Crazy Love Podcast

Episode: Legalism, Burnout, and Breakthrough | Francis Chan & Ken Murphy
Date: October 13, 2025
Host: Crazy Love Ministries
Guests: Francis Chan and Pastor Ken Murphy

Episode Overview

This deeply personal episode features Francis Chan and his longtime friend, Pastor Ken Murphy, as they revisit their seminary years and trace parallel struggles with legalism, burnout, and the often-overlooked reality of not feeling truly loved by God. Their candid discussion unpacks a journey from performing for acceptance to living out of the reality of God's unchanging, grace-filled love—a theme at the heart of Francis’s new book, Beloved. Both men reflect on the heavy toll of legalism in ministry and family, and the liberating breakthrough that a true revelation of God’s love brings.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Seminary Memories and Honest Reflections

• 00:46–06:45: Francis and Ken reminisce about seminary days. Ken recalls Francis's infectious joy, unique passion for the Gospel, and memorable sense of humor—tempered by academic struggles and hidden personal battles.
  • Quote – Ken Murphy (03:06): "One of my memories was just your instant joy. As I met you, there was this joy, but you were different than most the guys there."
  • Francis admits those years were his worst, marked by hidden sin, hypocrisy, and insecurity under the surface of an outwardly passionate life.
• Both describe feeling pressure to perform and the inward doubt about their standing with God, exacerbated by academic comparison and spiritual striving.

2. The Drift from Joy to Performance

• 08:23–13:12: Ken shares how his spiritual journey after seminary was marked by a growing chasm between theological knowledge and daily experience. Despite initial joy and calling, he gradually became consumed by the need to “prove” himself spiritually.
  • He references the struggle Paul describes in Romans 7: “The good that I want to do, I don’t. The things I hate, I keep doing.”
• Ken’s pursuit of “Lordship” led to a relentless, performance-driven faith, where rest in Christ always felt just out of reach.

3. Burnout and Crisis

• 13:12–14:51: Ken openly shares the physical and emotional toll of this mindset—losing 40 pounds, developing severe allergies, and being overwhelmed by anxiety and striving.
  • Quote – Ken Murphy (13:16): "I lost £40. I became allergic to everything. I could eat eggs. That was it. And so the stress of it was just overwhelming me."
• The pressure flourished under church cultures emphasizing sovereignty, holiness, and wrath, while neglecting the love and grace found in Jesus.

4. Breakthrough: The Gospel of Grace (Romans Unpacked)

• 14:51–18:49: The turning point came through slow, deep preaching through Romans and the influence of Martin Luther and John Bunyan. Ken realized he was missing the Gospel’s second half: not just forgiven for sin, but credited with Christ’s righteousness by faith.
  • Discovering Romans 4:16 was pivotal—assurance and rest come only by faith, never by works.
  • Quote – Ken Murphy (16:22): "All I can do is hold out an empty hand and look to Christ and Christ alone, and I can be certain. And it just began to overwhelm me... I sat in that gym and I think I wept for five hours."
  • Galatians 5:1 and Romans 6–7 further cemented the truth that true holiness grows only from grace, not law.

5. Transformation in Ministry and Family

• 19:19–24:15:
  • Living under grace transformed Ken's family life—moving from overwhelming his kids with legalistic standards to modeling and cultivating a home filled with the love of Christ.
  • Parenting shifted from law-based (“a hundred rules”) to gospel-centered (“Love God... and your neighbor as yourself”).
  • Quote – Ken Murphy (22:52): "I was so blessed to start learning how to parent by grace and not by law ... so your home doesn’t smell like Mount Sinai, but Mount Zion."
• His wife, Laura, and eventually his children, found similar freedom, breaking generational cycles of legalism.

6. Pastoral Insecurity and Ministry Culture

• 24:26–29:02: Both men express concern and compassion for widespread struggle among pastors. At a recent pastors’ conference, the majority admitted uncertainty about God’s love.
  • Quote – Francis Chan (29:04): "I would say 80% of the people were like, that's me. And got on their knees. And these are pastors. And I'm seeing the insecurity in pastors everywhere."
• The unhealthy “grind” and pressure to perform, build, and achieve leads to loss of joy and first love, affecting entire congregations.

7. Joy, Rest, and Grace-Fueled Living

• 31:03–34:02:
  • Ken describes joy and freedom as “heaven on earth” after breaking out of the cycle of striving.
  • Quote – Ken Murphy (32:08): “What I have now, it’s heaven on earth ... my joy in serving him, now it’s a joy. Where before, it felt so weighty.”
• Francis echoes the “counterintuitive” truth: real holiness flourishes only when grounded in assurance of God’s love.

8. Practical Advice and Real-Life Applications

• 34:02–37:29:
  • Ken urges pastors and Christians to root their lives in the secret place and the love of God, not busyness or ministry “output.”
  • Suffering and loss bring this reality into sharper focus—Ken shares the story of sitting with a young widower at his wife’s grave, drawing hope and peace from resurrection promises.
  • Quote – Ken Murphy (35:17): "What’s really important is starting to take over, and to love people is really, really important ... receive the love of God, live into it, and let him love his body."

9. Death, Hope, and the Certainty of God’s Love

• 37:29–44:15:
  • Ken recounts ministering to a dying young mother who experienced Jesus’s comforting presence with utter certainty, facing death in peace.
  • Jonathan Edwards and the concept of Divine love—including the future hope and anticipation of heaven—are discussed passionately.
  • Quote – Ken Murphy (41:06): “Heaven is love, Edward said ... and in love, [God's] going to withhold nothing. He’s going to pour out eternal love on you forever and ever. You’re going to finally fully know how much he loves you."
• The difference between worldly hope (wishful thinking) and biblical hope (certainty rooted in God’s promise) is highlighted.
  • Quote – Francis Chan (42:26): "...the word hope ... is waiting for something that’s certain versus like this hope, like, oh, I hope they win, but I don’t know.”

10. Fighting for Faith: Ongoing Process

• 44:15–46:53:
  • Both admit that insecurity and legalistic tendencies can return, but the fight of faith is ongoing. Renewing the mind with Gospel truth daily is vital.
  • Unresolved wounds, upbringing, and abuse can color how believers see God and must be addressed with gospel grace.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Ken Murphy (16:22):
  “All I can do is hold out an empty hand and look to Christ and Christ alone, and I can be certain. And it just began to overwhelm me... I sat in that gym and I think I wept for five hours.”

• Francis Chan (29:04):
  “I would say 80% of the people were like, that's me. And got on their knees. And these are pastors. And I'm seeing the insecurity in pastors everywhere.”

• Ken Murphy (22:52):
  "I was so blessed to start learning how to parent by grace and not by law ... so your home doesn’t smell like Mount Sinai, but Mount Zion."

• Ken Murphy (32:08):
  "What I have now, it's heaven on earth ... my joy in serving him, now it's a joy. Where before, it felt so weighty and so serving out of a God who, you know, who loves you, it's almost—You can't get exhausted. Wow."

• Francis Chan (26:36):
  "It made me miserable. It made me more sinful. I mean, I was trying so hard to live a holy life, and that was the most unholy I'd ever been."

• Ken Murphy (41:06):
  "Heaven is love, Edward said. ... He's going to pour out eternal love on you forever and ever. You're going to finally fully know how much he loves you, and you're going to love him perfect, and we're going to love each other perfect."

Timestamps of Important Segments

• 00:46–06:45: Seminary memories, hidden struggles, academic pressure
• 08:23–13:12: Ken’s early ministry, the widening chasm of legalism
• 13:12–14:51: Burnout and physical/emotional crisis
• 14:51–18:49: Theological breakthrough: faith, grace, and the righteousness of Christ
• 19:19–24:15: Family and parenting transformed by gospel rest
• 24:26–29:02: Pastoral insecurity, ministry culture, conference insight
• 31:03–34:02: Describing the newfound joy and freedom of grace-fuelled living
• 34:02–37:29: Grief, presence, and ministering from rest
• 37:29–44:15: Facing death, hope in glory, and the certainty of God’s love
• 44:15–46:53: Daily fight of faith and processing wounds with gospel grace

Takeaways for Listeners

• The Christian life is not about working for God’s love, but living from God’s unchanging love in Christ.
• Legalism and performance can destroy joy and bring burnout—in pastors, families, and church cultures.
• Gospel assurance comes from faith in what Christ has done, not in our striving or spiritual performance.
• The freedom and rest of knowing God’s love transforms every area of life—marriage, parenting, ministry, and even how we face suffering and death.
• Ongoing faith involves daily renewal—reminding ourselves of the promises of God, and not reverting to self-reliance or old patterns.

Notable Reading Recommendations

• Jonathan Edwards on the love of God
• John Bunyan’s Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners
• Hudson Taylor’s Spiritual Secret
• (And Francis Chan’s new book: Beloved)

If you long to move from insecurity and performance into the rest and joy of God’s love, consider exploring the resources suggested and connecting deeply with the truths of the Gospel outlined in this conversation.