Season 7: Jousting (Update)

Summary

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CounterClock – Season 7: Jousting (Update)

Podcast: CounterClock
Host: Delia D’Ambra
Episode: Season 7: Jousting (Update)
Date: August 29, 2025

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Episode Overview

This special update episode, hosted by investigative journalist Delia D’Ambra, delivers a gripping real-time account of the dramatic August 2025 exonerations in the Winston Salem 5 case. After two decades in the shadow of conviction for the 2002 murder of Nathaniel Jones, five men—convicted as teenagers—finally see their case overturned by a landmark judicial ruling. The episode explores the emotional fallout, the legal "jousting" between defense and prosecutors, and the deeply personal costs of wrongful conviction on individuals and families. Listeners are taken into the heart of the legal battle, with candid reflections from the defense team, exonerees, key witnesses, family members, and journalists.

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Main Themes

• The fight against wrongful convictions in America
• The power and peril of witness testimony and coerced confessions
• Legal system complexities: Post-conviction legal maneuvers and the "jousting" between defense and state
• The lingering impact on those accused, their families, and the victim’s family
• Broad questions about justice, closure, and the difficulty of reversing deeply entrenched prosecutions

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Exoneration of the Winston Salem 5

[01:20]–[05:18]

• Delia introduces the episode, highlighting her year-long investigation into the convictions of five young men for Nathaniel Jones' 2002 murder.
• After years of asserting their innocence, an evidentiary hearing in January 2025 led to Superior Court Judge Robert Brody vacating their convictions—with prejudice, meaning the charges cannot be refiled.
• The judge’s decision was based on recanted testimony by Jessica Black, new DNA evidence, and research on adolescent psychology and false confessions.

Mark Rabel (on the scope of the judge’s ruling):
"Not only did he rule for us on all the claims that we presented, but he dismissed the case with prejudice, which means it couldn't be refiled, which is pretty strong." — [05:18]

2. Mixed Emotions and Immediate Impact

[05:30]–[10:34]

• The defense team, exonerees, and their loved ones describe shock, relief, and decades of emotional weight; some literally scream in the streets at the news.
• Jermal Toliver and Christopher Bryant, already released, celebrate having convictions expunged at last. Rayshawn Banner and Nathaniel Cawthon are poised to walk out as free men.
• Jessica Black, whose recantation is pivotal to the exonerations, describes both vindication and lasting guilt for her part in the wrongful convictions.

Jessica Black:
"To be told that you're lying all these years, and then for someone to really listen and take you seriously... Like they didn't care." — [10:34]

Theresa Ingram Banner (mother):
"I let out the biggest, biggest, biggest scream I could. So overjoyed, the tears couldn't even begin to try to stop. That's how many was cried and yelled so loud to the people on the streets heard me." — [12:40]

3. The State’s Resistance and Legal Jousting

[13:21]–[21:26]

• The initial celebratory mood is cut short—just hours after Judge Brody's ruling, Forsyth County prosecutors seek a stay to keep Rayshawn and Nathaniel imprisoned during appeal.
• Despite the Superior Court denying the first stay, the North Carolina Attorney General’s Office successfully petitions the Court of Appeals, and the two men remain incarcerated.
• The episode delves into the "medieval" legal technicalities deployed by prosecutors—focusing on procedure over substance, and raising issues of finality versus justice.

Mark Rabel:
"They somehow talked the attorney general's office into agreeing to make ridiculous arguments to pursue a stay of the ruling to keep Nathaniel and Rashawn locked up... You don't lock away innocent people and use technicalities." — [19:30]

4. Importance of Recanted Testimony

[16:33]–[18:10]

• Jessica Black’s recantation is presented as the linchpin. Without her testimony, there is virtually no case left against the five men.

Michael Hewlett:
"She was the linchpin. She was the key. It was her testimony that sealed their fate. So it is extraordinary that the judge believed her when she said, all those years ago, I lied." — [16:56]

5. Systemic Critique and Societal Impact

[21:26]–[25:13]

• Discussion of why prosecutors resist overturning convictions: concerns about finality, electoral motivations, institutional pride, and deference to the victim’s family’s ongoing pain.
• Journalists raise concerns about juvenile justice system flaws and the dangers of confessions obtained from minors under duress.

Michael Hewlett:
"The tragedy of wrongful convictions is that while prosecutors spend a lot of time trying to uphold a wrongful conviction, it means that the actual perpetrator has gotten away with it. This is really about, what do we mean when we talk about justice?" — [25:13]

6. The Uncertain Path Forward

[27:19]–[30:11]

• Various legal scenarios are discussed—including further appeals, remands, or political resolutions via clemency.
• Defense vows to continue fighting as a united team until Rayshawn and Nathaniel are free.
• The human toll of lost years is keenly felt: families plan reunions; Jessica Black expresses enduring regret and a longing for forgiveness.

Jessica Black:
"I am so sorry. I cannot tell y'all how sorry I am. I've told y'all so many times over the years, and I will never be done telling you how sorry I am. I love y' all, and I hope that y' all get the lives you deserve." — [29:33]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It's almost like trying to resurrect the dead. It really is."
  — Mark Rabel, describing the power of freeing the wrongly convicted [08:38]

• "We was never free until this weight was lifted off of us."
  — Christopher Bryant, on the emotional burden of a wrongful conviction [09:11]

• "Look at all the time they missed. That's the time you can't get back."
  — Jessica Black, on the irreparable loss suffered by the men and their families [10:57]

• "They just want to save face. The problem... is prosecutors... don't like to accept change. I don't know, it's about electability and pride."
  — Mark Rabel [23:01]

• "The stories that we've done as journalists raise some uncomfortable questions... How comfortable are we... with a conviction based on [coerced confessions from] kids?"
  — Michael Hewlett [25:13]

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Timeline of Important Segments

• [01:20] – Background on the Winston Salem 5 and news of their exoneration
• [04:03] – Mark Rabel on the legal arguments and case law
• [06:26] – Reactions from legal team as the judge’s decision arrives
• [07:48] – What Brody’s order meant for each of the men
• [09:11] – Christopher Bryant on the emotional toll
• [10:34] – Jessica Black’s experience recanting and its impact
• [12:40] – Theresa Ingram Banner’s joy at her sons’ exoneration
• [13:21] – Prosecutors immediately seek to keep two men in prison
• [16:33] – Legal obstacles and lack of remaining case against the men
• [18:10] – DA Jim O’Neill’s shock and reaction
• [19:30] – Attorney General’s Office files successful motion to keep men incarcerated
• [22:03] – Theresa on the ongoing uncertainty for her sons
• [23:38] – The victim’s family’s reaction and pursuit of closure
• [25:13] – Critique of the justice system’s handling of juvenile confessions
• [27:24] – Range of legal possibilities moving forward
• [29:22] – Families preparing for reunification
• [29:33] – Jessica Black’s heartfelt hopes for eventual forgiveness

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Conclusion & Next Steps

The episode closes with Delia urging listeners to learn more, get involved through advocacy or charitable support, and stay tuned for updates, as legal and political maneuvers continue to unfold. She spotlights the ongoing fight for true justice—not just for the wrongly convicted, but for all those touched by the ripple effects of systemic failure.

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Resource Links

• North Carolina Attorney General’s Office contact: NCDOJ.gov
• North Carolina Center on Actual Innocence: nccai.org (nonprofit representing the men)
• More details and supporting documents: See episode show notes

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Transcript

[Delia d' Ambra]

Hi everyone, it's Delia. And if you're here, you likely appreciate a thorough investigation that seeks to unravel the mysteries behind crimes as much as I do. And if that's you, you have to check out the Deck. Hosted by my friend Ashley Flowers, the Deck is a podcast that dives into unsolved cold cases across the country, each tied to a playing card from a cold case deck distributed by law enforcement in prisons to help uncover new leads. And Ashley has assembled a team of investigative reporters to dig into the details of these crimes, many of which didn't receive the coverage they deserved, and to truly highlight the lives of the victims and the lingering questions around their stories. Because every case deserves closure. Listen to the Deck now wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Michael Hewlett]

How could popular Mormon family vlogger Ruby Franke end up being convicted for child abuse?

[Mark Rabel]

The answer to that question is Jody Hildebrandt.

[Michael Hewlett]

But Jody's manipulation extended far beyond the Franke family, seemingly leaving a trail of victims in her wake. This ID documentary event features never before seen interviews from survivors who found the.

[Mark Rabel]

Courage to expose her systematic abuse.

[Michael Hewlett]

Ruby and Jodie, A Cult of Sin and Influence premieres September 1st at 9pm Eastern on ID.

[Delia d' Ambra]

The saying there are two sides to every story is never truer than when you're investigating a claim of wrongful conviction in a murder case. For more than a year, I've been heads down untangling the police investigation into the November 2002 murder of Nathaniel Jones in Winston Salem, North Carolina. And a huge part of that involved reexamining the convictions of the five teenage boys who were labeled as his killers. Five juveniles now face first degree murder charges for tying up, robbing and killing Jones. And now something extraordinary has happened. After decades of proclaiming that they are innocent of the crime, a superior court judge has believed them.

[Christopher Bryant]

Mr. Bryant, conviction shall be vacated and hereby dismissed with Ms. Ottoman's conviction shall be vacated and are hereby dismissed.

[Jessica Black]

Convictions shall be vacated. Mr. Cauldon's convictions shall be vacated and are hereby dismissed with prejudice.

[Theresa Ingram Banner]

So I thought I would never live to read what just came off of those papers.

[Mark Rabel]

It's a very rare thing that you get a ruling from a trial judge in one of our cases, a positive ruling.

[Delia d' Ambra]

But the story has taken a strange.

[Mark Rabel]

Twist where the state, within hours of the judge's ruling, moved for a stay. And the purpose of that stay was to keep Rashawn and Nathaniel locked away.

[Theresa Ingram Banner]

I'm still stuck on why am I still here? Why am I still here?

[Christopher Bryant]

They just want to steal our joy?

[Delia d' Ambra]

This is Counterclock Season 7, a special update episode about the August 2025 exonerations of a group of young men known most commonly as The Winston Salem 5 and their ongoing pursuit for freedom. I'm your host, Delia d'. Ambr. It's not often you see the sport of jousting anymore. You know, knights in suits of armor barreling toward one another with long, pointed lances aimed at each other's chests. It's a medieval pastime, but the art of legal jousting, it's alive and well. Just ask defense attorneys for the living members of the Winston Salem 5, or staff at the Forsyth County District Attorney's Office if they're willing to comment. Because ever since the afternoon of August 8, 2025, these two sides have had their metaphorical lances in hand and been making passes at each other unlike anything I've ever seen in the post conviction space. I mean, some of the case law that's been referenced is, well, I would.

[Mark Rabel]

Call it ancient medieval type law of some of the technicalities that they're arguing. I mean, this is how far they're having to stretch it.

[Delia d' Ambra]

That's Mark Rabel, Jamal Toliver's lawyer and the director of Wake Forest University's Innocence and Justice Clinic. At an evidentiary hearing in January 2025, which was held to evaluate the defendant's post conviction motions for appropriate relief, Mark and fellow defense attorneys Brad Bannon and Chris Muma presented their case to Forsyth County Superior Court Judge Robert Brody. When that three week hearing ended, the only thing either side could do was wait. It was up to Judge Brody to decide a lot of things, most notably whether Jessica Black's recantation was credible, modern DNA testing and studies in adolescent developmental psychology constituted as newly discovered evidence, and that the defendant's initial trial attorneys were ineffective for failing to obtain their school records or call expert witnesses to speak about false confessions. After about six months of reviewing everything, Judge Brody issued his order. He granted relief to the defendants, vacated their convictions, and dismissed all of their charges with prejudice.

[Mark Rabel]

Not only did he rule for us on all the claims that we presented, but he dismissed the case with prejudice, which means it couldn't be refiled, which is pretty strong.

[Delia d' Ambra]

The landmark decision caught longtime Winston Salem journalist Michael Hewlett by surprise.

[Michael Hewlett]

We had no idea at the time of the hearing which way he was going to go, whether he was going to grant all of those claims, whether he was going to decide against one of those claims for whatever reason. Back in January, after All of this was over. I was left with, I don't know what's going to happen. I have no idea. I think I left with an idea that the likely outcome could be that they might hit another. That these men might hit another brick wall. I have covered a number of alleged wrongful convictions, both at the Winston Selem Journal and at the Assembly. And so I don't usually see this kind of decision where the judge says, yes, they're exonerated. Yes, the charges are dismissed, and. And, yes, they are dismissed with prejudice.

[Delia d' Ambra]

It was actually Michael who tipped off Mark Rabel that Judge Brody had made his decision. Mark had just arrived at a spiritual retreat in Massachusetts when his phone buzzed.

[Mark Rabel]

I was there for about an hour, and I had a text from Michael Hewlett with the assembly that he heard somehow that the judge had issued a ruling. The retreat was about to start. And you really. And I was supposed to talk, like, where the place is. So I went walking on this four mile route that I would do every day, and I called Brad Bannon so that he could get on the computer. And so we're talking and he's looking on his computer, trying to figure it out. I'm in the woods, you know, fortunately, there's cell phone service. Brad is like, I am so nervous, and he's like, I'm actually shaking, trying getting to the, you know, to it. And he said, okay, here it is. And so he's like, oh, my God, it's like over 100 pages long. And he said, well, the actual ruling is 30 some pages long. So he's sort of scrolling down, and we can tell by the language that it's going to be good. And it was very, you know, very emotional for both of us. We ended up getting Chris on the line, and she was also very excited. And, you know, we were just sort of, the three of us sort of commiserating. Okay, what does this mean?

[Delia d' Ambra]

What it meant was that Mark's client, Jermal Toliver, who had been out of prison since 2017, and Brad Bannon's client, Christopher Bryant, who was also released in 2017 after serving his full sentence, would have their convictions for second degree murder and common law robbery expunged. The deceased member of the Winston Salem Five, Darrell Brayboy, would be posthumously exonerated. And brothers Rayshawn Banner and Nathaniel Cawthon, who have been in prison for nearly a quarter of a century, would walk out of prison free men. And their convictions for first degree murder would no longer be on their record.

[Mark Rabel]

It's just Pure excitement that you can't. It's hard to compare it to anything, but when you win freedom for people, it's.

[Theresa Ingram Banner]

Whoa.

[Mark Rabel]

It's almost like trying to resurrect the dead. It really is. Said, okay, I gotta call Jamal. So I called Jamal. He's driving down the road, and it's like he holds the phone away, and he's just like. I knew it. I knew was just. He was so excited.

[Christopher Bryant]

He was like, we won.

[Michael Hewlett]

We won.

[Christopher Bryant]

I couldn't believe it. I was like, what? I was like, he's like, yo, we won. And I just started banging on the steering wheel, screaming. I had to pull over. I couldn't even drive no more.

[Delia d' Ambra]

Still sitting in his car, Jermali immediately dialed Christopher Bryant.

[Christopher Bryant]

I was at work. I was about to load a truck at my job, and actually, he called me first and he told me. And then soon after, my lawyer called me. When I found out that news, I was like, I gotta get off now. You know what I'm saying? We free now from. Even though we got home and got free, we was never free until this weight was lifted off of us.

[Delia d' Ambra]

The woman who played a critical role in lifting a lot of that weight was Jessica Black. For the last seven years, she's stated multiple times under oath that back in 2002, when she was just 16 years old, she was coerced and manipulated by Winston Salem police into giving detectives a confession that falsely implicated Christopher, Jamal, Rayshawn, Darrell, and Nathaniel in Mr. Jones murder. Judge Brody heard her recant once again at the evidentiary hearing in January 2025, when he issued his order in favor of the defendants, he focused a lot on how compelling her recantation was and that without her testimony at the boy's trials back in the day, their juries would have likely come to a different conclusion, AKA not found them guilty. When she learned about Judge Brody's decision to vacate her friend's convictions, she was in the hospital seeking treatment for a chronic health condition she's been battling for years. But she was more than eager to talk with me.

[Jessica Black]

To be told that you're lying all these years, and then for someone to really listen and take you seriously. And I mean seriously, because how many trials have we done been to that? The motion's been denied, and they just didn't want to listen at all. Like they didn't care.

[Delia d' Ambra]

Does this help bring any peace to you?

[Jessica Black]

No. No, because it's still. Even though they're. Even though they're going to have the opportunity to have their lives and get out. Look at all the time they missed. That's the time you can't get back. And life is so short as it is, so you can't get that time back. It doesn't alleviate the guilt, but it makes you feel good inside to know that somebody realizes that you weren't trying to be evil, you weren't trying to do wrong. You were just trying to. You were trying to be a kid, just like they were. You were trying to do what you thought you were supposed to do. I truly think that everything that goes on with me is. It's karma coming back on me. And I really believe, because I believe in karma really, really good and bad.

[Delia d' Ambra]

You mean your health issues?

[Jessica Black]

Yeah, because I was. I never got sick as a kid. Nothing. Like I was good. And then it was like after once all that stuff was ever like once they went to prison and stuff, and next thing you know, boom, here I go. So I mean, I'm like, you know, and everything just went downhill. And I really, truly believe that's a lot of karma coming back. And just because they had to suffer inside. So therefore, I think it might have been God's way of making me suffer outside for making them having to go in there.

[Delia d' Ambra]

Jessica told me that she knew Judge Brody's decision was going to forever change the lives of the men she'd condemned all those years ago, as well as Teresa Ingram Banner Rayshawn and Nathaniel's mother.

[Jessica Black]

She deserves her sons. She absolutely deserves her sons. And she deserves a peaceful rest of her life.

[Delia d' Ambra]

Theresa learned the news about Judge Brody's ruling while getting off work where she manages a fast food restaurant. Her son's lawyer, Christine Muma, called her.

[Theresa Ingram Banner]

I grabbed the phone and headed out outside. And then she says when I say hello, she say, your boys are coming home. I said, oh, my God. And man, the tears started. And I went up to the dumpster area where there was nobody, and I let out the biggest, biggest, biggest scream I could. So overjoyed, the tears couldn't even begin to try to stop. That's how many was cried and yelled so loud to the people on the streets heard me. I actually thought I was going to die because of crying so much, of being happy.

[Delia d' Ambra]

But the celebration was short lived because just a few hours after Judge Brody's ruling came in, prosecutors in Forsyth county picked up their lances and started writing. As summer winds down, it's time to refresh your wardrobe with staple pieces for the season ahead. Quince nails it with luxe essentials that feel effortless. And look polished, perfect for layering and mixing. Their styles are so versatile, you'll find yourself reaching for them again and again. Think chic cashmere and cotton sweaters Starting at just $40, washable silk tops and classic denim pants. Timeless styles you'll keep coming back to the best part. Everything with quints is half the cost of similar brands. I recently found this beautiful leather crossbody that I absolutely fell in love with. And when I tell you guys I thought the price tag was going to be super high, I was pleasantly surprised to see just how affordable it was. Elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with quints. Go to quints.com counterclock for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quincy.com counterclock to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com counterclockwise this message is sponsored by Greenlight. Remember summertime as a kid rites of passage? Like riding a bike, setting up a lemonade stand, and even learning to earn and manage a buck. With school out, summer is the perfect time to teach your kids real world money skills they'll use forever. Greenlight is the easy, convenient way for parents to raise financially smart kids and families to navigate life together. Maybe that's why millions of parents trust and kids love learning about money on Greenlight, the number one family finance and safety app. Our son is still pretty young, but we're working on that. Sort of like, do the task, earn the reward. What is wisdom? What is not wisdom? And I know that's going to translate to the time when we begin giving him an allowance or he starts to earn his own money. And as a parent, that's where I see Green light being so critical. So don't wait to teach your kids real world money skills. Start your risk free Greenlight trial [e-mail] counterclock that's greenlight.com counterclock to get started. Greenlight.com counterclock around 7 o' clock on the day Judge Brody issued his order which effectively exonerated the Winston Salem 5, the DA's office submitted a motion to stay, asking him to stop Rayshawn and Nathaniel's release from prison until their office could seek review of his decision with the North Carolina Court of Appeals. And you probably guessed it, the Superior Court denied that motion. So over the following weekend, the defense attorneys were feeling pretty good. Judge Brody's order and determinations about the facts of the case meant none of the defendants could ever be retried for.

[Mark Rabel]

The crime without Jessica's testimony anymore. Since she recanted, there's really not a case. And you combine that with the fact that the confessions were all subject now to probably being suppressed based on all the new evidence. You know, the state really didn't have a. They don't have any evidence to go forward on. I mean, that's the bottom line.

[Michael Hewlett]

She was the linchpin. She was the key. It was her testimony that sealed their fate. So it is extraordinary that the judge believed her when she said, all those years ago, I lied. It was incredibly important without her, I think when you have a case that does not have a lot of physical evidence that ties these boys to this crime scene, what else do you have? All you have is Jessica Black.

[Mark Rabel]

If Jessica lied and if the judge believed that, which he did, there is no case. From a legal standpoint, this is critical because those types of determinations, credibility. Do you believe a witness? Does a judge believe that Jessica is now telling the truth and taking back her testimony from those two trials? If he believes her, then that's the end of it. And that is not reviewable by the appellate courts, because that is a fact. It is a fact that's determined by somebody who listens to the witness. He's a trier of fact, whereas an appellate court is not.

[Delia d' Ambra]

But Forsyth County's District Attorney, Jim o', Neill, saw things very differently. He was admittedly startled by Judge Brody's ruling, especially because Brody dismissed the men's charges with prejudice, which strictly limits the prosecution's ability to appeal to a higher court. O' Neill told the Winston Salem Journal in part, quote, after nearly 30 years of prosecuting criminal cases, it is difficult to surprise and shock me. But the ruling in this case that came in Friday afternoon has done just that. I have never seen that happen before in a court of law. Most judges welcome scrutiny and appellate review of their decisions, end quote.

[Mark Rabel]

The statute that we went under says you can ask for a new trial or you can ask for a dismissal. And that's what we put in our motion. So it was a legally allowed relief to get a dismissal with prejudice.

[Delia d' Ambra]

But be that as it may, By Tuesday morning, August 12, Jim O' Neill's office had conference with the North Carolina Attorney General, Jeff Jackson. And because prosecutors had been unsuccessful in getting a motion to stay to take effect at the trial court level, they tapped the AG to submit a separate motion to the North Carolina Court of Appeals on their behalf. And that request was granted, much to the dismay of the defense attorneys.

[Mark Rabel]

The Attorney General's office handles all appeals in North Carolina. And so they somehow talked the attorney general's office into agreeing to make ridiculous arguments to pursue a stay of the ruling to keep Nathaniel and Rashawn locked up. Normally when somebody loses at the trial level, you think that, okay, we're going to appeal this, and so you give notice of appeal, we're going to go to the court of appeals. Well, when it's the state, they are limited in whether they have a right to appeal or do they have to go and file a petition, which is a different petition called a petition for certiorari. And so in this case, they have filed a notice of appeal and they have indicated they're going to file a petition for cert. So for the state to now create perhaps even non existent legal arguments to try to keep these two guys locked away while they make inane arguments about procedural issues really re angers me about this whole system. I was counting up the number of cases that, that I've been involved with with this police department and this DA's office, and it's up to 10 cases. And it's clear that these types of things can't happen anymore because the laws have changed. And yet this DA's office, and now, unfortunately, this attorney general's office is defending these wrongful convictions for the sake of one word finality and also because they want to be right. And that is wrong. You don't lock away innocent people and use technicalities. Everybody has the right to be heard. State has a right. Defense has a right. Everybody in all kinds of cases. But at some point, lawyers need to say what is the right thing to do, regardless of what the intricacies of the law may be.

[Delia d' Ambra]

The District Attorney's office has declined my request for comment. But. But a spokesperson for the North Carolina Attorney General's office provided me with a statement recently that read, quote, we asked the court of Appeals to stay the superior Court's recent order in this case while we review it and consider next steps. The court unanimously granted the stay, end quote. After August 12th, emergency filings from both the defense and the state started flying. And they haven't stopped. Meanwhile, caught in limbo, still behind bars are Ran and Nathaniel. Here's their mom, Teresa.

[Theresa Ingram Banner]

Ran is fantastic. I'm not going to say the same about Nathaniel. He's not angry or lashing out. He's a bit of confused in his mind of what's going on. You can kind of give Ran a bit of information, fill him in on that information. He's oh, okay. He's good, Nathaniel. I'M still stuck on why am I still here? Okay. And it's gonna take him a little while to get it until somebody specifically explained to him, step by step, inch by inch, why am I still here?

[Delia d' Ambra]

People I've interviewed suspect they know the answer to that question.

[Jessica Black]

I think that they just want to have somebody to blame. I think they want. I want, they want to keep somebody to blame. They don't want to admit that they've made mistakes.

[Christopher Bryant]

They just can't accept the truth. They can't accept the truth that this is the truth, this is the real facts, this is the real deal. All that other stuff that y' all put together was never what it was.

[Mark Rabel]

They just don't want to lose. They just want to save face. The problem that we're seeing here and around the country is prosecutors. They don't like to defend old convictions. They don't like to accept change. And, you know, it's. I don't know, it's about electability and pride.

[Delia d' Ambra]

To me, it could be more nuanced than that. Though prosecutors have repeatedly stated in court how painful this marathon of a post conviction case has been on the Jones family, Jim o' Neill recently told the Winston Salem Journal that he promises to continue pursuing justice on their behalf.

[Michael Hewlett]

The family obviously believes that these men are guilty, and it's understandable that why? That your loved one is dead. You've gone through two trials. You saw these men get determined. You know, they got convicted, and you thought that was the end of it. And you can go on with your life. You still have grief, you still have pain. But that chapter they believe was closed. And then now, 20 years down the line, someone says, no, no, it's not over. These men have some legitimate claims of innocence. And whether or not the claims are legitimate, from their point of view, you're opening up wounds. I don't want to go through this again. And so prosecutors are using that to argue, no, this should be the end.

[Delia d' Ambra]

Nathaniel Jones family likely can find no peace or joy in the latest developments in the case of and Theresa Ingram Banner understands why.

[Theresa Ingram Banner]

My prayer is that they do get closure because this is devastating. It's taken 23 years. You thought you had closure, you were confident, but just to sit back and see, why are we here? So my prayer is that they find the comfort that they are so looking for when. But in order to get that, God sometimes have to break your heart in order to get in it.

[Michael Hewlett]

The tragedy of wrongful convictions is that while prosecutors spend a lot of time trying to uphold a wrongful conviction, it means that the actual perpetrator has gotten away with it. This is really about, what do we mean when we talk about justice? What does justice mean? If you look at wrongful convictions around the country and you look at how prosecutors often respond, it's usually just about maintaining a win. We got this person convicted. We're going to do everything we can to uphold this conviction. And it doesn't appear to matter what the facts are. And usually the prosecutors aren't arguing the facts. And I expect in this particular case, they're not going to argue the facts. They're not going to get into the weeds about here's the evidence that shows that these guys are guilty. They are going to make very technical legal arguments about how wrong Brody's ruling was, how it was unfair, how it may have violated whatever kind of due process that the prosecutors believe that they should have had in the hearing, not necessarily about what the evidence is in this case. The stories that we've done as journalists raise some uncomfortable questions about how we treat juveniles in the criminal justice system. How comfortable are we in allowing a case to be built on kids being interviewed for hours without lawyers present, without their parents present, with law enforcement threatening them with the death penalty, and in fact, pointing to one of them on their arm about where the lethal injection would be placed? And these are kids who are 14 and 15 at the time. How comfortable are we as a society that we are comfortable with a conviction based on that?

[Delia d' Ambra]

What exactly will happen next in this case isn't clear to anyone yet.

[Mark Rabel]

You know, they could say, we're going to keep. We're going to deny the stay and keep the two young men in prison while we go forward with the appeal. That could take a year, year and a half, or they could decide, look, there's some questions here that we need to send back to Judge Brody for him to explain, or something that would be called a remand for further findings. It's like one of those flowcharts with if this, then that. And there's so many different possible permutations to this from. From this point forward. And then, of course, God forbid, you know, we don't prevail in the end, then we're looking at going to federal court and all through that system. But there's also the. The governor has clemency power, and that. That's also a possibility.

[Delia d' Ambra]

At that point, though, it's like a political game, isn't it?

[Mark Rabel]

It's always a political game. The legal system is a political system.

[Delia d' Ambra]

Despite that, the Defense's objective remains the same.

[Mark Rabel]

It's always been about getting Nathaniel and Rashawn out. So we are united front with all four of us, all of the attorneys working together, including, you know, more attorneys than you probably even know about that are working on the case to try to help out. So, you know, we're in it for the duration until they walk out that door.

[Delia d' Ambra]

If and when that day comes, there will be a lot of catching up.

[Theresa Ingram Banner]

To do when those boys come home. I have a lot of stops to make. But Christopher Bryant's mother, Ms. Geneva, she will be one of my first stops. Because she have feelings for those boys. Those boys have feelings for us.

[Christopher Bryant]

The mama already said she gonna bring them straight up my mama house when they get out. Cause I know they probably wanna see my mama, too. Cause, you know, we got. That's where they came and picked us up at, you know, So I know they gonna wanna see my mama. Cause my momma, she almost 80 years old, you know, we just older now. I'm 38. He 38, you know, so we almost 40. Ain't got no kids.

[Delia d' Ambra]

Jessica Black hopes that Rashawn and Nathaniel's eventual freedom will mark the tangible start of something she spent decades longing for. Forgiveness.

[Jessica Black]

I have a lot of love for the boys. Even after all these years, they will always be a part of my life. Because this is stuff that you can't. You can't just dismiss out your life. You can't forget it. And I have a lot of love for them boys. They deserve a lot more. I hope when y' all get out, you enjoy life to the fullest, man. And I am so sorry. I cannot tell y' all how sorry I am. I've told y' all so many times over the years, and I will never be done telling you how sorry I am. I love y', all, and I hope that y' all get the lives you deserve.

[Delia d' Ambra]

As of this recording, neither of Mr. Jones daughters have publicly commented on Judge Brody's ruling. Chris Paul, who remains a widely influential and celebrated figure in the NBA, also has not issued any sort of public statement reacting to the latest development in his grandfather's case. I'll be continuing to follow this story as updates come in, so stay tuned for more, because I have a feeling I'll be back very soon. In the meantime, if you feel particularly passionate about everything that's happened with this case and some of the events that are still ongoing, I encourage you to write email or call the North Carolina Attorney General's office or the Governor of North Carolina who has clemency power. The contact information for the Attorney General's office can be [e-mail] I'll also link to it in the Show Notes and blog post for this episode. A lot of people online have asked me what they can do to help Rayshawn and Nathaniel right now. They're currently represented by Christine Muma, who is the Executive Director of the North Carolina center on Actual Innocence. That organization is a nonprofit, so if you want to make a contribution or impact there, you can. I've linked to their website directly in the Show Notes as well. Counterclock is an Audio Chuck production. The series is researched and reported by me, Delia d' Ambra I think Chuck would approve.

[Jessica Black]

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[Mark Rabel]

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[Delia d' Ambra]

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