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CounterClock
Season 8: Bonus Q&A
00:40:01
Host Delia D’Ambra and special guest, Ashley Flowers, discuss the lingering questions from the Lane Bryant homicides investigation. Delia reveals what she’s learned since the season was released, and how those closest to the case are responding to it being featured on such an in-depth podcast series.
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- [00:00]
Amica Insurance Announcer
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- [00:32]
Delia d'Ambra
Hi, counterclock listeners. I'm your host, Delia d', Ambra, and welcome to the bonus Q and A episode for season eight. Joining me today is the one, the only, Ashley Flowers.
- [00:41]
Ashley Flowers
Hi, everybody.
- [00:42]
Delia d'Ambra
Ashley, I feel like season eight was such a long wait and, like, it was a long time coming for everyone, but in a lot of the ways, like, it doesn't feel like that much time passed between now and when season seven wrapped. Yeah, like, it feels like just a couple weeks ago that we first got on the call about whether, like, Lane Bryant Murders should be the focus of. Of the next season. I know.
- [00:59]
Ashley Flowers
I mean, I think we probably first chatted about this, like, a year and a half ago, which was like, a few weeks after I posted that TikTok. So if you have any connection to this case, if you know anything, if you are local and you've heard anything, please get in touch. You can DM me, you can email tips at Audio Chuck, but this is where I need you guys. Do your TikTok thing. I thought crime Junkie was going to be looking into it, but, like, at the same time, I always say, like, podcasting years or, like, dog years. Like, time is not real in podcasting. That could have happened, like, five minutes ago. Like, all blends together. It does. Like, yeah.
- [01:31]
Delia d'Ambra
And I think you can definitely lose track of things. But I think, like, it felt like, though, so many times, like, I would get a fire hose of documents and information, then I'd, like, tuck myself into, like, my office cave for a couple weeks, and then I'd go back to Illinois and it would be like drinking from, like, a fire hose.
- [01:45]
Ashley Flowers
I know I would, like, you would go dark. I always know when you're in catacomb because you, like, go dark on me for, like, a couple of weeks and then you, like, arise. And I'm like, oh, she's got a new tidbit.
- [01:51]
Heather
And you call me.
- [01:52]
Ashley Flowers
I go in those, like, frantic. They're my favorite. I wish people could hear. And I never think to record it, but I was like, oh, I wish, like, the fans could hear the way that you light up when you're like, I found something. It's, like, my favorite.
- [02:01]
Delia d'Ambra
I feel like, though, like, my hyperactive, like, calls reached their absolute zenith whenever, like, I was flying back from interviewing people in Tinley Park. That was, like, the absolute zenith of me being excited.
- [02:13]
Ashley Flowers
I think you called me from the airport after your, like, first or your second trip, and that's when you, like, had found the court cases about Rhoda's financial stuff and, like, the foreclosure case that had Connie's name on it. And you were like, like, what does this mean? We would spiral and spiral.
- [02:29]
Delia d'Ambra
I am always screaming something, like, into the phone, like, to you. Because it does feel like whenever I put a ton of time and energy into searching for something, especially if it requires physically going to dig through court records, it truly feels like I struck gold when I find something I wasn't expecting to find.
- [02:47]
Ashley Flowers
Do you remember the moment where we thought you found something that turned out to be nothing?
- [02:53]
Delia d'Ambra
I know. I was like, I found it. I've made the connection. And then I was like, oh, wait, no.
- [02:57]
Ashley Flowers
It was like, Adelia had found a woman who was connected to someone who was a suspect. And then that woman had worked at Lane Bryant. We're like, finally we understand why. And it was like, the wrong woman.
- [03:07]
Delia d'Ambra
No, it was just totally wrong. But I do feel like there were just moments after moments like that in this investigation. But here we are still with so many unanswered questions.
- [03:17]
Ashley Flowers
I know.
- [03:17]
Delia d'Ambra
I think between the DMs, the show's email inbox, and the fan club, everything that the team went through, I think it was close to 100 submissions from listeners. But predating all of those inquiries were people who wanted to know one thing, which is when some counterclock merch was gonna drop.
- [03:34]
Michelle Talos
I know.
- [03:34]
Ashley Flowers
And we heard you guys. So if you didn't already know, we did do a limited counterclock drop. There is T shirts, ball caps. They're not gonna be around for much longer, so go buy before they're gone.
- [03:45]
Heather
Yeah.
- [03:46]
Delia d'Ambra
I think, though, next to that, like, the number one question this season by far was, why hasn't investigative genetic genealogy been used or explored since there is DNA? And my answer is, I have to believe that it is being explored at this point.
- [04:03]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah. Like, otherwise. Yeah, I mean, it's too. It's too popular. It's too well known, and this is such a big case for that area. If they have enough to be doing that with, it has to be happening, right?
- [04:16]
Delia d'Ambra
Yeah. And, like, when I spoke with Chief Tilton over the phone and like, say this in the show. He told me, like, very cryptically, that, like, the department was getting very close to something big. And then he, like, Ashley, he, like, paused and said, like, they would have a story to tell soon. Like, very soon.
- [04:34]
Ashley Flowers
Also, like, how.
- [04:35]
Delia d'Ambra
But how long ago was that? This was over a year ago now. And it was, like, the strangest pause in a conversation that I've had with an official in, like, a very long time. It was just very strange how he delivered it. And I think after he said the statement, I was just like, okay. Like, then, like, we didn't, like, stay on the phone very much, like, longer after that. But I. I take that statement, like, the way he said it, as, like, trying to tell me that, like, whatever they're working on is something they have to wait for themselves. And so he literally couldn't say anything more until he has more information, which, to me, just extrapolating based on our experience, all the conversations we have, I would argue that whatever he was referring to, it has to be associated with advancements in forensic testing, which is why it's taking so long.
- [05:21]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah. And I know. I mean, the work we've done with Season of Justice, I know that that kind of stuff takes a while. The analyzing the DNA itself doesn't take very long. But when you're trying to run down the family trees, and I. Especially with, like, certain populations, like, they have, like, fewer people who have submitted DNA, and it becomes harder and harder. I actually remember with the Carmen Van Huss case, they had a really hard time. Like, they had this profile. They had, like, connected it to a family tree, but then it was like, a year and a half before they actually, like, got it down to the right person. Because especially if you have to go out and, like, door to door, like, get samples and stuff, that part of it can take a long time.
- [05:57]
Delia d'Ambra
In my mind. There's no doubt that police have DNA in this case. Like, they have said as much publicly for years. But I think, though, the nagging question that's never been answered is, where is that DNA from? Like, what piece of evidence in the case is it from?
- [06:12]
Ashley Flowers
I thought it was. I guess I always thought it was from, like, Connie's fingernails, or at least that's, like, the assumption that I was making.
- [06:16]
Delia d'Ambra
Yeah. So, like, it could be. I mean, that's probably, like. That's probably where it came from, like, based on statements that her family has made about, like, her fighting back and,
- [06:25]
Ashley Flowers
like, you know, I guess that's why I was.
- [06:27]
Delia d'Ambra
But I guess, yeah, it seems the Most likely to me and to a lot of people. But police have, like, never specifically said that, like, she is the source of the DNA. I know that the former commander of Tinley park pd, Rick Bruno, he told me, like, numerous items of evidence were collected from the victims in the crime scene, and those were believed to have the perpetrator's DNA on them. But as far as which of those items were or are better suited for, like, analysis now with all the technology,
- [06:54]
Ashley Flowers
imagine duct tape, too, right? We know that he brought his own
- [06:58]
Delia d'Ambra
duct tape, and, like, he did touch, like, their clothing. He touched their purses and things like that. So the point is, is that the killer left traces of himself behind. And my hope is that police are focused on whatever piece of evidence they have that feels like the strongest for analysis right now, like, in 2026. But speaking of DNA, from looking at the responses that came in, like, a ton of questions had to do with ruling Raymond Maddox in or out via genetic testing.
- [07:29]
Amica Insurance Announcer
Raymond.
- [07:30]
Delia d'Ambra
I know we've talked so much about Raymond. So the day before, for all the episodes dropped, on the 28th, I actually got a call from the former Skokie PD officer Tim Grammons, who told me that he had literally just sent another note to the current detective with Tinley Park.
- [07:47]
Ashley Flowers
He's, like, on it.
- [07:47]
Delia d'Ambra
I know. He's so on it. Encouraging him to, like, consider comparing Raymond's DNA to the Lane Bryant evidence, like, was, like, on it again, telling him
- [07:55]
Ashley Flowers
because they have all of his clothes and stuff from when he was killed in August 2008. Right? Like, all that stuff is still in storage.
- [08:01]
Amica Insurance Announcer
Yes.
- [08:02]
Delia d'Ambra
And that's what I'm saying. It's literally all right there. Evidence with Raymond's genetic material is still with police in Northbrook, Illinois. But I think, though, like, to say, for whatever reason, maybe it's degraded, right? Like, if it's blood or something that's, like, not fresh to get a good sample from. But he's got a bunch of kids. Yes. Like, Raymond has several children. Some of them are adults. Some are still minors. He's also got siblings who are still alive. So I think obtaining a fresh sample of his DNA for comparison is completely possible. But I have to say, like, given his, like, documented affiliation with the Gangster Disciples organization, I think it would be difficult for police to get samples, like, willingly, necessarily, like, from people, like, depending on, like, if they go door knocking, who they approach.
- [08:48]
Ashley Flowers
Maybe that's why it's taking so, like,
- [08:50]
Delia d'Ambra
how they go about getting the samples. Like, one of the things I was
- [08:53]
Ashley Flowers
wondering about, though, I was thinking, like, with his voice, like, someone, I think, even asked this, like, yeah, if police have, like, all of this, like, I mean, they've got the 911 call. Like, don't they have. Do they have samples of his voice that they could, like, compare it to?
- [09:06]
Delia d'Ambra
Yes. So that is actually something that, like, Tim Grimmons and I, like, talked about on our frantic phone call before the season dropped. Like, it's a legitimate question because, again, everything is right there. Like, we have Raymond's voice from the diversion call that he made to Northbrook police right before the bank robbery, which is, like, ultimately resulted in his death. And he speaks for, like, minutes on that call. You can tell, like, he's kind of putting on, like, a bit of an act, like, because of the way he's speaking to the 901.
- [09:34]
Ashley Flowers
Disney might sound, like, a little bit different.
- [09:35]
Delia d'Ambra
Yeah. Like, his voice, it's still there, though. And we also know that Tinley Park Police Department has, like, more of the Lane Bryant suspect's voice from Rhoda's 911 call because, like, they have the unedited, like, full version of that call. So it's not just the spliced up 30 seconds that, like, has always been out to the media. So I think the answer to that question is yes. Like, Raymond's voice should be analyzed further and possibly compared to the perpetrator's voice from The Lane Bryant 911 audio to like, see if, like, the experts, you know, not us, but, like, the experts
- [10:09]
Ashley Flowers
think it's similar, actually totally unrelated. But Speaking of the 911 call, tell everyone, like, the weird connection that you had to the guy that owned the house from, like, that 911 call.
- [10:21]
Michelle Talos
Yes.
- [10:21]
Delia d'Ambra
Okay, so that was the wildest thing ever that truly, like, it was the wildest thing that's happened to me for a while when it comes to, like, door knocking. So to make a long story short for viewers and listeners, when I was researching Cliff Selley, who's the man whose home in Illinois Raymond Maddox used as the diversion address back in 2008, I ended up finding an address for Cliff that was, like, current that I was like, okay, this guy's probably living here right now. When I mapped its location from, like, the temporary rental where me and my family were living at the time, it was literally around the corner from our house. I could have walked there through the bushes. That is how close it was.
- [11:02]
Ashley Flowers
It was like. I remember you're like, what are the odds? Again, this is a case that, like, happened in Illinois.
- [11:08]
Delia d'Ambra
You are in A. I can't.
- [11:09]
Ashley Flowers
I don't know. It's like, it's always when I'm like, somehow I swear these cases, like, find you and know that you're like, the one.
- [11:16]
Delia d'Ambra
When I tell you how quickly I ran into our living room and told my husband, like, we have to get in the car now immediately and go to this guy's house.
- [11:23]
Ashley Flowers
So you didn't even need a car?
- [11:24]
Delia d'Ambra
No, Like, I was like, yes, we have to go right now. So we went there, but, like, I did not find Cliff right away. His buddy who was home told me he back in like five minutes. And guy was super nice. So we literally drove around in a circle in Cliff's neighborhood until we saw him come home. Like, there was no truck there. Then there was a truck there. I get out of the car, I door, knock again. And he immediately was like, oh, this is about that bank thing. Yes, I'll do an interview. So, like, also, I don't think I told you this or not that he was like, due to fly out of the country for several months and was, like, going to be in Panama, like, leaving the very next day. So, like, had I not.
- [12:07]
Ashley Flowers
You did not tell me that had
- [12:08]
Delia d'Ambra
I not gone the moment I found out, like, where he was living, I would have missed him by, like, I don't know how long, but it would
- [12:15]
Ashley Flowers
have been like that. You have such better luck than I do. Because I feel like anytime we get into a cold case, what I end up finding is I have like, terrible timing and that it's like a decades old case and it's like the suspect or somebody I really need to talk to, like, literally died like a month before we started looking into it or something like that like that. Your luck is unbelievable.
- [12:31]
Delia d'Ambra
Yes. I think that's always really hard and a challenge, but so far I have a pretty good track record. Some other questions people had which were kind of along the lines of whether the Lane Bryant murders were done by, like, a career criminal. They had to do with the ruse that the killer used to gain entry to the store. I think because I explored, like, someone like Raymond Maddox, who was documented as using disguises or placing diversion calls. One listener asked whether or not the incident that TPPD was already responding to at the target. I know where you're going with this. They were like, wait a minute, was that call legit or not?
- [13:08]
Ashley Flowers
Honestly, like, sometimes you get like, so deep in it, you're like, you can't see the forest through the trees. And it was when I was listening to the Final edits of the show that I was like, oh, could that have been a decoy call too? And, like, I didn't even get a chance to ask you, like, do you know, like, did you get the records for that? Do we know what that call was even for? Or who was, like, serviced or what?
- [13:29]
Delia d'Ambra
This is the frustrating thing. So I know that a police officer was there, and so we're paramedics, but I have actually heard a few different versions from people, like, on the force in the community of, like, what specifically like, that response was for. So one source told me it was a report for shoplifting. Someone else told me it was a.
- [13:48]
Ashley Flowers
Why would there be an emf?
- [13:49]
Delia d'Ambra
I know the other person said it was a medical assistance call. And then someone else told me it was like a fender bender in the parking lot.
- [13:56]
Ashley Flowers
But, like, none of that. Like, they're not even similar things.
- [13:58]
Delia d'Ambra
I know. So, like, to me, that's why I submitted a Freedom of Information act request to the village of Tinley park asking for all emergency calls to Brookside Marketplace on February 2, 2008. Like, I wanted to know, like, everything that was there, like, capture everything for that address. But the village denied my request because they said that that information was part of the ongoing homicide investigation. Yeah, so.
- [14:23]
Ashley Flowers
So you are saying. It's really so.
- [14:25]
Delia d'Ambra
I'm like, so what, what are you saying? So what's interesting is I submitted a similar FOIA for all the calls to the Tinley Park Mental Health center property, which is like, right down the street. And the village fulfilled that request. They sent me like, dozens and dozens of pages of docum. I have not been able to determine for sure, like, what the call for service was that brought that, like, first Tinley park police officer to Brookside Marketplace, like, right before the murders, which is, like, critical in my mind.
- [14:54]
Ashley Flowers
Really weird. Were you able to find, like, the officer that responded, like, the ems? Did you find them?
- [14:58]
Amica Insurance Announcer
Oh, yeah.
- [14:59]
Delia d'Ambra
Like, I did that officer, but he. He didn't want to be involved or like, like really do. Even, like an off record interview. Um, so it's kind of a huge question mark. I mean, and I had, like, a pretty good line to him.
- [15:11]
Amica Insurance Announcer
Yeah.
- [15:11]
Delia d'Ambra
Uh, it's clear though. Like, right, like, at the end of the day, somebody called police in EMS for help that, like, they didn't go there for no reason. What we don't know, like, why isn't
- [15:21]
Ashley Flowers
that person come forward?
- [15:22]
Delia d'Ambra
I know, but we don't know is if that call was, like, legit or, like, even like, a call for help. Like, I Don't know. It's. It's, it's wild. But when you realize, though, that Raymond Maddox did make a diversion call, like, right before he robbed that bank in Northbrook, like, it begs the question, right? Like, did something like that happen on the morning of the Lane Bryant murders as well?
- [15:43]
Ashley Flowers
But, like, the one. The one thing I have with that, though, like, as I was thinking about it is I was like, it almost like, is bad for them, though, because it was so close that why would you do a diversion in, like, the same parking lot? That's the only thing that I couldn't make sense of. I was like, you would think you would want the diversion to be somewhere else and to be, like, a little bit bigger.
- [16:01]
Delia d'Ambra
And the only thing I can think is that, you know, the target, how it faces Lane Bryant or how it did at the time, it would have faced the front door of Lane Bryant. And so if you were going to go in through the back of the Lane Bryant, like, it would have been like, a whole building would have separated you from being seen. So, but, like, again, this is.
- [16:21]
Ashley Flowers
But why even call them to begin with them? They don't. They don't have to be there.
- [16:23]
Delia d'Ambra
And at the end of the day, like, Tinley Park Police could, like, easily clear up. Was this legit? Was it not? What was the origin?
- [16:29]
Ashley Flowers
Why won't they. I know they have the records. Like, it's their responding officers again, in my mind, if it had nothing to do with it, that would be an easy thing for them to say. There's no reason for you to talk about this. Instead, they're like, we can't give you this because it's related to an ongoing investigation.
- [16:46]
Delia d'Ambra
But this is what's super puzzling to me is, like, they have the dash cam footage from that officer, or at least they should still have it. And like I mentioned in the first episode, I think that Tinley Park Police Department dash cam is like, what they released is how we know, like, the officer's response time was like, 10:46am because in the dash cam images that we license from America's Most Wanted, it's the perspective, though. Like, that timestamp is on the perspective of the dashcam from another officer pulling up a lot.
- [17:17]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah.
- [17:17]
Delia d'Ambra
Yeah. So it's like, likely the one that got there, like, after the initial responding one. So it's not the first officer's dash cam that, like, anyone has ever seen.
- [17:26]
Ashley Flowers
Right.
- [17:26]
Delia d'Ambra
And I'm like, like, there's already a police cruiser there from the perspective we see. So, like, where is this stuff. And I. I would actually love to see that first officer's video because in
- [17:34]
Ashley Flowers
my mind, it could show, like, the suspect, possibly those vehicles that they got away in. Like, but. Because then why would we be using the target footage that they had to get NASA to, like, enhance? Like, what did that camera see?
- [17:45]
Delia d'Ambra
And I think, too, like, the importance for me, for the first officer's dash cam is even though it's something that they're probably never going to release, so long as the case is active, like, it's going to show, it could be, like, a good thing for them, too. Like, how quickly it got there.
- [18:00]
Ashley Flowers
Like, what I know, all of navigating,
- [18:02]
Delia d'Ambra
like, navigating that parking lot, anything that it sees. But, like. And again, it's like, 18 years later at this point. Like, I don't see a ton of harm that could come from putting it out there because one, it would answer the question of, like, what the officer was called to the plaza for to begin with. And it would give that firsthand perspective of him going through the parking lot, like, between, like, that stretch between Target and Elaine Bryant. And, like, that's all happening after the 911 call was placed. But, like, I think the firsthand perspective that probably most listeners wanted to know the most about, though, and they had questions about was the survivor
- [18:42]
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- [19:01]
Delia d'Ambra
So a lot of people wanted to know what the survivor heard and saw in those 40 minutes that she and the other victims were with the suspect inside this store. And, like, again, wouldn't we all love to know?
- [19:13]
Ashley Flowers
I know, and I. And you got pretty close to, like, trying to talk to her, right? But, like, she never got back to you.
- [19:18]
Delia d'Ambra
Right? Like, and I don't necessarily, like, fault her for that at this point. Like, she's. She is still the only living eyewitness to this crime. So, like, journalistically, I felt like I went as far as I could, like, go appropriately to reach out to her, like, to do an interview. Like, and at the end of the day, I have to remember, too. Like, her memories are her memories, and I don't want to, like, inadvertently make her question her recollection, like, by me going in there, like, dumping, like, everything that I know and all the interviews and stuff. Like, I don't want to, like, mess her up in any way.
- [19:46]
Ashley Flowers
Did police ever, like, circle back to her in all these years or did it was really just like that initial statement that she gave back in like 2008.
- [19:51]
Delia d'Ambra
I don't know the last time that they checked in with her, I know like for a short period of time she was under like that protection, but that only was like for a couple of months. For the better part of the last 18 years, like she's just been out there living her life. What I can say is that from speaking with her former partner, this crime, like it took a toll on her big time.
- [20:11]
Ashley Flowers
Oh, I can im Yeah, I don't, I don't.
- [20:13]
Delia d'Ambra
I don't think she's ever really been able to like recover from it. At least not from what I've been told. Two things though, I think her statements to police from back in 2008 could clear up pretty quickly though are one, did she and Rhoda go to the bank the morning of the crime, like before the store opened? And two, has she ever sat down? This goes back to the like, voice, right? Has she ever sat down with the 911 call audio and told police, like, what the suspect was shouting while he was in the store with all the victims? Like, what were some of the things that he was saying that we can't hear?
- [20:45]
Ashley Flowers
Right. Then she like interprets some of those, like, hard to hear parts for police. They had to have done that. Right.
- [20:50]
Delia d'Ambra
I like, where are the gaps that need to be filled and did she fill them? But I don't know if she's been allowed to listen to the full 911 call again. That's really held tight by police.
- [21:00]
Ashley Flowers
I mean, I would assume they would let her. She was like, there. She was there for it.
- [21:02]
Delia d'Ambra
You'd think it'd be valuable.
- [21:04]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah.
- [21:04]
Delia d'Ambra
All I know though is that she did give a statement to the police back in the day and I have to think they did like follow up interviews with her. But like beyond that, I don't know how much like they actually got.
- [21:14]
Ashley Flowers
The first question is interesting though, because didn't the other employee that you interviewed, and I can't remember her, Erica Carstens. Yeah, Erica Carsons.
- [21:23]
Heather
Yeah.
- [21:24]
Ashley Flowers
Didn't she say that the bank deposits were typically in the mornings?
- [21:27]
Delia d'Ambra
Yes.
- [21:28]
Ashley Flowers
Like, I'm like, I honed in on this question so quick and early. Like I was. I got obsessed here for a little while.
- [21:33]
Delia d'Ambra
Yeah. She did say it was like a normal routine for like all the employees who were on shift. They would load into Rhoda's van, like first thing in the morning, like before it opened, take the cash to the bank, it would have been like the cash that was like, in the store's safe and they would make the deposit. But, like, that happened regardless of whether it was a weekend or not. Like, that was normal practice. And then also you have Stuart Gibbs, Rhoda's boyfriend, who, like, offhand mentions this detail too. Like, he says it, people knew that
- [22:03]
Ashley Flowers
this was a thing and they didn't know one another.
- [22:05]
Delia d'Ambra
That's the other thing, too. Erica also said that, like, the day before, so this would have been Friday night when they closed the store. Cause she was working with Rhoda when they closed together, that they had made quite a few sales. And in her recollection, like, some of those would have been like, credit card. You know, probably more credit card than cash. But they, like, they did have money that would likely had to have been taken to the bank on Saturday morning. So again, we, like, circle back around to the question is, like, did that bank run happen? And if it did, is that a possible reason why the killer targeted, like, that particular Lane Bryant story? It's all about that store, why that happened.
- [22:42]
Ashley Flowers
But then the thing I remember talking about this, talking about this with you early on is that, like, the thing I always felt was that if that was the case, it would have been so much easier to target the two of them when they were, like, alone in the parking lot or, like, on the way to the bank, or like, rather than, like, in the store after they would have presumably, like, already taken the money.
- [23:05]
Delia d'Ambra
It's. Yeah, it makes you think, like, okay, like, you would have intercepted them at like, an easier point in time, like, with less attention?
- [23:11]
Ashley Flowers
Or isn't the money at this point by, like, 10am isn't the money. Like, don't you assume now that the money's gone, the money's at the bank, the money's not at the store.
- [23:16]
Delia d'Ambra
But, like. And I. I talk about this in one of the episodes towards the end is like, did he see the bank bag and think like, they were bringing money in? Like, if you see them or observe them or, like, have any idea.
- [23:28]
Ashley Flowers
But then it feels like then it. Then it feels like it can't be planned because then you, like, you would know the routine.
- [23:34]
Delia d'Ambra
Yeah, I don't know.
- [23:35]
Ashley Flowers
It's like this. This part just drives. There's something about this. Like, this drives me nuts. And I feel like this is another easy thing that I feel like we should know. Did they go to the bank or not that day?
- [23:43]
Delia d'Ambra
Yeah.
- [23:43]
Ashley Flowers
Cause also if they didn't go, then, then that Is, like, huge motive for why he came in there. Because then there's, like, a bunch more cash that we're not aware of. But the police are only saying he.
- [23:53]
Delia d'Ambra
It's the survivor. The survivor would be able to, like, clear that up very quickly. I also think, like, if this wasn't a robbery and it was a hit on Rhoda or one of the other victims, like, the survivor would have picked up on that, too. Like, don't you.
- [24:07]
Ashley Flowers
Right. Because, like, in that scenario, if the killer had been particularly aggressive with one of them, like, say, Rhoda, like, seemed like they targeted her, I assume the survivor would have told police that.
- [24:17]
Delia d'Ambra
Yeah, I feel like, like, the survivor would have keyed in on him, like, being there for one person in particular, like, given the amount of time, isn't there, like.
- [24:25]
Ashley Flowers
Isn't there something to be said, though, for the fact that, like, only Connie had. Or maybe we only have DNA evidence from Connie. If we have DNA evidence from Connie, like, it does seem like they talk about him, like, fondling one of them. So it does. It, like, it does seem like there is at least some indication that he was focused on one person and were still asking the question about robbery.
- [24:45]
Delia d'Ambra
Yeah, I think there was, like, signs.
- [24:48]
Ashley Flowers
Right.
- [24:48]
Delia d'Ambra
Like, he could have been focused because of, like, the. That element of the crime. But, yeah, it's. It's a confusing detail, which, again, I think would be reflected more of, like, what the survivor remembered. Like, she could.
- [24:59]
Ashley Flowers
Did really. Did anyone that, like, with the police that you interviewed, like, say anything about that?
- [25:04]
Delia d'Ambra
They didn't. Former Commander Rick Bruno was. He was, like, definitely in the know. And he didn't mention the survivor saying anything about it. Seeming like a hit job, like, that she picked up on, like, okay, this person and was here for so and so. But if it was a hit, like, again, I don't think the killer, like, would have necessarily been obvious about that. He wouldn't have come and be like, okay, I'm here for so and so. Like, I don't know.
- [25:24]
Ashley Flowers
I also don't think the hit job used to. I still come back to, like, the time in there, like, yeah, and there's for. So I know.
- [25:31]
Delia d'Ambra
And he would have wanted it to seem like a robbery gone wrong.
- [25:36]
Ashley Flowers
Maybe that's why. I don't know.
- [25:37]
Delia d'Ambra
A couple of people asked whether the normal delivery workers at the plaza or even people who had maybe, like, stopped delivering, like, prior to the crime were questioned or looked at that as possible suspects. But my answer is, I don't know. I mean, like, I have to Assume that the police track those people down as part of the initial investigation.
- [25:53]
Ashley Flowers
I've also stopped assuming a lot these days.
- [25:56]
Delia d'Ambra
Like, but again, like, these are things that we. We don't know for sure. It would be kind of basic police 101. It's a good question. I think, though, whoever committed this crime, they had to have some detailed knowledge of how to go about making that delivery worker ruse, like, work. They would have had to know, like, what door to knock on if Lane Bryant was, like, the intended target for the beginning.
- [26:17]
Ashley Flowers
Because if you think about it like that, I think about how a strip mall looks like, and I know this one looks slightly different now than it did in 2008, but the pictures I saw from when you went back there, when you're behind it, all of the doors for the retail units kind of look the same, right?
- [26:31]
Delia d'Ambra
They do, yeah. Basically, they're the nondescript metal doors with unit numbers on them. And most, if not all the stores, like, even now, they don't have the retailer names on them. Unless you, like, would have seen the front of the individual units and then remembered what unit number, like, went to which unit.
- [26:48]
Amica Insurance Announcer
Right.
- [26:49]
Delia d'Ambra
It, like, would have been hard from behind the plaza to delineate which one specifically was the Lane Bryant store if you just, like, walked up to the back of the plaza.
- [26:56]
Ashley Flowers
So then the killer either had to have, like, scoured out this, like, Brookside Marketplace pretty thoroughly beforehand or known from prior experience which back door belonged to which retailer. And, like, I also think that it's not. It's not like they were going around knocking because we know Sally's beauty, like, didn't get a door knock. Now, granted, where they go in the other way and the other side's vacant.
- [27:16]
Delia d'Ambra
Yeah.
- [27:16]
Ashley Flowers
I don't know. So then where does that leave you with the whole Tinley Park Mental Health center theory, then? Because, like, I saw that there were a couple of people who asked about that.
- [27:26]
Delia d'Ambra
I think where I've landed with that theory, it's. It's possible, right? Like, because of the proximity. I personally feel it's the most unlikely scenario. I mean, just given, like, all the things and factors that, like, would have to align. The listeners who asked about this theory noted, like, same as I did. Like, the question, which is, like, how of a. How would have an escaped patient have gotten a hold of a gun? I mean, yeah, like, yes, they could have been given a gun or found one on the property. I mean, like, we know the property had, like, problems, but, like, that does seem unlikely.
- [27:58]
Heather
Right?
- [27:58]
Ashley Flowers
Also, like, the duct Tape. He's in, like, full clothes, coat, like, the, you know, like, manicured nails, like, especially the duct tape. Where do you get that if you're a patient?
- [28:09]
Michelle Talos
Yeah.
- [28:10]
Ashley Flowers
And.
- [28:10]
Delia d'Ambra
And then again, like, I. I kind of have to, like, go down that avenue like I did in the show.
- [28:14]
Amica Insurance Announcer
Right.
- [28:14]
Delia d'Ambra
Because, like, anything is possible. Like, when you consider how unregulated that property, like, was reported to be, and when you listen closely to what the suspect is believed to be saying in the background of the 911 call, again, we can only hear, like, the little bit we can get from police, and it is kind of inaudible. Like, it does sound like he is someone who is experiencing, like, frustration, agitation, and, like, to me, like, genuinely sounds unwell.
- [28:43]
Ashley Flowers
It's like, it. For me, it's the point where he's like. He's saying. He's like, I'm losing it.
- [28:47]
Heather
Right?
- [28:47]
Delia d'Ambra
Yeah. Like, and. And he does, like, sound that way, and he says that and it. Like, it's that phrase. Right. And like, these other outbursts of, like, what appear to me of him getting more and more upset, like, having, like, mentally breaking down, that he, like, he's,
- [29:02]
Ashley Flowers
like, losing control of the situation is what it felt like to me. I don't know.
- [29:05]
Heather
Yeah.
- [29:05]
Delia d'Ambra
And I feel like him saying those things could have also been because he was, like, literally losing control of the situation. Like, he has taken all of these women hostage. And the fact that there was, like, again, little to no cash there, it could be, like, a lot of things that are making him this agitated.
- [29:22]
Ashley Flowers
Like, do you feel like, at this point, if police ever released more of that 911 call, do you think that would give away more of his mental state? Like, is he just frustrated because he's not getting what he wants? Is he frustrated because he's losing control? Is he frustrated because he's going through something? Do you think we would know?
- [29:37]
Delia d'Ambra
I 100% think so. Like, if we could hear the unredacted raw audio of that call, I think it would be a really big benefit to the case because people would hear him in full context along with, like, whatever I assume the victims were saying in response to his behavior and. Or if they spoke at all. And two, we'd get a better picture of his speech cadence and, like, maybe even how he is saying these things. Like, like Rick Bruno mentioned in his interview, like, reportedly the suspect referred to Tinley park as just. This is a. That, like, gave both their children. He just says Tinley, which I think indicates he is somebody who was likely from that area. Or at least, like, another Chicago suburb. Otherwise, I don't think he would have referred to it in that way. I actually saw, like, a lot of people from the suburbs who were, like, chiming in and leaving comments on social media about this, like, very point.
- [30:33]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah. I have to wonder if, like, we could hear the whole call, if there would be more people out there who would come forward, say, whether they recognize his voice or, like. Or at least, like, the way of talking.
- [30:45]
Michelle Talos
Yeah.
- [30:46]
Delia d'Ambra
The full context would be really helpful because I. I think at this point, it's kind of the same thing I said earlier, which is, like, what harm could it really do if the police just released it? Like, I see more upsides than downsides.
- [30:58]
Ashley Flowers
I agree. The only thing I can, like, think is, like. Like, if what they're protecting is, like, hearing the victims on that call, like, I don't know, how much is, like, him talking over them. How much we. Is, like, him talking while you're actually hearing the murders, which I can understand, like, not releasing, but I kind of agree, like, if. I don't know, there's gotta. There's gotta be more value. And, like, once a case goes cold for this long, it's, like, time to, like, show your cards a little bit.
- [31:23]
Michelle Talos
Yeah.
- [31:23]
Delia d'Ambra
And we're not asking for, like, what physical evidence do you have and where's. Like, where's the DNA on the Nevis? But I think, though, the curiosity piece of that of, like, whether it could be helpful or not. The same goes for revisiting the whole church thing with Rhoda's former church. A couple of questions that came in, they all were asking about that. And you'll get a kick out of this. Like, one submission, the question was just straight up, like, did anyone ever look into whether it was someone in Rhoda's church who could have done this?
- [31:49]
Ashley Flowers
Yes, we did. Like, it is all I've wanted to know since I first heard about this case. I, like, got obsessed with the church,
- [31:56]
Delia d'Ambra
and I feel like. I feel like I spent, like, a very good chunk of time, like, trying to explore this more.
- [32:02]
Ashley Flowers
It was like. It was like the call that we couldn't explain from, like, the burner phone or whatever that was. What? Like, I was like, it has to mean something.
- [32:08]
Delia d'Ambra
As soon as the mayor was like, oh, there were some burner phones involved, I was like, burner phones? Wait a minute. Hold on. Interestingly, this was one of those areas, though, that got, like, kind of sketchy as far as, like, all the church things, because, like, there was nothing good that people had to say to me about what was formerly Embassy Christian center and Embassy Nation Network, which was like the short lived branch in Texas. But like I am still holding out hope that like more and more leads will come in from that avenue of investigation because I have something to show you, Ashley. Something.
- [32:43]
Ashley Flowers
Wait, have I not seen this yet?
- [32:45]
Delia d'Ambra
No, you haven't.
- [32:55]
Ashley Flowers
Wait, is this like legit George Asia who viewed your profile?
- [32:58]
Delia d'Ambra
Yes, this is George Asia, Rhoda's former co pastor. He is my only follower on TikTok as of this recording. Like, he is very active on social media. I purely got TikTok just to make sure I reached out to him on like every platform he's active on.
- [33:14]
Ashley Flowers
So I mean like he has to be like aware that. Do you think he listened or like his ex wife? Do you like, do you know if he listened?
- [33:20]
Delia d'Ambra
I seem to think so. Like they were both at one point like really good friends with Rhoda. Like, I don't, I don't know how they haven't been at least like curious about the podcast. I mean they were like again, very active out there in the world.
- [33:31]
Ashley Flowers
I feel like putting the season out as a binge was like the way to go because it's like the best
- [33:35]
Amica Insurance Announcer
way to get it.
- [33:36]
Ashley Flowers
Just like, like out there in the ears of the right people. Like all the information. You don't have to wait.
- [33:41]
Delia d'Ambra
And there is like proof in that because I literally today, like before we came in to record, I spoke with a woman who wrote in after listening to the whole season and she told me something really interesting. Her name is Heather and she said she first met George Asia in 2022 when they were both like working together at a restaurant. At that time she was like deconverting from Christianity and they became like very fast friends. She was divorced too, and they talked a lot about like in depth stuff in their lives. And George in particular had a lot to say about his former life as a minister. Here, I want, I want you to hear some of her interview for yourself.
- [34:22]
Heather
I was following this case with a lot of interest and I was hearing the name George Asia and I was, you know, learning all about this guy. And then I hear my friend's voice pop up on the podcast and then it was an immediate, you know, like gut reaction, like, wait, that's my friend George. We had a lot of conversations about faith and about leaving faith and about what he used to do and about how bad he felt about having been a pastor and what he felt like was lying to people for decades.
- [34:53]
Delia d'Ambra
What did he say about his time as a pastor.
- [34:57]
Heather
So one of the things that was a takeaway for me, as as opposed to just, like, details, but rather his perspective of it, was that he felt like that was a time when he was kind of chasing personal glory and trying to see, you know, how much he could acquire and how many people he could influence. And he was like, I wasn't doing it for the people, and I wasn't even really doing it for God. He's like, it was really about me and about what I could grow. And he felt like his life was bereft of meaning, and that's why he had to leave to find real meaning in his life.
- [35:37]
Delia d'Ambra
So Heather said that after listening to season eight, she fully believes the information, like, I reported in the show. Like, she believes all of it's true. And she, like, has a lot of questions of her own for her good friend George.
- [35:50]
Heather
I actually have a feeling that if I called him tomorrow and said, hey, can you tell me about this? That. That he would. But I also know that it would be just the way he is, is that he is going to tell me the version of it that he wants me to see, the way he wants me to see him. The thing that. That kind of made me take pause was some of the deeper conversations that we had where it did make me believe that, you know, this is a person who is actually kind of trying to do this honestly. But as far as the details, I mean, he could just be a really good con man. I'm glad I got to talk to you, because I actually was debating if I was going to reach out to him about the podcast, and I actually, I. I think him, in the state that he is in now, mentally, that if he could keep his.
- [36:47]
Delia d'Ambra
His.
- [36:47]
Heather
His loving, the sound of his own voice to a minimum and just be really honest about where he is, I think he could actually, like. I think he could do himself a favor in this case to talk to y' all on the record.
- [37:02]
Ashley Flowers
Did she say if he shared any, like, details about Embassy Christian center or, like, or Rhoda's murder? Like, did that ever come up?
- [37:09]
Delia d'Ambra
No, she said, like, he never, like, mentioned any of that to her, but.
- [37:14]
Ashley Flowers
Which is, like, kind of like. I mean, maybe it was, like, a hard thing you don't talk about, but I'm like, also, she didn't know about
- [37:19]
Delia d'Ambra
any of that, though.
- [37:19]
Ashley Flowers
It feels like a big part of your life to, like, leave or, like, a big thing that happened, right?
- [37:23]
Delia d'Ambra
Yeah. Like, I think it, like, I think it just would come up as part of that conversation, naturally, but it didn't. However, my door is always open, George. If anyone else who was associated with Rhoda's former church, come and talk to me, Write in. I have all the questions.
- [37:40]
Ashley Flowers
Listen. It might not have anything to do with Rhoda or Elaine Bryant, but I cannot shake the feeling that there is a there there when it comes to that church and the history with it. How did, like, are the other, like, victims, family members? Like, how are they doing or how are they reacting to this season? Cause, I mean, this is like. Like, probably, like, the biggest spotlight that's been put on the case in, like, years.
- [38:01]
Delia d'Ambra
Most everyone that I've been in close contact with and talking with a lot, like, they've been really grateful. I mean, they're learning some things they never knew before. They have a lot of the same questions for police that we have. And, like, the suggestions that we have, of course, they're really appreciative that someone, like, with an outside perspective decided to take an interest and did the work to explore the avenues that they felt were never really fully explored or, again, they didn't know about. And now they're like, okay, they should be explored. Michelle Talos, Jennifer Bishop, one of the victim's sisters, wrote me the nicest email about, like, a day or so after we released the episodes in the fan club. She's listened, like, twice all the way through. We spoke via Zoom a few days ago to catch up, and I wanted you to hear of what she had to say.
- [38:50]
Michelle Talos
It was amazing. It was. I. I hate to say that it was entertaining, but you did such a good job at your storytelling.
- [39:01]
Heather
Thanks.
- [39:01]
Michelle Talos
You know, I'd never heard anyone talk from the other employees at Lane Bryant. You just pulled so many avenues into it. That was super interesting to hear their side of things. I'm sure that the people living there still do care that it happened and it wasn't solved. And I just would say, please keep talking about it. Keep talking about it, because somebody's gonna slip up and say something. That's what I'm hoping this. This podcast does. And it's so interesting. I mean, you just. Even me, you can't listen to it and not be like, let's go get this guy. We gotta find him. It's so motivating. You were a perfect example of how much 18 years later you can go and dig up. So there's still a bunch of activity out there based on this case that we could figure out if the right people do their diligence.
- [40:06]
Delia d'Ambra
Thank you, everyone, for listening to season eight. I am hoping that more eyes and ears on this case, especially in the greater Chicago area, will one day lead to it being solved. Until then, I'll be keeping a close eye for any updates.
- [40:19]
Ashley Flowers
And in the meantime, I think you're, what, a few months already into your next case for counterclock, Season nine.
- [40:25]
Delia d'Ambra
It is all gas, no breaks.
- [40:28]
Ashley Flowers
I'm obviously, like, up to speed on what it's about, but are you gonna actually give pins for any or are you going to make them wait?
- [40:32]
Delia d'Ambra
Let's just say I have been talking about this case already and I don't think there's going to be nearly as long of a wait for season nine as there was for season eight.
- [40:42]
Ashley Flowers
You guys heard it here first. Stay tuned.