Podcast Episode Summary

Crazy Love Podcast: "Communion, Protestantism, & the Love of God (Pt. 2)"

Guests: Francis Chan and Gavin Ortlund
Date: December 8, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode continues the heartfelt conversation between Francis Chan and Gavin Ortlund, centering on the themes of living from a place of security in the love of God, the importance of truth and humility in theological discussions, and the practical implications for Protestant-Catholic-Orthodox dialogues. The dialogue is refreshingly candid, reflecting both men’s desire to shepherd others toward deeper joy in Christ rather than mere intellectual agreement or division.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rooting Life and Dialogue in the Love of God

• Begins with the Gospel, Not Argumentation: Both speakers stress the foundational need to personally experience and continually dwell in God’s love before entering theological debates.
  • Gavin: “Let the love of Christ land on your heart first. That's the first step… You gotta pass through from saying, ‘Jesus died for sinners,’ to being able to say … ‘Jesus died for this sinner.’” (02:23)
• Jonathan Edwards & Tasting the Honey: Gavin uses this imagery to illustrate experiential Christianity—true faith isn’t just knowing honey is sweet but tasting it personally (03:24).
• Ongoing Necessity: Francis notes, “The love of Christ and the gospel is not something that we move past as some elementary teaching … we become scholars nowadays by moving past the love of Christ and let's talk about these deep issues.” (08:34)

2. The Fear of the Lord as the Beginning

• Francis’s Perspective: Adds that modern evangelicalism often lacks “the fear of the Lord,” reminding that reverence for God’s holiness is the wellspring for enjoying his mercy and love (04:38).
  • “Every day I want to be cognizant of your holiness and your love for me. And if I recognize who you are in your holiness, and then I recognize how much you love me and your affection towards me, I can make it through anything.” (05:03)

3. The Supernatural Work of Grasping God’s Love

• Not Just Intellectual: It is a Spirit-led revelation, not the result of clever argument or emotional experience alone.
• Francis: “There was a miracle that took place. And for someone to get it where it's internal and it's not like you're just talked into it externally.” (07:07)
• Paul’s Prayers for Believers: Even faithful Christians need ongoing experience of God’s love (Ephesians 3 and 1:18 referenced, 07:33–08:34).

4. Navigating Criticism, Insecurity, and Repentance

• Francis on Criticism: Even those in ministry are assailed by doubts and need strengthening in the Lord (20:26)
  • “The enemy is relentless... Even his own people wanted to kill him ... and he strengthened himself in the Lord.” (21:05 referencing 1 Samuel 30)
• Daily Practices: Both discuss the essential practice of tuning out noise (digital or internal) and starting the day focused on Christ, drawing from passages like 1 Peter 4:7 (22:13).
  • “Too many people look at prayers as like a means to an end rather than, ‘No, this is the greatest, this is the end, I'm in the presence of God.’” (22:39)

5. The Tension of Rebuke and Encouragement

• Shepherding Online and In Person: Francis acknowledges the difficulty of providing care when we can't tailor correction or comfort to individuals (16:46).
• Gavin on Pastoring Application: “Trying to distinguish the hard-hearted and the soft-hearted … sometimes people need to be zapped with the fear of God. …” (26:52)

6. Joy, Acceptance, and Pastoring from Gospel Centrality

• Gavin on the Heart Posture:
  • “The happiest thing that anybody can ever experience … starting at this basic heart level to say, I am accepted by the God of the universe as his son, or as his daughter, as the case may be. And he looks on me with this infinite love.” (14:47)
• Self-Control and Sober-Mindedness: Both extol the need for discipline to maintain this focus (22:13–24:00).

7. Dealing with Division and Unity in the Body

• Francis’s Desire: Before getting into contentious issues of Eucharist, table fellowship, or salvation, “Let’s talk about Jesus. Let’s talk about his love. Do we agree on this?” (12:14)
• Making Sacrifice of Christ Primary: Not just for apologetics, but for relational and spiritual health (12:32).

8. Protestantism, Tradition, and Engaging with Catholics & Orthodox

• Gavin’s Approach:
  • Friendship and social cooperation are easy starting points.
  • “We can be friends, we can stand together on the definition of marriage… I’m honored. A lot of our Catholic friends have great social theology that we need to learn from.” (37:36)
• Contention for Truth without Compromise: Gavin advocates lovingly for Protestant distinctives, referencing Mark 7’s critique of added human traditions (39:18).
  • “I will try to encourage someone and exhort someone to become a Protestant. And the reason I will do that is because I think it honors truth, it honors catholicity, it honors the Gospel more.” (38:55)
• Genuine Faith Across Traditions: Gavin maintains that one can recognize sincere believers in Catholic and Orthodox traditions, rejecting a strictly institutional approach:
  • “People can be wrong without being hypocrites and hateful to you. I’ve just met too many people who seem to really know Jesus who are in these other traditions.” (42:36)
• A Protestant Stance: “I feel I’m being very Protestant to say I’m not going to look to the overarching institution that’s over your head to make an individual judgment. I’m going to look to the Gospel. Does this person walk with Jesus?” (44:31)

9. The Current Generation’s Thirst for Unity and Truth

• Francis’s Hopeful Observation: “There just seems to be this move of—we just want truth. We don’t want to be separated from each other. We don’t understand all the battles.” (51:13)
• Desire to Learn from All Traditions: Young people don’t want to fight ancient battles, but to glean what is beautiful from each tradition (52:02).

10. Evangelism and Revival

• Gavin’s Passion: Ends on evangelism—praying for non-Christians, being bold in sharing Jesus because “people are so desperate.” (53:31)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Gospel Experience:
  • "You gotta pass through from saying, ‘Jesus died for sinners,’ to being able to say with a sense of joy in your heart, ‘Jesus died for this sinner.’" – Gavin Ortlund [02:23]
• On Pastoring the Anxious:
  • “Repentance is awesome. Repentance is such a gift. Like, oh, I can get rid of that. Don’t believe the lie that, ‘Oh, I can’t get out of this sin,’ because now you’re calling God a liar.” – Francis Chan [17:30]
• On Persevering Through Criticism:
  • “I pray for you, because... it’d be so tempting to feel like you have to make a rebuttal before you have a time of enjoying him and being deep with him. And then whatever you say isn’t going to have that power... It’s like, no, but if you’re abiding in his love… then the things that you say will have this power.” – Francis Chan [25:08]
• On Protestant Identity:
  • “He [Gavin] makes me proud to be Protestant again, you know, because we can look at so much of... almost get embarrassed by things that are out there in the name of the evangelical church.” – Francis Chan [45:43]
• On Catholic and Orthodox Relations:
  • “Even while I’m saying I have these deep systemic concerns about this system... nonetheless, as a Protestant, I feel I’m being very Protestant to say... I’m going to look to the Gospel. Does this person walk with Jesus?” – Gavin Ortlund [44:31]
• On the Next Generation & Unity:
  • “… There just seems to be this move of—we just want truth. We don’t want to be separated from each other. We don’t understand all the battles.” – Francis Chan [51:13]

Timestamps of Important Segments

• 00:40–03:50 – The need for experiencing God’s love before engaging complex theology.
• 04:20–05:57 – Francis on the importance of the fear of the Lord and God’s holiness as foundational.
• 07:07–09:38 – The supernatural grasp of the gospel & the necessity of ongoing, deepening experience of God’s love.
• 12:14–13:00 – Discussion on communion, division, and focusing on the sacrifice of Christ over denominational divides.
• 14:47–16:06 – Gavin’s practical encouragement on starting daily with the love of Christ.
• 17:07–24:00 – Dealing with sin, shame, repentance, and practical spiritual focus.
• 29:47–32:36 – Francis’s practical approach to starting the day and handling criticism.
• 37:36–44:56 – Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox dialogue: truth, unity, and individual faith.
• 50:20–53:17 – Encouragement for the new generation seeking unity and truth.
• 53:31–54:24 – Final remarks: evangelism and prayer for revival.

Tone & Language

• Candid, Pastoral, and Encouraging: Both speakers are open about their insecurities, failures, and spiritual hunger, with a notable lack of harshness or triumphalism.
• Respectful & Irenic in Theological Disagreement: Where theological critique arises, it is paired with an irenic (peace-seeking) spirit.
• Saturated with Scripture and Personal Testimony: The conversation combines biblical references with real pastoral experience and vulnerability.

Final Thoughts

This episode is a nourishing reflection for anyone grappling with anxiety, criticism, or division in the church. Francis Chan and Gavin Ortlund model how to anchor dialogue, relationships, and doctrinal differences in the inexhaustible love of God. The wisdom, humility, and joy evident in this conversation offer a powerful roadmap for both personal and communal Christian life. This conversation will especially benefit listeners who want to move beyond mere argument to a deeper experience of Christ’s love, even as they navigate the complexities of theology and church unity.