Legalism, Burnout, and Breakthrough | Francis Chan & Ken Murphy

Summary

Crazy Love Podcast

Episode: Legalism, Burnout, and Breakthrough | Francis Chan & Ken Murphy
Date: October 13, 2025
Host: Crazy Love Ministries
Guests: Francis Chan and Pastor Ken Murphy

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Episode Overview

This deeply personal episode features Francis Chan and his longtime friend, Pastor Ken Murphy, as they revisit their seminary years and trace parallel struggles with legalism, burnout, and the often-overlooked reality of not feeling truly loved by God. Their candid discussion unpacks a journey from performing for acceptance to living out of the reality of God's unchanging, grace-filled love—a theme at the heart of Francis’s new book, Beloved. Both men reflect on the heavy toll of legalism in ministry and family, and the liberating breakthrough that a true revelation of God’s love brings.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Seminary Memories and Honest Reflections

• 00:46–06:45: Francis and Ken reminisce about seminary days. Ken recalls Francis's infectious joy, unique passion for the Gospel, and memorable sense of humor—tempered by academic struggles and hidden personal battles.
  • Quote – Ken Murphy (03:06): "One of my memories was just your instant joy. As I met you, there was this joy, but you were different than most the guys there."
  • Francis admits those years were his worst, marked by hidden sin, hypocrisy, and insecurity under the surface of an outwardly passionate life.
• Both describe feeling pressure to perform and the inward doubt about their standing with God, exacerbated by academic comparison and spiritual striving.

2. The Drift from Joy to Performance

• 08:23–13:12: Ken shares how his spiritual journey after seminary was marked by a growing chasm between theological knowledge and daily experience. Despite initial joy and calling, he gradually became consumed by the need to “prove” himself spiritually.
  • He references the struggle Paul describes in Romans 7: “The good that I want to do, I don’t. The things I hate, I keep doing.”
• Ken’s pursuit of “Lordship” led to a relentless, performance-driven faith, where rest in Christ always felt just out of reach.

3. Burnout and Crisis

• 13:12–14:51: Ken openly shares the physical and emotional toll of this mindset—losing 40 pounds, developing severe allergies, and being overwhelmed by anxiety and striving.
  • Quote – Ken Murphy (13:16): "I lost £40. I became allergic to everything. I could eat eggs. That was it. And so the stress of it was just overwhelming me."
• The pressure flourished under church cultures emphasizing sovereignty, holiness, and wrath, while neglecting the love and grace found in Jesus.

4. Breakthrough: The Gospel of Grace (Romans Unpacked)

• 14:51–18:49: The turning point came through slow, deep preaching through Romans and the influence of Martin Luther and John Bunyan. Ken realized he was missing the Gospel’s second half: not just forgiven for sin, but credited with Christ’s righteousness by faith.
  • Discovering Romans 4:16 was pivotal—assurance and rest come only by faith, never by works.
  • Quote – Ken Murphy (16:22): "All I can do is hold out an empty hand and look to Christ and Christ alone, and I can be certain. And it just began to overwhelm me... I sat in that gym and I think I wept for five hours."
  • Galatians 5:1 and Romans 6–7 further cemented the truth that true holiness grows only from grace, not law.

5. Transformation in Ministry and Family

• 19:19–24:15:
  • Living under grace transformed Ken's family life—moving from overwhelming his kids with legalistic standards to modeling and cultivating a home filled with the love of Christ.
  • Parenting shifted from law-based (“a hundred rules”) to gospel-centered (“Love God... and your neighbor as yourself”).
  • Quote – Ken Murphy (22:52): "I was so blessed to start learning how to parent by grace and not by law ... so your home doesn’t smell like Mount Sinai, but Mount Zion."
• His wife, Laura, and eventually his children, found similar freedom, breaking generational cycles of legalism.

6. Pastoral Insecurity and Ministry Culture

• 24:26–29:02: Both men express concern and compassion for widespread struggle among pastors. At a recent pastors’ conference, the majority admitted uncertainty about God’s love.
  • Quote – Francis Chan (29:04): "I would say 80% of the people were like, that's me. And got on their knees. And these are pastors. And I'm seeing the insecurity in pastors everywhere."
• The unhealthy “grind” and pressure to perform, build, and achieve leads to loss of joy and first love, affecting entire congregations.

7. Joy, Rest, and Grace-Fueled Living

• 31:03–34:02:
  • Ken describes joy and freedom as “heaven on earth” after breaking out of the cycle of striving.
  • Quote – Ken Murphy (32:08): “What I have now, it’s heaven on earth ... my joy in serving him, now it’s a joy. Where before, it felt so weighty.”
• Francis echoes the “counterintuitive” truth: real holiness flourishes only when grounded in assurance of God’s love.

8. Practical Advice and Real-Life Applications

• 34:02–37:29:
  • Ken urges pastors and Christians to root their lives in the secret place and the love of God, not busyness or ministry “output.”
  • Suffering and loss bring this reality into sharper focus—Ken shares the story of sitting with a young widower at his wife’s grave, drawing hope and peace from resurrection promises.
  • Quote – Ken Murphy (35:17): "What’s really important is starting to take over, and to love people is really, really important ... receive the love of God, live into it, and let him love his body."

9. Death, Hope, and the Certainty of God’s Love

• 37:29–44:15:
  • Ken recounts ministering to a dying young mother who experienced Jesus’s comforting presence with utter certainty, facing death in peace.
  • Jonathan Edwards and the concept of Divine love—including the future hope and anticipation of heaven—are discussed passionately.
  • Quote – Ken Murphy (41:06): “Heaven is love, Edward said ... and in love, [God's] going to withhold nothing. He’s going to pour out eternal love on you forever and ever. You’re going to finally fully know how much he loves you."
• The difference between worldly hope (wishful thinking) and biblical hope (certainty rooted in God’s promise) is highlighted.
  • Quote – Francis Chan (42:26): "...the word hope ... is waiting for something that’s certain versus like this hope, like, oh, I hope they win, but I don’t know.”

10. Fighting for Faith: Ongoing Process

• 44:15–46:53:
  • Both admit that insecurity and legalistic tendencies can return, but the fight of faith is ongoing. Renewing the mind with Gospel truth daily is vital.
  • Unresolved wounds, upbringing, and abuse can color how believers see God and must be addressed with gospel grace.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Ken Murphy (16:22):
  “All I can do is hold out an empty hand and look to Christ and Christ alone, and I can be certain. And it just began to overwhelm me... I sat in that gym and I think I wept for five hours.”

• Francis Chan (29:04):
  “I would say 80% of the people were like, that's me. And got on their knees. And these are pastors. And I'm seeing the insecurity in pastors everywhere.”

• Ken Murphy (22:52):
  "I was so blessed to start learning how to parent by grace and not by law ... so your home doesn’t smell like Mount Sinai, but Mount Zion."

• Ken Murphy (32:08):
  "What I have now, it's heaven on earth ... my joy in serving him, now it's a joy. Where before, it felt so weighty and so serving out of a God who, you know, who loves you, it's almost—You can't get exhausted. Wow."

• Francis Chan (26:36):
  "It made me miserable. It made me more sinful. I mean, I was trying so hard to live a holy life, and that was the most unholy I'd ever been."

• Ken Murphy (41:06):
  "Heaven is love, Edward said. ... He's going to pour out eternal love on you forever and ever. You're going to finally fully know how much he loves you, and you're going to love him perfect, and we're going to love each other perfect."

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 00:46–06:45: Seminary memories, hidden struggles, academic pressure
• 08:23–13:12: Ken’s early ministry, the widening chasm of legalism
• 13:12–14:51: Burnout and physical/emotional crisis
• 14:51–18:49: Theological breakthrough: faith, grace, and the righteousness of Christ
• 19:19–24:15: Family and parenting transformed by gospel rest
• 24:26–29:02: Pastoral insecurity, ministry culture, conference insight
• 31:03–34:02: Describing the newfound joy and freedom of grace-fuelled living
• 34:02–37:29: Grief, presence, and ministering from rest
• 37:29–44:15: Facing death, hope in glory, and the certainty of God’s love
• 44:15–46:53: Daily fight of faith and processing wounds with gospel grace

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Takeaways for Listeners

• The Christian life is not about working for God’s love, but living from God’s unchanging love in Christ.
• Legalism and performance can destroy joy and bring burnout—in pastors, families, and church cultures.
• Gospel assurance comes from faith in what Christ has done, not in our striving or spiritual performance.
• The freedom and rest of knowing God’s love transforms every area of life—marriage, parenting, ministry, and even how we face suffering and death.
• Ongoing faith involves daily renewal—reminding ourselves of the promises of God, and not reverting to self-reliance or old patterns.

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Notable Reading Recommendations

• Jonathan Edwards on the love of God
• John Bunyan’s Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners
• Hudson Taylor’s Spiritual Secret
• (And Francis Chan’s new book: Beloved)

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If you long to move from insecurity and performance into the rest and joy of God’s love, consider exploring the resources suggested and connecting deeply with the truths of the Gospel outlined in this conversation.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

Welcome to the crazy love podcast. Two classmates, 30 years of ministry, and one question that wouldn't go away. Am I truly loved by God? Today, Francis Chan sits down with longtime friend Pastor Ken Murphy to talk about the drift from joy into performance and the moment a revelation of God's grace finally broke through. This is a conversation about moving from working to be loved to living from a love that never changes. It's the heartbeat of Francis. New book, Beloved. An invitation to trade insecurity for assurance and worshipful joy.

[Francis Chan]

I think it's pretty crazy that I ran into that guy in New Zealand, Michael. How long ago was that? Like a year ago. I'm in New Zealand, just got done speaking at the airport. So someone calls my name, I don't recognize him. And he goes, I went to seminary with you. And I go, oh, shoot. You know, I just don't like to run into people from seminary because two reasons. One, I feel like that was the worst version of me. Secondly, all sorts of things have been said about me since I've been to seminary. And it's like, what does this guy think of me? Anyways, he brings up, Ken Murphy was just out here, and honestly, there was a part of me again where half of me is like, oh, Ken, that was like the one guy I liked in seminary. And then there's the other side of like, oh, shoot, what does he think of me now? You know, because there's just been so much drama over there, and I don't know, just feels so misrepresented. But anyways, I got your number, called you, and I don't think it was coincidence. I feel like when we got together and you told me your story, I was like, blown away because it felt like God took us down these kind of similar paths and everything else. So that's why I wanted. I just wanted other people to hear your story. But before we even get into that, I was curious. On the plane over here, I was thinking, what do I want to ask Ken? I'm curious, like, what do you remember about me in those days? Honestly, you can say good, bad, whatever. I'm just curious.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

At seminary?

[Francis Chan]

Yes. During those years. Let's say we never talked again. You had those three years with Francis Chan as a 21 to 24 year old.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Sure.

[Francis Chan]

And then I'm gone.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Well, I'll give you my. My fun memories and then a real serious one.

[Francis Chan]

Okay. You can do bad things, too. Okay, good. Anything, really. I think it's funny. Yes, really. Just, like, go for it, because I'm actually curious. Okay.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Well, really, I think one of my memories was just your instant joy. As I met you, there was this joy, but you were different than most the guys there.

[Francis Chan]

Thank you.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Seminary.

[Francis Chan]

Thank you.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah. And if you. If you look at maybe an academic, you know, mind, something like that, you. You kind of came in and there was just a real fun spirit about you. So I do remember that. I remember that, you know, you fell asleep every day in class. You.

[Francis Chan]

You.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

There would always be a squiggly line and. Yes.

[Francis Chan]

And that was back before laptops, we had to write.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah. And it was usually because you were up surfing the night before and you were always tired. But I think what stood out, though, is I just remember Don McDougall's class. He was asking questions. And the night before, you had, like, a little revival at your youth group. You preached the gospel, and there were so many kids coming to receive Christ that there weren't enough people. And I just. I remember your passion for the gospel. And I just. I knew there was an anointing that God was going to call you to a mighty ministry in the gospel. And it. It so stood out with me that I just. I love that part. The part that I remember also is, like, me and Laura, my wife, we got a. A card for Christmas. And you weren't married yet, and you were on a beach with these two blonde girls. And it says, merry Christmas from Frances Chan. And me and Laura are like, what is this? So I text you, I said, who are these? And you said, they were walking by, and I just asked if they gave my Christmas picture.

[Francis Chan]

No, they were at the college. This was.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

This was. So it was the beach. Yeah.

[Francis Chan]

I don't know.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

I'll find the card.

[Francis Chan]

No, it wasn't that bad.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah.

[Francis Chan]

So no one knew them. It was funny. Cause me and my friend Joel, we just had these two girls from the college, and we had them. We just took pictures of ourselves with these girls to send to old girlfriends from back home. Merry Christmas. Missing you. So I send one to you.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah. That was sweet of you.

[Francis Chan]

Thank you. Thank you. Thinking of you, but.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah. So your humor was refreshing. It probably kept me sane. You know, we laugh so much that it helps me get through seminary. So I always loved that about you, your heart and your spirit. But that gifting for the gospel was unique. And I love that you're still treasuring it and still preaching it anywhere and everywhere you can, so.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah. Well, good. I mean, I'm glad you remember good things.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah.

[Francis Chan]

But honestly, those were the worst years of my life. And there was a lot of hypocrisy in my life. And there was hidden sin. There was. I mean, it was just a mess. And so it's just. I was more just curious.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Huh.

[Francis Chan]

Did I hide that well?

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

You did.

[Francis Chan]

And I did hide it well, which is sad.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah. I didn't know those parts.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah, it was. It was a bad season. I don't know. It was weird. Like, I always tell people, if I could redo a season of my life, it would have been that Bible college, seminary years, they were the worst. Worst of my entire 57 years of life. So. But what I remember, you was basketball. You were better than me. You were a lot better than me.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

You've come a long way to admit that.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah, you just dominate. But we'd go and we'd play. I remember that. I remember some jokes that we can't tell while the cameras are going. We were working through our sanctification at that time. It wasn't that bad. It was just over the line. And I remember how hard you and your buddy Russ were working. Because when we first started seminary, I mean, we took. We had every class together. And so, you know, we'd get our tests back in the beginning, and I would ace everything. Cause I was right out of college and, you know, just have some racial advantage. I mean, I was just acing stuff. And I'd look at you guys, and you guys had been studying all night, and I'd have higher grades. And, you know, I didn't really study. I just knew how to take tests. But I just remember how by the end, like, you and Russ really knew what you were talking about. You actually knew the stuff, and your grades were better, and you guys graduated with honors. And I didn't. And I felt guilty about that for years. I'm like, lord, what a failure. I got worse grades than Russ and Ken. Yeah, I. Seriously, it haunted me for a while. It literally did. It was like, I failed. I failed. But anyways, that's what I remember about you.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

That's good.

[Francis Chan]

But I'm curious. After seminary, I know that you went out, planted a church. But then things kind of took a. I don't know if it took a turn or if it was just like this trajectory you were on because you were wrestling with the lordship of Christ, just being uncertain whether or not he really was the Lord of your life, which is what I was wrestling with. I didn't tell anyone, but I remember distinctly in college, just someone saying, do any of us know if we're going to heaven? We don't know if he's Lord of our lives we won't know till we die yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah so that's the way we were as college students then in seminary. For me, it just kept going down that road. And then my failure and even my grades of, you know, not graduating with honors, it's like. And you guys graduated. Oh, shoot, I'm failing. He must not be Lord of my life there's sin in my life. He must not be Lord. And I just started working at it, you know, just trying to be as pure as I could so that I could be accepted by him, which is the opposite of the Gospel. But it sounded so. Right. It sounded so religious and pious and godly, but you kind of went through a similar. Maybe even more so. I'd love if you explained the way you. Because when you shared some of it with me, I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm not alone. And then the more we talk to people, we realize we're really not alone.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I do appreciate that first meeting that we had. And when we re got back together at the coffee shop, for me, when I got saved, it was in 1987 at a Billy Graham crusade. And so I was just shot out of a cannon. And the love of God had so overwhelmed me that I just. All I could do was preach and share and tell everybody. And it. You know, I would skip classes to go read my Bible on campus. And I just had such a relationship with Christ, like, just filled with joy. And so right away, you know, I got my dream job, and I felt like I was stealing because I just was so on fire to share the gospel with everyone. So I took off to seminary, and I took in so much truth and so much doctrine, and I. I was just loving it and loving it, but I didn't understand Romans 7. You know, the good that I want to do, I don't. The things I hate, I keep doing. So I'm beginning to grow in this knowledge of God. And my practice isn't growing to the same degree because, I mean, I was trying to graduate in two years, so I was taking 27 credits. I'm studying all the time. I'm not meditating on what I'm learning. It's. You hear great truths, you go to the next class. So there's this chasm growing, but there's this new heart that wanted to please God so bad. And I just kept seeking to. I wanted lordship. I wanted complete surrender. And I think I heard it wrong. But what I was interpreting is that I had to change my life this much so that I could rest in Christ. And so I'm just trying and trying and trying. My theology was so good. I knew that was wrong, but in my conscience and heart, that's what I was doing. And so it just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And then when we planted that church, there was a real God had three attributes. Sovereignty, holiness, and wrath. And there was just really a de. Emphasis on Jesus Christ. So there's this really good high preaching. So it just kept growing the chasm. And so I'm sitting here just. I almost felt like Martin Luther when, when they asked, he says, what do you want, Martin? And he said, I want a God who I can love and who loves me. And all I wanted was to get back to that love that I knew at the beginning and to just love him. But I knew so much that I just. I felt like I'm not surrendered enough. And I just kept trying and trying and no matter what I tried, I just was getting. It was like Bunyan sweeping up that dust, trying to clean your heart. And I'm choking on it as I'm trying to clean up my life. So I. I went into about a 5, 10 year battle with. Just fighting to. To gain assurance and, and know his love again. Wow. And so that was, that was a dark time. And I. I think when we met, you know, that was what happened.

[Francis Chan]

You told me though. I mean, it, it got. Did. Did you say you went to the hospital?

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah. I lost £40. I became allergic to everything. I could eat eggs. That was it. And so the stress of it was just overwhelming me. Wow. And so, I mean, it was, it was intense.

[Francis Chan]

Because you weren't sure that God loved you.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah. I'll give you one example. I wanted to come one Sunday and worship God and not have my mind drift. And I would get up earlier each Sunday, drink my coffee at three in the morning, read the Psalms for three, four hours to get my mind ready, come to worship, and my mind would drift. And so I had Galatians 5:1. I had put myself back under the law. And I just. I loved God and I wanted to please him, but it just. My reach always exceeded my grasp. And no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't reach that place where I felt like now I can rest in Christ. And so that's when God began to do a work in my heart.

[Francis Chan]

But so what, what triggered it? Like you knew that? Did you know this was happening? Kind of, or.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

I knew that I wanted Lordship, okay. I was longing for that and I just couldn't get it. So I just, I thought just keep trying, you know, keep studying more, read the Bible more, serve more. Like I just thought if I kept serving, I would get to that place where, where I could rest in Christ.

[Francis Chan]

And I forget, was there something you read or a sermon you heard or was it just reading a passage or like what? Or did you just hit rock bottom?

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

It was rock bottom. But I was preaching through Romans, so I spent five years preaching through Romans. And when it first hit was in Romans 1:17, where he says in the gospel, it's a subjective genitive, a God kind of righteousness is revealed. And so all of a sudden what I'm reading then with Luther in my own heart, is that the righteousness that God requires, he gives to you by faith. And so all of a sudden I'm starting to realize that I, I'm missing half the gospel is I know the cross paid for my sins, but I'm looking at my own righteousness, trying to gain enough so that I could be approved. And I missed that. The other part was God would take the righteousness of Jesus Christ and put it to my account and look at me as if I live the life that Jesus lived. And so that starts breaking in. And then I'm reading Bunyan, Grace abounding, the chief of sinners. And Bunyan gets through the same spiral that I got into. He thinks he committed the unpardonable sin and he struggled. I think it was seven years. So he's in this deep battle thinking that he can never be redeemed. And one day he's walking in a park and he said it finally hit him that the righteousness that God requires is seated at his right hand. And it's the same yesterday, today, and forever. And when he has a good day, it doesn't increase, and when he has a bad day, it doesn't decrease. And he said it finally broke in and joy overwhelmed his heart when this so called righteousness and lordship that I was craving and seeking actually was a free gift that God would give to me. And he could actually look at me and say, this is my son in who I'm well pleased. And that started overwhelming me. And then I shared with you, I was in a gym leg day lifting, and I'm the only one in the gym. And all of a sudden it finally hit me in Romans 4:16 that he says, you know, this gospel is by grace. I want to do it all through my son. And so the only thing that can fit with that, he said, is faith. If you add one work to falls apart. So it's like the only way that this gospel works is if it's by faith alone, he says, so that you may be certain. And I'm sitting in that gym going, I can be certain. And the only way it can be is if I bring nothing to this table and he does it all. And all I can do is hold out an empty hand and look to Christ and Christ alone, and I can be certain. And it just began to overwhelm me. In a few verses earlier, Romans 4, it says, to the working one, his wage is what he earned. And then it says, but to the one who's not a working one, but believes in him, that is credited to him as righteousness. And so I'm realizing I'm still trying to be a working one to get God's favor. And so not working because I have his favor. So I had it backwards. And so that's when the light came on and I sat in that gym and I think I wept for five hours. I just. I mean, laughing, crying, like he loves me. And Romans 5:5 says, I'll shed abroad the love of God in Christ Jesus in your heart. And at that point, I don't think he. It just. He just like sticks that in there. He stuck it in there by showing me that it's by grace, through faith, and you can be certain. So it's through the gospel that finally shed abroad. He really loves me.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And I was brought back to. Now I can rest. And that rest will begin to change my life the way that I wanted it to. And so I had it all backwards, trying to work hard so I could rest. And once I rested in that gospel, he began to change things.

[Francis Chan]

Wow.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

That I could have never changed.

[Francis Chan]

How long ago was that?

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

That was about 15 years ago.

[Francis Chan]

15 years ago.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

So I've been journeying this a little longer.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

But that was the. The freedom that started breaking in. And then as I kept going In Romans, Romans 6:14 says, Sin shall not have dominion over you. Why, you're not under law, but you're under grace. And that chapter is on sanctification. So now I'm starting to put it all together, that there's a way to live more holy than if you're under law.

[Francis Chan]

Yes.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And the way you live more holy is if you're under grace.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And you're under this God who accepts you and loves you and receives you through his own Son. That's going to begin to Produce works that the law never could.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And then he moves into Romans 7 and says, you've died of the law.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

So you might be joined to another, the Lord Jesus Christ, in order that you might bear fruit for God. So the only way you're going to bear fruit for God is if you die to the law. And I was still under the law, trying to perform to get his love and favor. And until you die and be married to Christ who's fulfilled it all, that was where I just. Everything lifted and changed me. And then if you love me, you'll keep my commandments. And so it all came together is you can't do an end around God's love. I was trying to serve so that I could know he loved me. And once I knew he loved me. It just flows now. Yeah. Love to him and love to others. And it's genuine and it's real and it's sincere. Because God first loved me. The whole Bible, we love because he first loved us. And what's the greatest commandment? To love God with your heart, mind, soul, and strengthen your neighbor, yourself. And upon these two things hangs the whole law.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And so the whole law has been pointing to that. And the gospel is, produces that. And that's what God wants from his people. And so it has changed my life.

[Francis Chan]

Overwhelmed. Yeah. So no fire hose? No. Seriously. No, I mean, like hearing that makes me. Okay now, that experience you had in the gym that day, the overwhelming, you know, scriptures coming alive in new ways. Did you still. Was it like a. I never. You never went back. Was there, you know, what was that process like?

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Pretty much never. I don't really think I've ever lost that again.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

But there's days, you know, I think because we have remaining sin.

[Francis Chan]

Yes.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Some days I sense it more.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

It doesn't matter. Matter whether I do or don't. I just know it's there now.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

So it does peak and valley how much I perceive it.

[Francis Chan]

Yes. Yes.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

But I. I know that it doesn't fluctuate, it does not change it. His love for me can't, can't increase or decrease.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah. Now I'm curious with your, Your family. Okay. So Laura, you know, and the kids, they were following you in this legalistic kind of, you know, this lifestyle is destroying you. How did that affect them? And then when they saw the change in you, how did that affect them?

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah, that's a great question. I'll never forget one day when I was in the middle of it all, Laura looked at me and she Said I miss my old husband because I was just so melancholy and sober. And, you know, I just. I lost all joy from being under the law. And that, that hit me, you know, and. And when. When God set me free. So it. The blessing was my kids were not that old yet.

[Francis Chan]

Okay.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

So I was really. Man. I was reading them the Bible for two hours, shorter catechisms, memorizing. You know, I was so over the edge. We read a missionary every. I wanted them to see missionaries be unsaved, saved, and go give their life to God. And these poor little kids are just getting overloaded.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And. And so it was, it was beautiful. The Lloyd Jones, he said, parenting, the best parenting, is to make, to show your kids that the most beautiful home is the home filled with the love of Christ. So to begin to now bring into a home someone who knows his love and shares it and permeates it and models it in a local body where there was always families in our home, there was always ministry. Ministry. And so they, they began to see the. The joy of Christ in their daddy and I. I was so blessed to start learning how to parent by grace and not by law. Yeah. And that's a whole series to talk about. But there's a huge difference to parent by. By grace. So that your, your home doesn't smell like Mount Sinai, but Mount Zion. And not just 100 rules.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

But every summer I'd say, guys, we got two rules. To love God with your heart, mind, soul, and strengthen your neighbors, yourself.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And I would just tutor him with that to Jesus Christ to show him that no one could keep it.

[Francis Chan]

Wow.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And so it was a beautiful fruit. And then I preached Romans. I came back and just repeached it. Yeah. Laura was raised in a lot of legalism as well. And she said, man being sanctified by grace has finally broken. And so she just, in the last five years, got majorly set free from living under the law and knowing that God loves her Now, I feel like.

[Francis Chan]

That'S something God is just doing in people's lives currently, like, recently, I'm seeing it everywhere where people are. I mean, like, I believe I was saved all those years.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

I was too.

[Francis Chan]

You know, I think the enemy just got me so fixated on my own actions that I didn't look at the cross that often. I didn't think about his love. I was just constantly evaluating mine because I don't think it's good enough. I don't think it's good enough. And I think we were kind of pushed that way. In our education.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Because I, I became a navel gazer.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Because I, I, I was in love with Jesus when I was in high school. And I don't know, it was great. I loved it. And it was just somehow the more I studied, you know, in college, seminary, not blaming everything on that, it was just. I don't know, there was just like a system put in place that seemed more spiritual or. I don't even know. Spiritual is a word. Just more serious. And I wanted to be serious. I did not want to mess around, you know, I mean, I. Obviously, you remember, you're like, wow, you don't want to mess around. I mean, to me, that was very serious. So just, it was. I was doing the best with what I had, you know, But I did, you know, so when I became a believer, I started telling all my friends about Jesus. I would cut class to tell people about Jesus. So there was a seriousness in, like, I've got to get the gospel out. But I really believed. I'm forgiven if I die tonight, I'm going to heaven. And then something in those years, that's what the enemy does. He, like, he deceives us. And now suddenly I'm working for something I already had. And it made me miserable. It made me more sinful. I mean, I was trying so hard to live a holy life, and that was the most unholy I'd ever been.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

I think that's a gift from God. It is. You can't get holy by law.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah. And then it's like, lately, after really praying, you know, which I've shared with you and writing about in the book, like, oh, my gosh, you know, I'm starting to understand his love for me. It's counterintuitive. You would think I'll be less holy because it's all grace now and I'll not care about doing his work. It's like, no, I am so excited to do his work. I feel like sin is kind of just losing any hold on me. And my logic tells me that shouldn't work. You know, if I feel guilty and feel shame and I'm unsure that I'm going to heaven, that would motivate me to be more holy. You would think that would work, but it doesn't. It's somehow abiding in that love which is walking in the spirit. You don't fulfill the desires of the flesh. Yeah, that's it.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

It is counterintuitive. And that's how we know it's the truth.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah. So you've now with your kids, do you feel like they get it and they're.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah. And I think that they had to journey as well.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

You know, even if you preach it to them, it seem like it's something you got to discover on your own. Like, we're also wired toward legalism.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah. And then you told me at the coffee shop you. You've been trying to minister to other pastors to help them out of this. Yeah. Because you're seeing. Just like I'm now seeing. There are a lot of guys stuck in this and they're the leaders of the churches.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah. No, I'm running into more and more. Even the pastors conference that you and I just did, you know, can we talk about that?

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

So, you know, at the end, you were sharing this, and people who didn't know his love, that they were really secure in it, Knowing I'm loved by God. Come kneel down if you want to be prayed over. That.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Almost everyone in that room did.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And so here's all the leaders and pastors as you come together.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

That. You know, I think the grind of ministry, there's just different things that. Yeah. You can drift and be going through the motions and lose your first love.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And it was interesting.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

I didn't expect that many.

[Francis Chan]

I didn't either. Yeah. The question was like, how many of you? I think I said something like, you're only 70 to 80% sure that God loves you and that you're his child. Like, it's like. And I would say 80% of the people were like, that's me. And got on their knees. And these are pastors. And I'm seeing the insecurity in pastors everywhere. And then I think, gosh, and so how is the congregation? You know, that's some of the concern I have in my life is, gosh, if that was me and I'm preaching, then that's going to be placed on them. That's why even when I ask about your kids and your wife, because you know who you are is going to impact them, and they'll be. You don't even try to disciple them, but you do. They pick it up from you. And so that broke my heart. It excited me that these guys are honest and wanting the love of Christ in their heart now. But it also breaks my heart that they've been working and serving God. And if the chief aim of man is to glorify him and enjoy him forever, how do you enjoy a God that you're not sure if he loves You. I.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

In my season, I couldn't.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And so I don't know if you can. Yeah.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

I think there's a lot of pressure to perform, to build things, plant things, revital. Like, there's just so much pressure that I think we just lose what this is all about. And to love God and to love others and to spread that. I think we just. We get lost.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah. It was so encouraging to see how happy you were at the coffee shop.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Oh, man.

[Francis Chan]

Just like your joy. Yeah. It's just. I think we went through a dark season of work. And I. I mean, there's still some. It's not like I was just absolutely miserable the whole time. There's still, like, seasons, experiences. I wasn't being fake. It's just like there's this little, like, doubt. And you don't know if you can just publicly say it, you know, because you're the pastor and you're not supposed to doubt your salvation. You're not supposed to doubt God's love. And so if I doubt it, then that's even to make things worse. So I'm just not going to talk about it and I'll just have my own private struggle. But it doesn't mean that the spirit never used us and that great things did not happen during that season. It's just we just missed out on something very precious during those years.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah. You know, what I have now, it's heaven on earth.

[Francis Chan]

Wow.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And it. It makes the. You know, I think of Jacob, you know, serving Laban for his daughter.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And he served for seven years and then seven more. And he said it felt like nothing because of his love for her. I just. My joy in serving him. Now it's a joy. And it seems like nothing now. Where before it felt so weighty and so serving out of a God who, you know, who loves you, It's. It's almost. You can't get exhausted. Wow. Like, it continues to burn the fuel in the fire.

[Francis Chan]

I mean, what. What piece of advice would you give to people? Because I just thinking about this on the way here, too. Like, we should be the most ecstatic. Like, you know, like, what's that joy? Joy inexpressible. Like Peter says. Like, I can't even explain to you. That's what I saw in you when we were at the coffee shop. Like, wow, okay. This is joy. Like a deep, deep joy. Inexpressible. Like, I don't have words for this. It's so good. But I don't see that often. And I think, you know, we read those passages and it's almost like something on the menu that you've never really tried or tasted, you know, and, and I think a lot of people listening to this will be like, I don't have that joy. I'm still. Maybe I, I'm not so bad to where I'm losing £40 and can only eat eggs.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah.

[Francis Chan]

Which is weird. I've never heard of that. But anyways, it's. But I think there's a lot of people that are not experiencing this life to the full. What, I mean, what do you say when you counsel someone like that?

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

I think almost every, probably 90% of pastors I talk with, they get put under this weight and they're just trying to be faithful to God. They want to do their calling, they're laboring at it, but it becomes just that. And it takes so much time, effort, energy. I think the secret place diminishes and you know, the gospel gets away. And you get. When you get physically weary from just grinding like that all the time, I think it wears you down. And for me it's brought me back to simplicity. And I had a dear, he's like my son who just buried his wife. She's 30 with a 3 year old and a 1 year newborn when she got the cancer diagnosis and we went, he wanted to show me the grave. They picked out the grave site and they had rocking chairs there and we sat in that rocking chair for three hours talking about the resurrection and what's going to happen to that body and filling each other up with faith and peace and joy. And I had so many things I had to do that day and before I might have had to say, man, I love you.

[Francis Chan]

But I got to, I got to.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And now I'm just present where we could have sat there all day. And we're going to be here together at this time and we're going to journey and lift our eyes and worship God. And we did. So things are. What's really important is starting to take over and to love people is really, really important and trying to balance. I think what helped me when I got so sick is the church grew more when I was sick and I finally realized they don't need me. And I knew that, but I didn't know it. And I think I would say to everybody is, you know, receive the love of God, live into it and let him love his body. Let the whole body use their gifts to work together like you were talking about. Not just one guy preaching using his gift, the whole body and Let the freedom begin to be where we really love each other. It takes a weight off. You know, I got to come up with a new program. I got to come up with this. What does the church need? What are we. You're always looking at that versus looking at Christ, who gave his life for you, and he loves you. And I want to go minister out of that fullness.

[Francis Chan]

I love that.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And not be the hurried pastor like I was.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that was recent. Then at the graveside, that.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah. So those things are breaking loose now. So I learned at 15 years. But, you know, the. The freedom in ministry. It was reading Hudson Taylor Spiritual Secret. That guy. His ministry is increasing, growing. 10,000 missionaries is overseeing. They're gonna. They're gonna die. There's wars, and. And this guy just walked in peace because he learned how to abide. And he's like. They're like, why aren't you worried? And he said, because God is. And he learned how to literally draw everything from Christ and. And let him minister through him like a branch. And so I started learning how deeply to abide in ministry and draw from Christ everything that they need. Yeah, it's all him. And. And he'll give you everything that you need.

[Francis Chan]

I need to get a list of these books you keep mentioning.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

That one will change your life. Okay.

[Francis Chan]

But it's like, literally, I need you to text me Ali. Okay. Which. Yeah. When you tell me a story about you guys sitting in the rocking chairs for hours, I realize why you don't text for sometimes two or three days. So now I'm less offended. But the other thing, too. I mean, this just happened. And you told me the story of his wife, because this was just a couple weeks ago. A few weeks ago.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And she lived in my house. She was like my mom. Oh, really? Yeah. We kept her for about four months, and she just became our daughter. So it was hard.

[Francis Chan]

And you share. Could you share the story? Because I'm trying to. I don't want to butcher it. Of when she's dying and she wants to give. Was this in the hospital?

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

No, she was in hospice. And me and Laura went to her. Her bedside Sunday after church, and she died that week. And she. She told me. She said. You know, she said this whole trial had been about a year and three, four months. She said, there's been, like, this shadow, and these little beams of God's love and light break in. And she said, and that shadow's gone, and all I see is the glory of Christ. And she said, ken, go Tell the church, this is easy, this is easy. Said, you can do this. And the good shepherd just came and met her and it was the sweetest finish I think I've ever seen. But I just, I love that is you can do this. Like she's just saying it's not hard. He is going to come meet you. And it just, I mean, this is.

[Francis Chan]

A woman with a three year old and a one year old.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

She fought so hard to mother those girls. And when God said no, she just received his will and worshiped. And it was beautiful.

[Francis Chan]

I watched the service online after he told me. I listened to her husband and it's just so powerful.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

He led worship and there's a casket sitting right there as he's raising his hands, worshiping Jesus. And I was just sobbing in the front row going, this is the Holy Spirit. And afterwards it was like a wedding versus a funeral. And the unbelievers didn't know what to make of that.

[Francis Chan]

Oh, gosh, that's so amazing.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

I was reading this book on Edwards, another book, I'll say. But he's talking about the love that's existed for all of eternity and the Trinity and it's so abundant. And then God sends his Holy Spirit into us and he sheds abroad that love into our hearts so that now it's a divine love that we love him with and we love others. So it's the same love, but just different objects. So divine love causes us to love him and love others. And he says it's going to climax in heaven where heaven is love, Edward said. And he said, hell is where God's going to pour out undiluted wrath. There'll be no more common grace. It's just, they're going to. It's just going to be unending. And he said, in love, he's going to withhold nothing. He's going to pour out eternal love on you forever and ever. You're going to finally fully know how much he loves you and you're going to love him perfect. And we're going to love each other perfect. That's how this all is going to climax. So how do we not rejoice with joy unexpressible where this train is going? Wow. Like, it just. It's eternity.

[Francis Chan]

So good. One of our elders just spoke on Hope last Tuesday night and he was just talking about, what do you anticipate? Like, what's the longest you anticipated something where you anticipated every day, you know, and some would say, oh, my wedding day or my child being born. One of our Elders, like five years. I was anticipating getting out of prison, you know, just like every day thinking about that day, and he's just like, why aren't we hoping in this future love? This future? Who hopes in that? Who sits around talking? That's why it's beautiful when you're saying we're sitting on rocking chairs at a grave site talking about what it's going to be like.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

It was intense and beautiful. I think, though, that the reason we don't hope is the reason we don't know his love. We're not living in the gospel where we really believe that God loves me. So if I don't believe that I'm 70% sure, how do I hope? Because I'm hoping 30% isn't wrong.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

So I think they're tied together.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And when you know the fullness of his love, you have the fullness of his hope because you're certain.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah. I think we use the word hope.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Like the world.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah, like the world. Because, like, I hope the Nuggets win, you know? But you don't know. It's just that I'm just hoping. Whereas the word. The way I understand the word hope, you would know better as elpis.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

I think when you're asleep, it meant certainty.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah. No, but I did. I do remember some stuff. Isn't that it? Elpis?

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah.

[Francis Chan]

See, I know some words, too. But isn't it the idea that it's almost like in Spanish, the word hope and the word wait are similar or the same word. Espero. Esperoque. I hope that, you know, I wish for this. Or it also means I wait for this. Like I'm waiting for the bus, like it's going to happen and I hope it's going to happen. It's the same thing. It's just like a. Waiting for something that's certain versus like this hope. Like, oh, I hope they win, you know, But I don't know. And I think that's the way people look at heaven. And this future exists in the new heaven, new earth. God's presence with us is with this worldly hope that isn't just waiting. It's waiting to find out if it's actually going to happen.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah. And that's what I loved about this lady. It was certain and she ran to it and she said, you can do this. She wasn't 90% sure. She ran to it and her husband said, from the day we met, when they were in high school or college, all she ever talked about was heaven. And so it Was almost like God gave her this special assurance and he called her home early. And there was a beauty and a hardness to it.

[Francis Chan]

Okay, last thought. Unless another one comes up.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

But.

[Francis Chan]

I've. So the Lord did a work in my life where I realize all of this. Like, I've been so focused on my love towards him and questioning my love for him that I don't take time to meditate on his love and his promises. Like, I would tremble at his commands, but not at his promises. And that was just. It's like, no, I got to tremble at those two. He said it. I have, you know, and that helped me. Like, I have to believe this, you know, and the more I meditate, it's like he was setting me free. The more he put the love of Christ in my heart. I would know. I would know, I would know. But there are still times where the enemy gets in my head and takes me back, and suddenly I'm feeling those old, insecure feelings again. I mean, did you ever go through something?

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Oh, yeah, I have to fight. I think it's a fight of faith every day.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Because we had to get to ground zero and understand it.

[Francis Chan]

Yes.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And now we got to fight to live into.

[Francis Chan]

Okay.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And I think one thing that blessed me was when. When Luther was set free and all together. Born again in the bell tower. It was later. I can't remember, a diet of worms. He was going somewhere, and it came on him again. And he had the same despair and darkness.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And he thought, oh, no. And he went and fought the fight of faith, and it cleared.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Way quicker.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

And so I really think that, you know, we have remaining sin renewing our minds and truth. That we can still go back to performance. We can still go back. You know, the conference that we just did with the big group. What I heard from everyone, probably 80% of the. The church that I pastor that came was people who were abused. And when you shared about the abuse that you went through it, it broke for them that I have that view of God like my dad. And there was a freedom that overcame people that night to finally realize that's that's not who my father in heaven is. And so I think there's hangovers from how you were parented, how you, you know, were a perfectionist and you had to perform to get people's acceptance. So we're so geared that way that I think we have to renew our minds every day in the gospel. To keep myself in the love of Christ.

[Francis Chan]

Yeah. Yeah. It's great.

[Pastor Ken Murphy]

Yeah.

[Francis Chan]

It's great.

[Podcast Host]

Thanks for listening to the Crazy Love Podcast. We hope this conversation stirred your faith and drew you closer to the heart of God. If you're longing to know the kind of freedom that Francis and Ken were discussing, we encourage you to check out Francis new book, Beloved. It's available now wherever books are sold, and to learn more, you can visit our [e-mail] Beloved.