← Crazy Love Podcast
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- [00:06]
Podcast Host
Welcome to the Crazy Love Podcast. If you could ask God right now how he feels about you, what do you think he would say? Many of us know the right answer, but struggle to truly believe that God loves us as unconditionally as scripture says. In a recent episode of the Deep End with Lecrae, Frances and Lecrae discussed their personal wrestles with doubt and. And the supernatural truths God has revealed to them about his love. This message echoes the heartbeat of Francis new book, Beloved. An invitation to experience God's love, not just in theory, but in the depths of your soul.
- [00:50]
Lecrae
Everyone out there, I'm extremely excited about this because obviously every time I'm on the deep end, I'm talking to interesting people. Some I've never met, some I have. A few have been people that I really felt challenged by throughout the years. And one of such few is with us today. How you know him, I don't know. Maybe you've read his books. Maybe you've heard his sermons. Maybe you've been to conferences and. And heard him speak. Maybe you haven't heard of him because you're Gen Z and you don't know about what's going on with him. But I want to introduce to some and reintroduce to others Francis Chad.
- [01:42]
Francis Chan
Thanks. Good to be with you.
- [01:44]
Lecrae
Absolutely.
- [01:45]
Francis Chan
It's been way too long, Been forever.
- [01:47]
Lecrae
As we were talking about. I can't even remember the last time we connected.
- [01:51]
Francis Chan
Yeah, I think you, like, called me or texted me once.
- [01:55]
Lecrae
Yes.
- [01:56]
Francis Chan
And. Hey, Francis, your number. Yes. I never heard back.
- [02:03]
Lecrae
I may have something in mind. And then I did, and then I forgot. That's right.
- [02:06]
Francis Chan
A bit.
- [02:07]
Lecrae
I was like.
- [02:07]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [02:07]
Lecrae
I mean, you know, it's just good.
- [02:09]
Francis Chan
That you remembered me.
- [02:11]
Lecrae
Oh, come on. Come on, man. Yeah. It's funny because, like, I mean, early mid 2000s, I feel like we just. We were in a lot of the same rooms, same circle, same spaces. And it was funny because prior to being in some of those same rooms with you, I was just a believer downloading your sermons. You know what I mean? I had read Crazy Love and. And then was just listening to some of your sermons, and I found them refreshing. And one which I'm sure you know went extremely viral, and I've used it on my kids. I almost reinvented it. I almost redid it one Sunday at church, but I didn't because it was just, like, it was too much rope. So obviously I'm talking about the rope illustration, but I'm just curious, like. Like, can you revisit, like, what was Going like your thought process in that analogy. And, like, what was the heart behind that?
- [03:25]
Francis Chan
Yeah, well, you know, actually, the first time I did it, I was, like, 21. I was a youth pastor. And I remember because you remember when you might not. You may not be old enough, but printer paper used to come in rolls. Remember that? With the little circles perforated? Yeah. I had this thing going all the way around the room, and. And just the first little sliver was red. And. And that was how I use the illustration. I go see that red part? That's your time on Earth teaching these high school students. And then comes millions and millions of years. Like, what are you doing during this tiny sliver of time? It's going to affect all of your eternity. And that stuff was always ingrained in me. I think, you know how some people just catch on to certain themes in the Bible and then just because it's natural, I guess because my mom died giving birth to me, and then my stepmom died when I was seven. Then my dad died when I was 12. So I was always thinking, man, I don't know when this is going to end. And this could be my last day. This could be my last talk. I seriously think that right now. And so I don't want to waste time. I don't want to just. I don't know, I don't want to hold back on anything. And I've kind of lived my life that way ever since I was a teenager.
- [04:56]
Lecrae
That's crazy to think like a teenager wrestling with eternity.
- [05:00]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [05:01]
Lecrae
Like, because you had to.
- [05:02]
Francis Chan
Yeah. Because when you see your mom and dad buried, you just start thinking, okay, where are they now? That's pretty terrifying. You watch your body go in the ground and you just go, okay, when's it my turn? At 3. Parents die by the time I'm in middle school.
- [05:25]
Lecrae
Like, And I know you've talked about that before, but, like, that has the potential to cause people to fold inward and, like, run away from God.
- [05:38]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [05:38]
Lecrae
And your story is unique in that. That wasn't your reality.
- [05:42]
Francis Chan
Yeah. It more made me curious.
- [05:46]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [05:46]
Francis Chan
Like, what happens after this life? Because I don't know how much longer I have here.
- [05:52]
Lecrae
Did you assume you were next?
- [05:53]
Francis Chan
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I remember one time, it was at one of those passion conferences, and I was 40. I turned 40, and I thought. I did not think I'd make it this long. I seriously. So then it was like, I'm just gonna say everything because I don't know how much longer I have, seriously. And. But that's the way I lived my life. And I'm so grateful.
- [06:16]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [06:18]
Francis Chan
Because you just make the most of everything.
- [06:22]
Lecrae
Yeah. You. You have a tendency, I think you, like, that actually explains a lot about you in terms of, like, historically, you just sharing so passionately in the moment because it's like, hey, this could be it. Like, this could be. And so you've never, like, minced words. You've always been like, listen, you can die, or, listen, you're walking on this balance beam. What are you gonna just hold on? And like. And a couple years ago, there was an interview you did where you were talking about one of the crisis is in the church today. It was like a couple years ago. And you said, like, speaking directly to matters and problems.
- [07:03]
Francis Chan
Yes.
- [07:04]
Lecrae
Was like a crisis in the church. And just knowing, like, you started off in the 90s and it wasn't that way before, like, what do you feel like changed?
- [07:19]
Francis Chan
Everyone has a platform now. Anyone could create their own platform. Like, back in the 80s and 90s, you don't have a voice unless you actually do something. So very few people had voices. And now it's like, anyone can have a voice. Any teenager can create their own platform, make a intriguing enough video that suddenly they have all these followers. And so it's also a time where everything that you say is scrutinized and can be publicly blasted. And it wasn't always that way. So I think leaders, including myself, you. You get so much feedback on everything you say. Even me being on the show. I don't know what your issues are, but you probably have some. And someone's, oh, Francis went on the Cray show, so he's one of these or one of those, you know, and you didn't have that before.
- [08:25]
Lecrae
Yep.
- [08:25]
Francis Chan
You just lived life and you lived in the moment, and you. You listen, you learn from one another, and. And you can actually process it. You weren't so worried about. I got about 12,000 people that I'll cancel me because of that statement. There's another hundred thousand because I was with this person. And so then you start going, gosh, what do I say? What say? Because I don't want to get all this feedback. And then pretty soon, you're. You're speaking to not get criticism.
- [08:59]
Lecrae
Yep.
- [09:00]
Francis Chan
Rather than just saying, hey, what does the Bible say? What? How would Jesus say this? And I don't want to back off on that. That's hard to do. But for me, I do think about dying. I do think, okay, this could be my last talk. So I am not going to back off, because I could be in front of him any second. I could be before the throne tonight. So God, keep me from being afraid, worried about my reputation. And let me just say anything, and I'll. I'll take the. Yeah, get canceled. I'll get hated. I'll get whatever. But I don't want to be afraid of saying whatever you tell me to say.
- [09:51]
Lecrae
So is it. Do you think, like, obviously. And, I mean, I'm throwing myself in the bucket as well. Like, there's a fear of man that a lot of people in the public space wrestle with.
- [10:03]
Francis Chan
Yes.
- [10:03]
Lecrae
And. And if you're. If you're speaking to a young leader or someone who's coming up in this era where it's like, oh, don't say that because this, and don't say that because this, or you'll lose this or you'll lose that. What's the encouragement that you. Or, like, the challenge you give them in that? Like, obviously, like you said, it's like, hey, this is what the scripture says. But I'm just curious from your vantage point.
- [10:27]
Francis Chan
Yeah, I just remind them of, like, read the Bible. Like, all of the prophets were so unpopular, but they said it, and they were hated and they were killed. And then Jesus went right in line with the, you know, the prophets and said, I will say whatever the Father tells me to say. And the apostle Paul, Stephen, whoever, you know, that they. They all got killed. And. And you got to be okay with that. Otherwise, why do you. Why are you even talking? You know, like, we're supposed to speak for God.
- [11:11]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [11:11]
Francis Chan
Jesus could have had way more followers if he toned down his message. All of the prophets could have had more followers. And so nowadays, when your worth is based upon how many followers you have, you're just tempted to say whatever will keep people coming. But, you know, Jesus preached, like, in John 6, and he had thousands of people, and he's left with a dozen. They all walk away from him. And so you gotta go, well, that's my role model. And I want to end my life coming before God and said, I tried my best to not be afraid of people, not have any selfish ambition. I just wanted to be like your son. I just wanted to be like him.
- [12:05]
Lecrae
So, like, it's interesting because I've been around for multiple eras.
- [12:10]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [12:12]
Lecrae
And you're right. As you're talking about it, I'm thinking through. I'm like, oh, you are right. Like, I never considered the. You know, you can just say this. And they're thinking about, what will I lose but also, I think we live in this vacuum of social media online, where it's not really real life, but we assume it is in a lot of ways. And so someone could just hear what you're saying now and say, he doesn't know. Yeah, right, of course.
- [12:46]
Francis Chan
And.
- [12:47]
Lecrae
And I remember. I remember you, like, you had a megachurch in Southern California. You had sold crazy amounts of books. Everyone was doing your. Your bible studies, your DVDs, people, kids DVDs, these things you watch. It's amazing.
- [13:10]
Francis Chan
That's right.
- [13:12]
Lecrae
But then one day you just said you walked away from it.
- [13:17]
Francis Chan
Yeah, right.
- [13:18]
Lecrae
And I'm not saying that you did that because of what you're talking about, but I'm interested. Like, was it clarity? Was it conviction? Was it, like, restlessness? Like, what were you processing in that time period?
- [13:31]
Francis Chan
There were a few things. I remember one night telling my wife because I had a church in Simi Valley, and one night I just looked at her and I thought, came. I go, honey, I feel like if the apostle Paul or Jesus had a church in Simi Valley, mine would be bigger. And that is bothering me. I would have a bigger church than Jesus because I know how to keep a crowd. They didn't. And so you start realizing, well, am I really being like Christ? And then as I'm looking in the scriptures and I'm looking at, okay, what's commanded? Like, if God could have anything of a church, what is the main thing in scripture? And there was such a emphasis in the New Testament on loving one another as much as Christ loved us. That's how much, like, do I really care about you?
- [14:32]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [14:32]
Francis Chan
Like, genuinely, it's great. We can be on a show. We can be friends, give each other a hug, see, in five years. But do I really, genuinely love you like Jesus, love the church?
- [14:44]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [14:44]
Francis Chan
To where I go, look, anything, I'll give you the shirt off my back. Whatever you need. Like, that's what he wanted. And so I'm like, that's not what I created. I got a bunch of people, thousands of people were playing churches. We got caught. You know, podcast is going crazy, but are we loving each other like that? And then the other thing was, he says, everyone in that church has a supernatural gift for the body. And I'm thinking, okay, if I got 5,000 people with supernatural Holy spirit, like, God is in them either, speaking through them, healing through whatever it is, there's 5,000 people with some sort of gift, and I don't know any of these gifts, and they're not being used in the church. So I was like, okay, Lord, I need to be obedient above all things. And so if you want us to love one another, I don't know how to do it in this giant room. If you want everyone using their gift. I don't know how to do that in a giant room. So I've got to figure out ways to have that happen and release all of these people. So it's kind of. It wasn't like one thing. It was like this perfect storm of all these truths of Scripture coming to my mind, and I'm going, gosh, Lord, all I want to do is be faithful to your word. Do whatever it says. I can let go of the numbers. I can let go of the fame, the money, everything else. I want to please you, though. And so that's. That's. That's where I. I tried to change the church. I didn't know how. And I finally thought, I think I'm causing more problems than. Than I'm helping the church. So that's when I decided, you know, let me step away and mainly get my thoughts together and maybe create something different.
- [16:51]
Lecrae
Yeah, some. Some people would look at that, you know, as, like, idealism, or say, oh, he's idealistic. You're not going to change it all, and you might as well deal with what's in front of you. Or some people may say, that's his personality type or something along those lines. I guess, like, over the years, you know, after all of that, like, hindsight, do you feel like you made the right decision?
- [17:26]
Francis Chan
Yeah, there were so many signs that I wouldn't have. I would have felt so unfaithful if I didn't make the switch. Now there was some idealism, you know, in my head, I thought, this will be easy. They do it in China. There's 100 million of them in house churches. So, hey, this is going to be millions of people. And you realize, yeah, this. This is not easy, but I have peace. And that's where before I didn't have peace.
- [18:02]
Lecrae
Okay.
- [18:03]
Francis Chan
So it may not look as successful having a bunch of homes everywhere with, you know, small groups that are loving each other and different people using their gifts. But I feel peace about it. Yeah, I feel like, no, I really love these people, and they genuinely love me, and these relationships are deep, and a lot of them are using their spiritual gifts. And so I love it. Not gonna lie. There are days when I think, gosh, I really am more gifted to be in front of a crowd and just teach. Just look at natural gifting. Yeah, I'M better as a megachurch pastor, and who knows? I may go back to it someday, But I go right now. This is the peace that I have, and I believe this is the future.
- [18:58]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [18:59]
Francis Chan
It is getting harder and harder for these guys with the big churches. You know, a lot of them are good friends of mine, and they're miserable.
- [19:07]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [19:07]
Francis Chan
And it's just. It's a tough time to shepherd the big thing.
- [19:15]
Lecrae
Yeah. Like, it seems like, just hearing you talk, it seems like you would be the person who, if the limelight in the spotlight is on you, it. It seems like there's more of an internal battle of, ugh, I don't want that. Whereas there's certain pastors who'll be like, praise God, the Lord, put this light on me. I get to shine bright out here. And I'm like, what's the tension there? How do you process that?
- [19:50]
Francis Chan
Yeah, because I. Yeah, it's tough because there are times when I feel like I'm called, go ahead, get in front of the crowd. Get in the stadium. You know, don't be afraid. Just deliver it. And. And then there's other seasons when I feel like he's saying, back off. And, I mean, the number one thing is my heart is, like, before God. Why am I doing this?
- [20:16]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [20:16]
Francis Chan
Is it. Do I want to increase my popularity, or am I trying to be faith? Because I also don't want to run from something that God has called me to.
- [20:26]
Lecrae
Right.
- [20:27]
Francis Chan
It's just there's so many traps with the spotlight. You get so much feedback that you either get arrogant or you get angry or bitter or. I mean, it's just. It's. No one is.
- [20:43]
Lecrae
You tell them my story.
- [20:45]
Francis Chan
Right? Yeah. It's like I'm either go one way or the other, and I, uh. So my rhythm has been okay. Sometimes the Lord's gonna call me. Do it. I gotta go. I gotta get my heart right. I. I try really hard to imagine God on his throne right above the crowd and just going, okay, I might see you soon. I might literally be in your presence. Let me say everything. And God, I. I want to enjoy you speaking through me. Believe it's a spirit. Then other times, I just think he's saying, okay, just go away. Go pray. It's just as effective or more, dig deep with your disciples. Get out of the limelight. I don't know.
- [21:35]
Lecrae
I really do not kind of. I really like what you said about, like, there's 5,000 people and I don't know their gifts.
- [21:40]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [21:41]
Lecrae
I think that's powerful and to be frank, it's one of the reasons why everyone would say, like, oh, man, you have a voice. Da, da, da. You should be a pastor. You should be a pastor. And I. And I've always shunned that. I said, I think you think I should be a teacher. I don't mind being a teacher.
- [21:57]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [21:57]
Lecrae
I think I'm gifted at teaching. But shepherding people, that's a lot of responsibility, and that's a lot of weight. And I always wrestle with that. But then I also hear people's arguments often of, like. Because, you know, well, you gotta remember, like, at the day of Pentecost, 3,000 people came to the Lord. There's nothing wrong with numbers. There's nothing wrong with that. But I guess I'm like, at the same time, there may be 3,000 people praising Bao somewhere. You know what I mean?
- [22:31]
Francis Chan
So.
- [22:34]
Lecrae
I don't know if you have a thought on that. How do we make sense of our numbers? A God thing, or just the reality of.
- [22:41]
Francis Chan
Yeah, I mean, I really don't think it's about numbers.
- [22:44]
Lecrae
Okay.
- [22:45]
Francis Chan
I really think it's about obedience. And if I knew how to gather 10,000 people and truly have them love one another and all exercise their gifts, then I would do it. But I don't know how to do it. And. And I don't know. It's. When I left Cornerstone, I mean, I. I just go. I wasn't saying that this is bad.
- [23:23]
Lecrae
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [23:23]
Francis Chan
It's just I don't know how to get that many people obedient to His Word and prioritize the things that he wants prioritized.
- [23:33]
Lecrae
Right.
- [23:34]
Francis Chan
And I created something that they were just so accustomed to. It's almost like if I opened a movie theater that people have been coming to for 15 years, and I show up one day, I go, movies aren't good for you. Let's do CrossFit. Then now they're like, wait, we've been coming here listening forever, and now you're trying to get us all to exercise? Right. This is not what we signed up for.
- [24:00]
Lecrae
That's a good analogy, you know?
- [24:02]
Francis Chan
And I'm like, it's true. I mean, I was pastor there for 16 and a half years.
- [24:07]
Lecrae
Wow.
- [24:08]
Francis Chan
Just a long time.
- [24:09]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [24:09]
Francis Chan
And so for 15 of those years, that really is what they did. And I loved it. It was like, yeah, is my gift. Let's do it. And then I just got more and more convicted about these scriptures, and I'm. And I've just always been one of those people where I can't live with myself if I know there's something that is commanded and I'm not even trying. Like, I'm not even going after it. I can't. I can't sleep.
- [24:39]
Lecrae
Do you think there's a. I don't know if you even can see that or if you're even tuned in, but do you see younger versions of you out there today?
- [24:50]
Francis Chan
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's. It's. It's. It's weird because I do feel bad about. I don't know, Like, I. I think of my younger self, and the old Francis Chan could look very rebellious. Like, I'm not going to do it the way everyone else does it, and in a lot of ways, making decisions on my own and rather than really in community with the elders, with the leaders, and believing I'm one part of that. And I just saw myself as this voice rather than a part of a body. I just was doing my thing. And I don't know. I don't think it was bad motives necessarily. It's just. I didn't get the whole picture.
- [25:54]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [25:54]
Francis Chan
I didn't understand the unity of the body.
- [25:56]
Lecrae
Yeah, that's good. That's. That's. That's challenging. I'm like. And I'm not a pastor, but I'm processing my own life and thinking through, like, some of the things that I've done and looking back, seeing younger artists and younger people and just, like, wrestling with some of that. I mean, I think for me, one of the things that I think I did a lot of early on was just say yes to everything. Yes, yes, yes, yes, I'll do it. Yes, I'll go. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Send me, Lord. I'll go. I'll go. I'll go. And now I look back and I'm like, ah. I may have said yes too much. And I wondered, like, for a pastor and then a speaker at other places, do you feel like you had said yes too much?
- [26:44]
Francis Chan
I don't really have that many regrets. Okay. Of going and trying and exhausting myself at times. And it was great, you know, I mean, it was.
- [26:57]
Lecrae
It was like a rock star from the old days. Like, yeah, it was fun back then, but it was.
- [27:03]
Francis Chan
And. And if the Lord really wanted me to do it, I mean, I still travel quite a bit.
- [27:09]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [27:09]
Francis Chan
I took, like, two years where I didn't do much, and. And now it's ramping back up again. I'm like, okay, okay, whatever you want me to say. Because I do believe, like, God's given me some Messages like, I haven't done a podcast in forever.
- [27:23]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [27:23]
Francis Chan
Okay. But my team's like, you've got a message that we really feel like you need to get out there. And so. Because I think I said no to you.
- [27:37]
Lecrae
You didn't say you said no to my team.
- [27:38]
Francis Chan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [27:39]
Lecrae
I would take it personally. And then I would plan.
- [27:42]
Francis Chan
Yeah. Because. And then my team was like, hey, I want you to reconsider. You know, a couple of these.
- [27:47]
Lecrae
Thank you, team.
- [27:48]
Francis Chan
Yeah. Because I think there's some things. Because God's shown me some things these last few years.
- [27:55]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [27:55]
Francis Chan
That I think are big. Really big.
- [28:01]
Lecrae
Can we talk about some of them?
- [28:03]
Francis Chan
Yes, yes.
- [28:04]
Lecrae
What are some of these things?
- [28:06]
Francis Chan
It's. It's mainly one thing.
- [28:08]
Lecrae
Okay.
- [28:10]
Francis Chan
Okay. When I was 50, I. Seven years ago, almost eight years ago, I told my wife, I go, I was reading First John 4, and it talks about how perfect love casts out all fear, and if you have fear, your love hasn't been perfected. And I said, I'm still a little bit insecure in my relationship with God. I'm 50 years old. I've been preaching since I was 22. Whatever. And I'm still only 90 something percent sure I'm going to Heaven. There's a part of me that's going, my love hasn't been perfected. I've spent my whole life, like, almost trying to prove to God that I love Him. I will do this. I'll sacrifice anything. I don't need any money. I don't need any of this. You know, it was all because I love Jesus and I do, and. But it was like this. I want to prove that he's Lord of my life. I want to prove it to him. I want to prove it to myself. I mean, it goes all the way back to college and seminary. When I first understood the lordship of Christ and lordship salvation, I thought, man, I don't know if he's Lord in my life. Why did I lust this week? Why am I struggling so much? He must not be Lord. And, you know, we were just taught to, you know, judge others. I don't know if that guy saved. I don't know if that guy's saved. I don't know if I'm saved. Judge yourself. And you just get in this pattern. And so a lot of stuff I did for years, I mean, I believe I was a believer loved by God. I just didn't know it. I'm still like, I'm trying to earn his love somehow. And I realize it was so easy for me all those years to say, I love God, I love God. I'm gonna do these crazy things for God. But it's much harder to go, he is crazy about me. I am so loved by Him. I don't know if it was my upbringing, schooling, whatever, but I was 90% sure that he loved me. And I remember just telling my wife, I can't live like this anymore. I'm going to just tell the church, gather them together for my birthday, and all I'm going to ask is that they pray that this is the year all insecurity is gone. And I'm sure that he loves me. And as I've been talking about that recently, it has blown my mind. How many believers wrestle with this? How many pastors wrestle with this? I mean, I just did a pastor's thing two weeks ago. I said, how many of you are only, like 80% sure that you are loved by Jesus? And I would say 70 to 80% stood up of pastors. And it just broke my heart. I'm like, the enemy has so messes. I mean, can you imagine if your kids were only 80% sure you love them?
- [31:50]
Lecrae
That's crazy to think about.
- [31:52]
Francis Chan
And now you imagine God, the perfect Father, and He has a church full of kids that aren't sure that he loves them and they're loved by him. They're like 80%. And, you know, partially, I don't know. I don't know if I've done enough. I might be going to hell because I don't know if he's lord of every area of my life. And, like, if. If our chief aim is to glorify him and to enjoy him, how do you enjoy a God that you're kind of sure he loves you rather than. This is supposed to be the foundation. We're so, like, where we can be sitting here doing that. If we weren't doing this podcast, I could just sit here and know that Almighty God is looking down at his son and going, oh, I love him. I can't wait till he gets up here. I desire him. That was not me. And I. I have a fear. Fear is not the right word. A concern that because I was like that for so many years, then those who follow me, it's going to come across. However you are as a parent, you know, as a person is going to come out to your kids. And in the same way, who I am as a pastor, it's going to impact my congregation. Kind of like when Jesus said to the Pharisees in Matthew, I think it's 23, 15 or 16. He says to the Pharisees, you. You go over land and sea to make a convert, but once they convert, you make them twice the son of hell you are. And I think, gosh, if I was that insecure, then in my teaching, I probably made other people insecure. If I was so focused on my actions rather than his, then I probably helped lead a generation that's focused on their actions rather than his.
- [34:00]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [34:00]
Francis Chan
And I gotta rectify that. I've gotta teach that. I gotta help people really understand how much God loves them. I mean, I mean, just let me ask you, like, if I could stand before his throne, because right now there's a holy God in heaven.
- [34:18]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [34:19]
Francis Chan
Glory. Like, we can't even understand. We can't even look at him. We would die. And 100 million angels. Just the sound of one angel makes the ground shake. 100 million just screaming out. And if I could come before that almighty God right now, and if I were to say to him, God, what do you feel towards Lecrae right now? What do you think he'd say?
- [34:49]
Lecrae
Well, I. I, like you, am always. Well, like your 50 year old self embattling. That I know the truth. Right. I know what Zephaniah 3:17 says. That he delights. He sings over me. I know that. But knowing that and believing that and trusting that are like two different things. And so I think it's. I'm so glad you're saying this because it's a reality that I think even if someone can say they know, they don't believe.
- [35:39]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [35:42]
Lecrae
I believe without a shadow of a doubt my mom loves me. There's nothing you could say about that. Yes, I. I know.
- [35:52]
Francis Chan
Yes.
- [35:53]
Lecrae
100 sure.
- [35:54]
Francis Chan
Yeah. That's my point.
- [35:55]
Lecrae
100 sure.
- [35:56]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [35:58]
Lecrae
I want to know.
- [36:00]
Francis Chan
Yes.
- [36:01]
Lecrae
That God feels that way. And that's.
- [36:04]
Francis Chan
See, it's crazy. And. And imagine how he feels. That's.
- [36:08]
Lecrae
That's tough.
- [36:09]
Francis Chan
Like Lecrae, you know?
- [36:11]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [36:12]
Francis Chan
Doesn't know that I love. He's not sure. Francis. He doesn't.
- [36:19]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [36:20]
Francis Chan
You know, like, I know that you and I don't question his holiness or his power or his knowledge. Like, you don't. You don't dare go, I think I know more than him.
- [36:33]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [36:34]
Francis Chan
Or I think I can do things he can't do.
- [36:37]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [36:38]
Francis Chan
But there's a part of you that's like, I'm more confident in my love for my kids than in his love for me. So why is it that when it comes to his love, we treat it different when he says, I am love. And if we believe in the cross and we go, no, I do. I confess. Confess with my mouth. Jesus is my Lord and I believe in my heart God raised him from the dead. I'm a child of God. So why these doubts? How is the enemy getting in my head? To where? Because if we are just confident of his love, we just won't fear anything.
- [37:33]
Lecrae
That's what I was. I was thinking that. I was thinking, who cares? Fear is the antith. It's like the lack of love breeds fear.
- [37:41]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [37:42]
Lecrae
And so I'm. Even as you're talking, like, I'm curious your thoughts on this. Like, like the reality of being loved by God for us is still conditional, right? Like, I. I think what it is, is somewhere in the back of my brain. Because humans are conditional.
- [38:09]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [38:09]
Lecrae
That God is. And I know he. I know what the scriptures say. I know what my theology says. I get that. But I don't know if that has penetrated my heart in the same way. And I'm. I'm curious. Like, if you, like, do you think we're conditioned that way just because society makes you earn everything or what do you think?
- [38:28]
Francis Chan
Well, I mean, I know for me, okay, so when I was born, my dad didn't want me because you just killed my wife. He gave me up for adoption and my grandma took me away to Hong Kong because she. I mean, he had it all set up, like, there's a lady who's going to adopt me. Like that's. He clearly did not want me. And so she took me away. And then I think she got too old. And so when I was like five, she made him take me back and he didn't want me like me, and he treated me different from my brother and sister. And I mean, it was just. It was unwanted person. And so you're just striving to earn his approval somehow?
- [39:21]
Lecrae
Yeah, yeah.
- [39:22]
Francis Chan
Whether grades, anything. But you're just always failing and you're not really earning his love. You're just earning some approval.
- [39:31]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [39:31]
Francis Chan
Because love, it's like when your child was born, it was just there.
- [39:36]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [39:37]
Francis Chan
You just felt it. You're like, I don't know why I feel so much emotion for this. Doesn't talk to me. It doesn't. Whatever. It's a meth. But I love, you know, that's love. Everything else is like earning people's approval. But sometimes when we've never been loved, we're. We're good enough with approval. We don't know the difference, you know, hey, look, the People love me, you know, and it's like, no, they approve of what you're doing. And so we kind of grow up with that. And then it's hard to believe in a God who says, no, I loved you at your worst. And I came after you and I said, my son, to die for you when you're at your worst. So how much more, now that you're a child of God, do I love you? It's just. But. But some of it. And here's the thing that I'm realizing, okay? Because, like, at that 50th birthday, my. My staff, they. They just signed people up to fast and pray for a different day every day for the rest of the year. So they gave me a calendar. This is who's fasting and praying for you today. That you'd be totally secure in God's love. It's. There's a supernatural side to it. So even right now, I can be talking to an audience and go, oh, man, I know what to say to make you know, know that you're loved by God. But it doesn't work that way, because that's why Paul says in Ephesians 1. And when he's praying for them, I'm praying that God enlightens the eyes of your heart so that you would know the hope to which you've been called and you would know his glorious inheritance in the saints. Like how he's looking at you as his glorious inheritance. I'm praying that the eyes of your heart would be enlightened. And. And then in chapter three, he says, this is why I get on my knees, because I'm asking God to just grant you strength.
- [41:44]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [41:44]
Francis Chan
You know, by the Holy Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your heart. So he can just live there. So that you would know the love of Christ. You'd be rooted and grounded in love. And you know how wide and long and high and deep. He's like, I'm on my knees praying for this. And he's talking to the Ephesians, who in chapter one, he says to the faithful in Christ Jesus. And then in chapter three, he goes, I'm on my knees praying for you. That God would just grant you.
- [42:17]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [42:17]
Francis Chan
So that Christ could dwell there and you would just be rooted in love, and you would know how wide and long and high. And so it's this miraculous. Like Romans 5, 5 says that the Holy Spirit pours the love of God into our hearts.
- [42:37]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [42:37]
Francis Chan
Like, there's. Like, it's not. Oh, Lecrae was You know, exegeting something explained to me. And now I. Now I get it. Now I know Jesus loves me.
- [42:47]
Lecrae
Thank you.
- [42:48]
Francis Chan
Yeah, yeah. Now the teaching is necessary.
- [42:50]
Lecrae
Sure, sure, sure.
- [42:51]
Francis Chan
But the miracle people who are listening, who grew up being rejected and trying to earn everything, there's a supernatural element to this.
- [43:06]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [43:07]
Francis Chan
Only the Holy Spirit can do.
- [43:08]
Lecrae
That's my story as well. Same thing. I think that's a large part of it. I. I had a mental breakdown.
- [43:15]
Francis Chan
Really?
- [43:15]
Lecrae
In about. In like, 2018.
- [43:18]
Francis Chan
Wow.
- [43:18]
Lecrae
And. And I. And I. And I look back in my notes when I was writing it down because God had to literally carry me through that time period. And I was mad at myself because I felt like I failed God. Right. And I remember writing in there, I'm more devoted to my devotion than I am to God. Meaning that my whole Christian journey was about my.
- [43:47]
Francis Chan
My devotion. Yeah.
- [43:48]
Lecrae
What am I doing? And it was like, I'm not devoted to a God who loves me.
- [43:55]
Francis Chan
And like.
- [43:55]
Lecrae
Like, I'm devoted to the things that I do for the God who loves me. And. But. But that's. And so, I mean, I. I haven't even told this publicly, but got so bad in 2018, I went to the hospital.
- [44:16]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [44:16]
Lecrae
And I was like. I was freaking out. And I was like, yeah, I'm freaking out, and I don't know. I can't make it stop. My brain is racing. I'm having a mental breakdown. And I'm laying in this hospital bed, and I guess I'm near like, the psych psychiatric unit or ward or whatnot. And as I'm laying in the bed, someone gets out of their room and runs over and jumps on my bed. This guy, he had mental issues. So it's like 4 in the morning. This dude is jumping on my bed screaming. And my brain is already destroyed. And now there's a guy on top of me screaming. And I'm just in. And then they get him out. And I'm just in this dark place. I'm just like. I'm like, God, what are you doing to me? Why are you letting all this happen to me? I just. Maybe I failed. I was going off the deep end. I'm not living the way I should be living. And I don't know. I don't know what's going on. And the janitor comes by, and I'm sitting up reading my Bible because it's like four in the morning, and I'm just freaked out. And the janitor comes by and he says, you reading the Bible? And I said, yeah, he Says, you check out Zephaniah 3:17. And that was the first time I'd ever heard that verse where it said that God delights in me. And I was like, not me.
- [45:30]
Francis Chan
Yes, I know we're in the same world. I mean, we were in the same world.
- [45:36]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [45:37]
Francis Chan
And there was such an emphasis. I mean, I hear your story. Like, I. I got. I got a little teary because I'm just going, God, that's not the way you want your kids living.
- [45:50]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [45:50]
Francis Chan
And somehow the system we were in. Read that rather than what Paul says. Like, the love of Christ compels me. Like, I am so incredibly loved that I got to do something that's not the way we were thinking. It was almost like, I got to do all this stuff so that I'll be loved.
- [46:16]
Lecrae
Yes.
- [46:16]
Francis Chan
It. And it's like. Is the opposite of First John 4. Like, we love because he first loved us. It's like, no, if I love him enough, then he'll love me back. And it's so demonic. It's satanic. We have to start with this love. It has to be so. So I just. I'm not plugging a book or anything, but my daughter. I just wrote a book, and it's called Beloved because it's. It's based upon John, the disciple who I never understood. I never got into him because he would write, I think, five times. This is the disciple whom Jesus loves. Yes, I'm the disciple who Jesus loved. Like, that's weird.
- [47:02]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [47:03]
Francis Chan
What if Peter reads that, you know.
- [47:05]
Lecrae
Like, I'm the one he loves.
- [47:06]
Francis Chan
Yeah. It's like if one of your kids goes, I'm the beloved child. It was just a weird thing. I thought it was arrogant. And I just didn't get into John. I. I loved Elijah. I love Paul. I love sacrifice, great things. And John just put my head on your chest. You know, it's just. It was like, that's it, you know, and you're the beloved disciple, you know, And. And it came to a point where I realized, wow. I used to think if I could do anything in scripture, it'd be Elijah on Mount Carmel or, you know, someone of Moses miracles or, you know, whatever it is, or being in the, you know, Shadrach, Meshach and Bennett, you know, but now I go, if I could do anything, anything that I see in scripture, it would be what John did. When he laid his head on Jesus chest. He had his head on the chest of the judge of the universe. And he knew. He's okay with this. He loves me. He Told us that as much as the Father loves the Son, that's how much he loves me. So I can do this. And can you imagine if right now Jesus was here and you had your head on his chest and you knew he loved like you said, the way you know your mom loves you, like the king, the creator, the judge. That's what I want. And I never even noticed that word. Beloved is two words. Be loved. That means I can just sit here and be loved. I don't have to earn it. I just. It's so passive. Like God. I don't have to do something for him to love me back. I can just sit here right now and go, he loves me. And John was not being arrogant. He believed the word of God.
- [49:15]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [49:15]
Francis Chan
He believed what? Jesus. That's why he's the one that wrote that. Oh, just as the fathers love me. He knew it. And then he calls his disciples, like in First John 4. He goes, Beloved, beloved. Let us love one another. Beloved. It wasn't just like, I'm the only one that's beloved. He wanted us to be identified by that.
- [49:37]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [49:37]
Francis Chan
That was his identity. And for so much of my life, I wanted to be this or this. I want to be that radical Christian that would give away everything. Look, Francis gave everything up. He really loves him. He'll sacrifice anything like he has. I wanted to be known for integrity. This, this, this. And now it's like, wow. I just want everyone to know that I am loved by him. And that's all I want to be known for. I used to think that God made me to be a prophet on the earth. Now he made me because he wanted another object to pour his grace upon and his love on. Because the Bible says he's abounding in steadfast love. So it's just, like, pouring. It's abounding, it's pouring out. That's who he is as a being. He's rich in mercy. And he's like, I got to forgive someone Alla cray. He needs forgiveness. Oh, good, good, good. He's asking for here, here, here. I'm abounding in steadfast love. Who wants to be loved by me? Oh, you want to be loved by me? Because that's who I am. Yeah. Yeah. And. And so it's all about us believing his love. And it's really. What's amazing to me is it's counterintuitive, but the more I've believed his love, the more holy of a life I've lived. I agree. And that's. That doesn't make sense. In fact. Okay. It's okay. Am I talking too much?
- [51:13]
Lecrae
No.
- [51:13]
Francis Chan
Okay. Because you're.
- [51:14]
Lecrae
You're on the nose.
- [51:15]
Francis Chan
Okay. Okay. One of my elders said one day he goes, I realize I was. We're teaching through Romans because I didn't want to teach Romans 8:1 that there's no condemnation. He goes, because I. I thought if they know they're not condemned, then they'll just run rampant with their sin. But I almost wanted to keep them insecure because I thought the insecurity would create results. And that's why he did. He was a consultant. He was a business consultant for the biggest, you know, consulting firm. And he's made fortune and what we teach CEOs, everyone else were paid a fortune to tell them the people you want to hire are insecure overachievers. And you get an insecure overachiever and tell them they did something wrong, they're going to. You're going to increase production so much. And it works. You get people that are, oh, shoot, the boss told me that I was failing in this. So they go overboard. Like, it creates action, it creates results. And he goes, I realize I was taking that into ministry. Like, oh, shoot. I want my people insecure so they'll work harder at holiness and get rid of the porn, get rid of the lust, get rid of whatever it may be. Like, I actually wanted them insecure. And that's evil. That's so wrong. But I was afraid, and I think there are a lot of pastors who do this.
- [52:57]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [53:01]
Francis Chan
Unknowingly. But we're after this result and we don't realize. No. You'd actually get greater results once a person knows how much they're loved.
- [53:14]
Lecrae
Yeah. That's what I was going to ask you.
- [53:16]
Francis Chan
It's weird, but it's true.
- [53:18]
Lecrae
How? Like. Like what? Because you said pastors don't even realize.
- [53:24]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [53:25]
Lecrae
They're loved by God.
- [53:26]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [53:26]
Lecrae
And I. And I think, like you said, we. We're coming from a world where it's piety. It's like. Like you do it and it. And like, what are you, like, the tension or I'll say, like the pushback somebody may give you similar to what he was afraid of is. Well, love tells the truth.
- [53:55]
Francis Chan
Yes.
- [53:55]
Lecrae
Love is firm.
- [53:57]
Francis Chan
Totally.
- [53:58]
Lecrae
And I just feel like this is. This sounds seeker sensitive.
- [54:05]
Francis Chan
Totally. Totally. I get it. And one thing I will say is there are times when you don't have peace in your relationship with God. And that's actually a good thing. That's what the holy Spirit is supposed to do in us. So I'm not saying anytime you feel conviction, blow it off, you're loved. Yeah. But I am saying, no, you are loved. But that conviction you feel, praise God for that conviction. Because the Bible says he makes you a slave to righteousness. See, this is something I learned, too, is that Lordship was this thing where I was, like, trying to get it and make him Lord. I didn't realize lordship is actually a free gift. So in other words, God says, I'll actually come into you and make you want all the things that I want. I was like, seriously? Because I know where my sin will lead me. It'll lead me to death. And I believe your commands will lead me to life. So you're telling me you'll enter into me and make me desire the things that lead me to life, and all for free. You'll come in as king, as Lord. Come in, come in. Get me on that path. I want that. Rather than this striving to make him Lord, it's like, no, that's the free gift. He loves me and says, I'll enter into you and make you desire what's right.
- [55:42]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [55:43]
Francis Chan
And make you a slave to righteousness. And so when you feel that lack of peace, praise God. Yeah, I thank God now.
- [55:52]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [55:53]
Francis Chan
I don't feel good about that. Thank you, Lord. That's the Holy Spirit in me. Can't change me.
- [55:59]
Lecrae
Yeah. I think a lot of it, too, is, like, the. The. When I think about my kids, like, and I think about them knowing that they're loved by me, they don't obey out of fear.
- [56:22]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [56:23]
Lecrae
They, like, they're excited to do things because we're collectively excited about it. Like, my son, we. Or not even excited about it, like, because they're like, there's just a loving relationship. My son, the other night, you know, we had a little bit of a back and forth about some stuff, and then he. You know, it felt like he got it, but I didn't know if he got it. It felt like he understood, but I didn't know if he understood. I didn't know if he was a little bit upset about it. I couldn't tell. And then I come in the kitchen, and he's just washing the dishes. Mm. And I'm just like, who told him to do this? No one told him to do this.
- [57:05]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [57:05]
Lecrae
But as we talked the next day, he was like, well, I don't want you to feel like I only do stuff so you approve of it. I just want this to be like, a Relationship. And he didn't use the word relationship, but he was. But essentially what he was trying to articulate was what he didn't say, but what he was trying to say was, I mean, we love each other. And so why wouldn't I just. I'm not going to hold a grudge. I'm just going to go in there and serve. And you cooked. I'll clean. You didn't ask me to. And I guess the bigger point I think of in that is that you do the right things because you're loved. Not to earn love. Yeah, that's a foreign concept.
- [57:58]
Francis Chan
It is. So. But I, you know, we, we start to see it in our kids, like, where it's not fear anymore. Right, right. You're getting, Your kids are starting to get to that adult age.
- [58:11]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [58:11]
Francis Chan
You know, mine are already having kids and everything else. And, you know, there's. There's no fear, there's. There's no authority. And yet three of my kids so far have said, you know, dad, I trust you to pick my spouse for me. Like, like, yeah, like my two oldest daughters. And my son just recently was like, yeah, I trust dad to find me a girl, pick me a girl. Like, like, it's not, it's like there's this trust.
- [58:44]
Lecrae
So you had an arranged marriage?
- [58:45]
Francis Chan
I, I kind of did with my first one. Not, not really. But I met this guy that was in our ministry and I'm like, I am blown away by this guy. And I remember my wife going, gosh, it's like you have a crush on him. I go, I do. Like, his walk with the Lord is amazing. And I prayed. I was like, lord, you have answered me in so many ways through life. You've always given me what I wanted. I was like, I see it in scripture, you know, with Jacob and Isaac. And I go, this guy Justin, can I have him as a son in law? Can you make him meet my daughter, fall in love? And I prayed that prayer. They didn't even know each other. They were married within the year.
- [59:39]
Lecrae
Write that down.
- [59:40]
Francis Chan
It was crazy. And now they've got three kids. And I, I mean, it's. It's one of those things where it was beyond anything I ever would have dreamt because, you know, I always think no one's good enough for my little girl.
- [59:55]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [59:55]
Francis Chan
You know, and then I meet this guy and I'm like, oh, he's good. Good enough. And she better say yes, you know, but I, and I, I, you know, and I. He called one day, asked if he could borrow it, you know, one of my saws or whatever. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I go, I'm not home, but my daughter is. And. And I call my daughter, honey, someone's coming over right now. Trust your father. Look your best. Play with your hair. Do whatever you need to do. This is a good guy. And so, you know, he knocks on the door, and she's like, hi. Who are you? You know, whatever. What are you doing here? Oh, your dad said I could borrow a son. She goes, oh, okay, sorry, I just woke up, you know, and she's looking great, you know, but, you know, the whole thing, and it's just. It's amazing. But that's the relationship I have with my kids. Like, they know I love them. They know I would do anything for them. And like, I asked earlier if any of them were insecure, I would do everything to make that right. I've got to prove it to them somehow. I've got to convince them. And that's what I believe God is doing right now in heaven. I believe he's even right now going, lecrae, what do I need to do to have you completely secure? Look at everything I've done for you. But there is a miracle that I want to pray for for you, like God. I want that. That. Ephesians 3. I want that. Not that you're pretty sure he loves you, but you know how wide and long and high and deep, and, you know the love of Christ, which is beyond comprehension. Like, that's what I want for you. That's what I want for everyone in the church.
- [61:58]
Lecrae
My first thought, unfortunately, when you said that was, I'm a worm God, that's so sad, isn't it? That's so sad. It's like, he loves you. And I'm like, oh, no. But I'm like, no. And the funny thing, you bring this up, what I see consistently, too, now, especially with the younger generation in the church, is it's wrecked and wracked by fear. Wrecked with fear and superstition. And. And if I don't do this, then this is gonna happen, and this is gonna happen, and that's gonna happen. And I'm like, oh, they don't know love. Yeah, because there's so much fear. There's so much fear in, like. I mean, I think I wrestled with more legalism. It was more like, I gotta earn God's love. But I think at least when I talk to my kids and I have conversations with them on their spiritual journeys, they get so much information on the Internet. And so much of it's not verifiable, you know, to be a speaker here, someone there. And they're just like, well, they said this and they said this, and they said. And I said, God does not give you a spirit of fear. And I. And I like, he loves you, but I'm saying it. But I'm like, man, I'm sitting here listening to you, and I'm like, God, I need to believe this.
- [63:24]
Francis Chan
Yes. Yes. It's really. No, seriously. But there is. I. I grab my Bible real quick. There's.
- [63:31]
Lecrae
Well, Francis, pulling out the Bible now.
- [63:33]
Francis Chan
I know it took me a long time, Pastor. I am. But my daughter actually pointed this passage out to me the other day about fear. Because obviously, fear is not a bad thing. Yeah, the fear of the Lord's the beginning of wisdom. We gotta, you know, we work our salvation with fear and trembling. But I saw this passage when my daughter pointed it out the other day. I was like, wow, I missed this. How many times have I read this? I never got it. Jeremiah 32, 38 says this. They shall be my people. I will be their God. I will give them one heart and one way that they may fear me forever. For their own good and for the good of their children after them, I will make with them an everlasting covenant that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts that they may not turn from me. I thought, whoa, like, this is a good thing. Like, he goes, this is what I'm going to do one day. You know, he's telling Jeremiah, I'm going to put the fear of me in their hearts so they can't turn away from me. It'll be for their good and the good of their children. So there's a fear that's good.
- [64:56]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [64:56]
Francis Chan
And when I read that, I go, that's it. Even when I wasn't, I'm very grateful that I have a fear of God.
- [65:04]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [65:04]
Francis Chan
I think people have heard me teach for the last 30 years, no, this guy has a fear of God. And now I'm realizing that's what's kept me from ever straying. Because even when I'm not feeling it, I still know who he is, and that's in my heart. And like I said, I think right now he just gave me that breath that could be my last breath. And then I'm going to see him. Like, this is the way I live my life. And I've done that for 30 something years. And I go, oh, it's because he put the fear of God in my heart for my good. So I can't turn from him. That doesn't mean I don't sin, but.
- [65:50]
Podcast Host
I can't stay in it.
- [65:52]
Francis Chan
There's this fear that's at the core of me. And you can't teach that to someone.
- [65:58]
Lecrae
Sure.
- [65:59]
Francis Chan
God puts that. He puts it in your heart just like he puts the love in your heart. And when you can marry those two things, when you can come before God, and this is when I pray, I go, God, every day, can you just remind me that you are holy and you love me? Can that just center who I am? Because if I wake up every day and go, there's a holy God up there and he is crazy about me, those two truths, if that's deep in my heart, yeah, I'm good.
- [66:42]
Lecrae
That's strong.
- [66:43]
Francis Chan
Anything can happen. And I'm okay. Because the fear of God and the love of God are in my heart. And that is something he has to do. So in church, you know, churches are often like behavior modification. Don't do this anymore. Don't do that. You know, the. Whatever. We're trying to talk people into it, but when the miracle happens inside of you, you can't leave them, you know?
- [67:10]
Lecrae
That's good. Sorry, I'm over here.
- [67:11]
Francis Chan
Oh, no, no, no.
- [67:12]
Lecrae
That's choking on the love of God.
- [67:14]
Francis Chan
That's good. That's good. But that's. That's what we want for everyone.
- [67:20]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [67:20]
Francis Chan
And only God can do that.
- [67:27]
Lecrae
It's funny because now I'm just backtracking and thinking, like, your perspective now. Refreshing. Beautiful. I remember us being in Atlanta. Golly. Maybe. I don't know. I don't even know how long ago was. Had to be. It's at least 10 years.
- [67:50]
Francis Chan
Yeah. Yeah.
- [67:50]
Lecrae
At least.
- [67:51]
Francis Chan
Easily. Yeah.
- [67:52]
Lecrae
And we're. We're at a conference, and I mean, you know, people are singing and cheering.
- [68:01]
Francis Chan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [68:02]
Lecrae
And I remember you saying, this is great. This is awesome. But there are billions of people out there who are not in ears singing and cheering. And I felt like you. You helped me in that moment. 1. To see bigger.
- [68:27]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [68:27]
Lecrae
To see, like, beyond just this. It was kind of like. I think I was living in this, like, Christian bubble of just like, oh, yeah, this is it. This. This is heaven on earth.
- [68:38]
Francis Chan
We're here.
- [68:39]
Lecrae
And it was like. But I knew I wanted to see beyond that. And in that moment, it was, like, helpful. It was almost like I felt. I was wrestling with it a little bit, but then I felt like, yes, it's more. I didn't know how to put my finger on it.
- [68:53]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [68:55]
Lecrae
And I saw beyond that in that moment, and I'm just curious. Like, I guess in that time period, you helped me to feel like, oh, wait, we don't have this figured out. And I was okay with not having it figured out. Like, I don't have this figured out. And I'm just curious now. Like, in hindsight, this. This kind of new perspective, it's like. What do you say to you then? Do you say, like, oh, I don't have it all?
- [69:28]
Francis Chan
Yeah. You know, just like I said, it's interesting how I feel like, sanctification, my holiness has grown because I know the love of God, my desire to do ministry, love on people, get the word out, is greater now. Mm. After knowing the love, now I'm starting to understand, wow. The love of Christ compels me. I'm just. Yesterday, I was praying to God, I go, God, I really want to do something, but it's not guilt or to prove anything or I have to do something. It's just like, God, I love when feel like it's you and me and we're doing something, and it's in conjunction with each other, and so whatever. If it's painful, it's painful, but it's with you, it's. It's different.
- [70:26]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [70:26]
Francis Chan
I don't know how to explain it, but. So I. I made my kids watch this movie I saw on the plane a couple months ago. Have you watched One Life?
- [70:36]
Lecrae
I don't know.
- [70:36]
Francis Chan
Anthony Hopkins, old guy. Just. He's an old guy. But it. You gotta watch it.
- [70:42]
Lecrae
I've seen it.
- [70:43]
Francis Chan
Yeah, but, you know, he's, like, rescuing these kids. It's during Nazi Germany. Okay. You know, Czechoslovakia. Trying to get the people in England to adopt them. Just. But he's just his old man looking back, and it's a. I won't ruin. It's.
- [70:57]
Lecrae
I was gonna say, wow, you're gonna ruin it for me.
- [70:58]
Francis Chan
No, no, no, no. The ending is.
- [71:00]
Lecrae
I like Anthony Hopkins.
- [71:01]
Francis Chan
Awesome. Oh, yeah. It's powerful. Only movie I've ever cried at, really. The Christ. Yes. I was on the plane, you know, but then afterwards, I'm just pumped like, God, Yes. That's what I want to do with my life. I. It was just motivating, you know, so it's not like, oh, that was Francis the Radical back then. And now that he's found the love of Christ, he just sits on a mountain and enjoys him. You know, it's. No, it's Just different. Like, I enjoy being used by him more than ever. I enjoy God more than ever. And it's knowing that I'm loved by him. It's. It's the best. And now it's, you know, you realize, well, why are people not so attracted to the church? It's like, wow, because it's filled with a lot of insecurity, and you're not. You're not seeing a lot of love. But maybe this lack of love one another is because we don't really know that we're loved by Him.
- [72:14]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [72:15]
Francis Chan
And even you look on the Internet, you know, whoever's most popular, whatever, you know, Christian shows or all these, like, different. I'm the only one that has a truth type of channels. And you. Oh, gosh, do they seem like they're just basking in the love of Christ and they're saying these things? Because they so love all these people. But I think that can change. I think God is changing that. I think there's a new generation that is wanting just to know deeply that they're loved by God. Yeah, they want that fear of God in their hearts, and they want that love of Christ deep in their hearts and to where they don't have to be coerced into doing things. But it's like, I don't know what else that verse, the love of Christ compels me in the. I think it's called the English Standard Bible, says the love of Christ leaves me no choice. Like, I'm so loved by him that it's like, it's just the natural thing to do is go tell everyone. It's not a guilt thing, a force thing. So, yeah, it's so spend the best season of my life.
- [73:44]
Lecrae
When you hear the verse, you know, in the scripture, where they'll know us by our love, does it mean. Does it hit different?
- [73:56]
Francis Chan
Oh, yeah, yeah. It's. It's. It's just. No, it's no longer a job to me. And it's almost like I have different eyes. Like, if we did this interview 10 years ago, she's like, yeah, I'd just be talking, talking, talking, but not feeling anything for you. So, like, when you talked about that period you went through in 2015 or whatever, 2018, I'm just like. And I'm picturing God right now just loving you and wanting you to know that you're loved by Him. Like, I seriously. I mean, I don't mean that just because we're on a podcast. Like, I feel for you. I care about you, and I Don't know that. That. But it's not like I disliked you, you know, before. It's just. I wasn't really love. I liked you. I'm glad we're on the same team. I'm glad we got through these events together, you know, it was fun. It was good. But it would have been a stretch to say that I genuinely loved you. I would have said it just because it's the right thing to say.
- [75:21]
Lecrae
But I don't know if God loved you, so.
- [75:25]
Francis Chan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. It just. It's. It's different now.
- [75:29]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [75:29]
Francis Chan
Like, I care about. I care less who's watching this or whatever. I'm thinking about your soul and go, no, I seriously want you just so secure and waking up in the morning, like, just fired up, like, I can't believe you love me. This is the best. Like, I want you to wake up like that. I want you to go to bed tonight. And you're laying there, I don't know if you ever. You know, when your kids were young, you just look at them while they're sleeping. And I want you to believe, like, gosh, if that's what I felt with my kids, how it's God looking at me right now in my bed, that's perspective. It's beyond that. Like, I want that for you because that would change every. That's a. That's a game changer. That's life changing.
- [76:17]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [76:17]
Francis Chan
And I want that for everyone listening, like, for. And the enemy is going to do everything he can to get in your head. No, he doesn't love you. He loves Francis because, you know, because of this or that. He didn't screw up like this. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. He kind of. And this something I told our elders one day because someone was writing some nasty things about us that we knew were not true. And I go, you guys have to remember that you didn't just give your body over to Christ when you became believer. You gave him your mind. So this mind belongs to Jesus. Your mind. You're not free to just dwell on whatever you want to dwell on. So these lies that people wrote about you, you don't have the freedom to meditate on that, not with the mind of Christ. And it was a new revelation to me. Like, we're not allowed to dwell on that. He commanded me, whatever's true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, excellent praise, let your mind dwell on these things. And it's like, oh, that's right. This doesn't belong to me. So I'm not allowed to think about even my own sins or whatever, or, you know, that's not praiseworthy. That's not excellent.
- [77:45]
Lecrae
That is. That is the social media soundbite of the Century. Everyone needs to know that.
- [77:51]
Francis Chan
Yes. To replay those things that my dad said to me. This. This mind doesn't belong to me. And God says, I got to fill up with these things. So when the enemy gets in your head, that's what it means to take the thoughts captive, the doubts. When you. The moment you start going, I'm not sure if he thought, wait a second, wait a second. I can't dwell on that. He is love. He's abounding in steadfast love as as high as the heavens are above the earth. So great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him. I know I fear him. So he has this abounding, steadfast love on me. I'm going to dwell on that.
- [78:33]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [78:33]
Francis Chan
I'm going to meditate on that.
- [78:35]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [78:35]
Francis Chan
Because this is his mind. I was bought with a price. That means my body is his and my mind is his. So I'm going to dwell on his love for me. I'm going to meditate on it. And for guys like me, and probably for you, I. It's hard to just meditate on his love because I want to fix something. I want to accomplish something. What is meditating on his love going to do? And yet he commands me to do that.
- [79:05]
Lecrae
Yeah. And it's like, I would have never done it had I not been mentally disabled.
- [79:15]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [79:15]
Lecrae
I would have never. Like, I needed to know he loved me because I couldn't fix anything. I couldn't fix myself. So. And now, even in a healthier state, I'm like, even. Even as we're having this conversation, I'm thinking, okay, Lord, I think sometimes you keep me at a place where I'm dependent upon you so that I will reflect on your love for me.
- [79:39]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [79:40]
Lecrae
Yeah. We could talk about this for two.
- [79:44]
Francis Chan
More hours, but this is the only thing worth talking about anymore. Like, to think, right, right now, you and I, what God wants us to believe and to know is, he's in heaven, yet somehow he's right here. You know, that. That hits me, that Revelation 3, when he goes, I'm knocking at the door. I want to eat with you guys.
- [80:07]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [80:08]
Francis Chan
I don't want you guys doing a podcast about me without, like, recognizing, I'm right here with you guys. You're my boys. I love you so much. You're beloved. You're the disciples that I love. You're my children that I love. And for us to sit here like, that's the greatest truth in the world. That is the best news in the world. I don't really care about anything else right now. Say that to me again. God. Oh, I love you. Love you, Lecrae. I love you, Francis. You're mine. You're my children. I'm gonna go prepare a place for you. I got you. I love you. No. You don't even know how. What, you think you love your kids. That's. That's cute compared to what I feel about you. Because you, too, believe that my son died for you. You. You actually want him to be the king of this earth. You actually want and love his commands. And you know what? And I love you guys and. All right, now let me go to bed thinking that same thing. Let me wake up thinking that same thing. Let me just go through life like that.
- [81:33]
Lecrae
That's great. I. I'm genuinely smiling. I'm genuinely grateful. And I'm challenged to, like, meditate.
- [81:44]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [81:45]
Lecrae
On his love.
- [81:45]
Francis Chan
Yeah.
- [81:46]
Lecrae
So I. I can't thank you enough. I, like, all the questions I had are pretty much out the window because I'm like, nah, this is what the Lord wanted us to discuss. And I. And I, we prayed that before we started. And I'm, like, grateful. Is there anything before we go like, that you need people to know or.
- [82:10]
Francis Chan
I think. I think it's identity. It's, like, really think about. I remember my youth pastor told us one day, write down this. When I was in high school, what you'd want written on your tombstone, like, what you want to be remembered for. And all through life would have been something different. And now it's like, I'm finally at the point where it's like, I want to be known as the beloved. Not for anything I've done, but for everything he's done. I just want to be secure. I want everyone to know that Francis Chan was an absolute loser, that my college years were a wreck. My start in ministry was disaster, Hypocritical, sinful. I mean, at 22, 23 years old, I was like, it's over. And God poured his grace on me. And that's the only reason anything good has come out of my life. And I'm loved by him. I don't want to be known as the fear of God guy or the house church guy or the communion guy or the great speaker or this. That I really want to be. I want Everyone to know I am loved by God and I want to be his. That's all. I want to be known as his beloved. And. And it. It hit me that when God introduced Jesus to the world at his baptism, what did he say?
- [83:57]
Lecrae
This is my beloved son.
- [84:00]
Francis Chan
Wow. This is my son, whom I love.
- [84:03]
Lecrae
That's good.
- [84:04]
Francis Chan
In him, I find. What did he say at the transfiguration? Voice from the cloud. This is my son, whom I love. That's good enough for Jesus. And so I'm sure it was fine. All the cray. He's the one that won the Grammys, the one that did this, this, this. He's the one that did. Exactly. Compared to being loved by God. Now I'm starting to understand what the Apostle Paul was saying. That's all. Cr. That's rubbish.
- [84:40]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [84:40]
Francis Chan
Compared with surpassing value knowing, it's really good.
- [84:46]
Lecrae
Yacht, I want to reiterate something that you said, just for those listening, that this is. It's a supernatural occurrence.
- [84:56]
Francis Chan
Yes.
- [84:56]
Lecrae
Because even I had to tell myself, I was like, I'm gonna go home and I'm gonna meditate on the love of God. And I was like, no. I'm gonna pray and ask God to fill me.
- [85:07]
Francis Chan
Yes.
- [85:07]
Lecrae
And I'm going to continue.
- [85:10]
Francis Chan
Yes.
- [85:11]
Lecrae
Trying to meditate on his love.
- [85:12]
Francis Chan
Yes.
- [85:13]
Lecrae
As I'm asking for him to do that work in my own heart.
- [85:16]
Francis Chan
Yes.
- [85:17]
Lecrae
Yes.
- [85:18]
Francis Chan
Awesome.
- [85:19]
Lecrae
Brother Francis, I appreciate you.
- [85:21]
Francis Chan
Oh, this was good. So good. I'm glad it came out.
- [85:24]
Lecrae
Me too. Thank you, man.
- [85:28]
Podcast Host
Thanks for listening to the Question. Crazy Love podcast. For more on this theme of discovering your identity as a child of God, check out Francis Chan's new book, Beloved, available now wherever books are sold. Learn how to rest in the love that changes everything. For more information, go to crazylove.org beloved.
- [85:55]
Francis Chan
Sam.