Communion, Protestantism, & the Love of God (Pt. 2) | Francis Chan & Gavin Ortlund

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary

Crazy Love Podcast: "Communion, Protestantism, & the Love of God (Pt. 2)"

Guests: Francis Chan and Gavin Ortlund
Date: December 8, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode continues the heartfelt conversation between Francis Chan and Gavin Ortlund, centering on the themes of living from a place of security in the love of God, the importance of truth and humility in theological discussions, and the practical implications for Protestant-Catholic-Orthodox dialogues. The dialogue is refreshingly candid, reflecting both men’s desire to shepherd others toward deeper joy in Christ rather than mere intellectual agreement or division.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rooting Life and Dialogue in the Love of God

• Begins with the Gospel, Not Argumentation: Both speakers stress the foundational need to personally experience and continually dwell in God’s love before entering theological debates.
  • Gavin: “Let the love of Christ land on your heart first. That's the first step… You gotta pass through from saying, ‘Jesus died for sinners,’ to being able to say … ‘Jesus died for this sinner.’” (02:23)
• Jonathan Edwards & Tasting the Honey: Gavin uses this imagery to illustrate experiential Christianity—true faith isn’t just knowing honey is sweet but tasting it personally (03:24).
• Ongoing Necessity: Francis notes, “The love of Christ and the gospel is not something that we move past as some elementary teaching … we become scholars nowadays by moving past the love of Christ and let's talk about these deep issues.” (08:34)

2. The Fear of the Lord as the Beginning

• Francis’s Perspective: Adds that modern evangelicalism often lacks “the fear of the Lord,” reminding that reverence for God’s holiness is the wellspring for enjoying his mercy and love (04:38).
  • “Every day I want to be cognizant of your holiness and your love for me. And if I recognize who you are in your holiness, and then I recognize how much you love me and your affection towards me, I can make it through anything.” (05:03)

3. The Supernatural Work of Grasping God’s Love

• Not Just Intellectual: It is a Spirit-led revelation, not the result of clever argument or emotional experience alone.
• Francis: “There was a miracle that took place. And for someone to get it where it's internal and it's not like you're just talked into it externally.” (07:07)
• Paul’s Prayers for Believers: Even faithful Christians need ongoing experience of God’s love (Ephesians 3 and 1:18 referenced, 07:33–08:34).

4. Navigating Criticism, Insecurity, and Repentance

• Francis on Criticism: Even those in ministry are assailed by doubts and need strengthening in the Lord (20:26)
  • “The enemy is relentless... Even his own people wanted to kill him ... and he strengthened himself in the Lord.” (21:05 referencing 1 Samuel 30)
• Daily Practices: Both discuss the essential practice of tuning out noise (digital or internal) and starting the day focused on Christ, drawing from passages like 1 Peter 4:7 (22:13).
  • “Too many people look at prayers as like a means to an end rather than, ‘No, this is the greatest, this is the end, I'm in the presence of God.’” (22:39)

5. The Tension of Rebuke and Encouragement

• Shepherding Online and In Person: Francis acknowledges the difficulty of providing care when we can't tailor correction or comfort to individuals (16:46).
• Gavin on Pastoring Application: “Trying to distinguish the hard-hearted and the soft-hearted … sometimes people need to be zapped with the fear of God. …” (26:52)

6. Joy, Acceptance, and Pastoring from Gospel Centrality

• Gavin on the Heart Posture:
  • “The happiest thing that anybody can ever experience … starting at this basic heart level to say, I am accepted by the God of the universe as his son, or as his daughter, as the case may be. And he looks on me with this infinite love.” (14:47)
• Self-Control and Sober-Mindedness: Both extol the need for discipline to maintain this focus (22:13–24:00).

7. Dealing with Division and Unity in the Body

• Francis’s Desire: Before getting into contentious issues of Eucharist, table fellowship, or salvation, “Let’s talk about Jesus. Let’s talk about his love. Do we agree on this?” (12:14)
• Making Sacrifice of Christ Primary: Not just for apologetics, but for relational and spiritual health (12:32).

8. Protestantism, Tradition, and Engaging with Catholics & Orthodox

• Gavin’s Approach:
  • Friendship and social cooperation are easy starting points.
  • “We can be friends, we can stand together on the definition of marriage… I’m honored. A lot of our Catholic friends have great social theology that we need to learn from.” (37:36)
• Contention for Truth without Compromise: Gavin advocates lovingly for Protestant distinctives, referencing Mark 7’s critique of added human traditions (39:18).
  • “I will try to encourage someone and exhort someone to become a Protestant. And the reason I will do that is because I think it honors truth, it honors catholicity, it honors the Gospel more.” (38:55)
• Genuine Faith Across Traditions: Gavin maintains that one can recognize sincere believers in Catholic and Orthodox traditions, rejecting a strictly institutional approach:
  • “People can be wrong without being hypocrites and hateful to you. I’ve just met too many people who seem to really know Jesus who are in these other traditions.” (42:36)
• A Protestant Stance: “I feel I’m being very Protestant to say I’m not going to look to the overarching institution that’s over your head to make an individual judgment. I’m going to look to the Gospel. Does this person walk with Jesus?” (44:31)

9. The Current Generation’s Thirst for Unity and Truth

• Francis’s Hopeful Observation: “There just seems to be this move of—we just want truth. We don’t want to be separated from each other. We don’t understand all the battles.” (51:13)
• Desire to Learn from All Traditions: Young people don’t want to fight ancient battles, but to glean what is beautiful from each tradition (52:02).

10. Evangelism and Revival

• Gavin’s Passion: Ends on evangelism—praying for non-Christians, being bold in sharing Jesus because “people are so desperate.” (53:31)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Gospel Experience:
  • "You gotta pass through from saying, ‘Jesus died for sinners,’ to being able to say with a sense of joy in your heart, ‘Jesus died for this sinner.’" – Gavin Ortlund [02:23]
• On Pastoring the Anxious:
  • “Repentance is awesome. Repentance is such a gift. Like, oh, I can get rid of that. Don’t believe the lie that, ‘Oh, I can’t get out of this sin,’ because now you’re calling God a liar.” – Francis Chan [17:30]
• On Persevering Through Criticism:
  • “I pray for you, because... it’d be so tempting to feel like you have to make a rebuttal before you have a time of enjoying him and being deep with him. And then whatever you say isn’t going to have that power... It’s like, no, but if you’re abiding in his love… then the things that you say will have this power.” – Francis Chan [25:08]
• On Protestant Identity:
  • “He [Gavin] makes me proud to be Protestant again, you know, because we can look at so much of... almost get embarrassed by things that are out there in the name of the evangelical church.” – Francis Chan [45:43]
• On Catholic and Orthodox Relations:
  • “Even while I’m saying I have these deep systemic concerns about this system... nonetheless, as a Protestant, I feel I’m being very Protestant to say... I’m going to look to the Gospel. Does this person walk with Jesus?” – Gavin Ortlund [44:31]
• On the Next Generation & Unity:
  • “… There just seems to be this move of—we just want truth. We don’t want to be separated from each other. We don’t understand all the battles.” – Francis Chan [51:13]

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 00:40–03:50 – The need for experiencing God’s love before engaging complex theology.
• 04:20–05:57 – Francis on the importance of the fear of the Lord and God’s holiness as foundational.
• 07:07–09:38 – The supernatural grasp of the gospel & the necessity of ongoing, deepening experience of God’s love.
• 12:14–13:00 – Discussion on communion, division, and focusing on the sacrifice of Christ over denominational divides.
• 14:47–16:06 – Gavin’s practical encouragement on starting daily with the love of Christ.
• 17:07–24:00 – Dealing with sin, shame, repentance, and practical spiritual focus.
• 29:47–32:36 – Francis’s practical approach to starting the day and handling criticism.
• 37:36–44:56 – Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox dialogue: truth, unity, and individual faith.
• 50:20–53:17 – Encouragement for the new generation seeking unity and truth.
• 53:31–54:24 – Final remarks: evangelism and prayer for revival.

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Tone & Language

• Candid, Pastoral, and Encouraging: Both speakers are open about their insecurities, failures, and spiritual hunger, with a notable lack of harshness or triumphalism.
• Respectful & Irenic in Theological Disagreement: Where theological critique arises, it is paired with an irenic (peace-seeking) spirit.
• Saturated with Scripture and Personal Testimony: The conversation combines biblical references with real pastoral experience and vulnerability.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a nourishing reflection for anyone grappling with anxiety, criticism, or division in the church. Francis Chan and Gavin Ortlund model how to anchor dialogue, relationships, and doctrinal differences in the inexhaustible love of God. The wisdom, humility, and joy evident in this conversation offer a powerful roadmap for both personal and communal Christian life. This conversation will especially benefit listeners who want to move beyond mere argument to a deeper experience of Christ’s love, even as they navigate the complexities of theology and church unity.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Crazy Love Podcast. Are you living and speaking from a place of security? In the Father's Love Today, Francis and Gavin Ortland continue their conversation around truth and love. They explain how basking in the love of God is what keeps us grounded through criticism, hardship and and complex problems. Francis also shares about his latest book, Beloved, and gives practical advice on how to both abide and speak the truth in love.

[B]

I've been so blessed by your ministry over the years, so even to get to sit down and talk with you feels like such an honor to me. And you know what you're saying about we're starting with the gospel, we're leading with the gospel. We're emphasizing the need to speak with love and humility. That is as important as the things we're saying. And then we're starting with the gospel. And then we don't have to know everything. I don't have to know exactly what it will look like along the way to be faithful to Christ and to seek unity, but also to contend for truth. And we can be a work in progress. We're pilgrims on the way. We're following Jesus, we're figuring it out. My job isn't to be omniscient. My job is to follow Jesus. So I'm doing my best step by step. And let's pastor people watching this, who feel, who may need this gospel focus. Here's my feeling and I see what you think. I think a lot of young men, young women as well, they're watching my videos, they're watching other things. They're in these conversations, they're searching through church history and the need of their heart is actually the love of Christ. So they're thinking, they feel this vulnerability because they realize, I'm not sure if I'm right or not. And rather than that manifesting in saying I'm not sure if I'm right or not, it manifests more in this sort of very combative style of engaging in theology and engaging in church history and what I would want to shepherd them towards, and I think you're the same way, is start with the gospel. Let the love of Christ land on your heart first. That's the first step. And then everything else is all these other questions are so important as well. But you've got to start there. So I would want to say to somebody, first of all, you need to understand you are loved by God. God loves you personally. And it really. And it actually would take the Holy Spirit opening your eyes to this. But it really is true that Jesus death was for you. He loves you. It will forgive your sins. You gotta pass through from saying, jesus died for sinners to being able to say with a sense of joy in your heart, jesus died for this sinner. Right. Jonathan Edwards used to talk about tasting the honey. You can't just talk about how honey tastes good. You gotta be able to taste it. And so I wanna encourage a viewer who is racked with anxiety, uncertainty, foreboding. They feel like Martin Luther used to feel before the gospel landed on his heart. God feels distant and wrathful. There's storm clouds between me and go. Want to shepherd them to say, to get to a point where they are able to embrace with joy in their heart. It really is just this simple. Jesus died for me. That makes me okay. My sins are forgiven as I trust in Jesus. The love of God is for me. Almost to the point maybe they could even in their heart, maybe they could even say, if God loves anybody, he loves me. Like, if they could feel that real in their heart, you know? And so I'm wanting to shepherd someone to a personal appropriation of the gospel, to their real needs, their real experiences, day by day, moment by moment, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Now, we can't manufacture that, but we can speak about that and encourage people toward that. So what can you say to help a person out there who maybe is even realizing I need to start right there at my own relationship with Christ?

[A]

Yes, yes. I mean, I agree with everything you said. I would go back even one step, though. And for me, just because of where people are at today, I would start with the fear of the Lord.

And because people have such a low view of God that. And I think they've heard from the evangelical church anyways, God loves you. Maybe not as deeply as they should, but I think there's a lot of people who don't have a fear of the Lord, even the holy God. And that, that's the beginning. That's the wellspring of life that leads to the friendship to the Lord. The mercy of the Lord is for those who fear him. And so just to help them understand, that's why the way I understand scripture is terrifying. But, you know, this is also amazing that he tells Moses, like, he loves to show mercy, like, understand what this holy God is. Because I've told the Lord, I go, God, I just. Every day I want to be cognizant of your holiness and your love for me. And if I recognize who you are in your holiness, and then I recognize how much you love me and your Affection towards me. I can make it through anything, but I'll get distracted by other things.

And so I just wanted to add that one thing. But when I read the Scriptures, like you said, you explain it. You share your own personal testimony of it, the Scriptures. But then there's something that you see the Apostle Paul just praying for.

There's this supernatural element that.

I mean, when I heard the gospel.

I feel like I really understood the gospel in high school.

It wasn't because there was an awesome speaker. He was fine. He just explained the cross. I'm like, oh, wow, okay, that's it.

And something happened to me.

And the proof is, 45 years later, I'm still.

Here. I love him even more. My understanding, I think, is more complete.

But there was a miracle that took place. And for someone to get it where it's internal and it's not like you're just talked into it externally.

That's where I think, even after we become believers, for us to embrace the love of Christ.

It'S a supernatural act. That's why Paul is praying for the Ephesians. Paul is praying for people who he says are faithful in Christ Jesus. But he says, I'm praying that I'm on my knees praying for you. I pray for you regularly according to the glory of God, you know, the riches of his glory. I just want him to grant this to you. Wait, to believers? Yeah. I want Christ to dwell in your hearts through faith. And I look at them like, you don't pray that for believers. I want you to know the love of Christ. That's beyond comprehension. And you don't pray that for believers. I want you to know how wide and long and high and deep. Like, it was peculiar to me that he's writing to the church people he's already said are faithful. He goes, but I'm praying, and I'm praying that the. The eyes of your heart would be enlightened. Like, there's. To me, it was showing that the love of Christ and the gospel is not something that we move past as some elementary teaching. And this is where I got in trouble. I stopped focusing on the cross. My education didn't even really talk about the love of Christ because I was assumed rather than something you keep growing in. And so we become scholars nowadays by moving past the love of Christ and let's talk about these deep issues. And then people like me start feeling like, oh, gosh, I don't know enough about this and this and this and this. I better study all these things to the exclusion of growing in the love of Christ and meditating on how much. I want to know how wide, long, I want to know how high, how deep. Like, I can't exhaust this.

And I think that's what leads to a very divisive spirit, is we're not rallying around. We didn't all wake up with this. Wow.

Right now he's looking at his sons.

As perfectly pure.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Why? It's so Gavin and I. I mean, Isaiah is saying, like, the things that have come out of my mouth, like these unclean lips. I mean, we talk a lot for a living. So we've said things that are wrong. We've said things that were unloving. We were that noisy Kong and clanging cymbal. I led people, I think some statements I've made that have led him away from his love and maybe caused more insecurity in them. And, ah, God, all these things I've done and said, thoughts that have gone through my mind. And yet.

We'Re your perfectly pure children because of the cross, and you love us right now. Oh, gosh, like, do people ever get to that point? Do they get to that point daily, like, because of the cross? And we have to keep growing in that enjoyment. And even as we have these discussions about theology with people that disagree with us, can we have these moments of agreeing on the love of Christ and enjoying his presence and. And just deepening our enjoyment of his love together before we talk about some of these other issues?

And that's what I'm trying to pursue with some of my friends that I may disagree with on their understanding of the Eucharist.

And on their exclusion of me from the table. And they're even questioning of my salvation for not being in the one true church, whether that's a certain branch of orthodoxy or a certain, you know, part of the Roman Catholic Church. Before that, let's talk about Jesus. Let's talk about his love. Do we agree on this? Do you agree? You know, and.

I'm just starting to have more moments like that and pursuing more moments of that and not. Not just because I want to win them over or something like that. But I really believe that God wants me to remember.

The sacrifice of Christ and what he did on that cross and make that primary in my discussions.

With everyone.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It brings up your book, which I want to hold up so people can see it, Beloved, which you wrote with your daughter, which is so cool. I mean, I'm looking at my daughters who are very young, and I'm thinking, what if one day I could write a book with one of my kids or something like that. I've been looking through this and finding it so refreshing and encouraging. And if people could take one thing from this discussion, this might be a good nugget and maybe we can just camp out on this. In the last few questions, I want to throw you right here toward the end. Here is just saturating your heart in the love of Christ every day as the first priority. And then suppose you're going into a theological disagreement, okay, you still contend for what you believe is true. You don't stop advocating for truth. You don't just compromise and become squishy and so forth. But it will be flavored differently. The way you will talk will be different. Or when you're facing insecurities in your own heart. I mean, all of us are so insecure. I think if you. Because I know this in my mind, I've preached on this, you know, this idea that we need to always start. We never outgrow the gospel every day we need to start there. But I drift from it constantly. This week I mentioned. So I'll just, you know, vulnerable here. Just this week it's been when I face cynicism in my own heart or I feel the sense of darkness at just how nasty human nature can be. And I feel I have to go to Christ and I have to basically say, you know, I cannot solve this problem, Lord, I'm coming to you. And it's just, I don't want to ramble here. So I'll just say the main thing on my heart right now is what you're talking about in this wonderful book which just came out as of us recording this. And what you were mentioning a few moments ago is the happiest thing that anybody can ever experience. And starting at this basic heart level to say, I am accepted by the God of the universe as his son, or as his daughter, as the case may be. And he looks on me with this infinite love. And I even to make it personal, we can go to each member of the Godhead. So I'm going to talk about Jesus for a second and say, jesus.

Intercedes for me before the Father. My name is on his lips. To the Father, when he intercedes for.

[A]

Me.

[B]

His forgiveness is fresh and real each morning. And just starting your day from that, there's really no depth to the joy that that brings to my heart. As I was thinking about this, I texted you and said, I smile when I think about this. It's just, it's so wonderful to think. And I just think with all the toxicity in the world right now, we can encourage our viewers to withdraw from the noise of Internet, which I often experience is almost the opposite of the love of God. It's so cutthroat, you know, and just spend time with the Lord receiving his love for you. And then if you're called to spend any time on the Internet, go into it from that heart posture.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

But boy, if we're not so careful to guard our hearts, we're going to become just part of the noise ourselves. And it's so easy to drift into that. How would you pastor someone? Someone's watching this video and they're saying they struggle with an addiction, they struggle with a sin pattern. And so they feel like they're unworthy of the love of God. They're watching this saying, well, you know, Francis or Gavin might feel loved by God, but I don't feel that way. And I don't think I could because of the dirtiness and the shame that covers me. How would you pastor them and encourage them to set their hope upon Christ?

[A]

Yeah, it's very hard as you know, as a pastor. Like in Thessalonians it mentions that we're to rebuke the unruly and encourage the faint hearted. So it's hard online or even in preaching to do that because you end up encouraging the unruly.

And it's like, whoops, I didn't mean to do that. Or you rebuke the faint hearted. It's like, oh, no, I didn't mean that for you. I was thinking about this guy, you know, when I was saying that statement. And so to just throw something out there like, hey, everyone that's feeling that. No, God, no. Well.

Some of you, God is. You're feeling that conviction from the Holy Spirit and praise God for that, that there is a sin in your life that's causing you to go, I don't feel good, I don't feel right. Last thing I to do is negate and lessen what the Holy Spirit is doing. The Bible says he makes you a slave to righteousness. You were a slave to sin. You used to be able to do these things and enjoy. But now it's like, oh, I'm getting torn apart from the inside. I don't want to diminish that. That could be God, a blessing from the Lord. So you'll walk away from this sin. So seek the Lord on that, because repentance is awesome. Repentance is such a gift. Like, oh, I can get Rid of that to believe that. Don't believe the lie that, oh, I can't get out of this sin because now you're calling God a liar. He says, no, no temptation has overcome you except that which is common to man. And God is faithful. He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can handle. But with that temptation, he'll always give you a way of escape so you can come out from under. So I would say don't believe in the lies. You have so much power. If you have trusted in Christ, if the Spirit is in you, you can overcome this. So don't fall for that. And that's where, ah, that releasing that life comes from repentance. But then there's others who are struggling and are fighting and are in that process of sanctification. And that's where I'd have to listen. Or not just listen, but know a person to shepherd them well and go, look, the enemy is always like whispering things to me.

Francis, you're not as intelligent as Gavin. You can't retain all these things. If you had studied harder after seminary and not gotten so involved in these other things, you know, then you'd have a bigger impact. And I'm so disappointed in you. And you're not like this person. You're not like that person. And, oh, gosh, you know, and is he really even the Lord of your life? Because if he was Lord of every area, would you ever even lust again? And would you?

And what about the pride? Have you enjoyed them bringing up your name like this in a positive way? And. And when people bash you or whatever, you get so offended. And that's not for my glory, that's your own. Yes, you're right, Lord. And so are you even a believer.

The enemy is relentless. And so one thing I would say to people is.

I think about 1 Samuel 30, when everything is against David, he gets back to Ziklag, his wife's kids are taken away, his city is burned down, and now all his people want to kill him and it's your fault. And as he's grieving, it says, david strengthened himself in the Lord. And I thought, whoa, he had no one.

Even his own army.

Wanted to kill him. And he strengthened himself in the Lord. What was that? He was all by himself. And that's what I would say to people is.

I think of 1 Peter 4:7, the end of all things is at hand. Therefore, be self controlled and sober minded for the sake of your prayers. Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins. But I think the end of all things is at hand. And therefore be self controlled and sober minded for the sake of your prayers. Like for all those that I think there are very, very few people who are sober minded and self controlled. You wake up and your natural inclination is to go to your phone because you have no self control.

Even though you know that, gosh, the most important thing I could do.

Is come before the God who is keeping me alive. I woke up because he gave me that breath and I'm not going to look at anything or think anything until I just come into his presence.

And I understand that's a luxury sometimes for those who don't have an infant.

Or whatever that's like, what do I do? I was awakened by my infant. Okay, well maybe you hold the baby and you still together like God. I want to be like this baby in your arms. Like the only thing that can comfort me is you. Like God's going to make a way for that. But you've got to be self controlled and sober minded so that you can, he says, because the end of all things is at hand. So the most important thing is that I'm able to pray because for the sake of your prayers. And too many people look at prayers as like a means to an end rather than know, this is the greatest, this is the end, I'm in the presence of God. This is the one thing David prays for. It's like, this is the one thing I ask. I just want to dwell, I just want to dwell in your courts. I want to gaze upon your beauty. But that takes self control and sober mindedness which so few people have the ability to focus. But God's not going to put us in a position where, oh, I can't do that. My mind's cluttered.

I have this attention deficiency. Who doesn't?

When I was younger, it was weird, the kid that couldn't pay attention. But now it's like, whoa, that kid paid attention for 10 minutes straight. It's just what the enemy is doing to keep us from these sweet times. So we can't strengthen ourselves in the Lord and we can't just enjoy his love. And we can't come into the day with this focus and this peace and this security of I know you're holy, I know you love me. I so enjoy you right now. This is what I prayed for you last night. Thank you. I was like, God, help Gavin. I can't imagine. And I don't go online and look at all the things people say. I just imagine because I don't even look at the things that they say about me. I just end up hearing it. Because friends will say, oh, I can't believe what they said about you. Just don't even tell me. I get those comments, too.

[B]

I'm so sorry for what everybody's saying. I'm like, oh, great, what are they saying?

[A]

All right, what did they say?

But I pray for you, because I'm like.

It'D be so tempting to feel like you have to make a rebuttal before you have a time of enjoying him and being deep with him. And then whatever you say isn't going to have that power.

[B]

Right, exactly.

[A]

Because you haven't been in the presence of the Lord. It's not going to bear fruit because you're not abiding in his love. It's like, no, but if you're abiding in his love, then the things that you say will have this power. If you know that you're loved by him and you're living in it and you're speaking out of that, that's what's going to impact people.

[B]

I know I am nothing without that. I mean, if there's one way you can pray for me, everyone watching this video can pray for me. Just pray this one thing, and that is that I would just keep my heart focus on Christ.

And then everything else would flow out of that. So that's the first thing. And it's so easy to say that, but on a random Tuesday or a random Thursday or whenever, all of a sudden I'm driving or I'm going through my day, and it's like, you just notice, oh, I haven't thought about Christ. I'm not living out of the fullness of his love. I'm not keeping in step with the Spirit. And I don't know if. I mean, I'm guessing people watching this can relate to that. I mean, if we were to pull 100 Christians, including pastors, and godly people who've been walking with the Lord for decades, and we were to ask them. And this is related to the theme of your book, you know, how do you think God really feels about you?

I think a lot of us, the natural default, apart from keeping in step with the Holy Spirit, is you fall into this mentality of, there's storm clouds between me and God. His patience is wearing thin. And I know. I love what you're saying. If we want to pastor people differently. When I'm preaching, it's almost uncanny how in each sermon, in the application point, I'll Say now, if you're here this morning and you're feeling, then what I would say to you is, but if you're feeling this, and I'm trying to distinguish the hard hearted and the soft hearted, sometimes people need to be zapped with the fear of God. I mean, honestly, I appreciate this more actually now than five years ago. Just seeing how there are people who are so hardened to say it's tough, so blinded in their sin, and they need a confrontation and that's real.

And then there's those who are struggling. They need encouragement, but they also need discipline like you're saying they need.

They need motivation to become sober minded like First Peter says, and to start off their day. And they need maybe some rebuke and some exhortation to.

Not be distracted. But ultimately for so many of us who do, and I love how this is more of an emphasis in this book and in your ministry now is to bask in the love of God. You know, ultimately with the discipline, with the rebuke. Where I want to help someone end up is if they have a soft heart before God, if there's repentance and faith in their heart, I want them to ultimately get to this place. And I don't mean to talk too much. The metaphor that comes into my mind is this is what I experience it like I'm having a tough week, whatever. You know, you fall into the default grind of life in a fallen world and then you go back into what you're talking about in this book and it's like you're in your office and it's stressful and it's noisy and you're working and your boss is getting after you. And then you go on your lunch break and you go into like a garden and it's peaceful and it's quiet and you set your heart at rest. What I want to encourage people towards is that's what the love of Christ feels like. And I think it's okay to talk about the emotions of it. Thing could be more sweet and nourishing and.

You know, it makes you feel sane again. Where the world makes you crazy and gaslights you, you come in the presence of Jesus and it's like, okay, it just sets the world okay again. What does it feel like for you?

[A]

What does it look like?

[B]

I mean, how do you start your day when you need to attune your heart to the love of Christ practically? What do you.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it is silence.

And I don't even mean like I could be at McDonald's and have silence with the Lord. I mean, I don't go to McDonald's often. You know, it's just like there could be things going on, and I can just tune it out.

I don't even have to close my eyes. I can just kind of blur out everything and just.

Remind myself of truths, of Scripture, of who God is, and ask the Holy Spirit to even bring scriptures to mind. But I have to tune the other things out. I have to be alone with the Lord. It has to be this quietness, at least in my mind.

And I just. Just.

Picture him on his throne.

Picture all the saints, the angels, seraphim, these creatures just praising Him. Him sitting in perfect peace and saying, I can have that peace. And then, you know, suddenly things that were bothering me. It's like the Psalmist in 73 when I tried to understand all this. It was oppressive to me until I entered the sanctuary of God.

And then I understood. And there is something about, like, really seeing yourself in the throne room and knowing you come before this throne of grace with confidence, that it's a throne of grace, which I didn't even notice till a few years ago because I was like, I don't know, the enemy just blocking my mind. But it's a throne of grace, and I can receive grace and mercy. For example, with you, it'd be very easy for you to wake up with all these voices of saying different things about you where you're like, that's not what I said. You know, that's not what I said. You know.

Rather than looking at the throne and God's not worried about it.

I heard my good friend David Platt, when I asked him, how do you deal with the criticism? He's like, I just think God could have prevented them from saying those things. But he didn't. So there's something in it for me.

And that's what I've learned to do, is just go, okay, that's a good point. Hey, God, do I care too much about my reputation? Is that why you brought this? Am I really defending you or myself right here? Let me grow from this and just look at it as sovereign God. You have this person say this about me. Let me just.

Think about it. In your presence, what do you think about what he said?

Am I a heretic?

You know? You know, like, you love me, don't you? You know, like, it's just. It's more just like this. It's like, oh, I'm good, I'm good. And we can look at all the division and the posturing of People and go, this is never going to happen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then you come in the presence of God.

Oh, Jesus, you prayed this. You prayed for this. You want this, God, you want this more than I do. And you're capable of bringing unity to the church. And so, God, it may happen after I'm gone. Yeah. And you're just going to have me say some things that may spark a few people. Help me not just get consumed with the people who hate what I have to say. Otherwise, what would Jeremiah and Ezekiel and Isaiah, you know, they knew people weren't going to listen, but they still needed to say it. And the joy is from saying what you want me to say. I just want to know that you're pleased. God.

I don't want to lose my boldness. I don't want to stop saying what you call me to say. And I don't want to stop loving these people who are cursing me. I don't want to stop blessing them and asking for you to bless their lives. God, don't let me lose this. Don't let me get cynical. Don't let me become a noisy gong or clanging cymbal. And if it really is like the chief aim of my life is to glorify you and to enjoy you, don't let me lose the enjoyment of you. Today.

I'm a light to the world, and the light is because I know I have a God who loves me, and I enjoy walking in that love. And that is more than enough to get me through this day, Lord.

So I just pray that for you. Thank you. Because it's a battle. It's a battle for me. The enemy is going to be relentless, and he'll use people that are believers.

And have them.

Act in such a way that even if they are speaking truth.

It'S abrasive and it's.

Sarcastic and it's belittling. Our words have power to build up.

That's why he says, I don't want any unwholesome speech coming out of your mouth, only that which builds up and gives grace to those who listen. I mean, these words are powerful.

And.

I just pray the Spirit gives you just words that are strong enough. Because, you know, there's times when we don't speak up out of fear or like, maybe we're too nice at times.

And then other times when we're just too harsh, and that's not the way Christ would have said it. And so, Holy Spirit, help us. You're our only hope. I seriously want to know, like, I have friends that I Love that I believe are.

Believers, I mean like that are Roman Catholic or in the Orthodox Church.

As I get together with them.

Like what, what are the things you feel like I do need to address?

Like let's say someone that I believe agrees with us on the gospel.

But there's other issues. And what would you. Because I know you like to, you know, do the triage thing and I, you know, so what would I, what would be the first thing for the Orthodox or the Roman Catholic that you'd go, okay, if you agree on this, here's what I think is that first thing you would.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Oh Lord, help me think this through with wisdom with you here to try to help people watching this too. Because this is a very practical question. I mean, okay, so first of all, I think in line with everything we're saying thus far, we start with a disposition of love in our hearts for this person. So they know I'm not here against you personally. I want heaven for I want the best for you and they know that. And I think friendship and co belligerency on social causes. So those are no brainers for me. We can be friends, we can stand together on the definition of marriage as I just did with Catholic Orthodox friends. We're going to say marriage is a sacred gift from God. It's at the foundation of what society is. We want to stand together for the that I'm honored. I mean a lot of our Catholic friends have great social theology that we need to learn from. They've thought some of these issues through, whether it's what it means to be pro life, which I am. And I want to stand with them and learn from them about how to think that through. And there's other social issues like that. Those are definite no brainers. Then you go forward now. I take the view, I'm trying to find this balance of truth unites, right?

[A]

Yes, yes, yes truth, no compromise.

[B]

Right. But also I talk about the word irenic which means aiming for peace in personal relationship. And that's just where my convictions lead me. So what that means is though I do want to contend for Protestantism for the goodness of the Reformation. I want to be not shy like you mentioned a moment ago, how we can sin by not being bold enough or by being too harsh. We need to know our temptation and our personality. Yeah, I've learned to kind of lean forward a little more and just be a little more blunt at times. I'm not, you know, sometimes I'm over worried about stepping on someone's toes. So I just, you know, here's why I'm a Protestant, here's why I believe. Now I will say that to people because. And I will try to encourage someone and exhort someone to become a Protestant. And the reason I will do that is because I think it honors truth, it honors catholicity, it honors the Gospel more. So I go to Mark 7 now. Jesus is talking to the Pharisees. The Pharisees are. They've added on. I'm not drawing a direct correlation right now between the Pharisees and any one group, but just to this extent they added on human traditions to the word of God. And Jesus is very blunt with them for that. You know, there's the hand washing rituals, but in Mark 7:13, he says many such things you do. So they have a tendency, and this is what they claim. They said we have an oral law for Moses, so there's the written law, they agree on that. But then they say we have an oral law. And so what they were doing is adding on and acting as though these other traditions were divine when they were in fact human. And so Jesus opposition to that is to say you're nullifying the word of God. And this would be in the ballpark of how I would lovingly reason with my non Protestant Christian friend is to say you're a part of a system that makes authoritative claims that amount to saying X, Y and Z are divine and obligatory on all Christians, whether it be certain beliefs about Mary, the mother of Jesus. So we want to speak with honor about Mary as a great woman of God. But in these other traditions it is an obligatory dogma that she was bodily assumed to heaven.

From my vantage point, I would say you're actually adding on to Christianity because this is not just a pious option that you may but believe this is obligatory. And I'm saying that feels like Mark 7. And so because of those concerns, the adding on, and then also because of the concerns we talked about earlier about the exclusivity, I feel the difference we have with these traditions is much more significant than like a Baptist and a Presbyterian talking, because they agree on the standards, on how we resolve, but we just disagree on how we interpret Scripture. But in the like say Protestant to Catholic or Protestant to Orthodox conversation, the disagreements are more systemic. They go down to even just how do we even tell what is Christianity? What do you have to believe if you're a Christian? What is the content of this religion? And I mentioned the bodily assumption of Mary. But there's lots of things that we would have the Concern. Now suppose you're having a conversation with someone and they say to me, now then I hear you, I listen to you, I disagree. Here's my reasons for disagreeing. Now what do we do? Now? I don't feel, and this is where I get into trouble from some other Protestants, I don't feel that I am unable to recognize genuine believers who take that view, who disagree with me. And I just have a high view for the possibility of sincere error. People can be wrong without being hypocrites and hateful to you. I've just met too many people who seem to really know Jesus who are in these other traditions. And so even so, it's very nuanced because even while I'm saying I have these deep systemic concerns about this system, they're submitting to and supporting its exclusivity and its additions, nonetheless, as a Protestant, I feel I'm being very Protestant to say I'm not going to look to the overarching institution that's over your head to make an individual judgment. I'm going to look to the Gospel. Does this person walk with Jesus? Have they repented of their sins, put their faith in Jesus? And the position of the reformers was there's enough of the truth in Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy that there's genuine believers and genuine churches, parishes in these traditions. And so I'm going back to Luther and Calvin and I'm finding these statements. And that's why I feel like I'm not just being squishy here, I'm just trying to actually honor the truth and be consistently Protestant. And that's true for Richard Hooker and Charles Hodge and many other very kind of conservative Protestant stalwarts. And yet they were able to say, you know, there's Christians over in that tradition so you can relate to them with Christian love. Even while I'm still contending for the truth and laying out my concerns, this is the approach that I take. You know, I'm going to contend for what I believe is true. I'm going to advocate for Protestantism, but at the same time I'm going to try to have open eyes.

To recognize Christian reality wherever it may be seen. And I actually feel I'm being very Protestant in taking that more organic, bottom up view of where you see Christianity. You know, I'm not saying, well, this is the overhead institutionally, therefore I'm putting them in a bucket. I'm saying, are you actually mystically united to Christ? And I'm starting from that point.

[A]

Wow, that's good. No, thank You.

[B]

So I'm curious how you think about that and what else you ought to think through.

[A]

Oh, no, I love it. I love that that's a gift that God's given you. You can.

You know, I just kind of talk and hope it gets out at some point.

You're precise, and you've really thought these things through more deeply than I have. And you're engaging in these conversations a lot more than I am. So now I just appreciate that. I don't really have a way. I just keep talking and see what happens. That's why I wanted to know. That's why I wanted to hear from you. And I want to thank you, too. I've had friends that.

Just kind of take a deep breath and go, thank you, Gavin. He makes me proud to be Protestant again, you know, because we can look at so much of Almost get embarrassed by things that are out there in the name of the evangelical church.

And that's where some of my Roman Catholic friends have brought up. It's like, they just point out, like, what do you guys even believe anymore? You got such a wide range. You know, what do you believe on the LGBT community? And, like, well, it depends on what pastor you go to. And they're just like, see, every pastor's his own Pope. Then you guys get mad that we have a Pope. No, I get it. I get it. You know, like, they do have some points of just. Your theology is all over the place. You don't even have one. At least we have one. We have this common ground, and you start going, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then you bring up some things and you remind us of.

The way that the church is supposed to be and can still be. And it's like, okay, let me keep fighting. Let me keep. Keep believing. And we keep loving and moving forward. So thank you.

[B]

Thank you for the kind words. And, yeah, I hope my ministry doesn't just defend Protestantism. I hope it encourages, especially us evangelicals to go back to their Protestant roots and, for example, be more confessional. So it's not just your pastor's the Pope. No, it's like, we've got confessional standards.

[A]

That's always been a Protestant thing.

[B]

And a lot of these criticisms are on the mark to help.

Surface level US Evangelicalism kind of see because it's so big and see where it's fallen into trouble. But then there's always need for reform. This is the great thing about Protestantism is always reforming. We just constantly go back to the Scriptures, go back to Christ. But I want to thank you for your hard.

You're an encouragement. Every time I talk with you, I feel like I've been drawn closer to Christ. I feel like I have more of a sense, not in a shallow way or a sentimental way, but more of a sense of the love of Christ, the kindness of Christ. And I know your book will help people, especially those you know. I have a heart for young men who just feel lost in the world right now. I know this book will help shepherd them to what I think is the solid rock that they can place their life on, that they're searching for substance, they're searching for truth. And it will help shepherd them to Jesus and his gospel and his love, which is that solid rock. And this is the last thing I'll say and then let you have any signing off thoughts is, you know, earlier we were talking about criticism and the craziness of the world and the state of the church, and it's just great to come back to this comfort. You know, if I was not a Christian, I don't know exactly how I'd make it through this life in this world. But amazing thought that we've got a hope and a comfort that applies no matter what. So that if the dynamics we talked about earlier just go 10 times worse and, you know, and we both get totally canceled and everything from a worldly standpoint just goes awry. It's like, man, the hope we have in the gospel isn't affected by that. I'm still going to stand before Christ one day and I'm going to stand on the basis of his blood and righteousness. And therefore I'm going to be acceptable to the Father. I'm going to heaven and the things I can control. It's just so freeing. You just let go of everything I can't control. And then I take the things I can control, which is to try to follow Jesus, love my family, tune out the hate, and then meet needs. That's kind of my marching orders right now in this season of my life. It's like, well, I can control that. So I do that. And it's freeing, but it's just nice to have a hope that is operative no matter what is going on around us. So I feel my heart refreshed in that hope by just getting a chance to talk with you. And it's an encouragement.

What final counsel or encouragement can you give to those who are watching?

[A]

I think the encouragement is that.

I really believe the Lord is stirring in this younger generation and we're seeing beautiful things happen all around the world. With thousands and thousands of young people in all of these different countries that are seeking the Scriptures and seeking the Lord in a way that all these people in these places are saying, we haven't seen this in our whole lifetimes. And, you know, I have no context. I didn't live there, but they're just saying this. And the thing with this generation, we've talked a lot about, you know, the Orthodox Church, Roman Catholic Church, Protestant church. Like, there just seems to be this move of we just want truth.

We don't want to be separated from each other. We don't understand all the battles.

Like, there's this. Like, when I was in the inner city of San Francisco, there were all these gangs and the parents were almost like, man, these kids are shooting at each other. And they don't even know what the cause of our first fight was.

But they were just brought up in our hatred. And.

I don't know, I think sometimes there just seems like there's a generation that's like, I don't understand why we have to be separate. Why even Francis and Gavin are talking about the Protestants and the Orthodox and the Roman. There's something in them that's like, I want us to. I want to learn from the traditions. There's such beautiful things in some of these traditions, and they have upheld these things. Why can't we do that and do that? And, you know, like a friend the other day who's a known, you know, leader, he's like, gosh, I just love the reverence of the Mass. And why can't we do that and then hear from like a biblical expositor, you know, and, you know, he's a Roman Catholic guy. He's like, I love that Bible teaching, but I love the Mass. And there just seems like this heart of. Is it happening? You know, yes, there are voices that are going even more extreme, but in the midst of that, it seems like there is. Is this uniting and a desire for truth. And so we just humbly keep loving and studying and getting on our faces, contending for this unity that God created us for.

So those are my last thoughts.

[B]

I love it. And praying for the non Christians who are peeking over the fence kind of saying maybe they're still something to Christianity right now. That's where my heart has really tilted is just evangelism.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I mean, just bold, blunt talk about Jesus. Just share the gospel all the time. I was at the airport, flying back from the conference. I mentioned this lady next to me starts talking about the book I'm reading, and I just it's like I don't even hesitate anymore just right in just talk about Jesus because people are so desperate and so I'm just agreeing with you and saying, you know part of that restlessness and struggle occurring is a pray for revival. Pray for many people amidst the craziness just seeping in to Christianity, finding forgiveness and relief and freedom in relationship with Christ. So we'll pray for those things. I'm going to put a link to your book in the video description for people watching this and I hope this is the first of many conversations I hope we can keep. I've enjoyed it so love you. Thank you so much my friend.

[A]

Thanks Kevin.

Thanks for listening to the Crazy Love podcast. We hope this conversation sparks a desire in you to grow closer to the Father's heart. If you want to dive deeper, check out Francis new book Beloved. It's available now wherever books are sold and to learn more you can visit our [e-mail] Beloved.