CounterClock Podcast Episode 10 of 10: Justice?

Release Date: December 6, 2024

Host: Delia D'Ambra
Author: audiochuck
Podcast Description: In order to tell the story of a crime, you have to turn back time. Every season, Investigative journalist Delia D'Ambra digs deep into a mind-bending mystery with the hopes of reigniting interest in a decades-old homicide case.

1. Introduction to the Episode

In the final episode of the series, titled "Justice?", Delia D'Ambra delves into the complexities surrounding a decades-old homicide case, questioning the integrity of the investigation and the pursuit of justice.

2. The Van Ride Incident: Jessica Black's Testimony

Delia introduces the central figure of the case, Jessica Black, whose testimony has been pivotal yet controversial.

• Jessica Black recounts her experience:
  “He had come and picked me up in the van with a woman that he said was his daughter, was Mr. Jones daughter, and said they wanted to take a ride like, and go.”
  [03:07]

Jessica describes a mysterious van ride with Forsyth County's Chief Assistant District Attorney, Eric Saunders, and a woman claiming to be one of the victim's daughters. This encounter left her with lingering doubts about the case.

• Jessica expresses confusion about the van ride:
  “I was like, what? I went on a van ride with a daughter. Like, that's what I was told.”
  [04:43]

3. Doubts and Inconsistencies in the Investigation

Delia highlights inconsistencies that have emerged over the years, particularly regarding the van ride and the identities of those involved.

• Chris Muma questions the prosecutor's actions:
  “Trying to get her to feel the grief of the victim's family. [...] Everybody sweeps that under the rugs, like nobody wants to talk about that.”
  [09:05]

Retired Detective Chuck Byram weighs in on Eric Saunders' reputation, suggesting that the van ride aligns with Saunders' tenacity, albeit unethically.

• Detective Byram on the van ride's legitimacy:
  “Oh, yeah. Of what use could it possibly be in court? None.”
  [09:57]

4. Similar Cases and Patterns of Miscarriage of Justice

Delia draws parallels between Mr. Jones' case and other wrongful convictions in Winston Salem, highlighting systemic issues within the Forsyth County DA's office.

• Michael Hewlett discusses Daryl Hunt's exoneration:
  “It was not until 2000, the end part of 2003, that new DNA testing led to someone else... Willard Brown.”
  [12:37]

• Brad Bannon on prosecutorial stubbornness:
  “It's very clear that Darrell Hunt was innocent. [...] It's that we preserve a conviction.”
  [13:06]

5. The Role of Chris Paul and His Book

Chris Paul, an NBA star and Mr. Jones' grandson, authored a memoir titled "61 Life Lessons from On and off the Court", which delves into his relationship with his grandfather and subtly touches upon the unresolved case.

• Chris Paul reflects on his grandfather's legacy:
  “I keep going back to how old these kids were. 14 and 15 kids. My heart will never believe that sending someone that age away for 50 years is a good idea.”
  [26:27]

Delia points out discrepancies in Chris Paul's book regarding the case, such as incorrect claims about evidence and witness actions.

• Delia addresses inaccuracies in the memoir:
  “The truth is, no one brought it up because it's actually not true. Police never found that Mr. Jones card had been used after the crime.”
  [29:18]

6. The Defendants' Struggle for Exoneration

The episode highlights the ongoing fight of the defendants—Rayshawn Banner, Nathaniel Cawthon, Christopher Bryant, Jamal Toliver, and Darrell Brayboy—to clear their names and seek justice.

• Chuck Byram expresses his desire for justice:
  “I'm sitting up here telling you I did not commit a crime... I have no problem helping if that's one thing I can do.”
  [37:55]

• Nathaniel speaks on the impact of wrongful incarceration:
  “I feel like I'm gonna die with my children still in prison. I don't think that I will be here, but I know for sure that they didn't do it.”
  [38:26]

7. Family Perspectives and Emotional Toll

Delia sheds light on the profound emotional burden carried by both the victims' families and the defendants' families, emphasizing the long-term trauma caused by the unresolved case.

• Teresa, the defendants' mother, shares her pain:
  “When this happened to my sons, they took my whole life away... they destroyed my whole life.”
  [52:22]

Jessica Black appeals for a thorough review of the case, urging the new judge to consider all evidence and acknowledge the defendants' youth and vulnerability at the time of the crime.

• Jessica's plea for justice:
  “Please, please look at everything. From beginning to end.”
  [45:13]

8. The Upcoming Evidentiary Hearing and Future Steps

Delia discusses the imminent evidentiary hearing scheduled for January, which holds the potential to either finally bring justice or further entrench the existing doubts surrounding the case.

• Chris Muma voices concern over plea deals:
  “They might be able to get an offered plea right where they say, I'm maintaining my innocence, but I understand there's risks and so I'm going to plead guilty.”
  [46:31]

Brad Bannon advises that while an Alford plea might offer immediate release, it fails to clear the defendants' names, leaving them perpetually linked to a crime they did not commit.

• Brad Bannon on the implications of an Alford plea:
  “It's important to them, but it's really getting to the point where they are so distrusting of the justice system.”
  [47:35]

9. Conclusion and Call to Action

Delia emphasizes the importance of uncovering the truth, urging listeners to come forward with any information that could shed light on Mr. Jones' murder. She announces a forthcoming Q&A episode to engage with the audience's questions and insights.

• Delia's final thoughts:
  “This story was an extremely comprehensive case to investigate and I'm truly grateful you all tuned in like we always do.”
  [53:18]

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jessica Black:
  “I was in that van for hours.”
  [03:54]

• Chris Muma:
  “Everybody sweeps that under the rugs, like nobody wants to talk about that.”
  [09:05]

• Detective Chuck Byram:
  “Eric was. What's the word? Tenacious.”
  [10:27]

• Michael Hewlett:
  “His family came out and said, no, we believe that these men are guilty.”
  [12:51]

• Jessica Black:
  “And it's clear that we were kids. That they were scared.”
  [45:21]

• Nathaniel:
  “I have no problem helping if that's one thing I can do, because I would want you to have closure.”
  [37:59]

Final Thoughts

Episode 10 of CounterClock serves as a compelling culmination of Delia D'Ambra's investigation into a potentially flawed justice system. Through meticulous storytelling and the inclusion of poignant testimonies, the episode not only revisits the unsolved murder of Mr. Jones but also challenges listeners to question the very foundations of justice and truth.

Stay Tuned:
Delia announces an upcoming Q&A episode in collaboration with Executive Producer Ashley Flowers, inviting listeners to submit their questions for further exploration of the case.

Support and Engagement:
Listeners are encouraged to reach out via email at counterclock@audiochuck.com with any information or insights that could aid in resolving the lingering mysteries of Mr. Jones' death.

This summary aims to provide a comprehensive overview of the episode for those who have not listened, highlighting key discussions, insights, and conclusions drawn throughout the investigative journey.