Crazy Love Podcast Summary

Episode: Communion, Protestantism, & the Love of God (Pt. 1)
Date: December 1, 2025
Guests: Francis Chan & Gavin Ortlund
Host: Crazy Love Ministries

Episode Overview

This episode features an honest and deeply reflective conversation between Francis Chan and Gavin Ortlund exploring the meaning and practice of communion, the diversity within Protestantism, and the broader question of Christian unity amidst a polarized, often fractious church environment. Chan and Ortlund discuss their theological journeys, the importance of humility and love in dialogue, and lessons from both early church history and modern experience. Throughout, both emphasize the centrality of the Gospel and the need for relational reverence among Christians.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Spiritual Seasons and Renewed Faith (02:00–07:30)

• Francis Chan shares how he's been experiencing a renewal of childlike faith, particularly inspired by his recent readings of the Gospels and reconnecting with high school friends from his early days of faith.
• He reflects on the role of older leaders according to Numbers 8—“guarding” and mentoring younger ones in ministry rather than focusing solely on personal leadership (05:15).
  • Quote: “Wouldn't it be so much better if I poured myself in to these 25 year olds and guarded them?” – Francis Chan (06:44)

2. The Digital Age and Church Division (07:32–13:49)

• Both discuss how the advent of social media and internet commentary has worsened church polarization and fostered a culture where everyone can claim theological authority.
  • Chan: “Anyone listening to this could start a podcast today, and they truly believe in their heart they are the authority.” (09:11)
  • Ortlund: “The way our conversations are happening seems trending in the wrong direction in terms of just Christian love.” (08:15)
• They identify a culture of online theological “rancor,” and the dangers of seeking popularity through controversy.
  • Quote: “God’s love is not going to get you a lot of clicks, but ‘[x] is the most heretical person on this planet’ is going to get so many more views.” – Chan (10:53)

3. Practicing Charity and Humility in Debate (13:49–18:16)

• Chan praises Ortlund’s charitable style in public theological critique and urges that correction should come with respect, humility, and recognition of the Holy Spirit’s presence in fellow believers.
  • Chan: “At the end of the day, we’re supposed to resemble Jesus…when we're talking about fellow believers, there needs to be, like, some reverence.” (14:24)
• Both discuss how watching and engaging in polemics can be harmful if it departs from Christlikeness.
• Chan reflects on learning from perspectives outside his tradition, especially from Orthodox and Catholic writers on the Eucharist.

4. Communion and the Eucharist: Rethinking the Center (18:16–29:08)

• Chan’s Journey: He describes how exposure to the historic practice of the Eucharist in Catholic and Orthodox traditions challenged his Zwinglian upbringing (“it’s just a symbol”) and sparked a desire for greater reverence.
  • “I never knew that the real presence of Christ was an option for Protestants ... it was just a symbol, nothing more.” – Chan (18:54)
• Discusses the symbolic and actual de-centering of communion in many Protestant traditions and the longing to make it central and sacred again.
  • “To me, is it the most sacred thing we do now is partake [communion]?” – Chan (24:49)
• Illustrates the tension with exclusivist Eucharistic theologies which bar even exemplary Christians like Joni Eareckson Tada from the table due to institutional boundaries (29:10–32:19).

5. Humility, History, and Protestant Heritage (21:58–37:18)

• Gavin Ortlund highlights the “messiness” and diversity of church history—including among early fathers, reformers, and even within modern traditions.
  • “Protestantism is an ocean. There's so much to it…” – Ortlund (22:37)
• Both advocate for humility in the face of complex historical realities and encourage Protestants to recover richness (including a historically robust view of communion and the “real presence”).
  • “As Protestants, let’s retrieve and redeem the riches of our own heritage…” – Ortlund (36:44)
• Chan notes he was never put off by Protestantism for being anti-intellectual, but often by pride and a lack of spiritual fruit among those most focused on scholarship.

6. Unity in a Fractured Age: Theological & Pastoral Reflections (39:30–47:50)

• Unity is essential, but never at the expense of truth; grounding unity in the Gospel remains primary.
  • “Anytime I would read the Scriptures and be very convicted about how the Father wants his children united...God wants this.” – Chan (39:33)
• Both discuss how institutional claims to being the “one true church” (in Catholic and Orthodox traditions) pose both challenges and sorrows for Protestant unity, especially when the on-the-ground reality is more complex.
• Chan reflects on meeting Pope Francis and being surprised by his humility and desire for Jesus’ centrality in the church rather than mere institutional loyalty (41:00).

7. The Practical Pursuit of Unity (47:00–51:50)

• Ortlund shares his vision: unity rooted in the Gospel, practiced among those who truly confess Christ in word and sacrament—regardless of denominational affiliation.
  • “My vision of the church is wherever you have the true gospel of Jesus Christ proclaimed with word and sacrament. Those are my brothers and my sisters.” – Ortlund (48:23)
• Emphasizes a practical, bottom-up vision, focused on where the Holy Spirit is active and relationships are authentic, rather than mere institutional alignment or formal ties.

8. The Centrality of the Gospel and Ministry Experiences (51:50–61:40)

• Chan shares a moving story about preaching the Gospel to charismatic Catholics whose hunger, humility, and reverence confounded his assumptions and point toward authentic unity around the Gospel.
  • “That room felt very much like, wow, you love the gospel. You get the gospel.” (54:14)
• Both emphasize the importance of humility, ongoing learning, and the willingness to thank and receive loving correction from one another.
  • Chan: “Thank you for correcting me in love and treating me as a brother and not just rolling your eyes...” (59:52)
• Chan expresses a prayerful hope for a new generation of Christians who will study deeply and love well.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Chan: “Wouldn’t it be so much better if I poured myself into these 25-year-olds and guarded them, just even two or three of them, than the multiplication and the longevity…” (06:44)
• Chan: “Anyone listening to this could start a podcast today, and they truly believe in their heart they are the authority…” (09:11)
• Ortlund: “The way our conversations are happening seems trending in the wrong direction in terms of just Christian love.” (08:15)
• Chan: “At the end of the day, we’re supposed to resemble Jesus. Like, that’s like, I want his humility. I want his love. He was bold. He was direct. But when we’re talking about fellow believers, there needs to be, like, some reverence…” (14:24)
• Chan: “I never knew that the real presence of Christ was an option for Protestants. I just thought it was more of a Zwinglian view—that I was taught: It’s just a symbol, nothing more…” (18:54)
• Ortlund: “Protestantism is an ocean. There’s so much to it…” (22:37)
• Chan: “To me, is it the most sacred thing we do now is partake [communion]?” (24:49)
• Ortlund: “My vision of the church is wherever you have the true gospel of Jesus Christ proclaimed with word and sacrament. Those are my brothers and my sisters.” (48:23)
• Chan: “Thank you for correcting me in love and treating me as a brother and not just rolling your eyes…” (59:52)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:00–07:30: Francis Chan shares about faith renewal, mentoring younger leaders
• 07:32–13:49: The impact of technology on church unity and discourse
• 13:49–18:16: Healthy disagreement and humility in public theological dialogue
• 18:16–29:08: Chan’s journey toward deeper reverence for the Eucharist; learning from other traditions
• 29:10–37:18: The challenge of Eucharistic exclusivism and recovering Protestant heritage
• 39:30–47:00: Unity, truth, and the challenge of institutional claims
• 47:00–51:50: Ortlund’s practical vision of gospel-centered unity
• 51:50–61:40: Ministry anecdotes, importance of the gospel, and gratitude for mutual correction

Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is gracious, honest, occasionally vulnerable, and marked by mutual respect—even when discussing significant disagreements. Both Chan and Ortlund urge greater humility, depth, and love as essential for Christian unity and for healing divisions, with frequent reminders that the core of spiritual life and unity is the person and work of Jesus Christ.

This episode will be especially enriching for listeners wrestling with questions about church history, sacramental theology, inter-denominational dialogue, and the challenges of being faithful Christians in a divisive digital age.