The Death of Harold Allen, Jr.

Summary

Court Junkie – The Death of Harold Allen, Jr.
Episode Date: June 23, 2026 | Host: PodcastOne

---

Overview

This gripping episode of Court Junkie delves into the highly disturbing and complex case of Harold Allen Jr.—a seemingly straightforward burglary investigation in rural Indiana that unraveled into a story of shocking betrayal, poisoning, and conspiracy within a family. Host Gillian, in partnership with Law & Crime, meticulously traces the path from the initial crime scene through to the discovery of a twisted murder plot, supported by court documents, interviews, and forensic evidence.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Burglary That Sparked it All

• [00:01–04:05]
  Marcia Allen, a recent widow, returned from vacation to find her Indiana home ransacked. Sentimental and valuable possessions—including jewelry from her late husband, firearms, and collectables—were stolen.
  • Notably, Marcia had set up secret surveillance cameras before her trip. Reviewing footage, she recognized Stephen White, her daughter's best friend, and identified the second masked burglar by voice as Nathan, Stephen's husband.
  • Marcia suspected her daughter Ashley was involved, since only she, Harold, and Ashley knew the combination to the burgled safe.

Introducing the Allen Family

• [07:57–12:06]
  Background on Harold Allen Jr.—known as "Peanut"—is provided, along with his marriage to Marcia and their blended family dynamics.
  • Quote [09:49] Lt. Adam Nicholson: "Anybody that knew him just thought he was a great guy, hard worker... his family was crazy about him."
  • Ashley, Marcia’s daughter, shared an unusually close, almost codependent relationship with her mother, marked by daily communication and frequent requests for money.

Police Investigation: Burglary to Murder

• [12:29–17:36]
  Deputies quickly arrested Stephen White, who, confronted with irrefutable camera evidence, not only confessed to the burglary but made serious allegations.
  • Quote [14:55] Stephen White: "This woman’s a fucking murderer, okay? I know that... her husband died of unknown causes in December... according to her, her husband passed away because she needed that life insurance money..."
  • Stephen described a suspicious incident involving a root beer float on Christmas Eve before Harold’s sudden illness and death.

Reviewing Harold’s Death

• [22:24–27:11]
  Marcia was brought in for questioning. At first, detectives pretended to focus only on the burglary.
  • When pressed, Marcia stated Harold died of "pericarditis, that was undetected" and insisted an autopsy confirmed natural causes.
  • Unbeknownst to her, the investigation was shifting focus to possible homicide.

Unveiling the Plot: Digital Evidence and Toxicology

• [26:37–41:40]
  Digital forensics revealed damning text messages between Marcia and Ashley, referencing the delivery and use of "pong pong" seeds (the toxic "suicide tree"), foxglove, hemlock, and ultimately ethylene glycol (antifreeze) as murder weapons.
  • Quote [29:05]: Investigators describe unearthing "45,000 pages of a PDF download" of Marcia’s texts, painstakingly piecing together the murder plot.
  • Detailed messages showed Marcia and Ashley discussing side effects of toxins, masking bitterness in food, and their impatience for Harold’s death. They also referenced occult beliefs, referring to Harold as demon-possessed.
  • Forensic re-testing of Harold’s preserved heart and blood revealed lethal ethylene glycol levels, confirming poisoning.

The Motive: Money & Resentment

• [48:04–52:59]
  Investigation disclosed Marcia stood to gain $110,000 in life insurance and work-related payouts. Post-mortem, Marcia and Ashley quarreled over how to divide Harold’s remaining assets, triggering the burglary plot.
  • Quote [48:41] Lt. Nicholson: "Marsha received the money from his work... like 60,000 and then... like a $50,000 life policy..."

The Unraveling: Second Interviews and Blame

• [58:16–77:38]
  During follow-up interviews, both Marcia and Ashley attempted to shift culpability onto each other, while investigators confronted them with explicit digital and forensic evidence.
  • Quote [62:40] Lt. Nicholson: "We had to, you know, basically play dumb, not let her know we were certain about what happened to Harold..."
  • Ashley ultimately claimed Marcia performed the actual poisoning, but investigators suspected Ashley played the larger role, citing her prior husband’s suspicious death—a new line of inquiry.

The Aftermath: Suicide, Sentencing, and Family Impact

• [83:00–End]
  • Before Marcia could be arrested, she died by suicide.
    • Quote [83:00] Lt. Nicholson: "It was tough losing her in that case because I really wanted her to face justice..."
  • Ashley pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit murder and attempted murder, receiving a 50-year sentence.
    • Ashley at sentencing [83:59]: “My actions have not only taken Harold away from their family, it's taken my mother away from ours. And now I have orphaned my daughter.”
  • Victim Impact: Harold’s loved ones described his talents, kindness, and the deep shock and pain caused by the conspiracy of those closest to him.

---

Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• Marcia upon realizing the betrayal [01:23]: "You're stealing everything that's ever known to man that as my husband's and mine. And are you gonna use my stuff to do it with?"
• Text exchange about poison delivery [41:40]: Lt. Nicholson: "Ashley sends Marsha a message that says the male is here. And it's. And there's a smiley face... she's referring to the ethylene glycol..."
• On occult beliefs and murder [39:43]: Lt. Nicholson: "Through the text messages... it's evident that both were highly believe that stuff."
• Investigators’ disbelief [81:00]: Lt. Nicholson: "Nothing about this case was easy to explain anytime you tried to explain it."
• Harold’s family, at sentencing [83:59]: “You decided multiple times over months to continue to live each day in a home that Peanut provided... hoping this would be the time that you finally took his life... you could make jokes and find a way for him to be responsible for not dying fast enough and calling him lazy. And this is where I see that you are your mother's daughter.”

---

Important Timestamps

• [00:01–04:05]: Burglary discovery, initial suspects, secret camera evidence.
• [09:06–09:49]: Harold Allen's background and his relationship with Marcia and Ashley.
• [12:29–17:36]: Stephen White’s arrest and murder allegations.
• [26:37–41:40]: Forensic phone download and discovery of incriminating messages.
• [43:12–44:26]: The fatal root beer float poison plan.
• [56:21–58:16]: Discovery of preserved heart and blood—definitive forensic breakthrough.
• [58:16–66:13]: Marcia & Ashley confronted with evidence; shifting blame.
• [83:00–83:59]: Marcia’s suicide and Ashley’s sentencing.
• [83:59–End]: Victim impact statements, legacy of the crime.

---

Episode Tone & Style

• Measured, methodical, and investigative, the tone balances heartbreak and procedural rigor.
• Features first-person perspectives, candid quotes, and a focus on the lived experience of victims, their families, and law enforcement.
• Maintains respect for the gravity of the crime yet relays the investigative work and emotional fallout with clear-eyed sobriety.

---

Summary

This episode highlights how a routine criminal case can rip open hidden tragedies, exposing the dark contours of family, greed, and betrayal. Through interviews, court documents, text messages, and forensic science, Court Junkie unpacks how a daughter's greed and a widow's malice conspired to murder Harold Allen Jr., and how a careless burglary—and a talkative burglar—brought the truth to light. In the end, justice is imperfect: with Marcia gone by suicide, only Ashley faces decades behind bars, and Harold’s family must carry the irreplaceable loss.

---

For true crime followers, this episode is a master class in how breakthrough cases unfold—not in the courtroom, but through ceaseless, detail-driven investigation, and an unflinching look at the worst forms of personal betrayal.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Marcia Allen was a widow in her early 50s. And while she was on vacation in 2023, her house back home in Indiana was robbed. They took everything. An upset Marsha told law enforcement officials after she rushed back home. The thieves stole things that were irreplaceable, priceless. Like the necklace Marsha's late husband Harold had bought her. The piece was heart shaped with the word angel on it. Other jewelry the thieves took were adorned with gems.

[Marcia Allen]

It's a real ruby necklace. Everything they took is everything he ever gave me. I have a picture of me wearing the sapphire earrings and necklace in our wedding. And we send you that one too.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, if you think it'll help identify anything and we start going through stuff.

[Narrator]

Marcia sounded heartbroken about what she had lost. Wedding rings, family heirlooms, Harold's Star wars collector's items, a mandolin, a Gibson guitar, antique coins, and guns. More than three dozen firearms were taken. Adding insult to injury, the robbers even used the cart Marsha's mother gave her to haul away the arsenal of guns. Then they snatched the cart, too.

[Interviewer]

There was like a little cart there that he was loading guns.

[Marcia Allen]

Yeah, my mother got me that.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Marcia Allen]

I'm like, really? I'm like, is that nothing? You're stealing everything that's ever known to man that as my husband's and mine. And are you gonna use my stuff

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

to do it with?

[Narrator]

The thieves went as far as rummaging through Marcia's refrigerator. But this wasn't a head scratching whodunit. Mystery. Marcia knew who committed this upsetting crime. She had proof. Without telling anyone, she had installed hidden home surveillance cameras that she bought from Walmart. She could view the security footage on her phone. She showed police the videos of the two men in her bedroom. One of them seemed like the world's dumbest criminal, wasn't wearing a mask. Marsha saw his face and clearly recognized him as Stephen White. Stephen was her daughter Ashley's best friend.

[Marcia Allen]

So he's pulling it out, you see his full face. I'm like, oh, Stephen, you're. And by the way, his mother's gonna try to bail him out and pay him off, whoever off, because that's what she's done his whole entire life. He gets in trouble, she pays him off.

[Narrator]

The second robber was slightly more sophisticated and left his mask on. Marsha recognized his voice. It was Nathan, Steven's husband. The burglary took place while Marsha was out of town with her elderly parents in Gatlinburg, Tennessee. She had installed the security cameras because she was scared about leaving her Cats behind at home for so long. The seven day trip was cut short when Marsha got alerts on her phone and saw on her surveillance that she was being robbed. She hurried home. The vacation was ruined. And it wasn't just Stephen and Nathan who were involved. Martha was convinced her daughter Ashley had orchestrated it. One clue, a safe had been burglarized.

[Marcia Allen]

Three people in the world knew that safe is me, my husband and my daughter, because he gave it to my daughter because she kept a little bit of money in there at one time.

[Interviewer]

I'm writing this down real quick.

[Marcia Allen]

Oh, my husband's dead. I was in Tennessee and her and Steven are best friends.

[Interviewer]

So what did your daughter, you said you talked to your daughter. What is she saying?

[Marcia Allen]

She's denying it. She goes, he's trying to drag me down. I'm like, Ashley, I said, I have proof. If you can get his cell phone, which I don't know if you can or not, it's got all the messages because he was on his phone like this. He. And it's in the video and it's punching the code. So I know she's saying, I've seen that. Yes.

[Interviewer]

I don't have any idea. You know, it'd be my daughter.

[Narrator]

This case today starts with a burglary, but it ends with something much more sinister. This is Gillian in partnership with law and crime. You are listening to Court Junkie. My cousin from North Carolina came to stay with us last month and we put him in our guest bedroom with our new Casper Snowmax mattress. And when I asked him how he slept the next morning, he told me it was one of the comfiest mattresses he had ever slept on. Quite a huge compliment and now my daughter has discovered it too. So even with our cousin gone, I've still got an 8 year old trying to pull squatters rights on the guest bedroom. This podcast is sponsored by Casper. Casper makes reliable, high quality mattresses designed to deliver consistent, comfortable sleep night after night. Casper's mattresses are highly rated by Consumer Reports and out of 99 mattresses, Consumer Reports named Casper's the 1 Mattress their top rated all foam mattress of 2026. If you're in the market for a new mattress or a mattress Upgrade, head to Casper.com and save up to 30% on the mattress you deserve. Casper's mattresses are also built to be durable and long lasting so you're not replacing your mattress every few years. These things are designed to withstand the test of time maintaining support and comfort over the long haul. And Casper has their 100 night risk free trial so you can give it a try. Risk free. Although with 110,000 plus 5 star reviews, I have a feeling you're going to love it. Like my whole household apparently does. Casper offers a wide range of mattress types so whether you like yours firm, soft or somewhere in between, there's something for [e-mail] and they just launched a brand new kids mattress so maybe my daughter's in luck right now. Save up to 30% on mattresses and up to 35% on everything else when you go to Casper.com one last time. That's C A S P E R dot com and save up to 30% on the mattress you deserve. Court Junkie is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money. When you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Lieutenant Adam Nicholson with the Jackson County Sheriff's Office was the lead investigator who was looking into the burglary at Marcia Allen's home. Over the course of his career, he went from a security guard to a jail officer, then a deputy and rose in the ranks in the department. Jackson county was a place where violent crime was rare.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

We're like southern Indiana. I usually try to explain to someone that I'm meeting for the first time where I live is, or where Jackson county is, is almost directly between Louisville, Kentucky and Indianapolis, Indiana. It's really, you know, a quiet area. We do have a lot of like thefts, burglaries. There's you know, drug use like, like everywhere. So a lot of you know, fight with, with drugs and stuff. But you know, typical crimes, you know, could vary anywhere from theft to OWIs which operating while intoxicated, driving while suspended, just you know, usually on smaller scale here.

[Narrator]

The burglary at Marcia's home happened nine months after Marcia's husband, 52 year old Harold Allen Jr. Died after suddenly falling sick. Marsha and Harold had only been married for about two years at the time of his death. To an outsider, their love story sounded like a Lifetime movie. They graduated from the same high school together and then reconnected decades later. At their 30 year high school reunion, a romance sparked and they got married. He worked as an Engineer at Isen usa, an automotive supplier. According to his sister in law, Samantha Allen, Harold woke up and went to work each day for 33 years for the same reason most middle class citizens do, to pay for his home, his truck and just to survive. He lived paycheck to paycheck and would incur debt for vacations or just in order to pay for his hobbies. He did not have a lavish life or significant savings and what he had, he had worked very hard for. It seemed like Marsha and Harold had been happy together.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

They like to go out to eat together. They did a lot of, a lot of that. They went on vacation quite a bit. I think there was a vacation to Missouri and then they went to Gatlinburg, Tennessee at least a couple times. That was one of their favorite places to visit. So it seemed like that their relationship was, was pretty good. Especially like talking to other family members about how, how much Harold cared for her.

[Narrator]

Harold, who went by the nickname Peanut, was by all accounts a stand up guy. His loved ones told 48 Hours that Harold was born premature and got the cute nickname because he had been so small.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Describe by family and friends. Just being a, you know, a very caring, loving person. Anybody that knew him is just, you know, thought he was a great guy, hard worker, went to work every day, had friends at work, had friends outside of work. His, you know, his family was crazy about him. His, his brothers really looked up to him. He was the oldest of two, two other brothers. So he was,

[Detective Clint Burcham]

you know, kind of

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

a role model I guess is what you'd say for them. They really looked up to him a lot.

[Narrator]

Aside from Harold, the other important person in Marsha's life was her grown daughter Ashley.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Marcia and Ashley had a, a very strong relationship. I feel like that, you know, I have a good relationship with my parents and, but this was different, you know, like their relationship was more like, more like friends, I guess, you know, instead of mother daughter talk. It was, it's just really hard to explain their relationship. Like every morning Marsha would check on Ashley and it would be like, good morning baby girl. Good morning baby girl every single day. And you know, Ashley wasn't shy about asking for things like if she needed money for cigarettes or if she needed, you know, money for food or McDonald's, you know, taco Bell, things like that. Like she was constantly asking Marcia to send her money through Venmo and apps like that cash app. So their relationship was strange, but it was, I would describe it as like extremely close. Like they were like best Friend.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Close.

[Narrator]

For about a year, Ashley moved in with her mom and stepfather. She had been living with them. When Harold died. Ashley's fiance and their children moved in, too. So it was a full house.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

It just seemed like after Ashley moved in and, you know, plans started happening. That's kind of when things, you know, fell apart.

[Narrator]

After Harold's death, Ashley moved out of the house she had shared with her mom and stepdad and relocated to Missouri. That's where she was living when the two burglars snuck into Marsha's house in the middle of the night in September 2023. Investigators were able to quickly track down the man Marsha had recognized on the footage as Stephen White.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

So you have any idea why we're here today?

[Stephen White]

Well, they said that y' all got me on camera last night burglarizing the place. Okay. So you and my husband, if that's

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

the case, you know anything about it?

[Stephen White]

No.

[Narrator]

The sheriff's deputies showed up at Stephen's mom's home, where Stephen was staying with his husband and kids. At first, Stephen had an answer for everything. He and his husband were sick, so they couldn't have been out burglarizing Marcia's home.

[Stephen White]

I personally think I have strep or something. Been running a fever. My tongue is all swollen and sore, and my mouth is red and white. So just let y' all know that.

[Narrator]

He denied that it was him in Marsha's footage.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

And we got video. That's just a still shot from a video.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

Hold on.

[Stephen White]

Let me see here. I mean, I really do not have a hat. I don't even have a hat.

[Narrator]

As for Steven's car, which was also caught in Marsha's footage, Stephen claimed his car had been stolen that night. Although he was miraculously standing next to his car as he spoke to Lt. Nicholson, the car had reappeared by then. With such brazen evidence against him, Stephen wasn't going to deny that he had robbed Marcia for very long. But as the sheriff's deputies were arresting him for burglary, Stephen threw out accusations of his own against Marsha. Marsha was a murderer. Stephen said, another cigarette.

[Stephen White]

I'll explain the whole thing, but it's ugly because that lady is the lady who told me to go get the. Her name's Marshall Buxton. And she asked me to get that ship because her husband, Harold Allen, passed away of unknown causes in December.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Okay.

[Stephen White]

And according to her, her husband passed away because she needed that life insurance money. But she did not get that life insurance money because the policy was set to Go to his brother.

[Narrator]

Stephen said Marsha had murdered her husband Harold, who had mysteriously passed away nine months prior.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

You're being awful truthful with us.

[Stephen White]

So I am

[Detective Clint Burcham]

to be, you know,

[Stephen White]

contradicted by, by this woman is a fucking murderer, Okay? I know that. I have not gone to nobody and said anything because I don't have no fucking proof on it. This woman's a psychopath. And I'm telling you guys that right now. I called her daughter, who explains to me, mom has gone crazy and her husband died of unknown causes. But I think it might have been a heart attack. But I know it wasn't that because he was just fine. Everyone was drinking on Christmas Eve, the treat. The presents were set out for the kids. And Marshall went into the kitchen and made a root beer float with whipped cream and sprinkles on top of it. And she poured something out of a bottle into there. And she told Ashley that that was his little extra shot because he like spiked root beer floats. That's what she told her daughter. I think Ashley said it was horrible because like, an hour and a half later he started saying, oh, I'm tired, I'm drunk, I gotta go to bed. I don't feel right. But he only had that one drink, apparently, and like, maybe two beers. He said, I've never felt that junk before in my life.

[Narrator]

Stephen was escorted into the sheriff's deputy's car. He urged investigators to check Marsha's computer records as he said goodbye to his family.

[Stephen White]

This woman's murdered her husband. And if you go into her computer file. I love you, Mom.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Stephen definitely had a lot to say. He, he was full of, of words and just, you know, was talking about anything but what we were wanting to talk about, it seemed like. And it's also common for burgers to try to tell you things, though, that they think are, you know, catching a bigger fish. Like if they, if they want to throw you onto something bigger than what they've done to help themselves out. So I, I had that in my mind too. Like, this could be. But I, I, I knew nothing about Marsha Allen. I knew nothing about Harold Allen. I didn't even know that Harold Allen had died or existed until that day, you know, after he becomes dramatic and, you know, give me a cigarette and I'll tell you everything that happened. And, you know, and then he starts telling us everything that happens, and he starts becoming more truthful and telling us who is with him. And I think he even eventually admits, you know, Ashley's the one that set it up and Ashley gave him the safe code and they were gonna, you know, sell the guns and takes us to other places out in Scott county where other stolen stuff was. So the more time went on and he started becoming truthful and his story never changed.

[Narrator]

And that's how Lieutenant Nicholson's burglary case quickly changed into a murder investig. I'll be honest, my freezer game has always been uninspiring. Grocery store chicken breasts, the occasional ground beef, whatever was on sale that week. It worked, but nothing about it ever felt exciting. And half the time the proteins were just fine. Forgettable. The kind of meal you make because you have to, not because you're looking forward to it. So when Omaha Steaks sometimes sent us a box, I wasn't expecting to be this impressed. We went through their burgers, hot dogs, some chicken and a few things from a variety pack and the difference was honestly noticeable from the first bite. My kids, who are normally pretty picky, went straight for the hot dogs and burgers of course, but they didn't leave a single one behind. Everything is individually vacuum sealed and perfectly portioned so there's no waste and no guessing on amounts. They also have some yummy desserts which is always a hit. What I didn't realize is that Omaha Steaks is a family owned company that's been doing this for over 100 years. So the quality makes a lot more sense once you know that everything's USDA certified tender, naturally aged and frozen at peak flavor so it actually tastes like something instead of just filling a plate. And with their flavor flexible delivery plans, we're not making last minute grocery runs or tossing meat that went bad before we got to it. Taste the Omaha Steaks difference and never settle for grocery proteins again. Get flavorful high quality proteins delivered by visiting Omaha steaks.com/$35 off when you use promo code Quart at checkout. That's Omaha steaks.com code quartz terms apply. See site for details. If you're anything like me, boosting your energy usually means another cup of coffee, which means crashing by 4pm Anyway, so today's sponsor, Metabolism Ignite from Veracity is for anyone looking for something a little more sustainable than that. This podcast is sponsored by Verasity. They describe themselves as an all natural way to reduce cravings, get energized and sharpen focus. With their approach built around metabolism as the root cause of a lot of these day to day struggles, their formulas are drug free, doctor formulated and backed by clinical research. Here's the piece they Say most people are missing blood sugar when it spikes and crashes. The theory goes, everything suffers. Your energy, your mood, your cravings. That 3pm slump you can't shake. The idea behind metabolism ignite is that it helps your body process glucose more efficiently and improves insulin sensitivity. So you're avoiding those spikes in the first place, which Verasity says leads to more stable energy throughout the day without the crashes or cravings. Metabolism Ignite has sold out 10 times, and Verasity says there are no known side effects and no allergens in the formula. As for what's in it, Lemon verbena and hibiscus extracts, green coffee bean extract and magnesium. A blend designed to support metabolism and help with appetite control. Working at what they describe as the mitochondrial level so the energy feels steady rather than jittery, whether you're in back to back meetings or chasing kids around the house. What I like about Verasity is that it feels scientifically legit without coming with some scary warning label that sends me into a spiral. Anyone else immediately regret googling a supplement? And it's just two capsules every morning, so it's about as low lift as a routine gets. So before metabolism ignite sells out again, control your cravings and boost your energy the natural way. Head to VeracityHealth Co and use the code court for up to 65% off your order. Once again, that's V E R A C I T Y Health Co for up to 65% off. And make sure you use my promo code court so they know I sent you. Marsha Allen was at the sheriff's station to talk to detectives a day after Stephen's arrest. A day after Stephen implicated her in the murder of her husband. At first, the investigator's strategy was to play dumb. Detective Clint Burcham asked Marcia about all of her stolen belongings as if he was focused solely on solving the burglary.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

So on September 20th of 23, when Detective Burchin was interviewing Marcia, because I didn't interview her that first time, I. I talked to Detective Burchin before the interview and we had both agreed at that time, like we, you have to ask her about Harold's death. I think you have to mention it because, because of Steven. You know, Stephen had told us,

[Unknown Investigator]

you

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

know, where the stolen stuff was he had taken out of the safe. He told us who was with him, showed us where that person lived, told us the property that that guy would have had. You know, Stephen was also taking us to places out in the county where more stolen stuff was. I mean, everything that Stephen Was. Was telling us started, you know, panning out, started working out like his information was reliable. And I was like, so everything he's told us has come true. I think we have to at least ask her about Harold. What happened to Harold. So I. The interview room where Clint was interviewing Marcia, I was in the very next room over, and that's where I could watch the interview on. On camera and listen to it. So I was kind of waiting on that, on that moment. And he. I think he was talking to her about just kind of getting the information about Stephen and the. Obtaining the videos that she had on her phone, because she had a home security system that caught the burglaries, you know, caught their.

[Stephen White]

Their.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Their actions inside the house. And so when he got. Towards the end, he brings it up, you know, ask her what happened to Harold. And she. She didn't. Didn't even crack on it. I mean, she, like, her reaction didn't really change at first glance. You know, when I first watched it, I didn't really see much of a difference in her later watching it again, in hindsight, like, I'm like, okay, maybe her attitude changed. Like, she went from really, like a bubbly personality to, you know, almost. Almost mad.

[Narrator]

Here are some clips from Marsha's interview at the sheriff's department.

[Interviewer]

I'll tell you what else he said. He accused you of murdering your husband.

[Marcia Allen]

I did not murder my husband.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Something to the effect of some kind of. I don't know, some kind of seeds or something. And basically poisoning. Poisoning his drink.

[Marcia Allen]

That would show me a toxicology report if that happened.

[Interviewer]

And was there an autopsy done? Yes, there was an autopsy.

[Marcia Allen]

Autopsy and toxicology. He died because he had pericarditis that was undetected.

[Interviewer]

He had what?

[Marcia Allen]

Pericarditis. It's the inflammatory.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

The peri.

[Marcia Allen]

Heart has pericardum around it, the line of the heart that protects the heart when it beats. It went undetected, so it went along so long that the pericardium around the heart hardened and it stopped his heart, and he had a little bit of blocked arteries. That's an autopsy report.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

All right.

[Marcia Allen]

It's even on the death certificate.

[Stephen White]

I can.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Marcia Allen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And I'm. I'm just telling you what he said.

[Marcia Allen]

He's lying.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Unknown Investigator]

I believe you.

[Marcia Allen]

I. I cannot believe you said I tried to kill my husband.

[Interviewer]

I. I will tell. We. We worked on this pretty much all day. We did work on this all day yesterday. So I didn't get a chance to sit down and literally listen to every Little thing said in the video jet. I think that's about it.

[Unknown Interviewee (Possibly Family Member)]

Wow.

[Narrator]

Detective Burcham left the room to get paperwork for Marsha to sign, consenting to a phone search. While he was gone, the Marsha was alone in the interview room, but she kept busy deleting thousands of text messages from her phone. She handed her phone over. When the detective returned to the room. The text messages were able to be recovered. However, during a forensic download of Marsha's phone, investigators discovered some extremely interesting text exchanges between Marsha and her daughter Ashley.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

But There was, like, 45, 000 pages of a PDF download for that phone

[Narrator]

slowly, bit by bit, message by message. Lieutenant Nicholson spent months reading Marsha's correspondence with Ashley.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

It was.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

It was overwhelming at times. You know, I'm not going to say that it wasn't.

[Narrator]

He pieced together a timeline with other evidence guiding him along the way, like financial transactions and the search history from Marsha's computer.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Nothing about this case was. Was easy to explain anytime you tried to explain it. And I remember saying a lot of times, you have to read the messages. You have to read the. If you don't read the messages, then you're not going to understand the case.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

You.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

You have to read the text messages, although it's a lot, but you have to read at least. At least the timeline that I put together. We had so many good detectives. Our whole group of detectives are like, the best group of detectives ever, in my opinion. And those guys worked just as hard, if not harder, than I did at finding stuff, helping find stuff. Me and Detective Bertram were on the phone every single day. Like, I was in my office, he was in his office. We would, you know, bounce these text messages off each other. What could this mean? And then, you know, then, like, a page or two later, we come across another message that finally made the first message make sense. Because, like, the message say on page, you know, 500, the message we read look like something important, but we really didn't know what it meant. But then on page, like 503, we would find another text message and be like, oh, okay, that's what that meant. And then you would have to go back and kind of backtrack and make sure you didn't miss anything in between 5, 500 and 503 that, you know, might be relevant. And if you can picture it as, you know, like, you're. You're trying to. To get as much evidence on someone as you can because you know how important this is to Harold's family. And you know, we've, we had conversations with them. Like, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna get to the bottom of this. We're gonna find out what, what happened. And I feel like we're close. And so then whenever you would find something really significant, it would, you know, like I said, I don't like to use the word exciting in a murder case, but it was almost, you know, excitement there. Like, okay, I found, found another really good piece here.

[Narrator]

Investigators came to believe that Harold had been poisoned, as Stephen had said, and not just once, but multiple times. They discovered that pong pong seeds had been purchased on ebay from Ashley's email account on September 14, 2022, and mailed to the address where Ashley, Marsha and Harold were all living. And there were text messages confirming receipt of them. On October 11, Ashley texted her mom, marsha seeds come today. In the mail. Marsha wrote, yay. Ashley texted, so we gotta get the mail today. Marsha responded, we will definitely. The pong pong tree is found in India, Southeast Asia and East Africa. And the toxins in its seeds have killed hundreds of people over the years. According to the U.S. national Library of Medicine, the tree has been given a dark nickname, the suicide tree. In the probable cause affidavit, Lt. Nicholson wrote, those who ingest the seeds will suffer from a variety of symptoms like nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain and diarrhea, followed by heart related symptoms, including heart blockage, which could potentially result in death. The pong pong seed has been reported to be used in cases of suicide and homicide in their countries of origin. The National Institute of Health added that most cases are suicidal, but there are concerns about its potential use as a homicidal agent and as the bitter taste of seeds can be masked with spices and may be added to food. On November 15, Ashley was texting her mom about making brownies. Ashley texted about his special treat. Her recipe included espresso powder, dark and milk chocolate and caramel, sea salt and black walnuts. Marcia texted. Ashley wrote, I got you black walnuts. Smiley face on the list, lol. Marcia texted, we can say the nutty flavor is from the nuts and I can make us some banana nut bread later with the black walnuts. Ashley responded, oh, we got this. I'm chef researching how to fix a bitter dish. On November 25, while Marsha and Harold were out to eat, Ashley baked. I'm going to use the coffee grinder before you get back, so just let me know. Ashley texted, tonight couldn't have gone any better. Marcia wrote later on November 26th she texted her daughter a photo of Harold in bed with a paper plate of half eaten brownies on his stomach. He ate almost all. Marsha wrote. Later she texted lol. He's on the toilet pooping and moaning some. According to their phone records, the mother daughter duo later began researching a different poison. On November 27th someone using Marsha's Google account searched what happens if you eat foxglove seeds? How much foxglove is fatal and how long does foxglove take to kill you? Foxglove is a beautiful but poisonous plant. Very deadly. Marcia texted Ashley that same day. I just want it done. Lol. Ashley responded, me too. Like beyond over it. Lol. But we got it. Marcia wrote, like what's taking so long? Then he's off balance. Said he had trouble getting out of the car. Ashley wrote, the weight. It takes 12 hours for a woman at 180 to feel anything. You do the math. LOL. It's slow. Marcia responded, so it's going to take a while. 48 max. Ashley wrote, we will know. Marcia responded, LOL he's making me mad. Ashley asked, what's he doing besides just his usual lol. Marsha then texted her a story about how Harold had laid beside her the night before and told her, I just want you to know my love for you hasn't changed and never will. Ashley texted her mom, ahahaha, that's insane. But oh well. Lol. So ominous. Marcia wrote, I need foxglove seeds. I think I can get them at Walmart. Ashley responded, thank you. We are watching a new movie on Netflix with the kids and those are traceable if they look for it. Lol. Marsha wrote. Ashley asked how everyone was feeling. Marsha said, he's negative as usual. Stops when he sees my face. My anxiety is off the charts. Massive dizzy spell just hit him. He's trying to shake it off. Later that day on November 27th, Harold went to the hospital. The left side of his face was numb. The next day, November 28, Marcia texted Ashley. He called out. I said did you call work? He said there's no way I can work. I said, that's not what I asked you. I said, did you notify your work? Yes I did. I said, you need to start listening to what I ask. He said, I can't hear. Sorry. Marcia went on texting, I'm so tired. He's been in and out of this bed so much it's not even funny. I am irritated and can't sleep peacefully. I need this to be over. It's hanging on by threads and he's mean and narcissistic. Ashley wrote, he's an ass. Yet you've been so nice and it is hanging on by a thread. It's so long because he's big. Marsha responded, I wish it would reach its climax and be done. Lol. If he moved around it would go faster. He is not presenting like the stories on November 29, Harold missed work because he was sick. This needs to end for real. Marcia texted Ashley. Almost 48 hours. I agree. Ashley texted back, as long as the symptoms are still present, it's happening just at a pace. It needs to, but I'm annoyed with it too. Marsha then wrote Ashley, Harold's exact words, I'm feeling a lot better since drinking Gatorade. Ashley texted back, well we need to reorder. Probably can't be cooked but did do some damage. Two days later on November 30, Harold was back at the hospital with gastrointestinal problems. He texted Marsha, I just want to lay down. My stomach hurts. Marcia wrote back, I bet you're dehydrated. On December 1, Marsha texted Ashley, I'm pissed, sick and tired. He just needs to let go. She also wrote, we need to start looking for land. Ashley texted Marcia, 32 bucks. Marcia wrote, not bad. It will be here on Monday. If we order today, do I send you 32? Ashley responded, that's what it says. And yes please. According to the records, Ashley had ordered water hemlock on Etsy. This is what Lt. Nicholson wrote about that in the probable cause affidavit. According to the usda, water hemlock is the most violently toxic plant that grows in North America and only a small amount of the toxic substance in the plant is needed to produce poisoning in livestock or humans. A document from Oregon State University states, it only takes a piece of a root the size of a walnut to kill a 1200 pound cow or horse. Water hemlock poisoning has multiple symptoms. Some of them include nausea, abdominal pain, epigastric distress, flushing, dizziness and death. On December 2, Ashley texted Marsha. You can't touch the plant. Marsha wrote. You will need gloves. Ashley responded, oh, I know I'll need to wear gloves and have some time alone to prepare the route. Later, Marcia wrote, he was thinking about not going to his uncle's funeral tonight. I said, you will regret that. He needs to go and just drop in the hole too. Ashley wrote. Then later he went into apnea. This morning I thought yay. Then heard a gasp and snore on the couch, Marsha wrote, it's coming. I agree. Ashley responded. At one point, Ashley texted, he's a waste of space. Some of Ashley and Marsha's messages were about witchcraft, which shocked the investigators.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

It was really strange because, you know, none of us officers, detectives were, were familiar with any of that kind of stuff really. I mean, we'd heard about it or maybe seen things like in movies and things like that, but like to have it in front of us. We. None of us were familiar with that at all. But it started kind of coming together towards the middle of the investigation when we were really digging through those text messages, like this is what they really believe. And when we had the chance to question Ashley and Marsha separately, different times, Marsha kind of denied having anything to do with it and saying, well, that was more Ashley. Ashley's the one that really believes more of that stuff. And then whenever we would talk to Ashley about it, she would push it more off on to Marsha and say she didn't really believe that much about it. But it was, it was Marcia who believed that stuff. So neither one of them, when questioned about it, really wanted to say one way or the other, who, who was the. Who was the one. But through the text messages, and I'm sure you've seen those, that, I mean it was, it's evident that both were highly believe that stuff.

[Narrator]

Ashley and Marcia texted about candles and crystals and herbs. They seemed to be convinced that Harold was possessed by some kind of demon. It that's how they referred to Harold. At one point, Marsha texted, I blew my candle out before I went to sleep. And he snapped, what is that smell? I said, my candle. So I know it knows his time is coming to an end. Ashley wrote. He snapped over it. Yeah, it knows it's not going to have a host soon. And who knows, he will probably take till checkout. LOL. On December 8, Ashley texted, Do we have anything that can squish these while in the jar? Lol. Just a little squeeze to really get the good stuff out more. Lol. The messages indicated that at this point, Marsha and Ashley had poisoned Harold's Sprite and a margarita. On December 12, Ashley texted Marsha. He drank that awful fast. LOL. Marsha wrote, not much of it yet. As she responded. Well, that's all right. A little will be enough. Towards the end of 2022, Marsha and Ashley had devised a new plan to kill Harold. They would poison him with ethylene glycol, a colorless, odorless liquid used to make Antifreeze. Another detective found a Dec. 13 order for ethylene glycol that was shipped to an address for Lynn Allen. Lynn was Marsha's middle name. The package was sent to Marsha's home address. It cost $31.99 and was paid for with Ashley's credit card. Ashley sent the tracking number to Marsha on December 14.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

There's one message that I'll never. That I'll never forget. And it's the day of. Or, well, it's the day that Harold drank the ethylene glycol. So I, I don't know if he actually died on the 19th, December 19th, or if he died on. I think the death certificate said December 20th because that's when Marsha had called 91 1. But September 19th of 2022 is when the ethylene glycol arrives at Marsha's house. And, you know, days leading up to this, there was lots of text messages like, I think it'll be there today. Or has it arrived yet? Has the mail came? And then, then that leads in again, like I said, to the 19th. And they're doing the same thing. They're asking, it's supposed to be here today. What time does the mail come? And when the mail. When the mail is what they're calling the lean glycol. So when the mail finally got there, Ashley sends Marsha a message that says the male is here. And it's. And there's a smiley face, like a. I guess, like the two dots and then like a. Just like a smiley face. It wasn't like an emoji. It was like how you'd type it out, like with a colon and then a parenthesis. And you know, that message there is like, once we found out that she's referring to the ethylene glycol, because we're able to track that, like when the ethylene glycol was delivered, and it's within like a minute or two of that. Of that text message.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

So

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

that, that, that message will be one I Never forget.

[Narrator]

On December 19, 2022, Marcia and Ashley were planning dinner with a fatal dessert. Ashley texted steak, pasta, salad, and green beans. You can lie if you won't eat my cooking and say you cooked, but I'm already marinating the steaks. It's the little fillets, so not a huge dinner. Plenty of room for floats. Marcia wrote, he's all in for a root beer float. Okey dokey. I'll tell the kids that's what we're doing tonight. For dessert, smiley face root beer floats. Marcia texted Ashley a picture of a W. Root beer cans. Ashley and Marcia continued to go back and forth over what size root beer cans to buy. Ashley suggested bigger ones. The next day at 7:55am on Dec. 20, Marsha texted Ashley, Come here please. Ashley texted. One moment. At 1:59pm a 911 call came in from Marsha and Harold's house.

[Unknown Investigator]

91 1. Yeah, this is 3287 North State, row 135. My husband's in our bedroom floor. He's non responsive and I need him. Is he breathing? No, he's not. Okay. Did you find him like that? Yeah, I worked from home and I went back there to check on him because he's been sick. And then when I went back there, he was just leaning the floor like he was trying to get up and go to the bathroom or something. He's not breathing. Okay. Do you want to start CPR if I help for you? Yeah, I could, I could do that. Okay. Any signs alive? No, he's just laying here with his mouth open. Go ahead. He's white. Is he cold to the touch? What? Is he cold or is he warm? He's a little. Little bit of both. Okay. You have somebody there with you? My daughter, Both of my granddaughters are here. Okay, I got a police officer. It's almost there. Okay.

[Narrator]

After her husband died, Marcia wrote a book, a fact that's eerily similar to our last case I just covered, about Corey Richards. Marsha's book was called From Surviving to Thriving, a short self help book exclusively for people who have lost a spouse. In her synopsis, Marcia wrote this book provides a distinctive viewpoint and helpful answers related to your journey. It contains true life, examples of resiliency, practical suggestions and the lessons I have learned as a widow. The book is 38 pages and is currently on sale for $12.99 on Amazon.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

I, you know, I don't know if she wrote that book to kind of throw us off, you know, like because it's about. The book is supposedly about like how to deal with the loss of a loved one or like what do you do after, you know, your loved one pass. Passes away. And we would maybe look at her like she's just a grieving widow. There's no way she would do this. She wrote a book about it. But you know, the going through the, the book, someone had said that the date of Harold's death is wrong. Like she got the date wrong in the book, which you know, I Don't know if that's because maybe she didn't really write it and it was more AI writing and you know, didn't correct that right date or something. I'm not sure what happened. But yes, she did publish a book.

[Narrator]

But as the phone records showed, Marsha of course was not your typical grieving widow. On December 24, 2022, four days after Harold's death, Ashley texted Marsha, I'm sorry, I'm trying to switch my vibe and can't. I love you. Marsha wrote, I understand. I am faking it myself. Ashley responded, I don't have it to fake. I have it left to fake for things that need it to keep a story. So why would Marsha want her husband dead? According to Lt. Nicholson's theory, it was about money.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

When I got a hold of Isin like their human resource department where Harold worked and I got the information from their, from the human resource department about where the money went and Marsha received the money from his, from his work from Iceland. So she, she received like a one year pay like so I think he was making around $60,000 a year. So she received like 60,000 and then he had like a $50,000 life policy through Ryson. So she got like 110, close to 100 and 10 hundred 15,000 through through Ryson.

[Narrator]

On December 26, six days after Harold's death, Marcia and Ashley texted about life insurance. Harold's 401k Marcia wrote he only has AD&D with Sentra. It will not pay out for natural causes. Ashley wrote I can though get a hold of the insurance not the bank as you and ask some questions if you want. Only thing they can do is say yeah you don't get it or where do I send the 200k lol. I'll need the paper from the safe. His social may be yours, his date of birth etc all the demographics and I'll repeat questions I need the answer to out loud. We got this. Okie dokie and yes we do. Marsha responded. Ashley then texted peace is next. Lol. We are in the storm. After the event then calm comes. But peace or calm did not come. Marsha texted ashley angrily on December 29 after Marsha found messages that Harold had sent to another woman. Marsha said she found PayPal payments Harold had sent to this woman. Marcia texted PayPal notes so I went to his Facebook messenger where he talked to her best friend about he met a nice girl who truly loves him but if only April would give him a chance he would Marry her and give her the world. He said he has loved her for over 20 years and he has his whole heart. Ashley texted. He was such a dog and deserved what he got. I'm livid. My heart just dropped. So I know yours broke and you must feel so angry and broken cause you did try and did love him at one point. Omg mom. Wtf? When Harold's loved ones asked Marsha about getting some family heirlooms back in January 2023, Marcia gave a scathing response. How could anyone care about material things? Weeks after Harold's death, Marsha texted. I am overwhelmed and disappointed and hurt, not to mention depressed and at a loss for words right now. I am struggling to survive mentally and physically. Guns are not on the top of my priority list right now. I don't expect any of you to understand this. A rift was also growing between Marsha and Ashley. The mother and daughter who shared so many secrets together were not on good terms. In a fallout over money. She owes me so much, much more than what I'm about to do. Ashley texted Stephen as the two best friends began planning the break in at Marcia's house. And Ashley's text to Stephen also caught Lt. Nicholson's attention. It was pretty much a confession. She wouldn't even have succeeded with this last thing without me. Ashley texted Stephen on July 27, 2023. I planned it all. She was going to use insulin like 1983. Oh, it's not traced. Yeah, not usually and not years ago but 2022. Yeah it is. And he was a diabetic like come on. So something else was hatched and we both know that wasn't the one planning etc. She just it all up made it less lucrative. Wouldn't even make it go get a will. She couldn't go into a dead man's phone without me to get all of his retirements and savings he had hidden. Hell, she got $4,500 from his PayPal CC because I showed her how to scam it as him before they find he's gone. She's fake AF. There was no foul play suspected in Harold's death. At least not at first. The outside world assumed his death was from natural causes. He was overweight and diabetic, so it was easy to presume his health had been failing him. His death might have gone under the radar if not for that burglary. Ashley, unsatisfied that her mother wasn't selling Harold's possessions fast enough and sharing the money with her, began orchestrating the robbery with Stephen.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

You know, Ashley just became unpatient. She got tired of working, waiting for mom to sell the house, and she wasn't doing any. Marshall basically wasn't doing what they had planned, like she was going to sell the house. The plan was for Ashley and Marsha to move to Colorado by themselves and live off the grid. And after Harold's death, Marcia just didn't show any interest of selling the house and, and, you know, doing what, you know, holding up her end of the deal, I guess. So that's whenever the burglary was. Was planned.

[Narrator]

When Marsha was robbed, she contacted police to report it. But why would she contact them about the burglary if she had something to hide about her husband's death?

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

There's been a couple things that I've tossed around. You know, I think that she may have, like, rushed to. To call. But then, you know, throughout the investigation, we learn from Stephen that, you know, Marsha despised him like Marcia hated Stephen with a passion. And I think when she saw him, she might have just rushed so fast before she started thinking about it, because she had no. She. She definitely had no idea that Ashley had told Stephen about the murder. She would have never dreamed that Ashley would have spilled. Spilled that to Stephen.

[Narrator]

And then, of course, it was after Marcia reported the burglary that investigators went straight to Steven, who then told them that Harold had been murdered.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

If it wouldn't have been for him, if he wouldn't have brought this up to us, then, you know, we wouldn't have known and we. We would still be just not knowing anything happened. So if it wouldn't have been for him, wouldn't have been for Steven, like, we would know nothing.

[Narrator]

If you're wondering what happened to Steven, the unlikely hero in this story, he was charged and went to jail for the burglary. Lt. Nicholson said he didn't serve the full sentence. The other thing that led to the truth about Harold's death was, of course, when Marsha willingly handed over her cell phone full of those incriminating text messages. Without that phone, Lieutenant Nicholson might never have discovered the plot between Marsha and Ashley to kill Harold.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

He had been dead for nine months, and there had been an autopsy, and everything had been cleared by a doctor. And if the burglary wouldn't have happened, I don't see any way that we would have known that the murder even happened at all. I think that Ashley's greediness of setting up this burglary and then leading Stephen to Marsh's house to steal the items and then. Which ultimately led Me to Stephen and to get his confession of the burglary. And then, you know, in the meantime, hear him, you know, tell us that Marsha had killed her husband, that there would be no other way that we would have known about it.

[Narrator]

Many murder investigations can get stalled. Sometimes evidence is hard to find and time goes by. But here, luck had been on Lt. Nicholson's side throughout the entire case. And that good fortune wasn't about to run out either. Even though Harold had been dead for nine months, There was also physical evidence that linked Marsha and Ashley to Harold's death.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

So when Harold died In December of 2022, he was taken to Sneck Medical center in Seymour. And that's where they did the autopsy. And during the autopsy they did an internal autopsy. So that meant that they would have, they would have cut him open and they removed his heart during the, during the autopsy. And so we learned that the heart was still available, the heart was still at snack. And that was, I guess, their policy. If they remove an organ from the body, they, they keep it for one year. So we were close, like because it was December 20th was the death and 22, and then the burglary was in September, September 19th of 2023. So we were within like three months of, of losing that heart forever.

[Narrator]

The sheriff's department made an appointment to test the heart at a special lab. According to the lab, sure enough, Harold had a lethal amount of ethylene glycol in his system.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

We were, we were lucky.

[Stephen White]

And

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

you know, which I'll take luck any day that, that it wants to. In these types of investigations, any luck that you can get is, is, is wonderful. And we also had the blood, Harold's blood, because during the autopsy they would have, they drew blood and the blood wasn't a schneck, but it had been sent to a lab up in Indianapolis for, for toxicology. And their policy was kind of similar to SNCC's. I don't know their exact policy, but their policy was similar where like after they, you know, test blood that's sent to them, they keep it for so long. So they still had that. And we were able to go get that blood and also take it to NMS labs with the heart and have it tested as well.

[Narrator]

The blood also tested positive for ethylene glycol. I can't believe it's October 16th already. One investigator said when Marsha Allen was back in the interview room. A never ending nightmare. Marsha agreed quietly. She was in for a second interview. This time even under more suspicion. That she had murdered her husband. Investigators were about to confront her with all the text messages and evidence. Ashley was in the process of being extradited back to Indiana and was going to be interviewed later. Marcia had the opportunity to tell her side of the story first.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Was there any. Any reason you think anyone else, I mean, or maybe even Ashley would want. Would have wanted to hurt Harold?

[Marcia Allen]

No, not. I mean, maybe I thought things were fine. Obviously they weren't. I didn't have no idea if I even had anything. I wouldn't even worry him in the house.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Maybe she knew that there was a life policy, and policy wasn't that big.

[Marcia Allen]

It wouldn't make sense. Yeah, it doesn't make sense.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

I mean, was he mean to you? Was he to her?

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

No, he was.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

He wasn't like. He wasn't mean to the kids or anything like that. Where she would have had some kind of way or some. Some reason for any kind of retaliation.

[Marcia Allen]

I don't understand.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Something was done to him, and I just. That's what we want to get to the. That's what we want cleared up, and that's what we want to find out. It was either. Either her. You know, Ashley had had some reasoning behind wanting to. To hurt him or do something.

[Marcia Allen]

I don't understand it.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

It's. We're. We're really trying to wrap our minds around it too, because, you know, unless these messages mean something totally different that he's will show you here in just a little bit, he's printing off. I mean, it's hard to understand. You know, it's hard to understand why this would happen. But I just want you to know that we are talking to you first. And if you do know something that she did, to make sure that you tell me today. Because when we talk to her, I don't think she's gonna hold back.

[Narrator]

Marcia said she has a feeling that things are twisted and that it looks like something it's not. She said ever since she was a child, Ashley would say something like it was a joke, but it really wasn't. It was the truth. Marsha said she was just trying to figure out what the crap is going on. She insisted she didn't do anything to her husband. She was asked if Harold died on the 19th or the 20th, and she said the 20th that she tried to get him to go to the hospital, but he wouldn't go. I should have made him, she said. She said he wasn't talking right. He was slurring his words and had been doing that for a couple days. She said he wasn't right since November when he had an episode at his mom's house. She said they were eating and he almost passed out. He was diabetic. So they went to the er. She said she asked them to do a chest X ray, that they told her that he probably just ate too much sugar too quickly. Investigators went back to talking about Ashley.

[Interviewer]

Did she ever talk about, like, trying to, like, exercise any demons or anything?

[Unknown Interviewee (Possibly Family Member)]

Not that I'm aware of.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Nothing with the candles or anything like that? Like, the candles wouldn't do anything to.

[Unknown Interviewee (Possibly Family Member)]

No. She always thought that certain candles would cleanse the room and stuff. It's just weird stuff that she does.

[Narrator]

The interview went on for nearly four and a half hours. The investigators moved slowly with no hard accusations.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

We just had to be very careful with Marsha that day.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Like, we had to.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Like, we couldn't, you know, be the smartest person in the room, so to speak, because that would have probably ran her away. It was a long, long interview, longer than we wanted it to be.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

And it was tough.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

It was really, really hard because we had to, you know, basically play dumb, you know, like, not let her know that we were certain that what happened to Harold and. Because at any moment, she could have just asked for a lawyer and stepped out of the room and went home.

[Narrator]

The pair of investigators showed Marsha the pages of text messages where Marcia and Ashley had discussed the ethylene glycol shipment when the package would arrive, and mocked Harold's declining health.

[Interviewer]

The green is Marcia. The blue is there.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

So you asked her if this is the company, and you took it. There was a screenshot of this place in Texas, and then she says, I don't know, but this is the code. And then that code is the. Is the match to the. What shipped on, which is the ethylene glycol. That's. That's why we had our concerns over

[Marcia Allen]

the, oh, so much Christmas stuff coming and so many things coming. But, no, I did not know about that.

[Narrator]

They asked her about the UPS tracking number Ashley sent her.

[Unknown Interviewee (Possibly Family Member)]

Yeah, but I never looked it up. She sends me crap like that all the time.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, but you see how we got, like.

[Unknown Interviewee (Possibly Family Member)]

Yeah, I see how you see how

[Interviewer]

it looks like you're connected to this ethylene glycol.

[Unknown Interviewee (Possibly Family Member)]

Yeah, but I'm not.

[Interviewer]

Okay, but I mean, you see that

[Unknown Interviewee (Possibly Family Member)]

it looks that way. Yes.

[Interviewer]

I want you to understand why I

[Unknown Interviewee (Possibly Family Member)]

get it, because I didn't know what was going on. I just trust people too much, Especially her.

[Interviewer]

I think you ordered something for her, she says you can't touch the plant when they come. Just saying gloves. You say laugh out loud. That's what I was going to tell you. Also, you will need gloves.

[Unknown Interviewee (Possibly Family Member)]

Yeah, those are the plants that were in the basement.

[Interviewer]

She said, aha. I know you said aha. She said, oh, I know I'll need to wear gloves and have some time alone to prepare the route. What are you talking about there?

[Stephen White]

What are you guys talking about?

[Unknown Interviewee (Possibly Family Member)]

Her marijuana plants that were downstairs in the basement.

[Interviewer]

She had to wear gloves for them.

[Unknown Interviewee (Possibly Family Member)]

Yeah, because she said that if you touch them too much, it could make the leaves on it and the roots die.

[Stephen White]

Okay,

[Unknown Interviewee (Possibly Family Member)]

I don't know anything about that. So.

[Interviewer]

All right, you see where that was concerning to us though?

[Unknown Interviewee (Possibly Family Member)]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

So when I read it to you now though, do you see where that could be like you guys wanted him to die?

[Unknown Interviewee (Possibly Family Member)]

I did not want him to die.

[Narrator]

She agreed that she can see how it would look if they were to find ethylene glycol in Harold's system.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

They didn't test for that. So. So that's something that would have gotten by that they didn't test for. But you know, luckily for us, they keep that blood for a year. So we, we, you know, have put a hold on that blood and it's going to be retested for all kinds of other stuff. So we're going to find out what's in the blood. Do I think that you like would just kill anybody or just go kill somebody randomly? I don't think that, no. I think that maybe he was so sick and that you guys just wanted it to be over. I mean, possibly. I don't know. I mean, I'm trying to think of any other reason of just like there being like a cold blooded murderer running around just killing people, you know, I mean, I don't think that's the case.

[Marcia Allen]

I won't be very upset if it shows that because I have no idea. I mean, I didn't.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

I did not kill him.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Who did?

[Marcia Allen]

As far as I know, he has heart condition. Dead.

[Interviewer]

Okay, what's.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

We.

[Interviewer]

We get the results back.

[Marcia Allen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And it says there's ethylene glycol in his system. How did that get there? If you didn't do it, you didn't know anything about it. How did that happen?

[Marcia Allen]

We both made the root bear floats. So I did not put anything in anyone's drink. I didn't even know we had anything like that.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

There.

[Interviewer]

Is there ever a chance when Ashley could have put something in there?

[Marcia Allen]

I have no Idea. She.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

She literally.

[Interviewer]

Did you watch her? So did you not watch her?

[Narrator]

No, I did not watch her.

[Interviewer]

No. That's what I'm asking.

[Marcia Allen]

I did not watch her the whole time. No, I did not not say.

[Interviewer]

We get those results back. And that. And that's what it says. It says that in his system, somewhere in his system that there's ethylene glycol. What would be your best guess of how it got there? With everything we've told you,

[Marcia Allen]

probably her.

[Interviewer]

And why would she want to do that?

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

I don't know.

[Marcia Allen]

I don't know.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

And there's Google searches. How much vox goes does it take to kill someone? How much Fox Club can I give someone before they die? I mean, that's pretty serious. And the dates match where he's sick and going to the hospital with anal bleeding. And that's what one of the symptoms of phosphor. There's so much there. And we're not the judge and the prosecutor, but you know, this. This evidence here could easily be sent to them today. And say, here's what we have probable cause to believe is that Harold Allen was poisoned by Marsha and Ashley. Marsha sent her $32. Ashley orders to set with that money. She orders this ethylene glycol. It's supposed to be there overnight, but it's not because of the holidays. So they. Every day they're checking. Is there a package? Is there a package? Is there a package yet? It doesn't come because they're behind for Christmas. When it finally gets there, Ashley sends Marcia a message saying, we got a delivery. Smiley face. You know what that looks like? That looks like evil to smile about. Hey, we got the stuff to finally kill.

[Interviewer]

I think he liked or loved them.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

And then you love that image. Image that there's a delivery and then it's time for root beer floats the same day. And then the very next day he's. He's gone. And then we have a witness who has heard from Ashley saying the way that he died, how he died, that what. You know, that.

[Interviewer]

I mean, that's essentially. I mean, Ashley somewhat confessed to Stephen.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

So we have. We have all that. We have the.

[Interviewer]

I think she's. But I'm not 100% sure, but it almost sounds like she's maybe shifting to blame a little bit more towards you than herself.

[Narrator]

And that was true. The day after their interview with Marsha, the investigators interviewed Ashley.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

What we'd really like to know, Ashley, is if you know that your mom did something that she probably really shouldn't have done. I mean, your mom told us quite a bit yesterday. So you know that actually, I mean, do you think your mom's capable of doing something like that?

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

I don't know. I don't know that she did. But, I mean, she's capable or whatever. Very intelligent.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

I got a question. It may sound a little bit odd, but was. Does your mom. Does she believe in, like, this, like, the demons and kind of stuff like that? Like, any of the. I guess that's what you'd call, like. Like maybe witchcraft stuff and wicked maybe.

[Interviewer]

I'm not for sure if that's exactly what it is, but I don't.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

I'm not sure. She. She goes in random spills and talking about stuff like that, but I just give her a shoulder and then I don't know what to do with it.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

We went into that a little bit yesterday with her, and, you know, she was talking about, like, some candles and stuff like that that she would burn to maybe like, kind of cleanse the air and stuff like that. But, like, where I was going with that is, like, was it ever mentioned or. Do you remember anything ever mentioned about Harold possibly having some kind of demon or. I think it was referred to as. It. Do you remember, like, maybe.

[Interviewer]

Maybe an attachment? An attachment?

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

She would say something about an ant when it was. When his moods would flip.

[Narrator]

She said Marsha was convinced Harold had been possessed.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

She thought she had something, he had something in him. She did. I thought she was just, like I said earlier, dissociating what she didn't like from the man and making it like a character. But the way she would word it, she really believed something was inside him, that it was going to attack everybody in the house. And it was making her mean, and she really believed it. Okay, well, you could get sage, as they say, that you can do that. I just. I didn't want to make her feel crazy, but I didn't want to make her make it worse.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Okay.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

Because she would wake up and say, I see it looking at me.

[Narrator]

And she said Marsha would get crystals and bracelets and those types of things to protect herself from it.

[Interviewer]

She would speak of the Guides, like,

[Detective Clint Burcham]

speaking to the Guides.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

Yeah, she does that a lot. She's done that for years.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

So does she refer to the guys a lot as God?

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

And I think that's what they are to her.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Okay. Okay. And what is your thought on.

[Stephen White]

On that?

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Like, what's your thought on what? Did you. Did you think something also maybe could have been in him?

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

I didn't disbelieve it. But I kept my skepticism behind closed doors and told my mother whatever she'd like to hear because I knew what happened. If you don't.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

What happened?

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

Oh, she tantrums out.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Yeah. Okay.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

Tries to make somebody's life hell.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Mm.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

So you kind of have to just appease her or get the wrath.

[Narrator]

Ashley said she had no quarrels with her stepfather, who had welcomed her into his home when she moved back. Harold liked being a grandpa to Ashley's kids. But according to her mother, Harold was a bad husband and Marsha was fiercely unhappy. Harold overspent and chased women. Ashley also told a story about Marsha's childhood. Marsha's father had once tortured a dog by giving the dog antifreeze. Marsha was young when it happened, but knew enough about the incident to retell the story to Ashley. Perhaps that had been a dark inspiration for Marsha to poison her husband decades later. Throughout the interview, Ashley laid the blame on her mother for the plot to kill Harold.

[Interviewer]

If you know something. If you know something, now's the time to tell us so we can.

[Marcia Allen]

I know.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

She said she wanted out. That's all.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Like, she just.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

She has said, well, you can divorce him. She said that she was going to divorce him, and then she started acting all weird, like you said, about the demons and stuff.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

So was there ever a time that she asked you to get her fox glove?

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

She asked me what it was, and I said, that's not good. You. You know, I don't even think that you can have that.

[Interviewer]

What is foxglove?

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

It's just. It's a plant that I think.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Why do you think she would ask you like she would. You think she was trying to bring you into that, too? That or try to.

[Marcia Allen]

I don't know.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

She was always asking me weird stuff. She did ask me for access to. To my bank and stuff and all that. And I'd hand her my phone all the time.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Like the order stuff. Do that?

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

Yeah, because we would always do that. We would. Well, I would share mine. She'd never share hers.

[Interviewer]

You said. I know. I think I know what you mean. But when you say your mom mentioned taking that way out. Can you be more specific?

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

Get rid of him.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

And.

[Interviewer]

What way? Because you mentioned divorce earlier.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

No, she didn't want a divorce. And I said divorce. She wanted to be free of him completely. She wanted him dead. And I said, you're going to go to hell for that month.

[Interviewer]

So she asked you about this, or she tells you that she. She wants him Dead.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

And I said, for what?

[Interviewer]

And that was going to be my next question.

[Marcia Allen]

Why?

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

She said, he cheats. He puts hands on me. He spends all of our money. I have to be the man. I was like, you can leave. So, and then she started asking crazier and crazier questions, and now it is making sense.

[Narrator]

She said at one point, Marcia asked her if antifreeze hurts.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

So there's messages that. That lead us, as investigators, to believe that she needed your help, and that's why we've asked you about that. So we know with. With the text messages, that what's happened to him. She's asking for his help or ask you for the help. So we need to know, like, what you did to help and if that is, like, what the final stage was and who did the final thing. Because we can all sit here and act like we don't really know what happened, but we all three in this room know that what happened.

[Interviewer]

Somebody put some ethylene glycol on the beer float.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Put the ethylene glycol on the root beer float.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

My mother did, honestly.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Okay, so your mom put it in there because she wants him gone.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

Yes.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

And she wants it to be just you and her.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

Yeah. Which was never gonna be. She's always tried to sabotage every relationship, everything I've been in, and try to micromanage how I raised my daughter.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Okay, so she puts the ethylene glycol in there. She had you help her how?

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

She would just have me get her information on things.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Okay.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

That's it.

[Interviewer]

So how did that conversation go when she asked you to do that for her?

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

I really didn't. Don't ask many questions, which I. I guess I should for that woman. I just do what she asks and always have since I was a child.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so she asked you to order this ethylene glycol, some kind of chemical for you. Tell her that it's $32. So she. She sends you the money.

[Narrator]

She said Marcia wanted to use root beer floats because Harold loved them so much. When Marcia made the dessert drinks on December 19, 2022, Ashley claimed she was busy putting her kids to bed. She said Marcia wanted to pour 6 or 7 ounces of the ethylene glycol into Harold's root beer float. Marsha then reported back that Harold drank it all. He acted like he was drunk, delirious and loopy. Throwing up. She said she told the investigators she went to bed early that night. They asked her what Harold had to go through.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

I mean, there's no Way around the way that he went, that it wasn't absolutely horrible.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

I guarantee it was awful.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

And if that is, you know, the case, you know, there's probably some stuff that you would want to get off your chest. But

[Interviewer]

did your mom ever tell you about anything about how he went

[Narrator]

right.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

Right after and everything? She was in a one of her little depression spirals over everything. She was talking about how karma's gonna get her and she's gonna have to feel some sort of pain, the same, but that's all she said.

[Narrator]

About two hours into the interview, Ashley took a sip from her water bottle and said, loyalty to a mother is a hell of a thing.

[Ashley Allen (Daughter)]

I don't think she feels any remorse, honestly.

[Narrator]

Lieutenant Nicholson was convinced Ashley had a bigger role in Harold's death than she was letting on.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

This is just my opinion. I. I think that Ashley's probably the one that put the ethylene glycol in the root beer float. I think Ashley's probably the one that did it. And I think that most of the investigators, I don't want to speak for them, but I think most of them agree. I think Marcia knew exactly what was going on. Ashley's the one that ordered the ethylene glycol. Asley's the one that came up with the idea for the ethylene glycol. I think Ashley had done this before. I think that she's done this before in a previous. Her previous marriage.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

Her.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

She had a husband that died.

[Narrator]

Not only did Ashley have a husband who had died, but he had died under mysterious circumstances. Also, Lt. Nicholson said Ashley's late husband was a man named Ty Jones. In her interview with the sheriff's office, Marsha said Ashley and Ty had gotten married when Ashley was just 18. 48 Hours reported that Ty had died at the age of 33, just three years before Harold's death. Marcia described his heart condition as a widowmaker and said he had been cremated. Ty's death occurred in a different county.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

We, you know, wouldn't. Didn't really have a choice but to look at some of the stuff with. With Ashley's, you know, husband, because it was in the mix of the stuff that we were looking at. So anytime that we would find something or originally when we started finding stuff, we called the state police because they have a. There's a state police post over that covers that jurisdiction in Scott County. So we called the detective, he met us at the sheriff's department, and we started explaining to him. And you can imagine it's. This is not an easy case to explain. Nothing about this case was, was easy to explain anytime you tried to explain it.

[Narrator]

For instance, on November 27, as they were allegedly poisoning Harold, Ashley texted Marsha the wait. It takes 12 hours for a woman at 180 to feel anything. You do the math. LOL. It's slow and previously Ty was only 120. LOL. So it's the weight. Marcia wrote back, so it's going to take a while. Ashley responded, 48 max. We will know. We reached out to Scott County Prosecutor Chris Owens who confirmed he's reviewing the case to decide whether or not to file criminal charges. He declined to comment further on the details about Ashley's late husband's death. In the end, neither Marcia Allen nor Ashley Jones stood trial for Harold Allen Jr's death. After her four hour interview, Marsha was allowed to leave. She wasn't arrested because the Sheriff's department was still building their case. And so Marsha went home. But instead of awaiting an arrest or trying to flee, she died by suicide. Authorities discovered her body at her house.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

It was tough losing her in that case because I really wanted her to face justice and wanted, you know, the whole system to, to play out. You know, I wanted this case to play out and, and her to have to answer to what she done. I was defeated that night. Like, I mean we, we hadn't interviewed Ashley yet, so I didn't know where that stood. You know, she was, Ashley was actually being transported that night back from Missouri because we had went out to Missouri to arrest her on the burglary charges, but hadn't even talked to her about the murder charge or the murder of Harold at all. She had no idea we even knew about Harold's death. And so I knew she was on her way back. This had just happened. Marcia and Ashley weren't getting along anyways because of the burglary and hadn't talked since the burglary. And you know, I wanted, I wanted to arrest her that day and didn't get to. So I was really defeated.

[Narrator]

As for Ashley, she ended up taking a plea deal. On September 23, 2025, Ashley was in court for her sentencing hearing in Brownstown, Indiana. She spoke briefly. Here's what she said. I'd like to apologize for my actions to the victim and their family. I know that it doesn't take anything back and it doesn't change the pain that my actions have caused for them, but I'm aware of the ripple effect that it has caused for not only their family, but mine. I've Caused embarrassment and shame on my family's behalf. My actions have not only taken Harold away from their family, it's taken my mother away from ours. And now I have orphaned my daughter. So I am aware of the pain I've caused everyone, and I regret it. And I'm sorry, and it does not change it. I want them to know I'm not just sitting there and not thinking about it. I do. I have nightmares over it, and rightfully so. Lieutenant Nicholson read the most damning text messages once again, this time on the public record for the family to hear. He didn't believe Ashley was truly sorry. And then Harold's family got a chance to speak. They remembered the man they affectionately called Peanut. They said how he loved Christmas and how he enjoyed buying presents for his family. He had already mailed early Christmas gifts that arrived after he had been murdered. They said he was full of different talents. He played his mandolin in the basement to his family. He revved his motorcycle. He wasn't a father to biological children, so he found pleasure in doting on nieces and nephews. Then they said he fell in love with Marcia and his life unraveled. Soon after, Samantha Allen said this in her victim impact statement. Peanut was so excited and hopeful about a new relationship he was in. And that's when we met Marsha for the first time. We were friendly when we were around each other, but her emotions never felt genuine. They poisoned him on the day of our Thanksgiving meal. They hoped he would die while visiting his mother. Instead, we all watched him suffer facial numbness, intestinal distress, full body sweats, severe abdominal pain, and losing consciousness. We forced them to go to the error, while Marsha seemed unbothered by the events. I reached out in desperation to Marsha for any answers and explanation. But I am haunted by the messages that came after his death. Saying she couldn't stand the thought of him being mistreated, that she was sick from crying so much, and how she just needs him there. A majority of our family had unsettling feelings and suspicions about his death from the beginning. But we dismissed them because there was just nothing we gained from such an outlandish act. Then Samantha spoke directly to Ashley. You decided multiple times over months to continue to live each day in a home that Peanut provided with your mother and your own daughter. Watching the effects of the torture you were inflicting, hoping this would be the time that you finally took his life. You continued to make plan after plan with such disregard for his life that you could make jokes and find a way for him to be responsible for not dying fast enough and calling him lazy. And this is where I see that you are your mother's daughter. Jackson Circuit Court Judge Richard Poitner sentenced Ashley Jones to 50 years in prison. Although Ashley was not a convicted murderer, the two charges she pleaded guilty to were conspiracy to commit murder and attempted murder by aiding, inducing, or causing. And that's all for this episode. This episode was researched and written by Gabrielle Roussen. A special thank you to Lieutenant Adam Nicholson for helping us with this key case and telling the story of what happened to Harold Allen Jr. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.

[Ad Host 1]

Hello and welcome to Pluto Foe. If you know the name of the movie you'd like to see, just stream it for free on Pluto tv, where all your blockbuster favorites are landing all summer long. Catch. Anchorman. The Legend of Ron Burgundy.

[Narrator]

Fantastic.

[Ad Host 1]

Men in Black, one through three.

[Detective Clint Burcham]

That's what I'm talking about.

[Ad Host 1]

Mean girls.

[Narrator]

Shut up.

[Ad Host 1]

Titanic.

[Interviewer]

I'm the king of the world.

[Ad Host 1]

And so much more. For Showtime's press, nothing. They're free 24. 7.

[Narrator]

That is so effective on Pluto TV.

[Ad Host 1]

Stream now pay. Never.

[Ken Parenti]

He gave me a book on art forgery. I found myself drawn to these old masters. How did these artists take paint from a palette, arrange it on a canvas? I began to unlock the secrets. I was a storehouse of knowledge of how to create an illusion, present it to a experienced expert, manipulate his mind and convince him and bring him to the inevitable conclusion that the painting is genuine. We flooded the market with my paintings, and I couldn't believe what I did. I couldn't believe it. Then the dominoes started falling, and eventually the FBI were led to my door. They uncovered a mountain of evidence against

[Jordan Harbinger]

me, but they never, never actually got you. At this point, you've sold a lot. You've got like a million dollars in cash. You sold One painting for 717,000. Why did it go away? Why did you never get indicted? And how are we having this conversation?

[Ken Parenti]

I guess that's the greatest story of all.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To hear how Ken Parenti made millions in art forgery, dodged the mafia and the FBI. Subscribe to subscribe to the Jordan Harbinger show and check out episode 282 in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now.

[Oregon Lottery Announcer]

Oregon parks make an Oregon summer. But what makes an Oregon park? Well, Oregon lottery. Gameplay helps. No matter the game megabucks, video lottery or keno funds from lottery games help support parks projects across the state, ensuring they stay safe, accessible, and open for all. In fact, in fact, discover State Park Scratches are in stores now. It's the perfect way to put a little bit of Oregon's parks in your pocket. The Oregon Lottery. Together we do good things. Must be 18 or older to play Lottery games are based on chance and should be played for entertainment only.