Podcast Summary: Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast
Episode: “Pulitzer Prize Winner: How to Speak So People Actually Listen | Charles Duhigg”
Date: August 21, 2025
Host: Craig Groeschel
Guest: Charles Duhigg (Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist, author of “The Power of Habit” and “Super Communicators”)
Overview
This episode explores the science and art of effective communication and habit formation, featuring insights from Charles Duhigg. The discussion blends leadership strategies, organizational culture, and personal growth, focusing on actionable ways to become a “super communicator” and to leverage keystone habits for cascading positive change. Craig and Charles share personal stories, practical frameworks, and research-backed advice for both individual leaders and organizations.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Myth of Inborn Communication Skills
[00:00–01:19]
- Charles debunks the idea that some people are simply born “great communicators.” Instead, the best communicators are “people who think about communication and who practice it.”
“Practice has to include you doing it wrong sometimes so you can learn from those experiences.” — Charles Duhigg [00:00]
2. The Power of Keystone Habits
[01:23–06:46]
- Keystone habits create chain reactions, making other habits easier to develop. Examples: daily exercise, morning routines, or even making your bed.
- Craig shares how Charles’ keystone habit framework allowed him to “obsess about some habits that… create a compounding chain of other positive habits.” [03:30]
- Charles emphasizes that these are highly personal:
“Look for the types of change that seem irrationally hard or scary to you… That’s the kind of change that… will be a keystone habit.” [04:59]
3. Organizational Habits & Accidental Keystone Habits
[06:46–12:03]
- Craig describes a practice at Life.Church where all staff regularly participate in stage communication drills, leading inadvertently to a culture of giving and receiving feedback—a “key ingredient” to team growth.
- Charles connects this to creating “psychological safety,” referencing Harvard Business School research that proves its essential role in successful teams:
“Building psychological safety is not something that’s natural to anyone. We have to practice doing it.” [09:36]
4. Identifying High-Leverage Changes
[12:03–16:29]
- Charles tells the story of Alcoa’s accidental transformation under a new CEO who made safety the focus, which cascaded into productivity, communication, profitability.
- Leaders can identify such “pressure points” in any organization by asking: If you had a magic wand, what’s the one thing you’d change? Drill down to root causes—often entrenched policies, bureaucracy, or “organizational scar tissue.”
“Once we begin valorizing the behavior that you hope to see... then that behavior becomes more acceptable, and that’s when we start to see a change in how people behave.” [14:43]
5. Personal vs. Public Communication: Mindset & Strategy
[16:29–19:47]
-
Charles introduces three “buckets” of conversation:
- Practical (solving problems, plans)
- Emotional (sharing feelings, seeking empathy)
- Social (relational, communal connection)
-
Leaders often mismatch their approach to the listener’s mindset; effective communication begins by matching the audience’s or colleague’s mood first.
“If I’m in an emotional mindset and you’re in a practical mindset, we’re like two ships passing in the night.” — Charles Duhigg [17:06]
6. Engaging Audiences & Establishing Permission
[19:47–23:05]
- Best practice is to start with the audience’s state of mind—ask “meta-questions” to gauge what’s present emotionally or practically.
- In large groups: Start with relatable questions (“What’s a habit you’d like to change?”) to open dialogue and signal awareness of their mindset.
“By asking that question, you’re getting a sense of how you can match them.” [21:23]
7. Nonverbal Cues & Mirroring Engagement
[24:09–27:05]
-
Effective communicators unconsciously read emotional states through laughter, facial expressions, and group dynamics.
-
Training: Watch videos with the sound muted to focus on cues; practice mirroring and emotional variety in delivery.
“You can say the same thing in different ways, and it can hit, it can miss, it can backfire.” — Craig Groeschel [26:49]
8. One-on-One Developmental Conversations
[27:05–39:36]
- The importance of starting such conversations by understanding (not guessing) the other person’s mindset—use deep questions about values, beliefs, experiences.
- Sequence: Emotional safety → Application of practical solutions → Clarification and emotional closure using “looping for understanding.”
- “Looping for understanding” steps:
- Ask for their takeaway.
- Repeat back what you heard.
- Get confirmation/correction.
-
“You’re doing them an act of kindness by saying, loop for understanding… Not only does that reinforce those lessons, it also makes us feel like we’ve been heard.” — Charles Duhigg [37:59]
9. Self-Assessment & Communication Growth
[39:36–41:22]
-
Ask others for feedback—even though it can be “an ego blow.”
-
Engage in cognitive routines: personal reflection, journaling, discussions with family.
“Those moments, those cognitive habits, …that’s how we figure out, did I really connect with this person?” — Charles Duhigg [39:50]
10. Leadership Mistakes in Communication
[41:22–45:24]
- Leaders’ common pitfalls:
- Talking too much, not listening enough.
- Assuming their own agenda is shared.
- Asking questions that are intimidating rather than open (e.g., “Critique me” is less effective than “What about your experience here would you do the same or differently as a leader?”).
- Failing to model the communication behaviors they want to see.
11. Building a Culture of Communication: Meta-Conversations
[45:24–48:40]
-
To improve teamwide communication, have “meta conversations”—talk about how you’re talking.
-
Practice skills like looping, calling out miscommunication as it appears, and creating exercises around recognizing mindsets.
“Communication is not easy. It’s not natural. It’s something that we learn to do and we practice.” — Charles Duhigg [47:01]
12. Know, Feel, Do: The Essential Communication Framework
[48:40–50:52]
-
Craig’s actionable formula:
- Know: What do I want them to know?
- Feel: What do I want them to feel?
- Do: What do I want them to do?
-
Most communicators stop at know/do; “feel” drives actual change.
“Emotions impact every conversation we have, whether we’re aware of them or not.” — Charles Duhigg [49:50]
13. Direct Feedback & Interviewing Techniques
[52:38–54:50]
-
Charles offers feedback to Craig: empathy is apparent, and a “messy” conversation often indicates real engagement.
-
The best interviews/conversations allow for interruptions and passionate debate, which can indicate both parties are present and invested.
“The best conversations usually are messy…when people interrupt each other…that’s when a conversation sort of transcends to a higher level.” — Charles Duhigg [54:50]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “Practice has to include you doing it wrong sometimes so you can learn from those experiences.” – Charles Duhigg [00:00]
- “Look for the types of change that seem irrationally hard or scary to you… That’s the kind of change that… will be a keystone habit.” – Charles Duhigg [04:59]
- “When we shift that part of our brain through our behavior, we invite ourselves to see ourselves in a new light.” — Charles Duhigg [05:56]
- “Within organizations, creating psychological safety is the most important aspect of helping a team gel together.” — Charles Duhigg [09:36]
- “If I’m in an emotional mindset and you’re in a practical mindset, we’re like two ships passing in the night.” — Charles Duhigg [17:06]
- “Loop for understanding… Let’s check in with each other. Did I get it right? Am I hearing you correctly?” — Charles Duhigg [37:59]
- “As a leader…you make so many assumptions and so many mistakes. Mistake number one is we talk too much. We don’t listen enough.” — Craig Groeschel [41:22]
- “Communication is not easy. It’s not natural. It’s something that we learn to do and we practice.” — Charles Duhigg [47:01]
- “Emotions impact every conversation we have, whether we’re aware of them or not.” — Charles Duhigg [49:50]
- “The best conversations usually are messy…when people interrupt each other…that’s when a conversation sort of transcends to a higher level.” — Charles Duhigg [54:50]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [00:00–00:22] – The myth of natural communicators
- [02:09–04:50] – Keystone habits and their ripple effects
- [06:46–09:36] – Organizational habits and psychological safety
- [12:03–16:29] – Keystone habits in organizational leadership
- [17:06–19:47] – Types of conversations: practical, emotional, social
- [24:09–27:05] – Nonverbal cues and deliberate speaker training
- [28:32–30:41] – Questions to create safety in one-on-one conversations
- [37:59–39:36] – “Looping for understanding” technique
- [41:22–45:24] – Leadership communication pitfalls and self-assessment
- [47:01–48:40] – Creating a culture of communication (meta-conversations)
- [48:40–50:52] – The “know, feel, do” framework for effective messaging
- [54:50–55:40] – Feedback on interviewing and the value of conversational messiness
Resource Links
- Charles Duhigg: charlesduhigg.com
- Charles’ Substack: "Science of Better"
- Books mentioned:
- The Power of Habit
- Smarter, Faster, Better
- Super Communicators
Actionable Takeaways for Leaders
- Identify and cultivate keystone habits, both personally and organizationally.
- Build a feedback-rich, psychologically safe environment using regular practice and meta-conversations.
- Match your communication style to your audience’s or counterpart’s current mindset before moving to practical solutions.
- Practice “looping for understanding” to ensure clarity and connection.
- Develop the habit of regularly seeking feedback, allowing for growth.
This episode affirms: Leadership and communication are crafts—requiring thoughtful practice, courageous feedback, and a willingness to embrace both the messy and the transformative in every conversation.