← CounterClock
CounterClock
Ep 11 of 11: Jam-packed
00:49:22
The defendants in the CounterClock Season 7 case were back in court for a highly-anticipated evidentiary hearing January 6th - January 24th, 2025, in Winston-Salem, NC. Delia attended in-person several days to bring you all the updates, plus the brand new interviews from people connected to the defendants, case and victim.
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- [00:01]
Delia D'Ambra
Hey everyone, it's Delia D'Ambra and I've got an exciting reminder to share. My friends over at Crime Junkie are hitting the road for a live tour in less than a month and there are a couple of stops right here near me in Florida. Host Ashley Flowers and her best friend Britt will be diving into a brand new case, sharing exclusive behind the scenes looks into their investigation and bringing their storytelling out from behind the mic to the stage. Tickets are selling fast, so if you're in Florida or anywhere near one of the many stops for this nationwide tour, you won't want to miss this. Head over to crimejunkiepodcast.com and grab your tickets today.
- [00:43]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
Now streaming on Hulu. A wicked true crime. It was a kidnapping torture case.
- [00:49]
Delia D'Ambra
A crime of greed and cruelty. The men tortured the victim by beating, tasing and burning him.
- [00:54]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
But it didn't end there. And this is where it gets really horrible. The guy was cutting off my roommate's heat. It was like a bad dream.
- [01:03]
Delia D'Ambra
This crime was horrific.
- [01:04]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
He's a psychopath. Wicked game. Devil in the desert.
- [01:08]
Delia D'Ambra
This was a story about greed, sadism, evil.
- [01:11]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
Now streaming only on Hulu.
- [01:14]
I see you looking, looking at me.
- [01:17]
Wanda Sykes
Hey, what's up? It's Wanda Sykes. I'm here to remind you about something super important. Getting your breast screened. Because trust me, your breast health should be a priority. Early detection for breast cancer can change the game. Which is why you should visit YourAttentionPlease.com to learn more. And do me a favor, if you've already had a breast cancer screening, remind your friends and family to visit YourAttentionPlease.com too. We gotta look out for our girls.
- [01:46]
Unknown (possibly an advertisement voice)
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- [02:22]
Delia D'Ambra
It's been 22 years and nearly three months since 61 year old Nathaniel Jones was attacked and killed in his carport in Winston Salem, North Carolina just steps from his front door.
- [02:32]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
I need an ambulance quickly to 9:05 Arabia.
- [02:35]
Delia D'Ambra
Tying up, robbing and killing Jones. It's also been about the same amount of time that brothers Rayshawn Banner and Nathaniel Cawthon along with their three friends Christopher Bryant, Jermall Tolliver and Darrell Brayboy have worn the moniker murderers. But if there's one thing you might have taken away from listening to season seven, it's this. There are two very different camps when it comes to the guilt or innocence of these men who at the time of the crime were not men. They were 14 and 15 years old.
- [03:05]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
These were children. They were children.
- [03:09]
Delia D'Ambra
In March of 2024, a Forsyth County Superior Court judge named Robert Brody ordered an evidentiary hearing in the case so that he could consider Rashawn, Nathaniel, Jermal and Christopher's motions for appropriate relief, which are documents that argue they should get new trials or have their charges dismissed because their initial confessions were coerced, new DNA testing points to someone else, and the only witness against them has recanted.
- [03:34]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
This is recorded interview with Jessica Joanna Black.
- [03:41]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
Everything I said on the stand, I.
- [03:43]
Delia D'Ambra
Can tell you then anybody, all that shit's not true.
- [03:47]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
But I said what I said because I was scared to death. I was getting charged and going to jail.
- [03:53]
Delia D'Ambra
On January 6, 2025, the stage was set and the evidentiary hearing got underway. Part of the group known as the Winst Salem Five are seeking exoneration. Over the course of several weeks, witnesses testified, giving Judge Brody a wealth of information and new evidence to consider. In this episode, I'm going to walk you through the highs and lows whose testimony was the most compelling, and you'll hear brand new interviews from a few folks I tracked down while I was in town for the hearing.
- [04:22]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
When I was there, Rayshawn was there on the couch, asleep.
- [04:26]
Wanda Sykes
He didn't have two cleaners.
- [04:27]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
It was.
- [04:28]
Wanda Sykes
I was just cleaning his house.
- [04:30]
Delia D'Ambra
This is Counterclock Season 7 Jam packed. I'm your host, Delia D'Ambra. Throughout this episode, you won't hear audio clips of the actual court proceeding because even though the Forsyth county courthouse is capable of capturing video and audio, the chief Superior court judge in charge of things declined audiochuck's written request to record with our own equipment or have a recording of the evidentiary hearing provided to us by courthouse staff. That was a bummer, but I still attended in person several days anyway, because how could I not every day I was there? The courtroom was jam packed with Mr. Jones, family and friends, as well as supporters of Rashaun, Nathaniel, Christopher and Jamal. And speaking of Christopher and Jamal, they were there, too. They've been out of prison since 2017, so they sat with the general public. Rayshawn and Nathaniel were brought in from their respective prisons and sat shackled next to Christine Muma, Brad Bannon and Mark Rabel. The three defense attorneys you heard from throughout season seven, two assistant district attorneys for Forsyth county named Ben White and Mark Parent represented the state. The DA's office never responded to my request for comment prior to the evidentiary hearing and I haven't heard anything from them as of this recording. But Ben, Mark, if you or your boss Jim O'Neill are listening, my invitation still stands. It's important to know that in a post conviction evidentiary hearing like this, nothing goes how it normally would. In a criminal trial, there was no jury, only Judge Brody, and in this situation, the burden of proof was on the defendants to present evidence and testimony that supported several claims of relief that they listed in their motions for appropriate relief, also known as Mars. One of those claims is that since the time of the original trials, new evidence has been discovered that was not known. This includes Jessica Black's recantation, the discovery of a dominant female DNA profile on a piece of black string intertwined with the tape used to bind Mr. Jones, and new psychological research about false confessions, as well as new standards for interpreting footwear evidence. Another claim all the defendants are making is that each of their original trial attorneys were ineffective for failing to retain their school records or obtain experts who were knowledgeable about contributing factors of false confessions and intellectual disabilities. This claim is what's known as an ineffective assistance of counsel claim and it's common in post conviction relief efforts. However, in this case it's particularly strong. In addition to Rayshaad and Nathaniel's IAC claims, there's another significant claim about poor performance from a prior lawyer, Robert Leonard. If you'll remember from listening to season seven, Robert represented Rayshawn from the time of his arrest all the way through the conclusion of he and Nathaniel's joint trial in August 2004. Robert had a track record of committing what's known as a Harbison error, which is a legal term for when a defense attorney implies that their client is guilty in front of jurors. In closing arguments during the brothers trial, Robert told their jury that Rayshawn may have been present for the robbery of Mr. Jones and that they, meaning Nathaniel and the rest of the boys, had been with him. But the whole reason any of the defendants were on trial for murder in the first place was because of the Felony Murder rule, which basically says this, if you're a participant in any way to a felony and someone dies as a result, then you're on the hook for murder. So Robert's choice of words in front of Rayshawn and Nathaniel's jury was not good. In fact, it's argued that he violated their constitutional rights. The Harbison error issue was something Christine Muma emphasized on day one of the evidentiary hearing when she asked Judge Brody to allow a 2020 interview that Robert gave to the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission in as substitute testimony for him since he's now dead. In episode seven of season seven, I played portions of this interview which I had a voice actor read. You're trying to save a kid from first degree murder and you got a jury. You want to give them something to hang on, if they can hang on, well, maybe the kid was there, but he didn't really do it. We'll let it go if you just stick with I wasn't there, period. And all the evidence says he was. What's the jury going to look at you like? But the prosecutors didn't want Robert's interview with the innocent Sanquiry Commission allowed in. They argued that his conversation with IIC investigators about his prior representation of Rayshawn and performance at the brothers trial wasn't material to the case and it should be considered hearsay. They made the same argument about an interview Darrell Brayboy gave to commission staff before he died. And you know what else the state wanted thrown out all of the video from the five day March 2020 Innocence Inquiry Commission eight member panel. Yes, the same hearing that resulted in a 5 to 3 vote in favor of the defendant's claims of innocence. The state argued those proceedings were full of inadmissible hearsay and should not be something the judge took into consideration during the evidentiary hearing. But Judge Brody disagreed. He ruled that not only would portions from that hearing be played for him to consider, but so would Durrell and Robert Leonard's interviews from before their death. After all those matters were settled, the spotlight for the first week of the hearing focused on the defendant's former trial attorneys, Niles Gerber, Clark Fisher and Theresa Heyer. Niles was Christopher Bryant's trial lawyer. Clark was Jamal Toliver's, and Teresa Heyer represented Nathaniel Cawthon. Each of these defense attorneys testified about their memories of representing the boys. Naturally, none of them felt that their performance as legal counsel was ineffective. Niles Gerber, for example, told the court that to him it was so clear Christopher and the other teens confessions were coerced by police through the use of threats and violence that he felt that was going to be what convinced jurors the confessions were false. He said he didn't think it was necessary to obtain any school records or have Christopher evaluated to determine whether he had intellectual disabilities. His reason for never seeking advice from a psychological expert was because he believed that Eric Saunders, the prosecutor at trial, was such a skilled litigator that Eric would likely turn any expert for the defense around on the defense. And that was a risk Niles didn't want to take. Niles testified, quote, it was very much a chess game whenever you had a case with Mr. Saunders, end quote. Teresa Heyer, Nathaniel Cawthon's prior defense attorney, testified that from the moment she met Nathaniel, she believed he was innocent of the crime and still does. She said she 100% believed the boys confessions were coerced, mostly because of violent and aggressive tactics by the Winston Salem Police Department. In her own defense, she testified that while representing Nathaniel, she had done some research into false confessions after learning about the Central Park Five case. But she admitted that she was unaware prior to trial that the psychological expert she'd attempted to have testify needed to do a personal individual evaluation of Nathaniel in order to be deemed a qualified expert witness. She also admitted to never getting Nathaniel's school records, but she wished she had because she does agree with modern evidence that shows he had intellectual disabilities. At the time of his interrogation, she told the court, quote, sometimes you miss things. We're not trained professionals, end quote. Nathaniel's mother, Teresa Banner, was in court listening intently to Teresa Hyer's testimony. And I caught up with her afterwards.
- [13:09]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
She really did fight. She fought her best fight. But could she have done more? Yes, she could have. I really do feel like what she advocated in 2002, she put it right back out here today. And you can feel it. You know, I felt it coming out of her heart. She thought that he was innocent then. She still thinks that he's innocent today.
- [13:33]
Delia D'Ambra
What's really interesting to me though is that Teresa Heyer was in a unique position back in 2004 to observe the actions or inactions of another key player in this whole thing, Robert Leonard. Since Nathaniel and Rashawn were tried together in a joint trial, she worked right alongside Robert as essentially co counsel. Now that Robert is deceased, Teresa Heyer is really the only person other than Rayshawn who can give insight into Robert's performance as a lawyer two decades ago. During her testimony, she described him as a very unprepared person. She straight up said that she did all the work in the brothers case. The court transcript from the August 2004 trial reflects that Teresa Cross examined every witness the state presented, and she did all the direct questioning of defense witnesses too. She Said that when Robert told jurors during closing statements that Rayshawn might have been present during the attack on Mr. Jones and proceeded to use the word they, which implicated guilt for Nathaniel and the other boys too, she was totally surprised. She and Robert had not discussed making such damaging statements to jurors.
- [14:50]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
She was shocked. This, this wasn't something that they discussed. So she was shocked. And I would have been wondering, like, wow, where did that come from?
- [14:59]
Delia D'Ambra
The last former defense attorney to testify was Clark Fisher, who represented Jamal Toliver. Just like the other two attorneys, he admitted that he didn't get his client's school records or retain any expert witnesses. He testified that he made the decision to tell jurors up front that Jermal had confessed because he wanted them to be focused on all the bad and questionable things police had done to elicit the confession. He didn't think investigating or telling jurors about Jermal's school performance would have had any impact on the jury. He assumed the 12 strangers weighing Jamal, Christopher and Darrell's fates likely wouldn't care about that sort of thing. Referring to his belief that Jermall's false confession was coerced, he told the court, quote, if you've got a 15 year old kid with a bunch of cops saying this is where the needle is going to go, then you're going to follow down that Penrose path and say whatever you need to say, end quote. Clark stated that he still believes the reason Eric Saunders, the prosecutor, chose not to introduce Jamal's confession at trial was because Eric knew that the means by which the confession was obtained would come under scrutiny on appeal. And so if the state put it in as evidence at trial, it was more likely down the road that the convictions would get overturned. And Eric did not want that. So in Clark's opinion, Eric made sure to keep the confession out at trial. So, yeah, it was unfortunate that Clark told jurors right out the gate that his client had confessed to the crime. And then jurors never got to hear why or hear from Jamal or Christopher themselves. But Clark stated that even if he could go back in time, he wouldn't do anything differently. Whether or not any of the former defense attorneys were ineffective will be up to Judge Brody to decide. He won't issue his final judgment for a while. But an expert in IAC complaints who testified during week one provided some information that the judge can take under advisement. This expert was a veteran lawyer from North Carolina named James Cooney. He testified that after reviewing all of the Defendant's school records, court transcripts, and the former defense attorney's interviews with the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission that their legal representation for each of the then teens was ineffective. He told the court, quote, when you are dealing with defendants who are this age, you should always gather school records to determine mental capacity. Each of these young men were classified as mentally or educationally disabled. He later continued, if you're going to tell a jury that your client gave a false confession because police did things they should not have, then you better be prepared to back that up, end quote. The last witness to Testify during week one was Dr. Haley Cleary, whose name you probably recognize from season seven version is so much more powerful and subtle than people realize. She's the developmental psychologist who specializes in studying risk factors that contribute to false confessions and adolescent behaviors in police interrogations. Right out the gate, one of the prosecutors objected to letting her testify as an expert witness because he claimed she was no better than the judge to determine truthfulness of a confession and whatever her opinions were, weren't relevant. But Judge Brody overruled that objection. And once things got underway, Dr. Cleary educated the entire court about just how much research on false confessions has been done since all the defendants were arrested and convicted. She said, quote, the body of research has grown so prolifically, and later continued, something that is clear, perhaps the most clear, is that adolescents are not equipped to make rational decisions under duress, end quote. Dr. Cleary is passionate about sharing modern research about false confessions with judges like Judge Brody who are making life altering rulings in cases that are decades removed from the original crime. After her review of the case for both the Innocence Inquiry Commission and in preparation for the evidentiary hearing, she testified that she found numerous instances where Winston Salem police detectives had used maximization techniques while interrogating each teen, including Jessica. A maximization technique includes isolating a suspect for a long period of time, yelling at them, threatening them with lethal injection, lying about physical evidence, and so on. During Dr. Cleary's testimony, defense attorney Brad Bannon played clips from Jessica Black and some of the other boys interrogation recordings. Hearing that audio was particularly difficult for Theresa Banner.
- [20:00]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
When you hear that, you know your black ass ain't gonna never see home. These are things that I got a detective that's sitting right there. I just want to get up and you know, I just really. You want to just choke the living crap out of these people because they're wrong. And the only thing that I'm saying is these were children. They were children. And to know that they were treated like that after they willingly went with you. You didn't have to pull them or drag them, throw them on the ground. You didn't have to do anything. And this is the way you treated my sons.
- [20:40]
Delia D'Ambra
When it was prosecutor Ben White's turn to question Dr. Cleary, things got interesting. He asked her how much she was getting paid to testify for the defense, which she couldn't recall off the top of her head without referring to her records. Then later, he asked her whether she thought a podcast was a reliable source of information, which she said, yes, it is. Immediately following that question, he asked her a series of follow up questions which included the phrases, any amateur can say any manner of nonsense. Any amateur running a podcast can say whatever. Throw around baseless accusations, and a person with zero knowledge or qualifications or journalists can start a podcast. It was obvious to everyone in court at that moment that Ben White was talking about me and this podcast. He asked Dr. Cleary if she thought it was appropriate to go on a public podcast prior to testifying in an evidentiary hearing. She stood firm and replied that she'd been very clear with me not to comment specifically about this case. And she intentionally only spoke with me in generalities about her field of study, which is 100% true, by the way. I've got a nice recorded interview that proves that. But regardless of the prosecutor's attempt to tear down Dr. Cleary's testimony, everything she had to say as it relates to the false confession claims in this case will be considered by Judge Brody. And I just want to take a minute here and point out just how wild it is to me that the District Attorney's office felt it necessary to bring up this podcast while cross examining an expert witness. If anything, it just confirms for me that the prosecution is not only keenly aware of this show, but maybe they're concerned about the information that's been brought to light and even more information that I'm continuing to uncover. Because you see, I wasn't just coming to court while in Winston Salem. I was also busy doing more reporting, digging and meeting with new sources.
- [22:46]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
Ain't no lawyers never come talk to me. Ain't no law enforcement ever come talk to me.
- [22:52]
Delia D'Ambra
Do you remember ever taking cabs to Mr. Jones home?
- [22:54]
Wanda Sykes
Yeah.
- [22:56]
Delia D'Ambra
More on that after the break.
- [23:02]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
Now streaming on Hulu. A wicked true crime. It was a kidnapping torture case.
- [23:08]
Delia D'Ambra
A crime of greed and cruelty. The men tortured the victim by beating.
- [23:12]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
Tasing, and burning him.
- [23:13]
But it didn't end there. And this is where it gets really horrible. The guy was Cutting off my roommate's penis. It was like a bad dream.
- [23:22]
Delia D'Ambra
This crime was horrific.
- [23:23]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
He's a psychopath. Wicked game. Devil in the desert.
- [23:27]
Delia D'Ambra
This was a story about greed, sadism, evil.
- [23:30]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
Now streaming only on Hulu.
- [23:36]
Hailee Steinfeld
Hey, loves. Hailee Steinfeld here. Let's be real. When I'm on the red carpet, everyone wants to know whose dress I'm wearing. But here's the thing. We're so focused on those details, we're missing something that's actually way more breast health.
- [23:49]
Delia D'Ambra
It's wild.
- [23:50]
Hailee Steinfeld
Breasts get so much attention, but they're still so ignored when it matters most. Don't know what I'm talking about. Tune in on February 9th and visit YourAttentionPlease.com that's YourAttentionPlease.com. see you then.
- [24:08]
Delia D'Ambra
It was unusually cold while I was in Winston Salem in early January. Like ice and snow. Winter storm warning, cold. Court even got delayed a few times. But that didn't stop me from trying to find and interview two women who I'd long believed could be helpful to my investigation. Diane Fant and Yolanda Graham Hairston, Mr. Jones's two cleaning ladies who, police reports state, spoke with detectives back in 2002. I'd been unsuccessful getting a hold of either woman over the phone or email. So after court one day, I said, screw it, and just drove to two addresses I had for them at Diane's place. She welcomed me in and agreed to a recorded interview right on the spot.
- [24:52]
Wanda Sykes
I used to see him around at different places, and that's how I start work. He asked me, could I clean this house? I just cleaned, you know, his bathroom, kitchen, you know, his room, you know, dust through his living room.
- [25:09]
Delia D'Ambra
She'd started cleaning Mr. Jones home on Moravia Street a few years before his murder because, according to her, his prior cleaner had quit and Mr. Jones knew she could use the money.
- [25:20]
Wanda Sykes
That man didn't bother nobody. That man worked hard. I know he had his own business and stuff, but he was really nice to me. Cause he didn't even have to give me the job.
- [25:34]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
But he did in 2002.
- [25:37]
Delia D'Ambra
Police reports state that Diane told detectives she was at Mr. Jones House Cleaning on Friday, November 15, the day of the murder. But she left in a cab by 1:50pm Several hours before the crime. You don't remember anything weird happening that day while you were cleaning, do you?
- [25:54]
Wanda Sykes
No. Cause like I said, you know, when I get through, I will call the cab, sit there at the table and wait for the cab.
- [26:03]
Delia D'Ambra
Do you know what cab company you Usually used.
- [26:06]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
Mm.
- [26:07]
Delia D'Ambra
Mm.
- [26:08]
Wanda Sykes
I. Thank you.
- [26:09]
Delia D'Ambra
Do you think you ever used a Willard Cab Company?
- [26:12]
Wanda Sykes
Yes.
- [26:14]
Delia D'Ambra
Do you remember usually if it would be a really long time before the driver got there or if they typically stayed in that area, if it was hard to catch a cab from his house?
- [26:23]
Wanda Sykes
No, it wasn't hard. Cause when I would call for a cab, they came, you know, came. It didn't take that long. Wasn't even 30 minutes.
- [26:32]
Delia D'Ambra
Diane's response got me thinking about those series of calls that were placed to Willard Cab Co. Shortly after Mr. Jones was attacked, but before anyone discovered his body. If you remember, Willard's dispatchers told police that those back to back calls had come from the same person, a young black male who requested the same thing each time. Send a cab to 905 Moravia St. Stad. Diane didn't know anything about those calls or the fact that Mr. Jones had another cleaning lady in November 2002.
- [27:06]
Wanda Sykes
He didn't have two cleaners. I was just cleaning his house.
- [27:11]
Delia D'Ambra
If I were to tell you, though, based on police's interviews with people after Mr. Jones murder, that there was a woman named Yolanda Graham Harrison who also said that she cleaned Mr. Jones home at the same time you did, is that a surprise to you?
- [27:28]
Wanda Sykes
Yes.
- [27:29]
Delia D'Ambra
So you. You guys basically, from your perspective, did not know what another across paths?
- [27:33]
Wanda Sykes
No.
- [27:36]
Delia D'Ambra
The only way to get to the bottom of this strangeness about the cleaners was to speak with Yolanda Graham Harriston, the other cleaning lady who was named in police reports. When I arrived at her house shortly after leaving Diane's place, she invited me in. She didn't want her voice to be recorded, but she agreed to speak with me and allowed me to take notes. During our conversation, she confirmed she was Mr. Jones's house cleaner at the time of his murder, but had no idea Diane Fant existed. She said she would typically clean on Friday afternoons or evenings, but by sheer chance, she hadn't been there. On November 15, she drove her own car to and from his place and didn't learn about Mr. Jones's death until after watching a news story shortly after the crime. Interestingly, she told me she had no recollection of ever speaking with anyone from Winston Salem Police department back in 2002. However, that is not what's in police reports. In fact, a detective, Dr. Duckett with WSPD, wrote two reports about his interactions with Yolanda. In one report from November 19, 2002, he states that he spoke with Yolanda and she declined to do an interview because she wanted to attend Mr. Jones's funeral that day. He went on to write that when he attempted to reschedule her interview for the following day, she told him she couldn't. They eventually rescheduled their chat for November 22, 2002. What's really wild is that when I read Yolanda the verbatim police reports I just mentioned, she exclaimed, quote, that's a lie. End quote. When I asked her what part of the report she thought was a lie, she said, all of it. The entire narrative fabricated, according to her. I guess it's her word against Detective Ducketts. But based on what the records show about law enforcement's behavior in this case, especially by November 19, when they were behind closed doors with all of the defendants in custody, I can't help but question the integrity of what's in their documentation, especially when it comes to their own actions. If Yolanda says she was never interviewed, I believe her. But then the question becomes, why would an officer say otherwise? I'll probably never be able to answer that question, but it makes me feel icky all the way around. Someone else I got ahold of while in town was Joseph Cawthon, Rashawn and Nathaniel's older brother. After the podcast released, Joseph listened and reached out to me via email.
- [30:15]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
You did more investigation than the actual lawyers did to me. Cause you really put in groundwork for all the information that you found out from going to going through the cab records and all that. They could have did them exact same things, but it wasn't nothing there, really. Done. See, you even reached out to me. Or better yet, I could reach out to you to be accessible for you to come talk to me.
- [30:40]
Delia D'Ambra
When his brothers were arrested in November 2002, Joseph was in the Forsyth County Jail on a probation violation charge. He remembers the moment when Winston Salem police detectives came to his cell and took his Nike Air Force ones literally off his feet.
- [30:56]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
They brought me some slippers and like, we gonna need these shoes off your feet. And I'm like, huh? Like, for what? So they explained. Then a couple hours later, they came and got and questioned me about other.
- [31:09]
Delia D'Ambra
Crimes unrelated to Mr. Jones murder.
- [31:12]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
Unrelated, but related to robbery.
- [31:16]
Delia D'Ambra
So they had the opportunity to interview you about your brother's potential involvement that they suspected. But they chose to interview you about completely unrelated crimes.
- [31:28]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
Yes.
- [31:29]
Delia D'Ambra
Did you think that that was odd, considering they were your brothers? And yes, if law enforcement in 2002 had formally interviewed Joseph as part of Mr. Jones murder investigation, they would have learned something very important, and that's that he could vouch for Rayshawn's whereabouts during the time frame of the murder?
- [31:50]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
I was with my children's mother. We was coming from my cousin's house. My mama got off at a certain time, so she ain't allowed us to have females or nothing like that in our house. Well, she didn't allow us to have company in the house while she wasn't there or didn't know. So me being sneaky, you know what I'm saying, We went to the house or whatever. Boom. And prepare for her to get ready to leave. And so. But when I was there, Ra'Sean was there on the couch asleep.
- [32:17]
Delia D'Ambra
So you remember seeing your youngest brother Ra'sean on the couch asleep while you were trying to maybe sneak out with your girlfriend?
- [32:24]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
Yes.
- [32:26]
Delia D'Ambra
At the time, he says he didn't really know who to go to with this information because Rashawn and Nathaniel's trial attorneys seemed disinterested and too busy. It wasn't until investigators with the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission contacted him decades later that Joseph's story about seeing Rayshawn asleep at home was officially documented.
- [32:46]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
Ain't no lawyers never come talk to me. Ain't no law enforcement ever come talk to me. Only people that actually came and talked to me and asked about anything was. Was the Innocence Commission, and I told them the same thing.
- [33:00]
Delia D'Ambra
At this point in the case, though, Joseph saying that he saw his brother during the timeframe of the murder doesn't really hold much weight. And the reason is the prosecution could just argue that he's lying and that he's biased because he'd say anything all these years later to make his brother look better. But Joseph told me he knows his truth and he stands by it. He hopes that Judge Brody will keep an open mind.
- [33:25]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
I want him just to see in totality of everything that is really going on, and that's been going on for the last 20 years, and nobody ain't did nothing about it. So you got an opportunity to fix it or make it right. Base it off of what is being presented, not off anything else.
- [33:47]
Delia D'Ambra
During the second week of the evidentiary hearing, the assistant director of the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission testified about how the agency made sure that chain of custody for pieces of physical evidence was not broken. When DNA testing took place in 2020, the state made it a point to question the commission's procedures for handling evidence in this case, particularly the tape evidence. But the commission's assistant director stated she was confident that none of her staff or the workers at Bode Private Forensics lab had contaminated the tape and accidentally left behind a dominant female DNA profile. Immediately following that witness, a DNA expert took the stand and testified about the results of Bode's testing. When asked if she thought the findings appeared incomplete, inauthentic or untrustworthy, she stated no. There was a whole lot of back and forth and objections from prosecutors about this witness's testimony, but in the end, much of everything she said or reports she'd produced prior to the hearing were admitted for the judge to consider. Probably the biggest thing to come out of her testimony was that the DNA on the black string intertwined with the tape used to bind Mr. Jones's hands is a mixture of three profiles. The majority of the mixture is a very rich female DNA profile that currently has no matches in codis, and the rest of the mixture is made up of two minor profiles that are both male. One of those is believed to belong to Mr. Jones and the other is unknown, but it is not any of the defendants or anyone known to have been involved in the case to date. The final day of week two featured testimony from Jermal and Christopher, followed by Rashaun, and just like every other time before this, they all denied involvement in Mr. Jones's murder. Prosecutors took special aim at Rashawn, who is still incarcerated. The state peppered him with questions about his juvenile record prior to Mr. Jones's murder, which included offenses like vandalism, suspected breaking and entering into cars, stealing bicycles, and not wearing a helmet while riding a moped, all seemingly minor infractions compared to first degree murder, and all of which occurred when he was elementary age. At one point, Rashawn became noticeably upset with one of the assistant district attorneys and kind of got an attitude. He later expressed to the court that the reason he appeared combative was because he doesn't like talking about the whole case. It makes him sad and he compensates sometimes by becoming uncooperative. When asked if he had anything to say to members of the Jones and Paul families who were sitting in court, he expressed that he was sorry about what happened to Mr. Jones, but neither he, his brother or his friends were responsible. During the third and final week of the hearing, it was time for Nathaniel Cawthon and the most anticipated witness, Jessica Black, to testify. To say that everyone was on pins and needles to hear from them is an understatement.
- [36:55]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
Forsyth county was wrong. They were wrong and they were dirty.
- [37:01]
Delia D'Ambra
More after the break.
- [37:06]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
Now streaming on Hulu. A wicked true crime. It was a kidnapping torture case, a.
- [37:13]
Delia D'Ambra
Crime of greed and cruelty. The men tortured the victim by beating, tasing, and burning him.
- [37:18]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
But it didn't end there. And this is where it gets really horrible. The guy was cutting off my roommate's hes. It was like a bad dream.
- [37:26]
Delia D'Ambra
This crime was horrific.
- [37:28]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
He's a psychopath. Wicked game. Devil in the Desert.
- [37:31]
Delia D'Ambra
This was a story about greed, sadism, evil.
- [37:34]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
Now streaming only on Hulu.
- [37:38]
Hailee Steinfeld
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- [38:13]
Delia D'Ambra
While Nathaniel testified, he was visibly emotional as he spoke about his brother Rashawn, his mom Teresa, and his situation as a whole. Just as he'd done many times before, he detailed how, from the moment police took him into custody, he denied killing Mr. Jones. He also explained the various ways he felt coerced by detectives into falsely confessing to the crime. Under the impression he would get to go home while he spoke, Jessica Black sat in the courtroom. In fact, she'd been able to sit in and listen to all of the defendants testify. It was the first time she'd ever been allowed to watch them take the stand. And it was the first time she'd come face to face with Nathaniel and Rayshawn in nearly two decades. I interviewed her over the phone shortly afterwards.
- [39:03]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
I literally cried through the entire testimony, each time hearing the things that their families and stuff have went through while they haven't been able to be there for them and how it affected them. I mean, to me, that was horrible. It was sad. It was sad. Like I sat and I sat in the benches and I just cried because it broke my heart. It was horrible.
- [39:28]
Delia D'Ambra
When Nathaniel was asked how he feels towards Jessica, he answered in true Nathannel fashion.
- [39:35]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
He said, that girl feels just as cool as she was back when we was hanging out. He said, I ain't got nothing against her. He said, because y'all did her the same way y'all did us. I hate when they say that, because I don't feel that way. I feel like they were done a whole hell of a lot worse. It Warms my heart to know that they feel that way. They all said that they had no issues with me whatsoever, and I was just the way that made me feel like them boys will never, ever understand how that made me feel. I needed that. Like, I needed that because I've carried so much guilt so over all these years, and I needed that. I needed to hear they didn't hate me.
- [40:19]
Delia D'Ambra
And it wasn't just Jessica who was brought to tears by the defendants. Several people in the courtroom broke down when Nathaniel was given time to personally address Mr. Jones family. He pleaded with them to stop listening to the Forsyth County District Attorney's office and former detectives on the case, who he claimed did not have the family's best interests in mind. He accused the Police and DA's Office of Continuing to try and cover up the things they did wrong, not find true justice. He asked the family to trust the scientific findings in the case, to trust that the lack of his or the other defendant's DNA at the crime scene is proof they weren't there, but someone else was. He told them that he was sorry that Mr. Jones was killed, but he and his friends are not responsible. And they've all spent decades of their lives in prison for something they didn't do. He wants more than anything for Mr. Jones's loved ones to have peace and know the true identity of who took his life, because he believes that person is still out there and knowingly let five people suffer punishment they don't deserve.
- [41:30]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
He was so passionate. He was in tears. And, I mean, it was like. It was. It was truly like poetry. And he told them, you know, I. I'm so sorry for. For what has happened to your. To your. To your dad, your uncle, you know, your grandpa. I'm so sorry. But y'all need to look at what these DAs are doing.
- [41:50]
Delia D'Ambra
They're.
- [41:50]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
It's an injustice to y'all. And, I mean, that is what he said. He said that it was so moving that it had all of us in tears.
- [42:00]
Delia D'Ambra
Theresa Banner feels the same as her son with regards to Mr. Jones loved ones.
- [42:06]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
I don't think they. They know that we want you guys to have closure, and we want your dad to get justice. Because I feel that out of everybody involved, even with my sons, their family was done so bad till it's just wrong. And that hurts me to my heart that they didn't put enough a thought process into making sure that this family had the right information to put the right people away.
- [42:42]
Delia D'Ambra
Yeah. Do you think that the person who did this or Persons who did this are still out there.
- [42:47]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
I absolutely do. I do. If I felt like I was young enough, If I was 20 years younger, I would still continue to look as much as I did from the time that it happened to now. I'm still looking. My ears are still open to anything because it's just a lot. I just think it's still out there, and that person is still out there.
- [43:11]
Delia D'Ambra
When Nathaniel stepped off the witness stand, it was Jessica's turn. She was the last person to testify, and as such, her testimony took about a day and a half to get through. From the start, the state reminded her that she could be charged with perjury if she lied on the stand. But that threat is as hollow to her today as it was more than five years ago when she first recanted.
- [43:35]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
Through this whole thing, I've never had a lawyer represent me in any way, shape or form. I do understand that I can always be hit with perjury. I get that. And I take full responsibility for that. Because, yes, I lied, but I lied because I was scared and I lied because I felt I had to. And it's the same thing I told them on the stand. So I take responsibility for lying, but you don't have to hold that over my head because I know it's there.
- [44:05]
Delia D'Ambra
She took a lot of difficult questions from both the defense and prosecution about her actions. Back in the early 2000s, she once again admitted how awful she felt for lying at the trials about the boy's involvement in Mr. Jones's murder and keeping that lie to herself for so many years while they served time in prison. She carries a lot of guilt for that, not to mention shame heaped on her from people online.
- [44:32]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
I received threats constantly or consistently from the time, from the time the first trials happen till now. But. And I mean, they're still coming in because. But you know, there's people all around the world who have heard either heard your podcast or have seen something about on news or whatever, and they take it upon themselves to form their own opinion of it, which they're entitled to. One specifically that pertains to this podcast. Okay, pretty sure I saved it. I want to read it to you.
- [45:04]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
Okay.
- [45:04]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
It says just because you were scared was no reason to ruin those young boys lives. You cannot say that you as a white girl were treated the same as those innocent men. And on top of that, it took you over two decades to be honest. So while sure they may have forgiven, you know, that. That the public hates you for what you did. I mean, stuff like that. It really. It bothers me because I'm like, you know, I think I can. I can always go on there and try to. Try to, you know, speak my opinion about it, but it does no good because I can't change how people feel. And, I mean, they're gonna. They're gonna feel how they feel about the case. They're gonna feel how they feel about everything that transpired, and I can't change that. All I can do is try and do my best for those guys. I always felt guilty, and I will always feel guilty, because I know I could have got there and told the truth, but I didn't. Like I said, I was scared because I was being threatened with life in prison.
- [46:13]
Delia D'Ambra
And for that last part, she blames the Winston Salem Police Department and the District Attorney's office.
- [46:20]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
Forsyth county was wrong. They were wrong and they were dirty. Like, they would not allow us to tell the truth. We tried. Every one of us when we got in there, just every one of our testimonies, we all got up there and said, we tried that we tried to tell the truth. We tried. And they told us no, that we were all liars. While y'all are sitting here, Hell, Ben determined that these are the guys who did it. Hell bent on it. You know, you got somebody else walking around out here free. Their job is to get justice is what it is, and that's not what they're doing, in my opinion. They are fighting so hard to cover up poor police work that it is not. That's not even funny.
- [47:07]
Delia D'Ambra
Interestingly, one of the prosecutors questioned Jessica about why she spoke with me for this podcast, an inquiry that didn't rattle her in the slightest.
- [47:17]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
He said, do you think you had the right to. To speak about this on a podcast? And I said, well, I've done testified. I'd already testified three times prior. I'm already on record. So nothing's going to change from what I'm saying now to what I said then.
- [47:33]
Delia D'Ambra
Then there was another shot she felt the DA's office took at her, which led nowhere and just seemed downright personal.
- [47:40]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
He's like, have you been bought anything since you've been here? And I was like, well, yeah, you know, I was like, I was bought lunch. And he was like, oh, by who? By the defense attorneys. I'm like, it comes from their team, but it was not by them personally. I said, I assume it was from the company. And I was like. So I said, but you really, truly think that I got up here and I've gone through this all these years and testified all these years and put myself through all this anxiety and all this stress for a cheeseburger. Oh, his face got so red. Oh. I mean, you could tell every time something was said to him like this. This young guy's face would turn so red. I mean, I'm talking, like, beat red. Every D. A. Has their own way of. Of coming across when they're doing.
- [48:34]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
Quite.
- [48:34]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
When they're questioning defendants or witnesses or whatever, but these are the first. These are the first DA's I've ever dealt with that were they were. It's like they tried their best to get under your skin. They were. They did everything and anything they possibly could and just to get under your skin and. And it didn't. It didn't really bother us or the defense team. I mean, it bothered the judge.
- [49:03]
Delia D'Ambra
But courtroom antics aside, the most important thing to Jessica is that she maintained what she says is the trut. Her friends were not on Moravia street on November 15, 2002, when Mr. Jones was attacked, because most of them were with her. Her unwavering dedication to testify over and over again to that version of events has, in a strange way, bonded her to Theresa Banner, Nathaniel and Rayshawn's mother.
- [49:32]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
When I got released off subpoena, she hugged me, and she told me she loved me. And then tells me, jessica, if there's anything I could ever do for you, you let me know. Hannah, you know how I felt so bad? Because she said that to me, and I don't know why I felt bad. And I told her, don't ever, ever say that again. Don't ever offer to do anything for me, because it's me that owes you. I owe you your kids. And I do owe you.
- [50:03]
Delia D'Ambra
In the end. Whatever happens with this case, new trial or not, dropped charges or not, forgiveness has won the day, at least between two people who have no reason in this universe to speak to one another amicably. And yet they can. Judge Robert Brody's ruling likely won't come down for a while, but when it does, I'll be sure to give you all an update. If he rules in favor of even one of the claims in the defendant's mars, then their convictions get overturned or a new trial would be ordered. If that were to happen, Rayshawn and Nathaniel would request bail and petition to be released while the state decides whether to retry them, appeal, or drop the charges entirely. If Judge Brody rules against the defense, then they would appeal as well. But not much would change in the interim, considering everything that was jam packed into this evidentiary hearing. Theresa Banner, who has had her two youngest sons behind bars for almost 23 years, remains hopeful for a miracle.
- [51:08]
Unknown (possibly a witness or family member)
Everything looks good, you know, a new judge with a new perspective on things. But still, you cannot. Being that we have been down this road so many times, you just cannot be overjoyed and sealed in 100% because at some point, I think you really do have to face, you know, reality. What if, you know, so. So pretty much that's where I'm at. It's kind of sad on both sides, you know, that I'm happy this minute and I'm sad this minute, and that's just how I'm going with it. And, you know, at the same time, still praying for God to just keep me strong, you know, because it is. It's hard going through it again.
- [51:49]
Delia D'Ambra
The Jones and Paul families declined to make any public comments after the hearing concluded. So I'm unsure where they stand coming out of this hearing, but it's my sincerest hope that they find peace, whatever that looks like. As I prepared to write this episode, I found myself dwelling on something that was uttered every single day in court. A familiar stitching of words that are as much of a staple in the American justice system as, say, images of lady justice or a gavel. And that's these words. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. But as I think back to watching Jermal Toliver, Christopher Bryant, Nathaniel Cawthon, and Rayshawn Banner every day in court, I can't help but wonder if maybe to them, not all of those words in our Pledge of Allegiance ring true. Liberty and justice for all. Are they? Are liberty and justice available for all, or are those things only available to some? That question is one we all have to ask ourselves, one I've been asking myself for nearly two years, and one we should all be continually asking of our judicial system. As a reminder, if you still have some big questions about this case, be sure to submit those to me@CounterclockDiochUK.com because we're going to be releasing a bonus Q and A episode in just a few weeks, and I'm going to have a very special guest join me. I think you all are going to love this discussion. So thank you again for listening to this episode and I'll be back soon.
- [53:44]
Unknown (possibly a narrator or advertisement voice)
I see you looking, looking at me.
- [53:47]
Hailee Steinfeld
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- [54:16]
Unknown (possibly an advertisement voice)
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