Stuart Gibbs]

I think he was deranged. He was crazy. You got to be one sick individual just to sit around conversating with somebody and then you go ahead and take them out.

[Erica Karstens]

I don't think someone that was just gonna rob a store is gonna line people up execution style. And that just seems excessive to, to me when he could have easily escaped.

[Rick Bruno]

Maybe somebody said something or did something that made him trigger.

[Ben Bradley]

In a formal press Release back in 2008, authorities emphasized that fondling was the extent of the perpetrator's sex assault. It didn't go beyond that. How they knew that, I have no idea. Presumably the survivor told them. And as far as which of the six women was fondled that's also never been released. What I can tell you is after the autopsies were done, Connie Woolfolk's family revealed, without being specific about why, that she'd put up one hell of a fight against the perpetrator. Here's Aaron Woolfolk, Connie's brother.

[Aaron Woolfolk]

They told her she fought back because she did have somebody's DNA up underneath her fingernail.

[Jenna Griffiths]

So I believe that that's what their belief was, that she fought back.

[Ben Bradley]

It's my understanding that one of the women was actually able to scratch him. Connie Woolfolk had some blood under her fingernails, and hopefully they can analyze that DNA and make a match. The Woolfolk family knew Connie's final act of defiance was important to the case, which is one of the reasons why they told reporters what they knew about her physical struggle with the offender.

[Jenna Griffiths]

My guess is she was thinking about her two kids. You know, she fought back. I mean, if no other women up

[Ben Bradley]

there fought back, I know my sister would fight back.

[Jenna Griffiths]

No doubt. No doubt.

[Ben Bradley]

Nine days after the murders, the woolfolks filed an emergency petition in Cook county chancery court to make sure that all evidence, including physical evidence, was preserved and protected. If Connie's sons ever wanted to seek civil litigation against Lane Bryant's parent company, this was a necessary step. On February 13, the family's petition was granted, which signaled to everyone that the Woolfolks, like Connie, were fighters. Now, here's what's super interesting to me. For years, Tinley park police have confirmed that they have DNA in this case. They've just never said where that DNA came from. Here's Michelle Talos, Jennifer Bishop's sister.

[Michelle Talos]

The police did were specifically saying, we do have DNA. We know we have DNA. And I'm like, well, how do you know? Well, we can't tell you.

[Ben Bradley]

It's logical to assume some of it likely came from Connie's fingernails, But it could have also come from somewhere else at the crime scene or even from the bindings on the victims. We just don't know. This is one of those things authorities have been very cagey about. My sources told me that in addition to DNA, police also have fingerprints and hair from the crime scene.

[Aaron Woolfolk]

But it showed up nowhere. Fingerprints showed up nowhere. They went through. I know they went through armed forces to see if they had them. I mean, this guy just didn't have a being.

[Jenna Griffiths]

We can assume that the person who did this has not committed any other crimes in the years leading up to it or after, because I'm told they have his DNA. So he would have popped.

[Ben Bradley]

So the forensic evidence the police have hasn't been linked to a known offender, but that was information that took months and even years to learn. In early 2008, investigators on the case had to work with what they had. And what they had were five victims and one very shaken up survivor whose lives had to be questioned as well as those closest to them.

[Jenna Griffiths]

Could this perp have been connected with the store in the past? Was there any relationship between he and possibly some of the employees that work there now?

[Stuart Gibbs]

I told them this boldly. If y' all think I done this, you know, say, man, lock me up. Let's go.

[Ben Bradley]

That's coming up on the next episode of Countercloth. Episode four, could it Be? Listen Right now, Every case file, interview and archive tells a piece of the truth. I'm Kylie Lowe, and on my podcast, Dark down east, original reporting is at

[Ashley Flowers]

the heart of every case I cover. I don't just retell crime stories, I investigate them.

[Ben Bradley]

I'm speaking with families, searching court records and piecing together the facts that have been overlooked and forgotten with time. The result? True crime storytelling that digs as deeply into a case as you do. You can listen to Dark down east wherever you get your podcasts.