Episode 8: 18 Years

Summary

CounterClock – Episode 8: "18 Years" (Released: May 28, 2026)

Episode Overview

In this profound and emotional episode, host Delia D’Amba marks the 18th anniversary of the still-unsolved Lane Bryant murders in Tinley Park, Illinois—a brutal quintuple homicide that continues to haunt victims' families, law enforcement, and the local community. The episode examines why the crime remains unsolved, deconstructs the failures and limitations of the investigation, and gives voice to those most affected by the loss. Through a medley of survivor interviews, law enforcement perspectives, and personal reflections, Delia explores the frustration, grief, and resilience that endure nearly two decades after the tragedy.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Central Unanswered Question: Why That Lane Bryant?

• Major theme: The investigation keeps circling back to why the perpetrator targeted the Lane Bryant store specifically.
  • “Of the many questions…there's really just one inquiry that is perhaps the most central.” (00:30, Delia D’Amba)
• Former mayor, police, and victims' loved ones all point toward motive as the key to unlocking the case.
  • "Why did he pick that Lane Bryant store?" (01:40, Ed Zabracki)

Theories and Motives

• Was the crime random, or was someone targeted?
  • “Was he just there and was just on a bad thing? Or was he there for someone somewhere down the line?” (02:49, Aaron Woolfolk)
• Ongoing suspicion that the perpetrator may have known one or more of the victims.

---

Stalled Investigations & Law Enforcement Reflection

Key Law Enforcement Moments

• Former Tinley Park Police Chief Mike O’Connell was profoundly haunted by the unsolved case until his death.
  • “He took it very personally, and it was always on his mind." (04:51, Ed Zabracki)
• Multiple investigative efforts, including renewal of interest with updated composite sketches and collaboration with outside experts (the VDOC Society), failed to produce results.
  • “Nothing was off the table… I can't say that there were mistakes that were made. If we were to do this all over again, I think we would take the exact same steps that we took.” (15:23, Rick Bruno)

Frustration With Police Efforts and Communication

• Victims’ families describe feeling forgotten and left in the dark as years passed and investigative priorities shifted.
  • “They won't email us or let us know anything about it anymore, or even have a meeting and say, hey, we're out of our leads…” (10:55, Michelle Talos)
  • “I think right now they don't know where to go from here. Maybe hire somebody else… Maybe question the survivor again…” (13:08, Stuart Gibbs)
• Some families, such as Aaron Woolfolk and Michael Hudak, express empathy with police, accepting that they may have tried their best.
  • “I have to believe they've done everything they can…I've already forgiven and moved on…” (14:15, Michael Hudak)

---

The Community’s Grief and Coping

Personal Loss and Remembrance

• Intimate stories demonstrate how grief is woven into the daily lives of those left behind.
  • "I still have her picture up on the wall in my hallway. Our wedding picture. We never forget. My life, you know, is completely changed because of what he did..." (19:50, Tony Chuso)
  • “I feel like I'm protecting her by talking. I want to find the guy that did it and I want people to know who Jenny was…” (29:30, Michelle Talos)
  • Memorials, such as white crosses and a park bench, maintain the victims’ legacy in the community.
    • “You see sort of these little remembrances of them…more permanent things in the community for them, which I think is really remarkable.” (32:01, Amber)

Survivor’s Guilt and Community Bonding

• Employees and neighbors express survivor’s guilt and ongoing trauma.
  • "Like, I had almost like a survivor's guilt going. Like, I should have been there…So to kind of still keep it in my memory, I feel like I owe it to not just the survivor, but also all the families that were affected by it, too." (17:35, Erica Karstens)
  • An unexpected connection forms between survivors and victims’ families, highlighting community healing.
    • “What are the odds that you would be sitting in my chair and we would be talking about this…we became friends after that.” (19:16, Marie)

Ongoing Family Impact

• The loss continues to deeply affect children, partners, and siblings of the victims.
  • “The kids were so little that they just didn't, they weren't able to react like we adults. They didn't process it the same way…They still to this day miss their mother…” (27:22, Michelle Talos)
  • “The one thing about Connie … always positive, always just a real down to earth person … She was mama bear to like, especially all of my friends.” (28:37, Aaron Woolfolk)

---

Failure to Solve & Barriers to Justice

Key Challenges Identified

• Despite public appeals, large rewards ($100,000), and intensive investigation, the killer remains unidentified.
  • “If it wasn't something of this magnitude, someone had, like, they would have to say something. Someone would say something…Who does not say anything for $100,000?" (35:44, Tony Chuso)
• Theories persist that the killer may have died, explaining the lack of matches in DNA databases.
  • “The killer being deceased could be one explanation as to why he's not in state and federal DNA databases…” (07:46, Delia D’Amba)
• Some family members believe the key to the case lies with someone close to the perpetrator finally coming forward.
  • “What will solve this?...Someone who knows him that will finally say, you know what, enough's enough, I gotta say something to someone…” (33:01, Rick Bruno)

Calls for Action, Transparency, and Community Involvement

• Frustration over lack of transparency from Tinley Park Police and calls for the case to be given new eyes, possibly outside assistance.
  • “Please don't quit. Be open to new theories and keep working…be social about this. You know, do interviews, be on news…” (36:28, Michelle Talos)
  • “Don't close the case, and keep trying. You know, I mean, that's all that you can ask.” (36:40, Aaron Woolfolk)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Whenever we got together...He would always say, 'Ed, we're going to get that guy before I die.'...It really, really haunted him." — Ed Zabracki on Chief O’Connell (04:51)
• "I thought we'd have them by that evening...And then it stretched on and on." — Rick Bruno, former TPPD Commander (06:01)
• "I just don't like, you know, she's always been a part of my life, and she's always going to have a part of my heart, so I don't want to ever forget her." — Tony Chuso on his late wife Carrie (21:52)
• "The depth of the grief of these families…The hurt may lessen, but the scar will remain." — Ed Zabracki, re-reading his 2008 speech (36:57)
• "You never think you're gonna have an unsolved murder 18 years later with five women and their families who have no answers." — Ben Bradley, journalist (16:00)
• "Nothing was off the table...The best baseball players sometimes strike out." — Rick Bruno (15:23)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:30 | Delia frames the central question: Why was Lane Bryant targeted? | | 01:40 | First on-tape questions from Ed Zabracki about motive | | 04:51 | Chief O’Connell’s dedication and emotional burden | | 06:01 | Realization that the case wouldn't be solved quickly (Bruno, Bradley) | | 10:26 | Tony Chuso and Michelle Talos on lost police communication and hope | | 15:23 | Rick Bruno discusses the exhaustive steps law enforcement took | | 17:35 | Erica Karstens and Marie discuss survivor’s guilt and community memory | | 19:50 | Tony Chuso on personal grief and carrying the memory of his wife | | 27:22 | Michelle Talos on the impact of loss on siblings and children | | 29:30 | Families’ efforts to keep the victims’ stories alive in the media | | 33:01 | Rick Bruno on what might finally close the case | | 36:57 | Ed Zabracki reading his 2008 statement; “the scar will remain” |

---

Final Reflections

Delia D’Amba closes the episode with a plea to anyone who may hold critical information, urging them to come forward as family and community continue to seek justice. The episode is a moving meditation on loss, the complexities of criminal investigations, and the enduring importance of collective memory.

If you have information about the Lane Bryant case:
Contact Tinley Park Police at 708-444-5394 or email [e-mail].

---

CounterClock is an Audiochuck production hosted by Delia D’Amba. Next up: A bonus Q&A episode, with listener questions on the case.

Transcript

[Ashley Flowers]

Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers, creator and host of the number one true crime podcast Crime Junkie. Every Monday, me and my best friend Brit break down a new case, but not in the way you've heard before and not the cases you've heard before. You'll hear stories on Crime Junkie that haven't been told anywhere else. I'll tell you what you can do to help victims and their families get justice. Join us for new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday. Already waiting for you by searching for Crime Junkie wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Delia D'Amore]

This is episode 8, 18 years. A quick note before we get started. As always, at the end of this season, I'll be coming back in a few weeks with a bonus Q and A episode. So if you haven't made a list of all your burning questions about this case or jotted down that one aha moment or detail you'd like me to know about, get on it and send me an email to the show's inbox. Counterclockdiochuck.com I'm still following leads in this case, and if you're someone with a tip you think I should know about, make sure you email me by June 10th so I can read through all your submissions and try to address them in the bonus episode. And if you're listening to this, well after the deadline, you can still email me. I read messages even months later. I just won't be able to specifically cover it in the Q and A. All right, now onto the episode. Of the many questions, theories and potential persons of interest that have cycloned around the Lane Bryant murders for the past 18 years, there's really just one inquiry that is perhaps the most central.

[Ed Zabracki]

Why did he pick that Lane Bryant store?

[Delia D'Amore]

No matter how many different ways you look at the case, or how far you dive into each of the victims lives, it's the location of the crime that I find myself returning to over and over again. Especially when I visited Brookside Marketplace. There are cameras up now on some

[Amber]

of the exits, some of these doors in the back near the dumpsters and near the tree line. So clearly they've put security in over

[Delia D'Amore]

the last 17, 18 years.

[Amber]

It's just such a shame it wasn't here in 2008. You would never know being back here

[Delia D'Amore]

today what happened here. Here's former Tinley Park Mayor Ed Zabracki, retired TPPD Commander Rick Bruno, and victim Connie Woolfolk's brother Aaron.

[Ed Zabracki]

Something brought him there.

[Tony Chuso]

You got pieces.

[Ed Zabracki]

And there's just something that is not tying this together. I think once you find the motivation, all the pieces will come together.

[Rick Bruno]

What is the motive? I think if you get a motive, you can almost understand what makes the guy tick.

[Aaron Woolfolk]

I don't know if this thing was random. Was he just there and was just on a bad thing? Because there's a lot of bad people out here, right? Some people just go around doing bad things. We see it all the time, hear about it. Or was he there for someone somewhere down the line? It sounds as though maybe possibly he was there to see someone or someone, him and somebody who. Somebody there knew. He knew that he was going there for a particular person. And I think everybody else kind of got caught up in the mix.

[Delia D'Amore]

In late September 2008, almost eight months after the Lane Bryant store was boarded up and sealed off as a crime scene, FBI agents from the Chicago field office returned to the brick and mortar building to search it for additional clues. What or if they found anything useful is unclear, but they certainly deemed it necessary to circle back around to the plaza even that many months after the murders. Two months later, in November 2008, charming shops, lane Bryant's parent company, sent folks to the location, too. That crew took down the signage, leaving only a faint outline of letters above the store's entryway.

[Marie]

They took the letters down, but you can still see that it said Lane Bryant. And it's just that daily reminder of what happened.

[Delia D'Amore]

That's Marie, the employee at Sally Beauty Supply, who was an ear witness to the murders.

[Marie]

For a very long time. From like 2008 to 2013, we were us, and then like a nail salon. We're the only ones over on that side. And it was just very haunting.

[Delia D'Amore]

But perhaps no one was more haunted by the unsolved crime than Tinley Park's then police chief, Mike o'. Connell. Former mayor Ed Zabracki, who was close with the chief, told me that up until he passed away in May 2011, Mike carried the weight of the vexing quintuple homicide like a chain around his neck. On a regular basis, Mike, Ed, and the former commander of the south suburban Major Crimes task Force would get together, crowd around some beers, and discuss the confounding crime at length.

[Ed Zabracki]

Whenever we got together, we'd, you know, have a beer or something together. He would always say, ed, we're going to get that guy before I die. We're going to get that guy before I die. I remember him talking about that. It really, really haunted him. Mike was a very religious guy. I mean, he was a Catholic, and he, you know, he. He was a very straight guy and he played it by the book. And he says, we, we gotta get this guy. He took it very personally and it was always on his mind.

[Delia D'Amore]

In 2018, about seven years after Mike O' Connell's death, Tinley park police released a 3D rendering of the suspect composite sketch, which remains the most up to date image of the perpetrator. But even that getting renewed media attention didn't seem to move the needle in the case. The unanswered question I've had to come to terms with goes beyond just who is this guy? It's why has no one said, hey, I know who he is? It didn't happen in 2008 when memories were fresher, and it doesn't appear to be happening today, nearly two decades later. Here's former police commander Rick Bruno and Chicago journalist Ben Bradley.

[Rick Bruno]

I thought we'd have them by that evening and when we didn't, I thought we'd have them within the next couple of days. And then it stretched on and on.

[Ben Bradley]

We would do stories that it was, you know, one month later, nobody was arrested. And one year later and five years later and 10 years later, and I do remember going back for one of those stories and at the Tinley park police station, they, they had a room that was set aside years later where all the case files were out. And they said they still had full time detectives working the case and revisiting every lead. But it was also strange to see this entire horrendous murder compiled into one small meeting room. We don't know if a lead is in one of those file boxes. We don't know if somebody that police interviewed early on is the killer. We don't even know if the killer is still alive.

[Delia D'Amore]

And that suspicion that the killer could be dead and has been for years isn't an unfounded one.

[Ashley Flowers]

In the world of true crime, the real story isn't always in the headlines. It's in the evidence. I'm Brandi churchwell, host of 13Zero podcast, and I'm here to take you past the news cycle and straight into the courtroom. Every week, I'll break down the investigation, the prosecution, the defense, and everything that unfolds beyond the jury box. We'll examine every testimony, every exhibit, and every hidden motive. Listen to 13th Juror, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Delia D'Amore]

As I said in episode six, the killer being deceased could be one explanation as to why he's not in state and federal DNA databases. If he died shortly after the Lane Bryant murders and wasn't able to commit Another crime for which his DNA would likely have been taken. That could be why authorities haven't gotten a hit in nearly two decades. It's either that or he is still alive and he's been laying low, very low.

[Ben Bradley]

The person who did it has the most incentive to keep their mouth shut, and very often they don't. And that's how they get caught. This person has clearly kept their mouth shut.

[Delia D'Amore]

Over the years, the amount of resources dedicated to the case has ebbed and flowed. Longtime Tinley park resident Brian Yonker, whose company owned the billboard truck the suspect sketch was featured on, later became a village council member. He remembers the Lane Bryant case was always top of mind. It was always a line item, budget. In the budget, it was discussed where they would dedicate so many people towards this. And it was an actual line item

[Aaron Woolfolk]

in the budget for Police department.

[Delia D'Amore]

Former mayor Ed Zabracki remembers the same thing.

[Ed Zabracki]

I think we initially had two cops full time on it, if I remember correctly. And I think they were on it for about two years and then Mike changed them. And I think that occurred several times, not only within our department, but somewhere in the back of my cobwebs of my mind. It seems that either Mike or somebody after him brought in a different team.

[Delia D'Amore]

The different team Ed Zabraki is referring to is the VDOC Society, a nonprofit group of retired federal agents, criminalists, and forensic experts who help law enforcement agencies from all over the country review particularly puzzling unsolved crimes. In the fall of 2016, two investigators from the village's police department and a Will county state's attorney traveled to Pennsylvania and presented the Lane Bryant case to VDOX members. But if anything helpful came from that endeavor remains unclear. Just another avenue of investigation with potential that seemingly led nowhere. In 2021, TPPD claimed it had detectives assigned to the case full time. However, the investigators that were on it in 2021 were not the same ones who were said to be on it two years later in 2023, and so on. And with each transition, victims family members have noticed something happening, something that breaks their hearts in a whole new way. Here's a victim, Carrie Chuso's widower, Tony and Michelle Talos, who lost her sister Jennifer.

[Tony Chuso]

I was getting updates weekly, almost like daily weekly. You know, at the very beginning. And I was just waiting. I was waiting for that one phone call. I was excited. Like, I was like, okay, there's a survivor that means that something's gotta be done. Like, he. There's no way that he can get away with it. And then every once in a while, they would let me know, hey, I just want to let you know, we haven't given up. We're still working it. You know, we're still leads. Just something. I haven't heard anything.

[Michelle Talos]

They won't email us or let us know anything about it anymore, or even have a meeting and say, hey, we're out of our leads. Why is there such a. A minimal amount of caring for Michelle?

[Delia D'Amore]

The lack of responsiveness from police over the last few years has been frustrating.

[Michelle Talos]

This still happened in your town, and now it looks bad. You should care about your town, and you should care about what happened in your town. Sometimes I wish the police would just tell us everything because I wonder if that would give us more firepower to find the person out there who knows something.

[Delia D'Amore]

A day or so before my interview with Tony, he dropped by Tinley park police headquarters after receiving some information he felt authorities should know about. But the welcome he got wasn't quite as warm as he was expecting it to be.

[Tony Chuso]

I got a message from a former. Like, one of my former students, her mother. The mother messaged me on Facebook. She goes, hey, they're closing in on the Lane Bryant murder. Someone just told us who did it, and we reported it. Just wanted you to know. And then she sent me the picture of the guy with the composite, and to me, they look somewhat similar. So she said that she went there. I'm like, you know what? I'm going to go there, too, because I want to say something, and maybe they'll give me something. And so I went there, and I talked to the two new detectives, and it was really nothing. They didn't even take the name down. Like, I had to show them the picture. And they're like, okay, thanks, and we'll let you know. They gave me his business, he gave me his card, and that was it.

[Delia D'Amore]

After so many years of waiting, Tony and others, like store manager Rhoda McFarland's brother Maurice Hamilton, question whether the case should remain with the village's small police force.

[Tony Chuso]

Me personally, at the beginning, I think they dropped the ball because there was, like, from what I gathered from some of my friends who were police officers, they said that they reached out, Their departments reached out and said, hey, let us help. Let us do that. Like, you know, let us help. And I was told that Tinley park said, no, we got this.

[Stuart Gibbs]

Tinley park wasn't equipped because of the simple fact Tinley park knew that this was out the norm. They wasn't ready for it. I think right now they don't know where to go from here. Maybe hire somebody else to go through the files or see something that might perk their eyes up. Maybe question the survivor again to get her better. Maybe she can detail the sketch a little more. Maybe she can lead on a little more detailed.

[Tony Chuso]

They have so much evidence. How is there no movement? They need to start moving. They need to do something. It's like they have so much, but they have nothing. That's how I feel like if they have so much of this evidence, there should be something. But there's nothing. They have nothing.

[Delia D'Amore]

Connie Woolfolk's brother Aaron and Kerry's brother Michael have dealt with their frustrations with police differently than other victims. Loved ones.

[Aaron Woolfolk]

I'm not upset with them. I mean, nobody up there did it right. You know, I mean, I'm not. Not mad that they couldn't solve the case, just more angry at the person who did it.

[Michael Hudak]

I have to believe they've done everything they can because if I believe that they're not, then that's really disheartening and really makes you look at life even darker. So I have to believe they've done as much as they can. I've already forgiven and moved on because I can't to carry that. That hatred doesn't fix what's already been done. I'm a little harsher than I should be at times. I'm way more cynical than I should be. I don't know. I get, you know, I don't. Life's not fair and that's just the way it is.

[Delia D'Amore]

Retired TPPD commander Rick Bruno is woefully aware of his former department's dilemma and the ongoing frustrations felt by victims families. But he remains confident that the village did its best to solve the crime.

[Rick Bruno]

We contacted NASA just to see if they might have had a satellite overhead when this thing happened. I mean, I don't know if that's common knowledge, but I'm just giving you that to show you how far out we were thinking to get this guy. They said they didn't have a satellite above where it happened at that. But it was a shot, you know, it was, you know, what else can we think of? What else?

[Tony Chuso]

What would you.

[Rick Bruno]

Nothing was off the table, you know, I don't know. I mean, the best baseball players sometimes strike out. I can't say that there were mistakes that were made. If we were to do this all over again, I think we would take the exact same steps that we took. We really thought Somebody would come up, and a lot of people did, but not the right one.

[Delia D'Amore]

Yet as a seasoned journalist in Chicago, Ben Bradley, who was a young reporter when the Lane Bryant murders happened, understands the delicate position law enforcement has been in for the past 18 years.

[Ben Bradley]

You never think you're gonna have an unsolved murder 18 years later with five women and their families who have no answers. We're a long way from putting a composite sketch of a wanted person, you know, in a post office or even on the evening news. Police need to realize that they need to be part of the information ecostream, and they need to be willing to talk about cases and willing to talk about dead ends, because people like you are talking about them.

[Delia D'Amore]

As of this recording, no one who currently works for the Tinley Park Police Department has agreed to speak with me for this podcast. I wish it were different, but it's not. So much of me wishes I could sit in a room with detectives and present to them the leads. I've chased down, information I couldn't even necessarily put on this podcast. You know, everything about the sordid history and accessibility of the Tinley Park Mental Health center, the civil lawsuits I found related to Rhoda and Connie, my entire sidebar investigation into Raymond Maddox, not to mention the question still lingering surrounding Rhoda's church I'll come back to that a little later in the episode. For now, the infamous murders remain in a state of suspended animation, even though so many people whose lives the crime touched have had no choice but to move forward. Here's Erica Karstens and Marie, two former employees of Brookside Marketplace.

[Erica Karstens]

Like, I had almost like a survivor's guilt going. Like, I should have been there. I should have been there. So it was every day for a while, and then it got to be every month, and then it gets to be every year because it's on my birthday. So I get reminded with random texts from my old co workers or my dad's, like, hey, do you remember this happened? And so he kind of brings it up. Clearly, it's always going to be a part of my life. Like, no matter what, I can't just say it didn't happen, because that would be horrible. So to kind of still keep it in my memory, I feel like I owe it to not just the survivor, but also all the families that were affected by it, too.

[Marie]

I'm in a different state now. So, you know, I talk to people about it out here on the west coast and no one's heard about the case. When I bring it Up. Just the look on people's faces, like, oh, my God, that happened to you. And it's been so long that I'm, like, almost unfortunately, like, desensitized. But now bringing it up again and, like, talking about it, it's, like, surfacing, like, old, like, feelings.

[Delia D'Amore]

A particularly strong feeling of empathy Marie has is for Carrie Chiuso's husband, Tony. You see, after the murders, while working her second job at a barbershop in the south suburbs, the two of them came together in the most unexpected of ways.

[Marie]

I had this guy sit in my chair, and he was, you know, looking kind of sad, and he's like, yeah, I'm getting my hair cut because I'm going to a funeral. My wife was killed at Lane Bryant, and I was. Oh, my God. I was there that day. Like, I heard what happened.

[Tony Chuso]

A girl that cut my hair worked right next door at the Sally's, and she told me she was in the back. She was in her back warehouse when that happened. And she says it just sounded like shelves were falling.

[Marie]

We both kind of, like. I don't remember if we started crying or we definitely started tearing up or there was this moment of, what. What are the odds that you would be sitting in my chair and we would be talking about this, you know, and we became, like, kind of friends after that. You know, he became a regular to the salon and friends with all the girls that worked there. And he was just such an awesome guy, but it was just so insane just to have him sit in my chair. And then we could tell each other stories about the events and. Yeah,

[Delia D'Amore]

Tony has never escaped what this incident took from him.

[Tony Chuso]

I live right down the block from where we used to live, and I drive by the house still all the time. I still have her picture up on the wall in my hallway. Our wedding picture. We never forget. My life, you know, is completely changed because of what he did. The best part of my life was taken from me for what, you know? And ever since that day, my life was. My life has been one crazy thing after the other. I've lost touch with so many people, so many great people, you know, and it's. And it's my doing because I. I feel, you know, like, it's a reminder, you know, of her and, like, what would my life be like if that never happened? Ever since that day, my life just. It hasn't been the same. I continued going to school, and I was in the process of going to school to be a teacher. And after she died, I continued that, and now I'm a teacher. And I. I do that because of her. I did. I did this because of her. And I hope that I'm doing her proud by how I present myself, how I do, how I teach. You know, those kids are my kids. You know, I don't have any kids. We didn't have any kids. That's. Those are, you know, my kids.

[Delia D'Amore]

Even though Tony has since gone on to remarry, his current partner supports the poignant ways in which he remembers his late wife.

[Tony Chuso]

She has the same compassion, the same love as Carrie. It's just. It's amazing.

[Delia D'Amore]

Tony and Carrie's wedding photo, which still hangs in his hallway, is something his current spouse blesses. He walked me past it during our interview.

[Tony Chuso]

She was 30. I was 29, I believe.

[Delia D'Amore]

He also readily handed me a DVD of their wedding video, which he has dozens of extra copies of. On a bookshelf. There's a handmade album full of photos chronicling the years he and Carrie shared together. Did she make this?

[Tony Chuso]

She. I think she made this. Yes. I did not.

[Delia D'Amore]

Why have you held onto these? What's important to you about holding onto these?

[Tony Chuso]

I just don't like, you know, she's always been a part of my life, and she's always going to have a part of my heart, so I don't want to ever forget her.

[Delia D'Amore]

When he grabbed their wedding album and flipped through the glossy pages of their first night as husband and wife, even more memories came pouring out.

[Tony Chuso]

We didn't stay at a hotel. We stayed at her house for the first night, and we had a limo take us home. So we get home, and like I said, we were smokers, and we ran out of cigarettes. She goes, can you go get cigarettes? So I had to drive to the speedway here, which is shocking, the speedway. And I went and got a cigarette, and I came back and I walked in and she's out on the back deck dancing in her wedding dress. It was awesome. It was pretty. Like, I just. I always smile and laugh every time I think about the times that we had.

[Delia D'Amore]

For Carrie's brother, Michael Hudak, she was memorialized in a unique way. Almost immediately, the day after the Lane Bryant shootings, his wife, who was pregnant at the time, went into labor.

[Michael Hudak]

My wife Jennifer, was talking to my sister Kerry the night before, and I think they were talking about going into labor. And, you know, it's getting close because Jennifer's due date was getting close to that time frame. My sister said, there's not enough carries in the world. Of course, with all the stress and everything the doctors induced Jennifer to get the baby out because it was, you know, so much going on. When the doctor said, what do you want to name her? I think we both said Carrie at the same time.

[Delia D'Amore]

In the years right after the crime, other loved ones, like Jennifer Bishop's sister, Michelle Talos, found herself inexplicably drawn to Brookside Marketplace. She regularly drove from Indiana, pulled into a parking space in front of the Lane Bryant storefront, and stared into the darkened windows, hoping that somewhere in the recesses of the empty building, Jennifer would speak to her and that maybe the darkness held some answers.

[Michelle Talos]

And I just remember trying to feel her just sitting in silence. And then. And then I cried. I felt like she was there still kind of in some way. And every time I went back, I would actually be kind of excited to go just to have that moment with her somehow. Honestly, I would sit there and think how I could have saved her.

[Delia D'Amore]

When I met Michelle at her home last year, she pulled out her laptop and clicked through images from all the trips she's taken to Tinley park over the years.

[Amber]

Is this at the Lane Bryant store?

[Michelle Talos]

Yeah, this is the Lane Bryant store.

[Amber]

So those are flowers tucked into the.

[Michelle Talos]

That was the first time I went. We put the roses in there.

[Amber]

Go back to the picture.

[Michelle Talos]

And that's the door, too.

[Delia D'Amore]

Is there chains on that door?

[Michelle Talos]

Yes.

[Delia D'Amore]

Did you almost feel like, in a

[Amber]

way, like, the crosses and the stuff

[Delia D'Amore]

that went up, like it almost was like a.

[Amber]

Like a burial, like.

[Michelle Talos]

Yeah. I mean, I thought it was great. There was even a guy that carried a wooden cross across the parking lot, like, every day for a year. It meant a lot to me that he did that. Just the resilience I felt from the community, the love from people I didn't even know, was amazing.

[Delia D'Amore]

For Tony Chu, so returning to the store where his wife was killed was out of the question.

[Tony Chuso]

It took me a while to go back into that shopping center to this day. And I will never step foot into that building. Even though it's now a TJ's Max, I'll never step foot in that building.

[Delia D'Amore]

The neutral zone for many families was a median in the parking lot, where for a long time, the five white crosses stood with each woman's name on them. That spot is where, year after year, folks gathered on the anniversary of the shootings to remember each victim.

[Michelle Talos]

I met Maurice, who was Rhoda's brother, and Sarah's mom and dad were there. We did hug, and we prayed together in front of the store. We ended up doing that every year. Until it became TJ Maxx. So five or six years, I think we met and then Maurice and I really bonded. And then we would go out to breakfast afterwards at the Cracker Barrel. At one point I talked to somebody from everybody's family and honestly I loved it because our girls, you know, I'm sure they bonded together in the 40 minutes or whatever of that tragedy. But, you know, I'd like to think that then they all went up to heaven together and that that was something special.

[Delia D'Amore]

Michelle clings to her personal belief that her sister is in a better place. She also routinely revisits a moment in time the Tuesday before the murders when it was Jennifer's birthday and her entire family got together to celebrate. Usually the group didn't take photos at stuff like that, but for some reason that particular gathering they did. And it's those pictures that Michelle cherishes

[Michelle Talos]

the most as a family. My family, her family, and my mom and dad got together and had dinner at a restaurant. We actually took pictures. And now I look back on it and I'm like, it was like God gave us this moment to kind of say goodbye and say I love you one more time.

[Delia D'Amore]

But with every high, there's always a low. And for Michelle, the greatest low has been watching her niece and nephews navigate the world without Jennifer.

[Michelle Talos]

The kids were so little that they just didn't, they weren't able to react like we adults. They didn't process it the same way we did. They still to this day miss their mother and wonder what it would have been like, you know, if she was still here. But good things have happened to all of us. Still, life does go on. God has lots of grace and I've felt that every step of the way.

[Delia D'Amore]

37 year old Connie Woolfolk, a single mom, left behind kids as well. Two sons, the eldest just 16 and the youngest elementary school age. Today they're both adults and living on their own. But according to Connie's brother Aaron, the impact of their mom's death has never really gone away.

[Aaron Woolfolk]

Took it pretty hard. Yeah, I don't think they ever really got over it. You know, I could see it. You know, they still struggle with that. You know, their dad is 50, 50 in their life. You know, I could see, I could see the struggles.

[Delia D'Amore]

Like his nephews, Aaron has missed his sister's presence too. Through every season of life, he wishes she could have been there to love on his kids laugh with their family and set everyone straight, which was Connie's own form of affection.

[Aaron Woolfolk]

The one thing about Connie that I think most people would probably miss about her is that her energy, always positive, always just a real down to earth person who, you know, kept everything 100 with you, right? They told you the truth about things. She was always somebody's mother. She was always acting like somebody's mom. She was mama bear to like, especially all of my friends.

[Delia D'Amore]

For most of the 2010s, television and newspaper stories about the murders quieted down. There were anniversary pieces here and there, but not much as far as major updates. So folks like Michelle talos and Rhoda McFarland's brother Maurice Hamilton, took it upon themselves during those years to speak to the media and make sure their sisters stories, along with the rest of the other Lane Bryant victims were not forgotten.

[Michelle Talos]

I feel like I'm protecting her by talking. I want to find the guy that did it and I want people to know who Jenny was over and over again that she had a lot to contribute to this world. That, you know, it's a ripple effect.

[Stuart Gibbs]

You grew up watching stuff like this on tv and then when you actually see it and you live it, it's a whole different world. The media attention, if it brings attention to the case, I'm for it.

[Michelle Talos]

The point is, is that every single one of those women had positive impacts on their families and their community. The community should be pissed off because they lost good people.

[Delia D'Amore]

Someone else who is painfully aware of what good people were lost is, is Stuart Gibbs, Rhoda MacFarlane's boyfriend. In the years since the crime, he's never gotten over losing the woman who he says was the love of his life.

[Stuart Gibbs]

After all, my growing up from a young man to a man and all the foolishness that whatever I. To reach the point of life, my life, to meet someone that captures your heart and just like you know, it's going to be me and you forever.

[Delia D'Amore]

To this day, Stewart has never married. He told me that if he can't have Rhoda, he'll settle for the next best thing. Peace.

[Stuart Gibbs]

I'm hoping and optimistic that it would be found out so I could be at rest. I just want closure. It's a part of my heart that still, you know what I'm saying? It's not healed.

[Delia D'Amore]

In the aftermath of the murders, Sarah Safranski's community grieved her death in their own ways too. And eventually they honored her memory with a bench in Tinley Park. I stopped by to check it out during one of my production trips.

[Amber]

It's really sweet. So the bench says, an angel among us, Sara Szafranski. It's here in James Jess Park. There are a couple other benches I've seen in the park similar to this. Just have other sort of in memory and honor of folks in there. But yeah, this just I think goes to show you the impact that this crime had on the community and the ways that the victims lives and legacies are still echoed today. You see sort of these little remembrances of them. Initially it was the five white crosses at the shopping plaza. Those eventually went away, but then you've kind of seen some more permanent things in the community for them, which I think is really remarkable.

[Delia D'Amore]

If there's one suspicion that some of these families as well as so many other people I spoke with have discussed until they're blue in the face, it's the key to catching the killer lies in the hands of someone who was or still is close with the offender.

[Ashley Flowers]

In the world of true crime, the real story isn't always in the headlines. It's in the evidence. I'm Brandi churchwell, host of 13Zero podcast and I'm here to take you past the news cycle and straight into the courtroom. Every week I'll break down the investigation, the prosecution, the defense and everything that unfolds beyond the jury box. We'll examine every testimony, every exhibit and every hidden motive. Listen to 13th Juror, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Delia D'Amore]

What do you think will solve this

[Erica Karstens]

if you had to?

[Rick Bruno]

Someone who knows him that will finally say, you know what, enough's enough, I gotta say something to someone or he does something to anger somebody or a relationship ends or he says something to somebody.

[Marie]

Someone has to know who this person is and be able to identify him. And it's just wild that no one has come forward yet.

[Michelle Talos]

Somebody definitely knows who, who he is. So I know I definitely know somebody knows who he is. And what can I say to make you tell on him? I'm sure you're scared, but it's time to be over all that.

[Delia D'Amore]

That's especially true for people who knew Lane Bryant's manager, Rhoda McFarland. The shadow of everything that went down between her and her former church and suspicions about some of the people in the congregations still looms large. Her brother Maurice knows that particular chapter of her life was ugly all around.

[Stuart Gibbs]

You build a friendship or trust with somebody and all of a sudden, you know, you get shattered by it. So yeah, she was hurt when she told you she was hurt. She wouldn't have told her family she was hurt. Maybe a friend or something, but she was Always protective of her, her family. She wasn't the type of person that owed grudges or vendettas or anything like

[Delia D'Amore]

that, but her boyfriend Stewart, doubts that the people from Rhoda's past held her same posture.

[Amber]

Do you think that anything that could be associated with that church or anyone in that church could be connected to what happened to Rhoda?

[Stuart Gibbs]

I'm finna go from. I'm gonna shift my mind into another form. Maybe, you know, they was after her

[Delia D'Amore]

and I get it. It's hard not to make that leap. There are so many questions I still have about Rhoda's former church, the congregants, and what exactly was going on with that institution. Which is why I want to hear from you if you ever attended or were involved with Embassy Christian center in Crest Hill, Illinois, or Embassy Nation Network in Austin, Texas, particularly during the early 2000s. I know there are some of you still out there, so please reach out. And look, I know you'd be doing so with potential risk to yourself, because I'm no fool. I know that if this wasn't just a robbery gone wrong, there's probably something bigger at play here. Especially considering the fact that to date, the reward for information in the Lane Bryant case is still sitting at 100 grand and no one has claimed it. Here's Tony Chuso again.

[Tony Chuso]

Something this magnitude. That's why I think he's done it before. Because if it. If it wasn't something of this magnitude, someone had, like, they would have to say something. Someone would say something. Most crimes I see, it's 10,000. This was 100,000. Who does not say anything for 100,000?

[Delia D'Amore]

I'm convinced that the saying money talks isn't going to cut it with this case. It's going to take all of us, including those wearing a badge, to find the truth.

[Amber]

What's your message to Tinley Park Police Department now?

[Tony Chuso]

I mean, I don't stop until you find who did this, because I want to know. We deserve to know. The rest of the families deserve to know.

[Michelle Talos]

Please don't quit. Be open to new theories and keep working. Tips that are coming in. Be social about this. You know, do interviews, be on news

[Aaron Woolfolk]

shows, don't close the case, and keep trying. You know, I mean, that's all that you can ask.

[Delia D'Amore]

During my interview with former Mayor Ed Zabraki, I asked him to read a statement he gave at a community gathering back in 2008 in Tinley park when the impact of the crime was still fresh.

[Ed Zabracki]

The depth of the grief of these families and what they are going through and will continue to go through cannot be imagined. All of us offer them our sympathy, our compassion, our tears and our prayers. The hurt may lessen, but the scar will remain.

[Delia D'Amore]

The words were just letters on a page all these years later, but for Ed, they were a reminder of a reality that has remained frozen in time.

[Ed Zabracki]

Looking at that, I do recall it and what do you say? You know, those scars are still there and the scars are still in Tinley Park. That still is a scar.

[Delia D'Amore]

If you believe you have important information that law enforcement should know about, please call the Tinley Park Police Department's Lane bryant hotline at 708-444-5394 or you can email them at lanebryant [e-mail]. Thank you all so much for listening to this season. It's been more than a year since I decided to take on this case, and I'm really grateful you've made it to the end. The amount of material, records and interviews that went into putting this story together was was huge. And I couldn't have done it without the patience and participation of the victim's loved ones who spoke with me, as well as so many people who live and work in Tinley park and the greater Chicago suburbs. The team at Audio Chuck was also an incredible help and I'm looking forward to returning in a few weeks with the Q and A episode. So send me your emails counterclockdiochuk.com and I'll be back soon. Counterclock is an Audio Chuck production. Research and reporting was done by me, Delia d'.

[Amber]

Amber.

[Delia D'Amore]

The show is executive produced by Ashley Flowers. We think Chuck would approve. Every case file, interview and archive tells a piece of the truth. I'm Kylie Lowe and on my podcast, Dark Down East. Original reporting is at the heart of

[Ashley Flowers]

every case I cover. I don't just retell crime stories, I investigate them.

[Delia D'Amore]

I'm speaking with families, searching court records and piecing together the facts that have been overlooked and forgotten with time.

[Ashley Flowers]

The result?

[Delia D'Amore]

True crime storytelling that digs as deeply into a case as you do. You can listen to Dark down east wherever you get your podcasts.