Episode 4: Could It Be?

Summary

CounterClock – Episode 4: "Could It Be?"

Release Date: May 28, 2026
Host: Delia D'Ambra (Audiochuck)

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Episode Overview

Episode 4 of CounterClock's latest season dives deep into the aftermath of the 2008 Lane Bryant massacre in Tinley Park, Illinois, focusing on renewed investigative strategies, emotional ripple effects through victims' families, and an intensive exploration of multiple theories about the motive and perpetrator. Delia D’Ambra methodically unpacks police tactics—like high-profile public appeals—and scrutinizes the layers of each victim’s life to assess the plausibility of both personal and random motives. The episode also scrutinizes lingering suspicions around surviving witnesses and inside connections, and it closes with fresh revelations about one victim’s secret struggles and finances, setting the stage for the next episode.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Unconventional Police Tactics: The Moving Billboard

• Brian Yonker, Tinley Park local and advertising business owner, recounts Crime Stoppers’ 2008 initiative:
  • A semi truck displayed a giant, illuminated banner of the suspect’s composite sketch ("a 10 by 20 vinyl banner that's full color and then it also has lights," 01:57–02:15).
  • The vehicle targeted high-traffic areas to saturate Chicagoland with the suspect's image, in hopes of generating new leads.
  • The public reaction was dramatic—“People were taking pictures” (03:20)—but no viable suspects emerged.

2. The Community’s Response: Outpourings at Memorials

• Each of the slain women's families experienced immense support, but also discomfort from the overwhelming crowd sizes and security concerns.
  • Victor Rodriguez (Connie Woolfolk’s ex): "So much love. So much love." (04:19)
  • Tony (Carrie Chuso's husband) describes mourners in “freezing rain and snow … just to get a chance to, you know, pay the respects to her and share stories with her family about how much she'd helped them.” (05:03)
  • Erica Karstens (Jennifer Bishop’s sibling): "They kept the doors open until like, 9:30 because so many people were in line." (05:39)
  • Stuart Gibbs (Rhoda McFarland's boyfriend): “I stood on my feet for nine hours in front of a casket…over 10,000 people that walked through that church.” (05:57)

3. The Blurred Motive: Why Here, Why Them?

• Police and victims' families cast doubt on robbery as a motive:
  • Little was stolen, the perpetrator lingered for 40 minutes, one victim was fondled, and the executions appeared excessive and deliberate.
  • Erica Karstens: "I don't think someone that was just going to rob a store is going to line people up execution style." (07:17)
  • Law Enforcement: "Why would he go in? Was a sexual assault a reason? ... He came for a specific reason." (07:32)

4. Digging Into the Victims' Lives

• Investigators scrutinized every aspect of each victim’s history and relationships:
  • Jennifer Bishop: In town only for the weekend, unpredictable schedule, husband had a solid alibi. (08:42)
  • Sarah Safranski: No indicators of risk, family unaware she was shopping that day.
  • Carrie Chuso: No concerning ties from ex-boyfriend or her work with gang intervention (09:21–09:49).
• Authorities exhaustively vetted significant others with criminal backgrounds:
  • Victor Rodriguez: Forgery charge in past, but solid alibi.
  • Stuart Gibbs: Armed robbery conviction, ex-gang member.
  • Both men report feeling grilled and pre-judged but ultimately cleared:
    • Stuart: "If y'all think I done this...lock me up. I guarantee y’all would not be working." (12:23)

Notable Quote:
"They tried to break you down to the lowest common denominator to make you react to a person I once was... I'm no longer that person... I put myself because I want this killer to be... sought after and, you know, want some closure from this." — Stuart Gibbs (11:20)

5. Exploring the “Inside Job” Theory

• Lane Bryant staff, including current and former employees, were thoroughly interrogated to evaluate possible involvement:
  • Erica Karstens likens the process to "a really scary job interview" (14:16), noting repeated inquiries about her relationship to manager Rhoda and to the sole survivor.
  • Two part-time employees (Laura and Lori) who’d called off that weekend became of special interest, but police’s depth of investigation into their backgrounds remains unclear.
• Timing and method of entry at the store fueled speculation:
  • “Whoever let him inside was an employee with access to the secure back door." (17:52)
  • Erica Karstens: “We never opened [the back door] for like any random person, we had to use a key…" (18:05)
  • Suspicion around the survivor's minimal injuries:
    • Erica: "How is she grazed in the neck and he just let her go? It's just too weird..." (18:33)
    • Stuart: “I'm from the streets...you don't need no witnesses.” (19:06)

Host’s Investigation into the Survivor

• Delia reveals she traced the survivor—once under police protection, now living out of state.
• Despite suspicions, both host and investigators found "more evidence the survivor wasn't involved than...she was." (19:19)
  • Her survival was likely an accident—killer was distracted at the critical moment: "There was a sound or something that occurred in the store. And she moved her head...the bullet went [by] the side of her neck." (19:50)

The Pivotal Role of Rhoda McFarland

• Investigators fixate on Rhoda (store manager), who placed the 911 call, as the possible linchpin in any inside conspiracy.
  • Erica: “At the same time I almost felt like they were digging for some bad stuff about Rhoda.” (24:15)
  • Erica: “A lot of it got tied to her, and I was always wondering why." (24:48)
• However, as a victim, Rhoda’s involvement seems increasingly unlikely.

6. Uncovered Secrets: Rhoda McFarland’s Private Troubles

• Court records showed Rhoda was being sued for $5,200 in unpaid credit card debt, evading process servers weeks before her death. (26:23)
• She bought a brand new Lexus ES350 ($37,000) while struggling with debt (27:51).
  • Stuart Gibbs: "She had over a 700 credit score...her house was almost about paid off." (27:36)
  • Stuart Gibbs: “That woman was a pack rat…she confessed. I got stuff everywhere...My house is...I’m finna get a dumpster.” (29:21)
• Rhoda regularly loaned money to her mother.
  • Stuart: “I had to tell my mama, stop, I’m in a relationship now...Their family thought, you know, I was using her...it kind of hurt my feelings." (30:15)

Theories About Rhoda's Possible Motivation

• Delia notes police may have suspected Rhoda was involved due to her secret debt or to finance her lifestyle.
  • Erica: “Maybe it was an inside job.” (31:03)
• Those close to Rhoda reject these ideas, emphasizing her pride in the store and genuine care for staff and customers:
  • Erica: “She definitely took ownership of that store…Nothing ever…pinpointed me like, oh it was Rhoda that caused this.” (31:28)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Brian Yonker on the truck billboard:
  “If I was at a stoplight, their face would be, you know, their jaw would drop or they would look or people would point. People were taking pictures.” (03:20)

• Tony (Carrie Chuso’s husband) on funeral:
  "That was where we started our lives together. And that's where, you know, our lives together ended." (05:03)

• Erica Karstens on survivor suspicion:
  “How is she grazed in the neck and he just let her go? ...she was talking, she was calm, she collected. She was talking to me.” (18:33)

• Stuart Gibbs on being investigated:
  "They tried to break you down to the lowest common denominator to make you react to a person I once was... I want this killer to be... sought after... That's why I put myself [in the investigation], because I have nothing to hide." (11:20)

• Delia, narrating:
  “But the suggestion that Rhoda was somehow involved never quite made sense..." (31:08)
  "But there was another murky part of her history that was suspicious. Very suspicious." (31:45)

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Segment Timestamps

• 01:33–02:52: Introduction of the billboard truck campaign (Brian Yonker)
• 03:34–06:39: Memorial service accounts from victims' families
• 07:10–08:40: Debating motive; questioning random robbery theory
• 09:49–11:51: Investigations into partners/staff with criminal pasts; their interrogation experiences
• 13:38–15:38: Investigating Lane Bryant employees; theory about scheduled staff absences
• 17:52–19:45: Analysis of how the suspect entered; implications for inside involvement
• 19:45–21:00: Survival of the lone witness; examination of accident vs. intentional sparing
• 23:01–24:45: Host’s search for the survivor; privacy, protection, and dead-ends
• 26:23–30:43: Delia uncovers Rhoda’s financial/legal troubles and family dynamics
• 31:45–32:21: Tease for the next episode—further secrets in Rhoda’s past

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Episode Tone & Style

• Immersive, reflective, and meticulous—combining empathetic interviews with methodical examination of records and investigative dead ends.
• The host maintains a respectful but probing attitude, emphasizing both the emotional complexity and procedural difficulty of decades-old cases.

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Summary

Episode 4 situates the unsolved Lane Bryant shootings in all their complexity: the emotional aftermath, the relentless search for a motive, and the painstaking elimination of theorized suspects or co-conspirators. Police and host attempt to probe every conceivable angle—public tips, personal histories, employee backgrounds, and the cryptic circumstances of a survivor’s escape. In the process, the episode humanizes both suspects and victims, while dramatizing the frustration of seeking closure as crucial leads fade—or spiral into ambiguity. The discovery of surprising financial irregularities in Rhoda McFarland’s life further muddies the waters, hinting at deeper secrets still to be explored in the coming episode.

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Next time: Episode 5, "Bad Blood," promises to delve into "murky" territory involving Rhoda's church ties and past secrets.

Transcript

[Ashley Flowers]

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[Narrator / Host]

I'm gonna laugh.

[Ashley Flowers]

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[Narrator / Host]

I love that for you.

[Ashley Flowers]

It was just there calling to me.

[Law Enforcement / Investigator]

Where?

[Ashley Flowers]

On wix. I even built a whole website last night with its AI website builder WIX Harmony. But I was still in bed by 2:30, so you should be proud of me.

[Narrator / Host]

That was very responsible of you.

[Ashley Flowers]

You should try it too. Maybe I will just go to wix.com domains hi, I'm Ashley Flowers, creator and host of the number one true crime podcast Crime Junkie. Every Monday, me and my best friend Britt break down a new case, but not in the way you've heard before and not the cases you've heard before. You'll hear stories on Crime Junkie that haven't been told anywhere else. I'll tell you what you can do to help victims and their families get justice. Join us for new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday. Already waiting for you by searching for Crime Junkie. Wherever you listen to podcasts, this is episode four.

[Narrator / Host]

Could it be a quick note? If while listening to this season, you recognize any of the names or locations that are being discussed and have information you'd like to share, send me an [e-mail]. On a frigid Thursday evening, nearly three weeks after the murders in Tinley park, an unusual looking semi truck pulled onto the icy streets of downtown Chicago.

[Brian Yonker]

They wanted to focus on the train stations, people getting off the train from the suburbs. It was different than any other ad that we've ever done.

[Narrator / Host]

The truck wasn't hauling cargo or groceries, nor was it featuring an advertisement with a celebrity promoting a cologne or liquor brand. It was showcasing something far more eye catching. The composite sketch of the Lane Bryant shooting suspect.

[Brian Yonker]

Basically, it's a 10 by 20 vinyl banner that's full color and then it also has lights. Illuminated from the inside, the truck is unique in itself. There wasn't too many of them around at the time. We have the sketch of a person that was, you know, from the crime that it really drew a lot of attention.

[Narrator / Host]

That's Brian Yonker, a lifelong resident of Tinley park and the owner of a local advertising business there. Brian's bread and Butter back in 2008 was mobile billboards, lots of them. And about a month after the Lane Bryant murders, his phone rang.

[Brian Yonker]

At the time, we were contacted by Crime Stoppers. They asked if we would go in and try to get this out and put a picture, the sketch of the assailant on the truck and drive it around they were gonna try to target some areas through Chicago, and they wanted to draw attention to it to try to get the perpetrator's picture out there.

[Narrator / Host]

So for two weeks, Brian hauled the enlarged composite sketch of the suspected killer all over Chicago and beyond.

[Brian Yonker]

We could drive around anywhere and anywhere, day or night. A lot of the focus was here in Illinois. And we did go into Indiana, you know, on Route 30 and stuff. We did 80 and 65.

[Narrator / Host]

The unconventional approach to saturating communities outside of Tinley park with the suspect's likeness connected with the masses like. Like investigators had hoped it would.

[Brian Yonker]

I mean, it was probably the. The most viewed that I could remember viewed ad that we've ever had on a truck. If I was at a stoplight, their face would be, you know, their jaw would drop or they would look or people would point. People were taking pictures.

[Narrator / Host]

But no matter how many people saw the billboard, which promoted anonymity and at that time, a $60,000 reward, Tinley park police never identified the perpetrator. The wanted poster on wheels was yet another well intended effort by police to try and make progress in the investigation, but it didn't pay off. During that time, each of the five victims families held memorial services for the slain women, which drew not only media attention, but crowds. Victor Rodriguez, Connie Woolfolk's ex partner, remembers the overwhelming turnout at her service. The support was appreciated, but also a bit disconcerting. We recorded our conversation over the phone, which is why it sounds a bit garbled.

[Stuart Gibbs]

It was scheduled to be such a huge turnout because of how big, you know, how massive this case is. I think we even got security for the kids just in case. It was so many people. It was so much love. So much love.

[Narrator / Host]

Similarly, Carrie Chuso's loved ones told me that it wasn't until they opened the doors for her funeral that they realized just how many lives she'd touched, particularly through her job as a social worker at Homewood Flossmoor High School.

[Tony (Carrie Chuso's husband)]

Her students were her life. Like, if stuff happened, she had to see kids. She would stay later just for them.

[Narrator / Host]

I saw or read that the funeral was in the same church that you guys got married.

[Tony (Carrie Chuso's husband)]

It was really tough because that was where we started our lives together. And that's where, you know, our lives together ended. The lines were wrapped out and around the building and people were standing in freezing rain and snow and that. To just get a chance to, you know, pay the respects to her and share stories with her family about how much she'd helped them. So it was pretty mind Blowing. I was floored. I mean, I knew she was good and what she did, but I had no idea, you know, how many lives she'd had impacted.

[Narrator / Host]

In northern Indiana, Jennifer Bishop's family experienced a similar outpouring of support.

[Erica Karstens]

It was so packed. I think it was supposed to end at 7 and they kept the doors open until like, 9:30 because so many people were in line.

[Narrator / Host]

Rhoda McFarland's memorial service was also a large gathering. It took place at a church in Crest Hill, Illinois, where years earlier she'd served on staff.

[Stuart Gibbs]

I stood on my feet for nine hours in front of a casket hugging and shaking hands. And it had to be over 10,000 people that walked through that church.

[Narrator / Host]

Among the attendees at every service were officials from the village of Tinley park and members of law enforcement.

[Law Enforcement / Investigator]

I went to each wake and talked to the family, to all five of them. I remember going to one of the wakes and I got there about 6 or 6:30 and the line was all the way outside. And I waited in the line to go up and talk to him. And there's nothing you could have done. Not much you can say in something like that. But I thought it was important for us to make sure that we had a presence there.

[Narrator / Host]

The police's presence at the memorial served a twofold purpose. They felt a personal responsibility to the victims.

[Tony (Carrie Chuso's husband)]

We worked for those women, we worked for those families.

[Narrator / Host]

But they also saw the funerals as unique windows into the lives of the five women and those closest to them. By that point, so much about the crime wasn't adding up. Very little had been stolen from the store or the victims. One of the women had been fondled. The killer had stayed inside for 40 minutes. It all just felt, well, like it had nothing to do with money.

[Erica Karstens]

I don't think someone that was just

[Narrator / Host]

going to rob a store is going

[Erica Karstens]

to line people up execution style.

[Narrator / Host]

And that just seems excessive to me.

[Erica Karstens]

When he could have easily escaped, was

[Law Enforcement / Investigator]

he there, you know, for someone?

[Erica Karstens]

Maybe the 40 minutes many was waiting for someone to come in.

[Law Enforcement / Investigator]

Why did he pick that Lane Bryant store? Robbery does not make sense. Randomness doesn't make sense either. Why would he go in? Was a sexual assault a reason? I can't believe that would be either. There is an outside motivation. Something brought him there. He didn't drive into that shopping center and say, oh, look, there's a Lane Bryan store. I'm going to go into that store. That doesn't make sense. He came for a specific reason.

[Narrator / Host]

Village officials, the police, journalists, and even some of the victim's loved ones were wondered if that reason was personal.

[Tony (Carrie Chuso's husband)]

Did this person know any of these victims? Did they just happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time? Were they victims of random act of violence? I find that very strange.

[Narrator / Host]

To determine if the killer was a significant other or an enemy who'd followed one of the victims to the store, authorities dug into each of the women's lives, past and present. Right off the bat, it seemed unlikely Jennifer Bishop had been targeted. She was only in town for the weekend, her movements had been unpredictable the morning of the crime, and her husband had a rock solid alibi.

[Erica Karstens]

I was very proud that I had nothing negative to say at all about Brian. So, you know, I knew there was nothing from our side that would come of it.

[Narrator / Host]

Same situation with Sarah Safranski. Nothing in her background pointed to someone wanting to harm her. And what's more, her own family didn't even know she was going to go shopping at Lane Bryant that particular Saturday. According to Carrie Chuso's husband, Tony, she also traveled to Brookside Marketplace on a whim that morning as well. The only yellow flags that came up in her background was an ex boyfriend.

[Tony (Carrie Chuso's husband)]

They're like, do you ever see. Do you know this guy? Do you think he could have? And it was no.

[Narrator / Host]

And her longstanding involvement with gang intervention programs at YMCAs in the city.

[Tony (Carrie Chuso's husband)]

She did do gang intervention in Chicago. There was conversations and interviews, and that was all proven to be. You know, there are no ties to that whatsoever. I know they interviewed a bunch of the people and even all the contacts that my sister had through the YMCA and all that, and it was all proven to be nowhere. There was nobody that would have anything against her.

[Narrator / Host]

Former Tinley Park Police Commander Rick Bruno remembers that vetting each woman's life was time consuming and tedious, but it was work that had to be done.

[Tony (Carrie Chuso's husband)]

There was extensive interviews and extensive background investigations into the lives of the victims. Our investigators were trying to piece things together. It was like a big jigsaw puzzle, and most of the pieces were upside down, so they had to turn those over one at a time to see if they matched anything.

[Narrator / Host]

Among the puzzle pieces that investigators studied closely were the men in Connie woolfolk and Rhoda McFarlane's lives. Victor Rodriguez, Connie's former partner, had a solid alibi for the timeframe of the shootings. He was at home with his mother and two sons. And Stuart Gibbs, Rhoda's boyfriend, had been running errands in a different south suburb at the time of the crime.

[Stuart Gibbs]

I was at the bank. I was paying some bills.

[Narrator / Host]

But alibis aside, both guys had something else that investigators couldn't Felony records. Several years prior, Victor had been pinched for forgery, and Stewart had served time in prison for armed robbery. Not to mention, he was a reformed member of a notorious Chicago street gang, the Four Corner Hustlers.

[Stuart Gibbs]

I shared with Rhoda that I had a background. You know, I told her, you know what I'm saying? The person I was, I served time in prison. And I told her I was honest with her.

[Narrator / Host]

So it was because of their records that detectives grilled both men more intensely than others.

[Stuart Gibbs]

How our relationship wasn't good. Was it bad? Was it this Was that they were trying to tear my character. They tried to break you down to the lowest common denominator to make you react to a person I once was and which I shared with them. I'm no longer that person. Only reason why I volunteered because I want this killer to be, you know, saying sought after and, you know, want some closure from this. That's why I put myself, because I don't have nothing to hide.

[Narrator / Host]

When they were interrogating you, did they ask you if you knew anyone who looked like him or that you knew anyone that, like, maybe we don't think you did it, but did one of your buddies do it? That kind of thing?

[Stuart Gibbs]

Right when they looked at. Cause of, you know, my affiliation and all that. And I guess they looked at, you know, based upon. They got robbed, and I got an armed robbery on my background. I got, you know, whatever. Whatever on my background. So they trying to put the little jigsaw puzzle together to put, like, okay, well, you know, person of interest.

[Narrator / Host]

But Stewart held his ground.

[Stuart Gibbs]

I told them this boldly. If y' all think I done this, you know, say, man, lock me up. I said, but I guarantee y'.

[Law Enforcement / Investigator]

All.

[Stuart Gibbs]

Y' all would not be working. Y' all would be desk duty. Let's go.

[Narrator / Host]

Eventually, he and Victor were cleared of any suspicion. But unfortunately, as a result of being interrogated, Rhoda's family learned for the first time about Stewart's criminal history. And that caused them to distance themselves from him.

[Stuart Gibbs]

Rhoda protected me from them about my background. Cause of judgment. And at the time, you know what I'm saying, at the time, I said, man, I get it. It's your sister. I get it. You want to find answers with your sister. I get it. I said, but that's your sister. That was a part of my life. That was the person I was going to Be, you know, with for the rest of my life. That was my life partner.

[Narrator / Host]

But Stewart says his attempts to explain things to his girlfriend's family fell on deaf ears. A wedge had been driven and their relationship was never the same.

[Stuart Gibbs]

In one breath, you calling me your son in law and then another breath, you saying something else. That was a hurt moment for me.

[Narrator / Host]

While the lives of the victims were being sifted through, employees for Lane Bryant were also put under the microscope. Another theory that had to be considered was whether the crime involved a current or former employee or someone in their lives.

[Tony (Carrie Chuso's husband)]

Taking a look at everyone there, all the employees, some of these people just happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. But are any of the employees, you know, could this perp have been connected with the store in the past? Was there any relationship between he and possibly some of the employees that work there now?

[Narrator / Host]

No one could be ruled out until everyone who was connected to the store was interviewed. Here's Erica Karstens, a former employee.

[Erica Karstens]

It's almost like a really scary job interview. That's what I would compare it to because it's you with one or two officers and you're just sitting there, they're asking you like, where were you that day? Where were you the night before? Did anything look suspicious leading up to the events? Does this person with the sketch look familiar?

[Narrator / Host]

In addition to Rhoda letting erica have Saturday, February 2nd off, there were two other employees, part time workers who'd requested on Friday to be taken off the weekend schedule.

[Erica Karstens]

Could it have been someone that wasn't working yet and should have been there? Because people did call off? Was it one of them? And maybe they were looking for them and like, well, snap, I'm here, I may as well take care of business, you know, send a message, so to speak.

[Narrator / Host]

In an interview with CBS Chicago, years after the crime, the two workers who'd taken off only provided their first names, Laura and Lori. But they explained that a medical emergency for one of their children and a hair appointment for the other had kept them from picking up shifts on the day of the Lane Bryant killings. How thoroughly police explored these women's lives as part of the investigation is unclear. Unfortunately, Erica couldn't remember their last names. So I've had no luck tracking them down. But if Laurie or Laura are listening to this, please get in touch. I'd love to speak with you. Of the questions Erica remembers detectives asking her and her co workers, though two specific inquiries were repeated over and over.

[Erica Karstens]

What are your ties with Rhoda? What are your ties with the Survivor,

[Narrator / Host]

Rhoda and the Survivor. If the Inside Job theory had an axis of rotation by which everything else spun around, they were it.

[Erica Karstens]

For someone to come that early when we didn't have a lot of traffic was kind of like, okay, you either picked a time when there was nobody here or you were very deliberate on making sure it was certain people had to be there.

[Narrator / Host]

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[Ashley Flowers]

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[Narrator / Host]

Because police had gone on record stating the killer had arrived at the rear of the Lane Bryant pretending to be a delivery worker. That implied whoever let him inside was an employee with access to the secure back door.

[Erica Karstens]

We never opened it up for like any random person, we had to use a key to open it from the inside.

[Narrator / Host]

So the question had to be asked, had Rhoda or the survivor let the man in on purpose? Were either of them an accomplice to paramedic Don Palacek? It seemed odd, perhaps even suspicious, that the survivor had emerged from the massacre mostly unscathed. We spoke over the phone as well, which is why her audio sounds the way it does.

[Erica Karstens]

How is she? Grazed in the neck and he just let her go. It's just too weird how these other women were execution style and she wasn't. And the way she reacted, you know, she was fine, calm in the ambulance. To me, if something like that happened

[Narrator / Host]

to me, I would be a.

[Erica Karstens]

Excuse my French. I would be a mess. I don't even know if I'd be able to talk to witness something like that, you know, but she was talking, she was calm, she collected. She was talking to me.

[Narrator / Host]

Stuart Gibbs could never reconcile the survivor's good fortune either.

[Stuart Gibbs]

I'm from the streets. I'm reformed from the streets. And I always know when a person leave a scene or a crime or whatever the case may be. You don't need no witnesses.

[Narrator / Host]

As a part of my investigation, I looked at this piece of the puzzle closely, and what I found is that there's more evidence the survivor wasn't involved than there's evidence she was. Here's what I mean. It became clear after interviewing those close to the investigation, like Rick Bruno and Ed Zabracki, that the survivor making it out alive wasn't because the offender spared her life on purpose. Purpose. It was an accident.

[Tony (Carrie Chuso's husband)]

He definitely tried to take her out on the day of the crime when

[Law Enforcement / Investigator]

he was about to shoot her. There was a sound or something that occurred in the store. And she moved her head and fired and the bullet went the side of her neck.

[Tony (Carrie Chuso's husband)]

And then she played dead.

[Narrator / Host]

Something that seems to corroborate this scenario is a statement from a woman who came forward a few months after the murders. That witness told authorities that on the morning of the crime, in the exact window of time the killer was inside the store, she'd walked up to the front doors of Lane Bryant and grabbed one of the handles, but then at the last second decided not to go inside. She claimed that her change of heart wasn't because she'd seen anything untoward going on inside. She'd simply just changed her mind about going into that particular retailer that morning. But I think it's possible that her grabbing the door handle could have been what distracted the killer. Right as he was about to shoot the survivor.

[Law Enforcement / Investigator]

There was a sound or something that occurred in the store.

[Narrator / Host]

This woman who didn't go inside might also explain either of the mystery vehicles from the Target surveillance camera that were seen arriving at and then leaving the Lane Bryant Plaza around the time of the shootings. Of course, the one person who could clarify most, if not all, of this is the survivor For a few months after the crime, police had her in protective custody, but that fell off by the summer of 2008. Authorities have never revealed her identity, but it wasn't very hard for me to deduce who she is today. She's in her early 50s and to my knowledge, no longer lives in Illinois. I'm choosing not to use her name in this podcast because I want to respect her decision to remain anonymous. Journalists Michael Tarm and Erin Schmidt reported that In February of 2008, she was newly divorced and studying to be a nurse. She worked weekends at Lane Bryant and lived in the suburb of Mokena. So my search for her started there because I knew that I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't at least give her the opportunity to do an interview. I sifted through disconnected phone numbers, kickback email addresses, property records, traffic tickets, and court documents until eventually I found people who I believed were still alive in her extended family. And that information led me to a handful of addresses. Hey there. Sorry to bother you.

[Tony (Carrie Chuso's husband)]

Yes, she does.

[Narrator / Host]

The man you just heard identified himself to me as the survivor's former partner. We spoke on his doorstep for a few minutes, and I got straight to the point. I know what she went through was really difficult. I think she would have been about my age when it happened. Did it seem to impact her pretty heavily when you.

[Stuart Gibbs]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Host]

Were you guys together for a long time or a short time?

[Stuart Gibbs]

Short time.

[Narrator / Host]

As we chatted, the man eventually admitted that the survivor didn't actually live with him anymore. How long ago was it that you guys last were in contact?

[Stuart Gibbs]

It's been a while.

[Narrator / Host]

Been a while. Would you say about five years?

[Stuart Gibbs]

Yeah, something like that.

[Narrator / Host]

He didn't know where she was these days, but I didn't have to go very far to find someone who did. A woman at the house next door, which was registered to the survivor's mother, told me I was in the right place just at the wrong time. All right, so she said that. So that house definitely belongs to her mother. But that person, the woman, said that she won't be back for a while because she's out of state. The mom. I left a letter I wrote with the survivor's mother's tenant, but to date, I've not heard back from anyone. So that's where my line of inquiry into the survivor has stopped for now. Based on everything I've gathered, it's clear she was deemed more of an asset to police than a potential person of interest. I found nothing in my investigation that signals she had Enemies or anyone in her life with an ax to grind. And since Rhoda ended up murdered, it's unlikely she'd colluded with the killer either. But it was certainly noteworthy that out of all the victims, she was the only woman who'd managed to free herself from her bindings. That detail is something Erica Karstens remembers investigators were keenly interested in.

[Erica Karstens]

Nothing too, like, pushy to say, but at the same time, I almost felt like they were digging for some bad stuff about Rhoda. And that irked me at first because I was like, they're digging for information about Rhoda, and I get it, because she was the one that made the call. So I. I can see why they would follow that lead of, like, okay, she's the caller. We need to know, like, why. Why was she the one that made the call? Nobody else, not even a customer called first.

[Narrator / Host]

So you think maybe just following that line of thought, do you think maybe they were wondering if it was, like, an inside job?

[Erica Karstens]

Yes. Yes, 100%.

[Narrator / Host]

But then Rhoda is one of the murder victims.

[Erica Karstens]

Exactly. Yeah. That's why I was confused. All these different speculations came out. Was it her, was it this, Was it that? But it all circled around her. And I'm like, why would you circle around someone that was such a good person? Like, nothing she ever did was malicious. She never talked bad about anybody. Like, you could be the worst customer or the worst employee, but she never, A, let it show if you got annoyed, and B, she never would address it to that person or even anybody else. She never gossiped. She was such a positive person. So to see the spin of, maybe it was an inside job, maybe it was someone's significant other, maybe it was an example. A lot of it got tied to her, and I was always wondering why.

[Narrator / Host]

But the answer to that question is complicated because Rhoda, as it turns out, did have some secrets.

[Stuart Gibbs]

That's new information that you just shared.

[Ashley Flowers]

Take the next 12 seconds to unwind and enjoy relaxing music.

[Tony (Carrie Chuso's husband)]

Foreign.

[Ashley Flowers]

This ad break was brought to you by wix because we know running a business can be stressful. Creating a website shouldn't be. Learn [e-mail] harmony.

[Narrator / Host]

Leading up to Rhoda's murder, a series of things had been going on in her private life that few people, including some of her loved ones, did not know about. For example, at the end of November 2007. So about two months before the slayings, Chase bank had filed a lawsuit against Rhoda for failing to pay roughly $5,200 in credit card debt. Eleven separate times in December 2007, a process server had visited her home, but each time she either wasn't there or refused to answer the door. Handwritten notes on the court paperwork I found, state quote, neighbor confirmed good address and also that a green minivan parked in front of house belongs to defendant. Minivan in front of house on six attempts. Activity heard on five attempts. Someone peeked out eight different occasions. End quote. Why Rhoda was dodging creditors is unclear. Even more confounding, Stewart, her boyfriend of nearly two years, who was just a few months away from proposing to her, had no clue this was going on in her life. Was she ever, ever discussed anything about debt or any issues with concern about finances or money? No.

[Stuart Gibbs]

She was. From my eyes, she was pretty good with her finances. She had over a 700 credit score. You know, 750. She had over 750 credit score. Her house was almost about paid off.

[Narrator / Host]

I found a suit. Chase bank had filed a small claim suit against her for some credit card debt. It was about 5, $6,000 in credit card debt in Cook county court. And so that's why I kind of asked you about the finances, because I was just trying to figure out if she had ever complained about, like, debt collectors or anything like that. Stewart was puzzled by the revelation, especially because of what he shared next.

[Stuart Gibbs]

Why, no, she had bought a car.

[Narrator / Host]

What kind of car was her other car, Alexis?

[Stuart Gibbs]

It was a 07 ES300.

[Narrator / Host]

It's true. Probate court documents filed by Rhoda's mother after the murders show that there was a brand new Lexus ES350 sedan worth nearly $37,000 listed in Rhoda's assets. Stewart had even gone to the dealership to help her pick it up. At the time, he wasn't sure why Rhoda bought the car since she already had a green minivan that ran fine, but he figured she just wanted to splurge on something nice for herself. She'd also had no problem spending money on him either.

[Stuart Gibbs]

When I met her, I had a classic car. I had the car before I met her. And I know she had done some things, put a music system in the car. You know, she bought me a few

[Narrator / Host]

things on top of the car purchase. Stewart and Rhoda's brother Maurice both told me that Rhoda was, as they described it, a hoarder. She'd accumulated stuff in her house in Joliet, Illinois, to a fault.

[Stuart Gibbs]

That woman was a pack rat. She was a Hoarder. She would never allow me in her house. And I just drop her off and I'd go. I guess she was ashamed. One day she called me and told me. She was like, look, she confessed. I said, you know, I got stuff everywhere. And you stated that you was never born in the junkie house. And my house is, you know, I'm finna get a dumpster. I'm finna throw all this away. You a good man, and I'm not finna give up because of this. I think that's what made me respect her and love her even more.

[Narrator / Host]

I don't know if Rhoda's credit card debt was associated with that lifestyle, her gifts to Stuart, Alexis, or something else, but it's certainly strange financial behavior for someone to buy a luxury car the same year they have creditors hounding them. Not to mention, according to Stewart, Rhoda was also a regular source of income for her mother, Barbara.

[Stuart Gibbs]

Well, she needed money. You know, I went over there to Rhoda, and I remember Rhoda would share with me that, you know, I had to tell my mama, stop, I'm in a relationship now. I guess their family thought that, you know, I was using her for, you know, saying money and stuff because stuff she had bought me and stuff like that. It kind of hurt my feelings, you know, when they feel like they thinking I'm using her, you know, for this stuff. And it was further from the truth.

[Narrator / Host]

If detectives who were investigating the murders knew about these peculiarities with Rhoda's finances, that may be why they thought, as Erica Karstens explained, Rhoda could have been part of a greater plan to rob the store. She managed to perhaps make quick cash to fund her debts. Lifestyle, you fill in the blank.

[Erica Karstens]

Why was she the one that made the call? Nobody else. Maybe it was an inside job.

[Narrator / Host]

But the suggestion that Rhoda was somehow involved never quite made sense to Erica and Stuart. They both say she was too deeply invested in seeing the Lane Bryant location thrive and the employees she cherished so much stay safe than to allow for anything, especially a robbery, to happen.

[Erica Karstens]

She definitely took ownership of that store. She was very proud of that store. If she had a few hours to spare, sometimes she would come and stay and help out or pop in if we're really, really busy. She'd be like, oh, here, let me do this or help you out here. Nothing ever, like, pinpointed me like, oh, it was Rhoda that caused this, or I never put blame on her.

[Narrator / Host]

And by July 2008, it seemed that law enforcement had also let go of the the theory Rhoda was complicit in the crime. There just wasn't much evidence pointing in that direction. But there was another murky part of her history that was suspicious. Very suspicious.

[Erica Karstens]

She never let us know her past.

[Tony (Carrie Chuso's husband)]

There were some yellow flags.

[Stuart Gibbs]

They didn't have no other choice but to look into her more than others because of the, you know, the church. She was angry when I would hear about that. Church. People use church to do their devilish ways.

[Narrator / Host]

That's coming up next time in episode five, Bad Blood. Listen right now.

[Ashley Flowers]

Can you believe it? The business I'd been about to start lived in my head for two years. But last night I finally bought the domain on Wix. Took me 90 seconds and suddenly it was real. I even used WIX Harmony, wix's AI website builder, to create a full website in minutes. Didn't even have to stress about security, privacy, or any of that technical stuff. It all came included. That's two years of stalling. One night of progress. Don't wait like I did. Go to wix.com domains every case file,

[Narrator / Host]

interview and archive tells a piece of the truth. I'm Kylie Lowe, and on my podcast, Dark Down East. Original reporting is at the heart of every case I cover. I don't just retell crime stories, I investigate them. I'm speaking with families, searching court records and piecing together the facts that have been overlooked and forgotten with time. The result? True crime storytelling that digs as deeply into a case as you do. You can listen to Dark down east wherever you get your podcasts.