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Foreign.
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Welcome to the Crazy Love Podcast. Have we reduced church to something predictable, something we can control, to where we've just settled for church being fine? But what if the most powerful part of gathering isn't something we can create at all? In this episode of Staff Talks, Francis unpacks what it means to be stewards of the mysteries of God and how to move from managing church to actually experiencing his presence.
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Yeah, there was a lot of stuff in these last few days, a lot of things from a biblical worldview. He says, don't stare at what's seen because that's all temporary. Stare at what is unseen. That's what's eternal. And it just heightened my imagination of what is real, how much is downloaded to me from God himself. That is not all cognitive. Like, oh, I saw it or I heard it. I mean, that's what biblical. That's 1 Corinthians 2. No eyes seen, no ears heard, no mind is conceived by these things that God has revealed to us by his spirit. And, you know, and she's talking about the demonic side and musicians will just swear that. Now I got that from another being. You know, that's a lot of the stuff we listen to guys that, you know, what's the name of the famous demon? Slim Shady or, you know, whatever. It's like that, you know, they say I call up these. This being that tells me this or that. And meanwhile, as believers, we really believe that the Holy Spirit can just communicate to us. And even, you know, like the message I gave at Vintage, it was just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Oh, my gosh. It was just very. Like, sometimes it just flows. It's like, wow, I feel like I got a crazy killer outline. I didn't even get to it all, but it was just like, how did that all come so quickly? And so outlined so well. It's only happened a couple times, so a couple things. One God was showing me again, like some of this stuff we take for granted in other places, like a Pepperdine or vintage or some of these gatherings. Like, it's mind blowing to some people. What we just kind of assume. And we've all known that to some degree, like when you have church intensive guys come out, it's like, whoa. Well, I gotta go way back to this. Like, they're not even enjoying their time with the Lord. They're still not even really praying or just like, wow, that's weird. And so it was just kind of a reminder to me. I think Kevin's brought that up at pastors conferences where some of the things I bring up, it's like, it's really significant to them. And if I guess for me, if I'm around just the same group all the time, I'll keep looking for new stuff. That's probably not the main thing. They're just like, because it's new. I think that's the way my mind works. But then when I'm in other environments, maybe I'll go back to the foundational things because I'm realizing, oh, wow, they might be missing out on some of these things. So the message I really feel like the Lord gave me for vintage church, and I thought it communicated well, even though it wasn't complete and it was a little kind of crazy, it was that verse in First Corinthians 4:1, where it says, let all men regard us as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. That were not, first of all, like, if I go to a place to speak, they don't just consider me a servant of Christ. It's more a Christian celebrity or someone that'll draw a crowd or whatever. And some with good intentions. Like, no, I think he brings something deep here that we need and that I truly could impart something to them, but not as a servant of Christ or as a steward of the mysteries of God. Usually they want me to bring something new to them. I mean, when you go to a church gathering, you know, you may be hoping to learn something or that you didn't know before, but it's information. Or maybe he's going to explain a passage like, I've never heard it explained before. It's explanation. It's information. It's not mystery. And yet the thing I was emphasizing to that group of people is just, yeah, the music was awesome. The vibe of the place is awesome. I'm going to give a good message that is a gifting of mine. But if that's, like, enough, like, that's really sad and. And for decades that's been enough for people, and they don't want mystery. Like, something mysterious can happen. Because, you know, like, I, you know, we can sing songs like the Blessing and their children and their children and their children. And as long as we sing it well and the band's good, that's awesome. But if you look at that passage where he tells Aaron and his son, saying in Numbers chapter six, at the very end, he says, speak to Aaron and his son, saying, thus, you shall bless the people of Israel. You should say to them, the Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace. So shall they put my name upon the people of Israel and I will bless them. Whoa, what do you mean? Like, you're going to put my name on the people and bless them? Look, I'm not sure I understand what it means to have the name of God put on me. Like so Aaron and his sons will say this, and somehow that act will put his name upon me and bless me. And these things will happen to me. Like, do I really believe that when I come to a gathering, it's time for a benediction? I didn't even understand the benediction in the past, but now I'm going, oh, like, do I? When I sit and I hear a benediction placed upon me, do I believe something happened there, something mysterious that I wouldn't get somewhere else? That was my point. It's like you guys are content with like a good sermon and good music and feel good stuff, but is there something mystical and then for the Word to be living and active and sharper than a two. Like, what does that mean? Like, the Word goes into my marrow and somehow the Word reads me. Like, wait, that, what does that mean? Like, these words are alive and active and what does it mean that when Paul says, here's the book of Romans, but I can't wait to get to you because I want to impart something spiritual to you, like telling that church so you could have watched a video of me, of a great sermon of mine. But do you go, that's not what I want. I want because the Spirit supposedly, if he loves us, then the Spirit will give him a gift. And somehow it's not just flesh and blood up there. Like there's some sort of spiritual impartation that you get from human beings that you're not going to get from a video. It doesn't mean the video does nothing. But there's some sort of impartation that is human, that AI will never reproduce, because I'm made in his image. And so therefore God is able to speak directly and pour his love into my heart through the Spirit. And that's why the natural man can't ever get this. But I can get it and I can somehow impart, like Isaac imparted to Jacob and Esau and again and then going to the bread and the cup and reading through the road to Emmaus and like, gosh, Jesus was walking, preaching to them and nothing, no clue who he was. They, they're like what are you idiot? You don't know what happened. Like, they're talking to Jesus. Like, what. Are you the only one that doesn't know what just happened in the last few days? So supposedly, and they're telling him the resurrection story, having no clue, they're telling it to the resurrected Christ. That's crazy. And then the moment Jesus and I took a piece of bread, did this. I get it. What? That's. That's why the ancient church is like, no, something with the breaking of the bread and eating the flesh, drinking the blood. I go, don't you come? Because you're going, oh, this is. This could kill me. According to Romans 1 Corinthians 11. But I need to recognize the body. And, like, this is a mystical, supernatural. Like. Like, do we understand what happens when we come together? And is that. Do we really believe that there is a spiritual, unseen thing that can happen here that can't happen anywhere else? And that's why I'm coming here. That's why I'm gathering with these people. And then I didn't even get into this, but after I, like, wrote all these things down, I'm like, oh, that's why they devoted themselves to the apostles teaching, you know, to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread, to the prayers, because that's when this mystery happens, is with those things. And so, of course, they devoted themselves to those things because they were after what so different from our world, where it's like, information, explanation. It's like, no, we're supposed to be stewards of the mysteries and getting people to come going, okay, we're here for mystery, not for a great expository sermon. I mean, why did they get together in those early days? It's like, no, something can happen. It's all, well, I'm going to wait in this upper room because something mysterious is going to happen to me, and then I'll have this power. I'm going to believe that when I gather with believers in love, there'll be something. And it goes along with that waiting that we talked about last week. And. But Mark was like. He was just saying, like, he goes. He was saying, yeah, I come to your gatherings and get in the music, and I'm just about to feel something. And then, hey, we got a men's group coming up Friday night, and women. Hey, children, we got a circus. You know? He's like, okay, all right, all right. Then you get me into your sermon. I'm like, okay, okay. And then we just sing these songs that we always sing every week. And, you know, it's just like, man, what about stained glass in there? What about, you know, when they ring the bell? What about this? This, this, you know, this is. You're right next to Hollywood. We can do these things. And, you know, then I'm pushing back on him going, no, it can't be Hollywood. And, you know, like, I want more than Hollywood. I want this. And even after the message, he was like, I still want the stained glass. I still. I go. I go, but didn't you hear my message? Like, that's not what we're after. He goes, okay, let me ask you something. Would it hurt? I go, no, it would hurt it. He goes, okay, that's all I'm saying. That's what I want. I always get what I want. Okay, whatever. But he was just talking about, like, my experience in the Roman Catholic Church is, yeah, the bells, the. The darkness, the stained glass, the mystery alongside of all this other stuff. And. And I was trying to explain to the pastors there that when we love each other, like, which, again, I still don't know of churches in America that are known for their love for one another. And we're not even chasing that. We don't believe there's a mysterious presence of God when we love each other as he's commanded us to. And yet, first John 4 says, it's when we love each other that he somehow made manifest among us. And that's the whole beloved concept, is when we know his love, this is going to be. Then we're going to love each other. And there's just. We're creating this temple of the Holy Spirit that's somehow invisible. So I don't know. I'm just realizing that in our gatherings, it's very easy again to go, well, this was at what we were after. But it's just human nature. We're gonna deviate from this stuff. And pretty soon it's like, who's in my house, church? Who's leading worship this week? And, oh, cool. You know, I like when Dalali. She's awesome. I get excited, like, no, but there's something about her, too. She seems in tune with the presence of God. But there's just like that fleshly. Oh, it's that again. Or. Or whatever. Or Will King's gone. We gotta go with Will Cotter. All. You know, there's this. No. You know. You know what I'm saying? Like, we can become who's here, who's not. And again, it's not mystery anymore. And I just. I want the mystery that's what I was saying to the crowd. I go, really, this is enough. Don't you want to leave? And just go, whoa, what happened to me in there? But it continued and it's in my soul. And like, I really believe mysteriously something happened to me in my high school, college years where it's like, I don't really need anyone to push me in any direction because there's something burning inside of me that I want to be in the presence of God. I want all the sin out of my life. I fear the Lord. I want to be used for him. And I don't know that anyone's ever really pushed that in me. It's all coming from the inside out. It's this mystery. And I think as we seek that and rather than seek all the things that are explainable, and again, it's not that I'm against counseling or I'm against all this stuff, I'm just saying that's all explainable. And how do we get our churches back into the mysteries of God and steward those things? Well, because there are things in this book that you just can't quantify and explain just from flesh and blood. And if we're not pushing our people towards that, Then we're not going to get them very far. And to believe in the mysterious prayers, mysterious communion, mysterious living word of God and this, the mystery that happens when we love each other and the spirit then gives us gifts for these people. And I feel like that was happening as I was speaking. I do think there's a mystery to my gift. I mean, that's probably the most I've preached in a long time. You know, just because I'd have like a two hour session here, two hour session there. And it's just, you know, with space and time to soak this in. And I go, wow. Yeah, that is in a weird way, I don't know, I just leave so put pumped up and like, wow, that was good. That was really good. That was. Feel like something real happened, you know, and I just want everyone to, to experience that. And so somehow it's to take our eyes off of the things we can see and really measure almost physically and trust. Something happened at that table. And so it was very fun to be at a church and feel like I raised their. I don't know if imagination is the right word. Is it the right word? Yes. Yeah, like a gospel imagination.
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Like be like, like break that ceiling of like what's possible. Yeah, like it's just like you kind of think so low so Low.
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Yes.
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And it's like, no. With the spirit of God, the living God, you know, the victorious God and the power of God and the resurrection of God and all that stuff. And like, the cosmic demons. Like, you can't be like. Be like, like, so pick. Pick up kids at. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's so and so to be like, hey, like, there's all this, you know, scaffolding around religion that we just try to, like, box it in and make it, like, very predictable and something that people can come to and exit out of and. And, you know, whatever.
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And it's.
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It's just very explainable. But it's supposed to represent an image, a proxy for the unexplainable. For most people, all that they see is just the kids program and youthful retreat, you know, you know, parking lot logistics.
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That's the thing. Yeah, yeah.
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And that's a. That's a sad part of it. Unless you continue, like, the pastors continue to, like, like, preach and people continue to hunger and long for, like, the unseen internal things, it is very easy to just, like, collapse into these, like, very, like, widgets of Christianity.
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Yeah, yeah. I've used this illustration in the past, but I think I need to bring it back more. I mean, it's explained to one of the groups, like, you've got this typical church service, like at. At this church. Beautiful facility. I mean, it's awesome. It's. They rent it and. But it's. You got space galore to mingle, hang out. It's beautiful. The energy, the vibe, tons of university students. You've got great worship band, good worship leader. And then I'm guessing your buddy and speakers is fine. You know, and so it's always. It's always going to be here. It's never going to be horrible. If that team at that place shows up every week, it's never going to go down here. But what I'm saying is it's never going to get up here either. And it's like, when you collapse that stuff, it's like, lord, if you don't show up, this is going to be the stupidest gathering. But if you do show up, you know, you're going to do things that this could never do. And we're scared to get rid of this because it's like, oh, this could bomb. But I'm like, gosh, all I want is that possibility of that. And I just think as long as we create these controlled environments. It's the illustration I used when I was at a waco at Antioch. I said, you know, they have a wave machine place there. You know, I go, you know what's going to happen when you get to this one spot? That's where the wave breaks, and you paddle and it's going to be a great wave all the time, consistent. It's a wave machine, and it's a blast. You know, I haven't done it, but I'm assuming that would be so fun. Take all the guesswork out and you just paddle the same place. The water is always the same temperature. There's no sharks. There's nothing, you know, or, you know, you jump in the ocean and you just don't know what's going to happen. Like this rogue wave or this rogue, hungry great white. Or. Or you could just have the ride of your life, or it could just die as you're sitting out there. And there's nothing like, we want church service like the Waco Wave that just. You're guaranteed. And my human nature just, you know, get me up there. I know it won't suck. Let me have mercy with me or Diana with me, or, you know, it's going to be fine. I don't know. It's just anytime we start thinking that way, I think the Lord goes, oh, you're happy with that? Okay. And I should have said this there, but I go, I'd rather be at Taco Bell in Compton with a chance that I'm with a few people that just want. Want to experience the presence of God over a crunchy taco, you know, like, okay, let's go, let's go, you know, but we can't be happy with the other stuff. I don't see that in Scripture. They had to have the spirit, and we're just content with good information, charisma. Charisma in the fleshly sense, and just energetic worship. And that'll grow a church, you know, from all outward appearances. But, you know, and that's not to discount everything that's planning and creating a good environment or whatever else, but it just seems to always lead you towards a contentment in those things. And I don't know how to fix that. But it's fun, you know, dreaming a little bit with the leaders there and just throwing out some ideas and seeing what they do with it. But for us, it's okay. How do we steward mystery? Because we can very easily. I mean, today's reading was about the traditions and the commands and. And we can just start doing our tradition and not expect these things. So that's it.
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What's the answer, like, for us, right?
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Yeah, there's. There's. Yeah, yeah. Mystery. Like, we have to get serious about believing that we are stewards of the mysteries of God. And so a pastor's job then I think I said this little a couple weeks ago in Brazil, and I'm going to share it here, is not just preaching the word of God, but trembling at the word of God and believing. It's doing something to me. And therefore, when I get to the people, it's like, okay, I'm stewarding that. What the word of God did in me, it's. I have to be, like, freaking out about communion and really believing week after week. This could kill me. This could kill someone else, according to scripture. And yet there's this grace that could be imparted during this time, too. I have to believe that goes all the way back to when me, you, and shed were praying about. Maybe you were there about the spiritual gifts. No, no, that's right, because you were against it at first. But, like, saying, no, this is scripture. We're to eagerly pursue these things, and that means every person in our church, that means Roberto or his kids have a spiritual gift to impart. And we got to believe that. You know, it's. It's like this mysterious thing. And, you know, I remember us leaving that prayer time going, okay, you know, Kevin Shedden was like, yeah, absolutely. And then he had Roberto's kids heal his back. You know, like, he came out of that stewarding a mystery, and we lose that. That's the mission. Drift is going back to what's safe and what we know will, quote, unquote, work, and it won't suck. And. But that's what God was always against in the Old Testament, clearly, of, oh, you're going to go with that, King? Oh, you're going to trust in the chariots of Egypt? Do it. Here's what's going to happen. And like, what he says to King Asa, he's like, no, my eyes are roaming. I'm looking. I want to strongly support those who really believe and put their trust in me. And so there has to be. It's just like a. A changing of what we believe. As leaders, our job is to keep the mystery and the power of God in front of people. But sometimes that means emptying ourselves of what we know will work humanly and going spiritually. No, God says otherwise. Can we give a more creative prayer? He says, but this is the way you're going to put my name on the people. Let's go with this. Instead, you know, these are the words of Jesus. Let's pray. Our Father, who art in heaven. Something happened when Jesus broke the bread. Let's do that. Let's wait on the Lord. They've always waited on him. So how do we keep our people in that? Because I'd say most of our leaders are sometimes we're scrambling for something new to teach on Sunday, and because they're bored. So to get them out of their boredom, let's do something more creative rather than having greater faith in the simple and in the mystery of communion and the mystery of just reading his word out loud, you know, and kind of that lectio divina. Let me just. Let me read it again and believe these words are going to do something to you. Let me pray this prayer over you, because this is what they did back then, and somehow it puts the name of God on you. Let's love each other and trust that as you love the people there, God's going to give you. I don't know, a prayer, a psalm, to read something. Yeah. To leave space for things like that. And so in some ways, we have a great opportunity for some of those things because we're not rushing to get the kids out of child care and to get him out of the parking lot before the next gathering. And there's just. There's just some freedoms we have. I will say, though, like I have been saying, like, there's also something about the greater gifts that we've not taken advantage of. Initially, it was purposely, but then the last few years, we just haven't figured out how to do it. But I know when I got up there to preach, it was a good thing. There's unbelievers, there's people of all different walks of life. And I feel like the spirit moved and I left satisfied because I felt like, wow, I got to use my gifts and lead them into mystery.
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No, it was good. It got me thinking, actually. Recorded. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was like. Immediately I was going to, you know, be like, we need to, you know, get this out to, like, our pastors. Right. Because I do think people can fall into the road of. All right, max up for convenience. Like. Like, the. The thinking is, like, completely different. And then the other thing else is thinking about was how, like. Like, for the elders of these networks, what I. I think what I like, I'm. I'm like, you need to step down, and I need to step down in all this stuff.
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Right.
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Partly because I think there's a function for, like, decision making and operations that should be passed on. It's kind of like when, you know, where, like, the apostles were, like, hey, you guys, just focus on this thing. But others, you know, who are gifted and, you know, like, take care of kind of like the operations of care.
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Right.
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But when you're sharing. What I realized was missing from, like, SF and maybe like, the young leaders
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of,
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you know, EPA in Fremont is the injection of these DNA.
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Right.
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It's like, when you do, like, these types of talks, you know, it injects, like, fresh, like, DNA of vision, you know, into, like.
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Like groups.
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And I think that's the thing that's been lost a lot. You know, when we decentralized stuff, like when we worked together and, you know, we had, like, our pastors training all at Woolies, it was almost like if we. We got the DNA right, you know. You know, even if they made bad operational decisions, it was like, okay, you know, it's fine. They'll just fix it, you know.
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Yeah.
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But at least, like, they're moving out with the right thinking. Even if they disobey, they. They. They have the right thinking right now. You know, we're like, okay, we don't invest any in, like, kind of like the vision anymore because it was done 10 years ago. And now it's like, well, like, which guy goes to which house, church? What should we do about this day here? What time should we turn off the lights? You know, like. Like, that's the entirety of, like, our. Whatever time with the pastors, you know, problem solving. And I'm like, they can. We gotta like, raise up these, like, young leaders to, like, they can figure out and make wise decisions. And then those who can impart DNA should just.
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Just.
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And then we should just gather together, right? Just have a time where we're, like, together. We're, like, hearing the same thing, praying through the same thing, coming out with the same picture and vision. And then out from there. San Francisco or Fremont can make the necessary decisions they want about all sorts of different things.
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Right.
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But I think we're missing the foundation.
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Yeah. Like I said, I feel like it was a spiritual experience with the Lord where I just had that outline, you know, I just wrote it, and I'm like, oh, God themselves to apostles teaching, you know, the supernatural. Like, it was just. Okay. I don't exactly, you know, put a few verses on a piece of paper, like, oh, yeah, there's my notes for Sunday morning. You know, it's like, okay, I got it. And to get up there and. All right, that was with the Lord and That's my spiritual. I think it was a spiritual download and gift. And so you go, wow, that was good. It's like, well, that's the way it should work. But now it's really just for everyone to have that imagination and almost not copy this. Okay, well, now I want a sermon. It's like, well, that's not going to be your spiritual gift. Probably it's just out of love. What is it? And even when I was at Pepperdine, they're filming some goofy video some guy was trying to talk about trying to figure out God's purpose in life and asked me, okay, what is my purpose? What is my purpose? And I'm like. But I was like, you don't find your purpose by sitting on the beach asking God, what is the purpose of my life? It's by looking at the people right in front of you, trying to love them in some significant way, in the most meaningful way possible. And then the Holy Spirit gives you a gift for that individual, a blessing for that individual, a prayer, a passage, whatever it is. I don't even know. But then as you do that, you realize, oh, that's my spiritual gift. It comes out of love. Love. Not from. Everyone wants to sit and figure out, God, what did you create me for? I said, you don't find that by sitting in isolation. It's by serving and loving. And then supernaturally, things come together that.
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Thank you for listening to the Crazy Love podcast. Join us next week for a new episode, but until then, for more resources from Crazy Love Ministries or to support the work of Crazy Love, please visit our website@crazylove.org. Sa.