Communion, Protestantism, & the Love of God (Pt. 1) | Francis Chan & Gavin Ortlund

Summary

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Crazy Love Podcast Summary

Episode: Communion, Protestantism, & the Love of God (Pt. 1)
Date: December 1, 2025
Guests: Francis Chan & Gavin Ortlund
Host: Crazy Love Ministries

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Episode Overview

This episode features an honest and deeply reflective conversation between Francis Chan and Gavin Ortlund exploring the meaning and practice of communion, the diversity within Protestantism, and the broader question of Christian unity amidst a polarized, often fractious church environment. Chan and Ortlund discuss their theological journeys, the importance of humility and love in dialogue, and lessons from both early church history and modern experience. Throughout, both emphasize the centrality of the Gospel and the need for relational reverence among Christians.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Spiritual Seasons and Renewed Faith (02:00–07:30)

• Francis Chan shares how he's been experiencing a renewal of childlike faith, particularly inspired by his recent readings of the Gospels and reconnecting with high school friends from his early days of faith.
• He reflects on the role of older leaders according to Numbers 8—“guarding” and mentoring younger ones in ministry rather than focusing solely on personal leadership (05:15).
  • Quote: “Wouldn't it be so much better if I poured myself in to these 25 year olds and guarded them?” – Francis Chan (06:44)

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2. The Digital Age and Church Division (07:32–13:49)

• Both discuss how the advent of social media and internet commentary has worsened church polarization and fostered a culture where everyone can claim theological authority.
  • Chan: “Anyone listening to this could start a podcast today, and they truly believe in their heart they are the authority.” (09:11)
  • Ortlund: “The way our conversations are happening seems trending in the wrong direction in terms of just Christian love.” (08:15)
• They identify a culture of online theological “rancor,” and the dangers of seeking popularity through controversy.
  • Quote: “God’s love is not going to get you a lot of clicks, but ‘[x] is the most heretical person on this planet’ is going to get so many more views.” – Chan (10:53)

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3. Practicing Charity and Humility in Debate (13:49–18:16)

• Chan praises Ortlund’s charitable style in public theological critique and urges that correction should come with respect, humility, and recognition of the Holy Spirit’s presence in fellow believers.
  • Chan: “At the end of the day, we’re supposed to resemble Jesus…when we're talking about fellow believers, there needs to be, like, some reverence.” (14:24)
• Both discuss how watching and engaging in polemics can be harmful if it departs from Christlikeness.
• Chan reflects on learning from perspectives outside his tradition, especially from Orthodox and Catholic writers on the Eucharist.

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4. Communion and the Eucharist: Rethinking the Center (18:16–29:08)

• Chan’s Journey: He describes how exposure to the historic practice of the Eucharist in Catholic and Orthodox traditions challenged his Zwinglian upbringing (“it’s just a symbol”) and sparked a desire for greater reverence.
  • “I never knew that the real presence of Christ was an option for Protestants ... it was just a symbol, nothing more.” – Chan (18:54)
• Discusses the symbolic and actual de-centering of communion in many Protestant traditions and the longing to make it central and sacred again.
  • “To me, is it the most sacred thing we do now is partake [communion]?” – Chan (24:49)
• Illustrates the tension with exclusivist Eucharistic theologies which bar even exemplary Christians like Joni Eareckson Tada from the table due to institutional boundaries (29:10–32:19).

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5. Humility, History, and Protestant Heritage (21:58–37:18)

• Gavin Ortlund highlights the “messiness” and diversity of church history—including among early fathers, reformers, and even within modern traditions.
  • “Protestantism is an ocean. There's so much to it…” – Ortlund (22:37)
• Both advocate for humility in the face of complex historical realities and encourage Protestants to recover richness (including a historically robust view of communion and the “real presence”).
  • “As Protestants, let’s retrieve and redeem the riches of our own heritage…” – Ortlund (36:44)
• Chan notes he was never put off by Protestantism for being anti-intellectual, but often by pride and a lack of spiritual fruit among those most focused on scholarship.

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6. Unity in a Fractured Age: Theological & Pastoral Reflections (39:30–47:50)

• Unity is essential, but never at the expense of truth; grounding unity in the Gospel remains primary.
  • “Anytime I would read the Scriptures and be very convicted about how the Father wants his children united...God wants this.” – Chan (39:33)
• Both discuss how institutional claims to being the “one true church” (in Catholic and Orthodox traditions) pose both challenges and sorrows for Protestant unity, especially when the on-the-ground reality is more complex.
• Chan reflects on meeting Pope Francis and being surprised by his humility and desire for Jesus’ centrality in the church rather than mere institutional loyalty (41:00).

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7. The Practical Pursuit of Unity (47:00–51:50)

• Ortlund shares his vision: unity rooted in the Gospel, practiced among those who truly confess Christ in word and sacrament—regardless of denominational affiliation.
  • “My vision of the church is wherever you have the true gospel of Jesus Christ proclaimed with word and sacrament. Those are my brothers and my sisters.” – Ortlund (48:23)
• Emphasizes a practical, bottom-up vision, focused on where the Holy Spirit is active and relationships are authentic, rather than mere institutional alignment or formal ties.

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8. The Centrality of the Gospel and Ministry Experiences (51:50–61:40)

• Chan shares a moving story about preaching the Gospel to charismatic Catholics whose hunger, humility, and reverence confounded his assumptions and point toward authentic unity around the Gospel.
  • “That room felt very much like, wow, you love the gospel. You get the gospel.” (54:14)
• Both emphasize the importance of humility, ongoing learning, and the willingness to thank and receive loving correction from one another.
  • Chan: “Thank you for correcting me in love and treating me as a brother and not just rolling your eyes...” (59:52)
• Chan expresses a prayerful hope for a new generation of Christians who will study deeply and love well.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Chan: “Wouldn’t it be so much better if I poured myself into these 25-year-olds and guarded them, just even two or three of them, than the multiplication and the longevity…” (06:44)
• Chan: “Anyone listening to this could start a podcast today, and they truly believe in their heart they are the authority…” (09:11)
• Ortlund: “The way our conversations are happening seems trending in the wrong direction in terms of just Christian love.” (08:15)
• Chan: “At the end of the day, we’re supposed to resemble Jesus. Like, that’s like, I want his humility. I want his love. He was bold. He was direct. But when we’re talking about fellow believers, there needs to be, like, some reverence…” (14:24)
• Chan: “I never knew that the real presence of Christ was an option for Protestants. I just thought it was more of a Zwinglian view—that I was taught: It’s just a symbol, nothing more…” (18:54)
• Ortlund: “Protestantism is an ocean. There’s so much to it…” (22:37)
• Chan: “To me, is it the most sacred thing we do now is partake [communion]?” (24:49)
• Ortlund: “My vision of the church is wherever you have the true gospel of Jesus Christ proclaimed with word and sacrament. Those are my brothers and my sisters.” (48:23)
• Chan: “Thank you for correcting me in love and treating me as a brother and not just rolling your eyes…” (59:52)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:00–07:30: Francis Chan shares about faith renewal, mentoring younger leaders
• 07:32–13:49: The impact of technology on church unity and discourse
• 13:49–18:16: Healthy disagreement and humility in public theological dialogue
• 18:16–29:08: Chan’s journey toward deeper reverence for the Eucharist; learning from other traditions
• 29:10–37:18: The challenge of Eucharistic exclusivism and recovering Protestant heritage
• 39:30–47:00: Unity, truth, and the challenge of institutional claims
• 47:00–51:50: Ortlund’s practical vision of gospel-centered unity
• 51:50–61:40: Ministry anecdotes, importance of the gospel, and gratitude for mutual correction

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Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is gracious, honest, occasionally vulnerable, and marked by mutual respect—even when discussing significant disagreements. Both Chan and Ortlund urge greater humility, depth, and love as essential for Christian unity and for healing divisions, with frequent reminders that the core of spiritual life and unity is the person and work of Jesus Christ.

This episode will be especially enriching for listeners wrestling with questions about church history, sacramental theology, inter-denominational dialogue, and the challenges of being faithful Christians in a divisive digital age.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Crazy Love podcast.

[B]

What does it really mean to pursue unity? The church and society at large are becoming increasingly polarized and divisive. As Christians, we have a responsibility to pursue both truth and unity. In this episode, Francis sits down with Gavin Ortland to discuss their views on the Eucharist and other theological issues, while also speaking to the broader question of how to engage in these dialogues with.

[A]

Humility, grace, and love. Well, Francis, I feel so honored to talk with you. I have such a love in my heart for you and an affection for you as my brother in Christ. I think maybe I just. We were talking beforehand, and I said, get these questions out of here. Let's just talk. And I thought, you know, it'd be fun to share how we got to know each other.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I was so embarrassed. I put out a video, you know, interacting with your views on communion or the Lord's Supper. And then a couple years later, I checked my email inbox and I had an email from you, and I felt so awesome. Oh, this is so great that we got together and we were able to pray together and talk. I was so humbled by your kindness and just how gracious you were and talking all that through. And I would love for us to just talk through kind of, you know, your views on communion. We were talking a moment ago. There's such a hunger in hearts right now. Substance and for truth. And people are searching and, you know, truth unites, exists to try to meet those needs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think just us talking this through will be edifying for people. But maybe to start with, tell us a little bit, what are you up to these days? What is God teaching you these days? What is life like these days?

[B]

Okay, well, I do want to get back to that video that you made of me. But first, ah, gosh, life has been so good. I just feel like the Lord is just stirring in me this childlike faith that I feel like I had when I first believed. I don't know, it's weird at my age and stage of life, you know, with seven kids, five grandkids, and just. I don't know, it's just. There's been a shift. There's. It's just a new season, and I love it. And I'm feeling like my heart just sensitive to things I haven't been sensitive to in years. Reading the scriptures with a new faith. You know, these last two days, I've been in Luke 7 and 8, and just the faith of the centurion, the faith of the woman that was reaching Out Jesus, you know, bringing a guy back from the dead, you know, it's just on and on about faith, faith, faith. And I've been reaching out to friends of mine from high school. So I had like a 40 year reunion and it was like the greatest time. But suddenly it's like, wow, I haven't seen these guys in 40 years. You, longer than most people listening to this have been alive. And my heart and love for them, remembering, that's when I gave my life to the Lord. And I tried to share with all of these guys and I tried to get everyone in the gym so I could share the gospel with them at public school. And I'm believing he's going to do that. I prayed for that when I was a teenager and I go, that could happen today. Like faith. God heard every prayer of mine when I was a teenager. And yeah, maybe he's just waiting 40 years and I'm going to fill up that gymnasium. So I have dreams of that and you know, just like anything, you can do anything. So that's all good. Stop me if I'm talking too much. Oh, good. I love it. But then the other thing that the Lord's really convicted me about is in Numbers, chapter eight, the retirement of the Levites. I was reading that like eight years ago because I was 58 years ago. And it's one of those passages I never noticed. And then I'm reading it, it's in my Bible reading and like, wait, God, you would have me retire at 50? Like that's it, I'm 50 right now. I'm in great shape, I'm mature, I'm not like when I was in my 20s, I feel like this is the best season and you would have me retire if I was a Levite back then, you know, and I'm praying through it and going, God, why? Like, first I'm glad I didn't live back then. Secondly, would you really have me, you know, step back? Like this doesn't make sense. But the more I studied, the more I prayed that morning, the more I felt like God just revealed, like, well, they didn't stop doing anything. It says, now you guard the 25 year olds. And I go, but I have so much energy. He goes, yeah, to guard the 25 year olds and make sure that they continue this sacred worship. And it just got me thinking, wow, when I look at the 25 year olds going into ministry, I have this assumption like they're not going to make it with all the criticism, with all the, I mean, we're Just seeing so many of our, well, my peers, your peers too, just falling like flies theologically into sin, everything else. And so you look at these young people that are instantly famous and you just go, they're not going to make it. And God is just showing me, well, what if they had the 50 something year old guy walking alongside them? And then he reminded me, I started my church when I was 26, but a 56 year old man came alongside of me and I go, wow, if I hadn't had him, what would my life look like? And how many of these guys don't have fathers? And if I just keep doing my thing, yeah, it'd be fine and I'll just preach till I die or whatever, but. But wouldn't it be so much better if I poured myself in to these 25 year olds and guarded them, just even two or three of them, than the multiplication and the longevity of, I don't know, I just saw the wisdom in his system and I thought, I want to do that. And I want to pour myself into these young leaders and help guard them from mistakes, mistakes I made, but also leading them into the things that I'm glad I stuck with and focused on.

[A]

I sense the same thing of just, you know, from when you made a ministry transition, I think it was like 2010 from Cornerstone, from then till now, 15 years. Boy, does the world feel different. I mean, even five years. But you know, and I don't, I can't, I don't even have words for it all. You're always wondering to what extent is the Internet affecting how I'm experiencing this. But honestly, it just feels like a tough time for the church. I mean, I sense so much division, discouragement. One of the things I want to talk to you about at some point is just the level of rancor in online discourse. I mean, even just this week, I've just been sort of, to be honest, just grieved at times and just thinking, boy, the way our conversations are happening seems trending in the wrong direction in terms of just Christian love. Because there's a lot we'll get into theology in this. But you know, one basic thing that you don't need to be a great theologian to know is Christians should love other Christians.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

And sometimes that is sorely lacking. So how does the world feel different to you now in 2025, we're recording this to back, say 2010. What feels different to you?

[B]

Oh gosh, so much. Yeah. It's also like I don't even know where to start because I'm trying to think back and go, gosh, when I started, or Even, I mean, 2010, I was already, you know, good 15, 17 years into being the pastor at Cornerstone. And it was just a different time where people actually followed a leader. It wasn't that hard to lead back then. For me, I enjoyed it. I mean, I started before there was Internet. I mean, the Internet had just come out, and so it was just like, oh, whoa, email. Like, this is crazy. Like, I just sent you a letter, you know, like, it was like this weird thing, but. And towards the tail end, that's when podcasts, you know, 2010 were happening. And I didn't even know all that was going on behind the scenes, as our video guys were. I didn't know what a podcast was. And they're like, oh, no, everyone's watching. And. And then pretty soon, okay, everyone's throwing, in their opinion. And it was very new. But now I think what's disheartening is we just started getting so fractured. And so forget denominations. It was just every man for himself. And now we're at a point where anyone listening to this could start a podcast today, and they're on their own and they truly believe in their heart they are the authority. And they could pick apart anything that we say, call us heretics, you know, or one of us or the other, depending on, and create a following. And it's like, wow, how is unity ever going to happen? And they'll say, I mean, because that's what they feel like they have to do to get views. Yeah, you start. It's a weird thing where you start looking at the success of, like, this based on how many people watched it. Right, right. And it's hard in the flesh not to just assume or get caught up in that. Oh, wow, 200,000 watch that one. And so then people starting a podcast or whatever, or running one, it's like, what's going to get the clicks? Well, you know, God's love is not going to get you a lot of clicks, but Gavin Ortland is the most heretical person on this planet. Stay away, you know, is going to get so many more views. And so it's hard not to exaggerate things.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Spin things, because that's what's gonna get the audience. And so then we just go back and forth and get louder and louder.

[A]

And over time, it's like it just builds and builds and builds, and it feels like it's getting to a point now where I think most of our viewers to this will probably know what we're talking about. And they'll probably have some sensitivity in their heart to say, yes, something is off here. What is the solution to it? Because I used to think, well, if you encourage people who have a podcast to be under their local church leadership, that will help. And I do think everyone who has a public voice should be under their local church's leadership. Then I discovered some of the people whose behavior is appalling are themselves pastors.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

And I thought, okay, wait a minute. So that's not the only solution here. And I don't have answers on this. I just. But I think just for us to talk about it and acknowledge this is an issue. We're not saying people shouldn't do theological polemics or disagreement. Of course not. We have to contend for the truth. But the way we do it, I mean, the only thing I know to say is for people to have a heart that is pierced by the love of God, like your wonderful book, which we'll talk about. Talks about, and to have a sense of being unmade by how much God loves you. You're unworthy of his love. You're a sinner, and yet he's just clothed you in the heavenly garments. He's wrapped you in his righteousness. He loves you with an infinite and everlasting love. He set his love upon you. If every morning, retune your heart to this and then put your video out, that's the only thing I know to do, and I've got to go back to that myself. And I know I'm not perfect. That's why when we talk about something, I, you know, I find out I put out a video about Francis. I'm going back. I'm saying, please, God, I hope this.

[B]

I hope I did it right. I hope this was okay. Well, here's. That's why I really got addicted to your videos. I mean, I really don't watch very many because it just. It breaks my heart watching some of this, because I feel like it breaks the Lord's heart. And I think what bothered me a lot of times when I'd read or watch these videos of different people is that from my perspective and my understanding of scripture, reading the Gospels over and over, I'm like, that doesn't sound like Jesus. That doesn't sound like the way he would talk, especially to the believers. This doesn't seem like what Paul was urging with. With all gentleness and humility. You know, it's like, is that all gentleness and humility? You know, bearing with one Another in love, eager to maintain. You know, I mean, at the end of the day, we're supposed to resemble Jesus. Like, that's like, I want his humility. I want his love. He was bold. He was direct. But when we're talking about fellow believers, there needs to be, like, some reverence of, like, hey, the Holy Spirit of God is inside of you. Like, okay, I want to be careful how I speak to you and address issues. And that's why I started watching your teachings at that. Oh, my gosh, he's doing it. I'm hearing you interact with, you know, guys that are Orthodox, guys that are Roman Catholic, and the grace and the love. And I just appreciated that. So I'm scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, and I see this one about Francis Chan. I'm like, no. I was like, oh. And I don't like to click those. Cause I'm like, oh, all it's gonna do is make me ang. And. But I pushed it and I watched it, and I'm like, oh, that's fair. Yeah, he's actually right. Yeah. It was on the. I was so fired up when I gave that message. And I still agree with, like, maybe 90% of it. And it wasn't that I was. What you were addressing was, okay, Francis is doing what a lot of people do. At first, you were so gracious in saying, look, I love Francis. He's poured in. I forget the exact words. But you were just so gracious. Like, I think you talked about the impact I had years ago or something like that. And that is so kind. And then you just says, you know, you weren't. You weren't addressing my heart. Like, he's evil. He's this, he's that. You. You actually said something to the lines of, I, like, it's a good thing I'm pursuing here, but here's where he's off. And I thought, no, he's right. And I saw that later on in my studies, before I saw your video, and I'm like, yeah, no, I discovered the same things. He's right. Like, I was so fired up because I had never really studied opposing views from their perspective. So seminary taught us, okay, read this book. This refutes this. Read this book. This refutes this. And stay away from these other people. But I began to read people from the Orthodox view and their view of the Protestant Church and our practice of the Eucharist. And I began to read Roman Catholic authors and their view of Protestantism and our low view of the Eucharist. And I'd never read Books like that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, I always wanted to hear from my side, you know, to prove my point. And some of the things they said about the Protestant church, I was like, ooh, yeah, it's hard to refute that or that or that. And then I started reading some of the ancient church fathers and what they said about the Eucharist, even some of the reformers. I'm like, I never knew that. I really didn't know that the real presence of Christ was an option for Protestants. I just thought it was more of a Zwinglian view that I was taught. It's just a symbol, nothing more. God's not there, just, you know, remember him. And yet I was just confused by it all. But I did feel like the bread and cup needed to be central and not our personalities. And I think it was the same time as I was just bothered by this doesn't make sense. Every man for himself, and let's just all vote on who's the best pastor and stand behind him and everyone else is a heretic. And it was just crushing me that this was happening in the body of Christ. So in my mind, the Eucharist could bring us back together. The body and blood of Christ, the very thing that was supposed to unite us, became the most divisive thing in the church. And could I be a part of bringing that back? And could we make it more central and can we really just be reverent? And I was largely influenced by Hank Hanegraaff. You know, we have a friendship. And as he was going through his whole transition into the Orthodox Church, you know, I'm just following and just as a friend, trying to understand and obviously respected his scholarship for so many years as the Bible answer man, and just trying to understand, why did you go into this? And so there was just a lot of this going on in my mind. But the more I studied and some of it, watching some of your videos, and you did such a great job of just sticking to the facts and going, hey, but here's what the official stance of the Church says. I'm like, oh, yeah. Which I do want to talk about, because it seems like there's an official stance to Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but that's not necessarily the most practiced stance. And that's where it gets confusing. It's like on paper, they are supposed to say this and believe this, but they don't. And it wasn't as uniform as I thought. And even the early church fathers weren't united on liturgies. And I thought in my Study I was going to find like, oh, yeah, everyone in the first 300 years went with this liturgy. Here's where it broke off and da, da, da. But I'm reading some early things going, oh, that guy disagreed with that guy. And that was pretty early on. This isn't so easy.

[A]

This is such a great point that I think is one reason I'm grateful to be a Protestant, and that is the sense of freedom. You have to acknowledge the messiness of church history because we would say the Holy Spirit has always. The Holy Spirit never fell asleep on the job. He's been guiding the church, directing the church, but that does not disagreement, and that does not stop sin from occurring and so forth. And I think the background context for me on all of these things, I mean, we'll have viewers from other traditions for this video. I want to honor them. I don't want them to feel like we're stamping on their toes or something like that. God bless them. We're not so much against them at a personal level, at least. Speaking from my own heart, as I want to celebrate the good of the Reformation of Protestantism. So a background context issue here for me is a lot of people grow up in an evangelical church and they've really not seen the riches of Protestantism. They maybe have never read the Puritans. They've never heard of John Owen. They've never, you know, got his eight volumes set on Hebrews. Like I've been working through and seeing, you know, they think of Protestantism as this very shallow reality. Whereas I want to celebrate, I think Protestantism is an ocean. There's so much to it. The martyrs, the missionaries, these different traditions. And one thing, a strength of Protestantism that I value is the ability to just acknowledge where there's been diversity and change throughout church history. I honestly feel free in my heart to just study the facts of church history. Now, for me, one of the things that means is I think some form of real presence in the Eucharist is overwhelming. And there's debates about how to understand that. But the basic fact of that, I think is very strong. And so that's where, as a Protestant, I say, okay. And lo and behold, I read the Reformers, and I find most of them believe that too. And I want to encourage young men, especially who are thinking about a pendulum swing, to consider the riches of Protestantism. It sounds like that's kind of where you've been thinking a little bit with the Eucharist. I mean, tell me more about your current views on the Eucharist. And where you land on some of those issues.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I'm a Bible guy. Like, I just, I love the word of God. And so I read it, read it, read it. I mean, last year I just said, okay, I'm going to read the entire Bible every month because I just want to know what this says. I want to get the flow, I want to get the context. There's so many voices out there. And so when it comes to the bread and the cup, I'm reading like 1 Corinthians 11. And I've studied it and I'm in its context and in context of the whole of scripture and Paul's warning of many of you are weak and sick and a number of you have died. And again, I try to, I try to read the Bible simply in some ways asking the Holy Spirit to just reveal these spiritual truths. I can't get, just as a natural man reveal it. And yet at the same time, like, where is it? You know, like in seminary we're taught, you know, if the literal sense makes sense, seek no other sense. And so what's the most obvious clear, otherwise we're doing all these crazy things to come up with our thoughts, theology. And I'm like, this really sounds like that holy of Holies. Like, hey, be careful with this. And you recognize the body of Christ. And it sure seems in context that it's talking about the body. You, me, you know, the other believers. And you could, from my understanding and my interpretation, you could die taking communion. I'm like, why does no one talk about this? It's like not warning about the holy of holies. You can't just walk in there like, this is sacred. It seems like the most sacred. I want to be careful. I don't want to over speak, but to me, is it the most sacred thing we do now is partake. And then all these years of like casually taking it or even as a pastor leading it and going, we don't have time. My sermon went over, we'll skip communion this week or skip it this month and push it off another week. And it's like, oh, gosh, I'm. I was so wanting to make one more point to my sermon that to push off. So that's where the sacred side of it. And then that's what got me studying and going, wow, they did really treat this as sacred. And then it really became about preaching and preaching styles and who's the best. And suddenly the table is pushed off to the side. So in my opinion, from my understanding of Church history. What Zwingli did in moving communion from center stage and putting the pulpit there, which I understand the word of God, and you can correct me if I'm off on that, I go, well, that symbolic moving really became like a actual shifting for a lot of people where it seemed like communion just got pushed further and further away to where it's attack on thing compared to what I was seeing in the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church where it's like, that's the center. Like they just. This is a very special thing. And that's where Hank was telling me about when the priests would walk in and just admit, like, I'm the highest of sinners, but I'm carrying something sacred. And he says the way it was, walked into the room and people would fall on their knees just recognizing the presence of Christ as a priest walked through, I'm like, oh, that sounds so much more beautiful, so much more honoring than the way I've done it all these years. And look at the way everyone's fighting in the Protestant church and protesting each other. I don't know, am I right? You know, maybe I've been on the wrong side of this thing. And, and, and there is something nice about having authority versus every man for himself, you know, So I was wrestling with all of those same things. But in some of your teachings, you, you did point out like, I get that, I get that. And we are a mess in so many ways.

[A]

But.

[B]

If you go to that other, I don't want to call it the other side, even if you just swing too far. Now you have to believe that Francis is actually accursed by God because he doesn't venerate icons. He's not worthy to come to the table because he's not a part of this particular church and he's not welcome to the table. Nor are all these, you know, saints to me, like, to me. I've met a lot of people and the most spirit filled person I've ever met, Christlike would be, in my opinion, Joni Eareckson. Tada. Oh, I love that woman. Me too. I just get teary thinking about her. Like I can't spend five minutes without her quoting scripture, singing a hymn. For those who don't know, she's been a quadriplegic for 60 years. Sweet. But she's not allowed at the communion table. Yeah, Christ doesn't welcome her. Okay, I can't do that. Yeah, I can't. I mean, so I haven't been a believer all these years. I know the richness of my time with the Lord. I know the way he answers me and loves me. And now on paper, at least in Orthodoxy, I'm not a son of God, you know, like, I can't believe that. And I'm not welcome to his table. I can't believe that. And he sees me as accursed because I don't venerate icons like, whoa. But I love these other things so much more than what I see in my own church. And that's what I wrestle with. I see a humility and a reverence that I don't get in mainstream Protestants. And maybe at the church where you, I mean, you're here, out here in Franklin, and maybe there is this reverence I haven't attended there, hope to one day. Because I'm like, okay, how do you. Because I sometimes go, I don't know what's worse though. I mean, I gotta believe that believing that I'm not a believer is worse and I'm not welcome to the table. But you know what I'm saying? There's like, it's not so easy to just go, we're right, they're wrong, they're doing a lot of things better. And it kills me.

[A]

This is a great point of just the need for humility in these conversations. Here's what I experienced. There's the trench warfare of Internet apologetics, and there's the Catholic apologist, the Orthodox apologist, the Protestant apologist, et cetera. And in the trench warfare, you can't yield an inch, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's like, no, wait a second. Let's go back to everything we were just saying about remembering my fundamental identity is I'm a. I'm loved by God, by grace, okay? I need to learn from people I disagree with now. And it's not about being right and being triumphalist. I really, it's wearisome, actually. So let's acknowledge where we can learn from people we disagree with. You know, like, here's a metaphor. If in a marriage relationship, let's say there's a divorce and let's say that the wife is justified in. Let's say it's a biblically justified divorce, the wife's life might still be diminished by now being single. Similarly, we can say that the Reformation is justified while still acknowledging, actually there's been this incredible fragmentation throughout Christendom that has had all kinds of long term consequences where we look down the road now. But a couple of things I want to say if it's okay. I was just at a conference this Past weekend with mostly Eastern Orthodox Christians and a few Catholics, we were coming together to talk about marriage, which I'm very happy to do. To be a co belligerent on a social issue, like that's an easy one for me. Like, you know, we got a lot of issues we need to work through in terms of where we agree and where we disagree. That's an easy agreement for me. Like I'm happy to just say, yeah, let's come together and defend marriage. So it was a great time. I really enjoyed being there. I met wonderful people. It's always much more pleasant in real life than the online, the way the Internet escalates things and changes things. But just from that and other experiences, I want to try to move towards their perspective as much as we can to acknowledge so they don't feel frustrated. So when we talk about being accursed for not venerating icons and not being a believer, not being walking to the table, what they will say is, especially the Catholics and most of the Orthodox today is they'll probably say you are a believer, though it depends on who you talk to.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And they'll also probably say a curse for no. They'll probably say they like to say no. The anathemas only apply to those inside the church. And there's a lot of things I don't actually know that that's authentic to Nicaea too and what the bishops themselves were saying.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[A]

But just to acknowledge, you know, most in those traditions won't come out and say that. However, here's where I think, I guess two points I would make is one is what you're saying about Catholicity and the wholeness of the Church. And where I think we can say as Protestants, there's a grief in us at the exclusivity of these other traditions claims. And even if we can debate with them about the implications of that here or there, it's just a fact that they claim to be the one true church. They don't think you and I have ever had a valid Eucharist ever. And there is this. Basically it's a unity on our terms. And I look at the church today, the way you expressed about Joni Eareckson Tada, a wonderful saint in the Lord. I feel this about so many of the people I know. I think of my granddad right now, the most Christlike man I've ever known. And you think, you know, you've got to have a vision of Catholicity that can account for the on the ground work of the Holy Spirit and where you see the Lord at work. So I think this is. I guess I'm just agreeing with you and sharing your burden about this, that this becomes a sticking point in the conversations. The claims of exclusive inclusivity in the other traditions, even if they're worked out to different extents, you know, in particular conversations and so forth. And then I'm wanting to emphasize that I think the reverence you're talking about can be had in many different Protestant contexts. And a lot of this is just what we've grown up here in US Evangelicalism.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

Because what you said a moment ago about the. Is the Lord's Supper the most sacred thing we do in this life?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That was what Charles Spurgeon said.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And he's a Baptist preacher, you know.

[B]

Exactly. And he said, the closest we get.

[A]

To heaven is at the Lord's table. And that's a historic Protestant view. And that's where my. Another grief in my heart is. As Protestants, let's retrieve and redeem the riches of our own heritage, including even, like, the Baptist tradition. You know, Baptists always believed in the real presence, and not all. Always. Most Baptists did in 17th century, 18th century. I would say it's more 19th century that you start to get some of these trajectories where it falls off. And so, yeah, I guess.

[B]

Please, I want to comment. Like, so earlier you said, you know, people are getting attracted to the Roman Catholic Orthodox because they look at Protestant as, like, maybe shallow or, you know, they're. But I guess for me, my experience was I was turned off. I didn't see Protestants as not studying or in fact, I came from very. Like, everything was about scholarship. The reason why it was turned. I wasn't turned off because it was shallow or they didn't study. I just saw the people that were most into scholarship. I didn't see the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. It led into this really harsh, like, wow, arrogant. So I didn't want. I almost shied away after a while, the way that we attacked certain people that I later got to know and go, this man is not ignorant of the Scriptures. He loves the Scriptures. He loves Jesus. I'm seeing the fruit of the Spirit. You know, this is more from the cessationist. I was a hardcore cessationist, to then meeting guys like Jack Hayford that I ended up befriending and going and seminary. I was told you were an idiot. Like, you knew nothing. You just dreamed and had visions. But he's tearing apart the Hebrew In a way that I'm like, this is beautiful. And so it just made me, like, gosh, that whole world of we're right, everyone else is wrong just made me feel like this is really bothering me. And yet somehow, you know, you don't see the ugliness of family till you're in it. And so I think that's what you brought to light, is be careful not to swing. Because we're all human here, and.

[A]

There'S.

[B]

Sin in both worlds. Let's just figure it out. I love the idea of truth uniting, because anytime I would read the Scriptures and be very convicted about how the father wants his children united, you know, as a father of seven, it's like, yes, I love the unity of our family. I love that we all love being together. And yes, God wants this, but anytime I make any mention, then my old camp would go, see, he doesn't care about truth anymore. It's like, no, I'm not saying that. I'm just like, we can't be absolutely sure on all of these issues. And when you see humility and, okay, I don't know what you feel about this, but. So I went to Rome a few years ago with a few other pastors, and we met with Pope Francis for a couple hours. I mean, you know, we're in the Vatican, and he starts sharing some things. And this is early on in his papacy, where he says, you know, you leaders understand what I want more than my own people do. He says, jesus Christ and His Lordship is not at the center of the Catholic Church. And I want it to be right now. The institution is at the center of the church. Jesus lordship. You understand this and you want this, and you want him to be central. And he starts going on about the concerns he has about his own. It was so endearing. And at the end, he goes, I'm not saying that we ignore our differences, but can we hold hands and walk down the road and talk about these things? And I was like, wow, I was not expecting that. There was a humility that was disarming. And some of my Catholic friends were explaining, because I'm like, okay, explain this, explain this, explain this. And they were very much like, oh, we needed a reformation. This is an embarrassing time in the history of the church. I'm like, really? Yes, absolutely. The things that Luther brought out, they needed to be changed, but to separate from the church, you know? And so I began to understand. So there's different things that happened in history, And I'm starting to understand that better. And it's confusing because in Catholicism, not only as Protestants, we disagree on interpretation of this book, but in Catholicism, you not only have to interpret this book, you have to interpret everything that's been said through church history and the catechism. And now I may read something in a catechism or a prayer or the rosary or whatever. I'm like, wait, what does that mean? And so it gets even more sticky for a Catholic, I think, because you're interpreting scripture and the catechism, and there's just so much going on. And one person may say, oh, Mary, Mother of God, and mean one thing, and someone else says, mary, Mother of God, and means something completely different because there's so many phrases out there. And then as Protestants, we just assume, oh, my gosh, that's blasphemous. It's like, well, it seemed like they were trying to differentiate between. Or they were trying to explain the deity of Christ, and that's why she really bore. But other people don't see it that way, or, I don't know. Just. There's so much confusion over these phrases. And it's like, okay, but what do we do now? Because for me, I've had to just talk to individuals and go, okay, what do you believe? Okay, you're in the Roman Catholic Church. What do you believe about salvation? What do you believe about Jesus? I was with a dear friend, and we're at a coffee shop, and I said, okay, for example, that guy's sitting over there. Go share your version of the Gospel with him. Like, what would you say? And as he went and shared everything, I'm like. I'm like, that's it? He's like, yeah, that's it. You wouldn't talk about anything. He goes, no, I'm so confused. That's exactly what I would have shared with him, you know, and so there's like, each individual is so different that, you know, I know on this show, like, you talk like the Orthodox Church or the Roman Catholic Church, but I'm going, that's the same as saying the Baptists or the Presbyterians or the Methodists or the Charismatics. It's like, I almost feel like there's no such thing anymore because no one knows what they're supposed to believe. Even things you're bringing up about. Well, no, that's what Spurgeon said. I'm like, oh, I didn't know that. You know, we don't know all the things that are. That we maybe are supposed to know about our denomination. And so I just been treating everyone as an individual and going, what do you believe? Because I want to love you and your soul, and I want to spend eternity with you, and I want to make sure you're trusting in the death of Christ and for your salvation and that you really believe that you're loved by him. Is that a. I don't know. I'm just kind of rambling.

[A]

I like it. That itself is a very Protestant way to think. Is the bottom up. I'm not looking at the overhead. What's the institutional structure that is above you? I'm looking from the bottom up, at the on the ground reality. And that leads. Let me throw this question out on the table, then I'll ramble for a minute about my thoughts about it and then see what you think about it. But the question is, you brought up a moment ago the question of what do we do now? What a great question. We inherit this sea of complexity in church history that's come to us. Here we are in 2025, and so much has happened. What does unity look like now? So how do we. So my channel name is Truth Unites. And that is. Both of those words are so important to me.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

If you have a truth, but it's not uniting, then you've got something that might be just unhealthy in the psychology. It's just tearing down. But if you've got something uniting other than the truth, then now you've also got something that's not sound. What I want to give my life to is revival in our day, a renewal of Christianity among younger people especially. And I want that to be based upon the truth, but I want it to be positive and constructive and healthy. I'm not just tearing down, you know, I want it to feel magnetic, like Jesus himself is drawn. People are getting drawn toward Jesus. Right? That's what I want to give my life to. I want just a renewal of the gospel in hearts, in the culture. And so I think about that and I say, okay, how do we do that? What does unity look like? You've got seven kids, I've got five. Mine are younger. And, you know, unity is. Is hit or miss, but so we know our Father wants unity among Christians. What does that look like? How do we give ourselves to that? I would say that one of the reasons I'm grateful to be a Protestant Christian is the vision of unity is more rooted on just the Gospel itself. So what do we do? How do we come together? It's similar to what you're saying of this bottom up. I'm starting with where is the Holy Spirit at work? Where do I see the gospel proclaimed in word and sacrament? So my vision of the church is wherever you have the true gospel of Jesus Christ proclaimed with word and sacrament. Those are my brothers and my sisters. And I actually owe, I have obligations, Christian obligations of love to them. And it doesn't matter if that particular church is often a jungle and they have no formal ties, no religion relationships, no bishop laying hands on another bishop, none of that. It's this more inclusive vision of the church. And then the center of gravity that draws people together is Jesus and his gospel. And so this is part of the concern with the non Protestant traditions is for their vision of unity. It does have this institutional element to it. It's like you gotta join us. And I think of Mark 9 where Jesus, the disciples are saying about these other exorcists, we tried to stop this guy because he wasn't of us. John says this and Jesus response is don't stop him. Whoever is not against us is for us. This is the vision of unity I have as an evangelical Protestant is I want to have an open heart to anyone and everyone, whatever institution they're in. But I'm looking is this Jesus here in word and sacrament? So I guess that is as I think about we can't solve all these problems. We can't sort of just wave a magic wand and sort of fix all the fractures in the church. Even what we're talking about at the beginning, just the level of malice and discourse, I can't solve that. All I know to do is tune out the hateful voices and just try to focus on serving people and building relationships and so forth, meeting needs. That's what I try to give my focus on each day. So this is the broad topic here is unity. What does it really mean to pursue unity? And I guess I want to just emphasize it must be a unity that is rooted in the gospel. I want to have humility along the way. I want to do what I call theological triage where we were talking about end times views. I'm pretty open handed about the details of the end times. I'm not going to locate unity and the exact understanding of the rapture. So I'm looking at like the core of our faith. But the center of gravity has got to be the gospel. And that's where as a Protestant, I would seek for unity with other Protestants and with others in other Christian traditions outside of Protestantism is say it's just that that's the magnetic point that draws us together. So you're hearing someone else, I think you mentioned a Roman Catholic sharing the gospel like that. You can just affirm that and say, yeah, that's wonderful. It's a very Protestant way to think, to say, I'm not looking at the institutional overhead. I'm looking at the organic reality being birthed by the Holy Spirit, whether it's in that other tradition, whether it's in the jungle somewhere, some tribe gets the Internet and they read the New Testament and the Holy Spirit births the church, and they're reciting the Lord's, the Apostles Creed. And this is a church. So that's my vision of unity, is it's truth that unites.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I love that it's centered around the gospel, because really, when I look at an individual, my heart just goes, okay, do you understand who you're gonna face at the end of your life? Like, this could be it. And you're gonna stand before him, this holy being? Like, do you understand at that second what you'll care about? Like, do you know, like, that this is the God that Moses says you can't look and live? Like no one just kind of casually came into his presence, and that's going to happen to you and to love them and imagine them in their. However they appear before God, whether it's, you know, just their soul or their, you know, just that moment of like, it's God and this life is over and to really care about them and go, have you trusted in really what he said to Moses? The Lord, the Lord, a God, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. Do you believe that. That God loves you like, that he loved you enough to have his son, and his son on the cross was paying for your sin? You know, like, do you believe that? And that you can be washed clean, clean, and it's not of your works, it's by grace. You've been saved through faith and that his spirit can enter into you, and then suddenly you'll actually have this desire and become a slave to righteousness. And these works will come out of your life. And do you enjoy him, like, his love? Like, that's what I'm thinking about the person. I'm going, I want you to stand before God. I want to be with you forever. And. Okay, now we can talk about these other things. But that's my heart and like to have that type of love. And I have seen some friends who are Roman Catholic share that same view. And in fact, I will say my, how Do I put this. So I was just like, I was against every charismatic, every Roman Catholic. And then I was asked to speak, like, spontaneously. You know, I was at this event and there were like, Roman Catholic gatherings, like charismatic Catholics that were gathering, and the leader comes and like, hey, I know it was last minute. We're about to have a session. Would you just come in and preach the gospel to our people? I'm like, what? I've never been asked. He's like, look, we love how you share the gospel. And there are a lot of people in the Roman Catholic church who have never really heard the gospel. Would you come in and preach the gospel the way you always preach the gospel? I was super confused. I was scared to do it because I was like, this is going to get filmed. I'm going to get destroyed. But then what do I do? They're asking me to preach the gospel. And then they're saying. Then he makes a comment, look, we actually rejoice when people leave the Roman Catholic Church because they went to an evangelical church and they heard the gospel and understood it and embraced it. I'm like, wait, what? This is super confusing. I said, okay, I'll come preach the gospel and just walk down and, you know, the guy introduces me and says, hey, my wife believes that Francis Chan is the greatest Catholic preacher on earth. Now I'm super confused. And he says, his care for the poor, his reverence for God, the things we value, and his understanding of the gospel. So I go up to speak in these. He goes first, before you speak, would you sit here? And they take my shoes off, and these priests come up and start washing my feet and praying for me. I am so confused. And then I get up and just like, look, I don't know what you guys believe, but here's what I believe. And they're amening. They're, you know, I'm like, this is one of the most confusing experiences of my life. But that's what got me studying and pursuing and talking to Roman Catholic friends and everything else. And so, again, that was a situation where the gospel in that room, you know how sometimes, whether it's a Baptist context or I may have been in every church, it feels like every single context, there are times when you just can look in people's eyes and you go, wow, they really get it. And then other times you're like, wow, I need to preach the gospel to these people. I don't think they get it. And sometimes you miss it and you go, I should have just focused on the gospel because Now I'm concerned that those guys didn't really get it. And I went off on a different topic, but that room felt very much like, wow, you love the gospel. You get the gospel. And then as I talked to some of the individuals, it was like, wow, I can't deny that you really love the gospel. And again, so then I'd ask him, well, how do you interpret this? How do you interpret this? Well, I don't see it that way. And that's where I'm like, I still don't know completely how to operate in today's world and with the theologies that people have. But I'm trying to operate in humility and I'm trying to educate myself more. Again, that's what I'm grateful for. And again, I don't know if I ever just formally thanked you for correcting me in that video because I agree with your correction. And I wanted to say that publicly because I don't hear a lot of people saying that, like, hey, thanks for correcting me. I actually did come to some of those same conclusions. And I'm still working on and still trying to understand it. But thank you for correcting me in love and treating me as a brother and not just rolling your eyes. And I go, you know, which is very easy to do. And you have a gift that I believe is so needed for the body. A gift that I don't have. I've watched some of the things you've said and I've studied it and then I can't remember it the next day. I don't believe I have a gift of teaching. I believe that I do have more of a preaching gift, like maybe a prophetic, not in a telling of the future, but a forth speaking and declaring. That doesn't excuse me from studying. And I do study. It's just I think some people are more natural or supernaturally, even spiritually gifted to teach. And I believe God's given that to you. The gift of grace. I'm hoping and praying that there will be just this slew of young people who are motivated to study the scriptures and church history deeply, but also be growing in the fruit of the Spirit at the same time and exemplifying the character and humility of Christ and the love of Christ. That's where the clanging cymbals thing comes in. It's like, oh, I can't listen to this anymore. And that's what I felt like with the Internet, but. And I know you get a ton of criticism and that's just part of being on the Internet. And I just want to be one voice that says, man, Gavin, I love you. I love what you've done. And I hope that you make many disciples of young people who study the Scriptures and study church history and yet grow in love and the fruit of the Spirit and communicate in a way that is strong but loving and not sarcastic and belittling. So just thank you.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Thank you for listening to.

[A]

The Crazy Love podcast. Join us next week for a new episode, but until then, for more resources from Crazy Love Ministries or to support the work of Crazy Love, please visit our [e-mail].