CounterClock – Season 7: Jousting (Update)

Podcast: CounterClock
Host: Delia D’Ambra
Episode: Season 7: Jousting (Update)
Date: August 29, 2025

Episode Overview

This special update episode, hosted by investigative journalist Delia D’Ambra, delivers a gripping real-time account of the dramatic August 2025 exonerations in the Winston Salem 5 case. After two decades in the shadow of conviction for the 2002 murder of Nathaniel Jones, five men—convicted as teenagers—finally see their case overturned by a landmark judicial ruling. The episode explores the emotional fallout, the legal "jousting" between defense and prosecutors, and the deeply personal costs of wrongful conviction on individuals and families. Listeners are taken into the heart of the legal battle, with candid reflections from the defense team, exonerees, key witnesses, family members, and journalists.

Main Themes

• The fight against wrongful convictions in America
• The power and peril of witness testimony and coerced confessions
• Legal system complexities: Post-conviction legal maneuvers and the "jousting" between defense and state
• The lingering impact on those accused, their families, and the victim’s family
• Broad questions about justice, closure, and the difficulty of reversing deeply entrenched prosecutions

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Exoneration of the Winston Salem 5

[01:20]–[05:18]

• Delia introduces the episode, highlighting her year-long investigation into the convictions of five young men for Nathaniel Jones' 2002 murder.
• After years of asserting their innocence, an evidentiary hearing in January 2025 led to Superior Court Judge Robert Brody vacating their convictions—with prejudice, meaning the charges cannot be refiled.
• The judge’s decision was based on recanted testimony by Jessica Black, new DNA evidence, and research on adolescent psychology and false confessions.

Mark Rabel (on the scope of the judge’s ruling):
"Not only did he rule for us on all the claims that we presented, but he dismissed the case with prejudice, which means it couldn't be refiled, which is pretty strong." — [05:18]

2. Mixed Emotions and Immediate Impact

[05:30]–[10:34]

• The defense team, exonerees, and their loved ones describe shock, relief, and decades of emotional weight; some literally scream in the streets at the news.
• Jermal Toliver and Christopher Bryant, already released, celebrate having convictions expunged at last. Rayshawn Banner and Nathaniel Cawthon are poised to walk out as free men.
• Jessica Black, whose recantation is pivotal to the exonerations, describes both vindication and lasting guilt for her part in the wrongful convictions.

Jessica Black:
"To be told that you're lying all these years, and then for someone to really listen and take you seriously... Like they didn't care." — [10:34]

Theresa Ingram Banner (mother):
"I let out the biggest, biggest, biggest scream I could. So overjoyed, the tears couldn't even begin to try to stop. That's how many was cried and yelled so loud to the people on the streets heard me." — [12:40]

3. The State’s Resistance and Legal Jousting

[13:21]–[21:26]

• The initial celebratory mood is cut short—just hours after Judge Brody's ruling, Forsyth County prosecutors seek a stay to keep Rayshawn and Nathaniel imprisoned during appeal.
• Despite the Superior Court denying the first stay, the North Carolina Attorney General’s Office successfully petitions the Court of Appeals, and the two men remain incarcerated.
• The episode delves into the "medieval" legal technicalities deployed by prosecutors—focusing on procedure over substance, and raising issues of finality versus justice.

Mark Rabel:
"They somehow talked the attorney general's office into agreeing to make ridiculous arguments to pursue a stay of the ruling to keep Nathaniel and Rashawn locked up... You don't lock away innocent people and use technicalities." — [19:30]

4. Importance of Recanted Testimony

[16:33]–[18:10]

• Jessica Black’s recantation is presented as the linchpin. Without her testimony, there is virtually no case left against the five men.

Michael Hewlett:
"She was the linchpin. She was the key. It was her testimony that sealed their fate. So it is extraordinary that the judge believed her when she said, all those years ago, I lied." — [16:56]

5. Systemic Critique and Societal Impact

[21:26]–[25:13]

• Discussion of why prosecutors resist overturning convictions: concerns about finality, electoral motivations, institutional pride, and deference to the victim’s family’s ongoing pain.
• Journalists raise concerns about juvenile justice system flaws and the dangers of confessions obtained from minors under duress.

Michael Hewlett:
"The tragedy of wrongful convictions is that while prosecutors spend a lot of time trying to uphold a wrongful conviction, it means that the actual perpetrator has gotten away with it. This is really about, what do we mean when we talk about justice?" — [25:13]

6. The Uncertain Path Forward

[27:19]–[30:11]

• Various legal scenarios are discussed—including further appeals, remands, or political resolutions via clemency.
• Defense vows to continue fighting as a united team until Rayshawn and Nathaniel are free.
• The human toll of lost years is keenly felt: families plan reunions; Jessica Black expresses enduring regret and a longing for forgiveness.

Jessica Black:
"I am so sorry. I cannot tell y'all how sorry I am. I've told y'all so many times over the years, and I will never be done telling you how sorry I am. I love y' all, and I hope that y' all get the lives you deserve." — [29:33]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It's almost like trying to resurrect the dead. It really is."
  — Mark Rabel, describing the power of freeing the wrongly convicted [08:38]

• "We was never free until this weight was lifted off of us."
  — Christopher Bryant, on the emotional burden of a wrongful conviction [09:11]

• "Look at all the time they missed. That's the time you can't get back."
  — Jessica Black, on the irreparable loss suffered by the men and their families [10:57]

• "They just want to save face. The problem... is prosecutors... don't like to accept change. I don't know, it's about electability and pride."
  — Mark Rabel [23:01]

• "The stories that we've done as journalists raise some uncomfortable questions... How comfortable are we... with a conviction based on [coerced confessions from] kids?"
  — Michael Hewlett [25:13]

Timeline of Important Segments

• [01:20] – Background on the Winston Salem 5 and news of their exoneration
• [04:03] – Mark Rabel on the legal arguments and case law
• [06:26] – Reactions from legal team as the judge’s decision arrives
• [07:48] – What Brody’s order meant for each of the men
• [09:11] – Christopher Bryant on the emotional toll
• [10:34] – Jessica Black’s experience recanting and its impact
• [12:40] – Theresa Ingram Banner’s joy at her sons’ exoneration
• [13:21] – Prosecutors immediately seek to keep two men in prison
• [16:33] – Legal obstacles and lack of remaining case against the men
• [18:10] – DA Jim O’Neill’s shock and reaction
• [19:30] – Attorney General’s Office files successful motion to keep men incarcerated
• [22:03] – Theresa on the ongoing uncertainty for her sons
• [23:38] – The victim’s family’s reaction and pursuit of closure
• [25:13] – Critique of the justice system’s handling of juvenile confessions
• [27:24] – Range of legal possibilities moving forward
• [29:22] – Families preparing for reunification
• [29:33] – Jessica Black’s heartfelt hopes for eventual forgiveness

Conclusion & Next Steps

The episode closes with Delia urging listeners to learn more, get involved through advocacy or charitable support, and stay tuned for updates, as legal and political maneuvers continue to unfold. She spotlights the ongoing fight for true justice—not just for the wrongly convicted, but for all those touched by the ripple effects of systemic failure.

Resource Links

• North Carolina Attorney General’s Office contact: NCDOJ.gov
• North Carolina Center on Actual Innocence: nccai.org (nonprofit representing the men)
• More details and supporting documents: See episode show notes