The Power of Discipleship | Francis Chan

Summary

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Crazy Love Podcast: The Power of Discipleship | Francis Chan

Episode Date: December 16, 2025
Guest: Francis Chan
Host: Crazy Love Ministries
Main Theme: Rediscovering authentic discipleship—less platform, more life-on-life transformation

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Episode Overview

In this rich, heartfelt episode, Francis Chan shares what true discipleship really looks like, drawing both from biblical insight and decades of personal experience. Chan argues that real impact is not found in gaining a large following or “going viral,” but in becoming someone worth following—someone who genuinely reflects Jesus.

He unpacks the often-overlooked power of mentorship, vulnerability, and multigenerational relationships, discussing why our culture’s fixation on popularity is stunting Kingdom growth. Francis shares moving stories from his own life, issues a compelling challenge to both young and old listeners, and reinstates the beauty of humble, relational disciple-making in the church.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Discipleship > Celebrity Christianity

• Discipleship is not about numbers or spectacle
  • Instead of focusing on mega events, Francis urges listeners to invest deeply in a few (00:34–01:35).
• The temptation of flash and fame
  • Today's culture celebrates online influence and platform-building, but it rarely produces genuine life change (00:49–01:35, 10:03–10:54).

“It’s a lot easier to make a video than it is to make a disciple.” — Francis Chan [10:03]

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2. Personal Stories of Life-Changing Discipleship

• Francis’ own journey of being discipled
  • Youth pastor Stan Lubeck changed his life through persistent, intimate mentorship—meeting every week for years (01:00–02:54).
  • Stan, though little-known, remains faithful and fruit-bearing 45 years later.

“His name is Stan Lubeck. You’ve never heard of him… but you wouldn't have… He got the job done and survived.” — Francis Chan [01:53]

• Hospitality as discipleship: The impact of Mike and Vicky Otto
  • After high school, a newlywed couple took Francis in, transforming his understanding of family and love (02:54–04:08).
  • This practice inspired Francis and his wife to open their own home for decades, impacting over 50 people—whose ripple effects continue multiplying (04:43–05:24).

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3. Living Out Discipleship: Deep Community, Not Occasional Meetings

• Discipleship means vulnerability and real-life access
  • Letting people into your home, rhythms, and struggles is at the core (05:24–06:48).
• A vision for communal living: Chan describes his current, open, multi-family housing situation as “the best living situation ever... nonstop community, nonstop evangelism.” [05:48–06:56]

“When my wife and I look back… the people I really impacted were the people that lived with me.” — Francis Chan [07:07]

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4. ‘Imitate Me As I Imitate Christ’: Biblically-Grounded Discipleship

• Deep impact over broad influence:
  • Referencing 1 Cor 11:1, Chan stresses that discipleship flows from actually modeling Christ—letting others closely observe your real life (08:00–09:40).
• Our primary goal is to look more like Jesus, year after year.
  • Francis asks: “Are you more like Jesus than you were last year?” (00:05, 09:40–10:03)

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5. The Generation Gap & Multigenerational Faithfulness

• Older leaders must invest in the next generation.
  • Drawing from Numbers 8:23–26, Chan highlights the biblical pattern of older leaders stepping out of the spotlight to “guard” and empower younger ones (20:21–24:00).
• The Ron Wilson example:
  • Francis recounts how Ron Wilson supported him as a young church planter—not by dominating, but by counseling and backing him up (25:19–26:31).
  • Ron’s selfless wisdom: He accepted a staff role only after Francis promised to fire him when he was no longer the best man for the job—for the good of God’s kingdom, not out of loyalty (36:27–38:53).

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6. Overcoming Cultural Obstacles

• Today’s focus on success and achievement is misplaced.
  • The church too often values charisma, “bigness,” and reputation over true godly character (13:15–15:55; 20:07–20:21).
• Younger leaders need mentorship, not isolation.
  • Both generations must humble themselves: older saints stepping back to empower, and younger leaders seeking guidance and accountability (28:42–36:10, 48:52–50:00).

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7. Practical Applications and Final Challenges

• Are you building your brand… or lighting other candles?
  • Francis uses the metaphor of passing a flame: our goal is not for people to look at us, but for us to ignite lasting light in others (30:00–31:33).
• If you feel unqualified, or if your home/family isn’t ‘ready’—it’s not too late.
  • The Holy Spirit can bring real transformation at any stage. Vulnerability and humility are required (45:48–48:52).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Do I want to reproduce myself?” — Francis Chan [13:48]
• “If the whole youth group was just like you, what would our youth group be like?” — Advice from Stan Lubeck, Francis’ youth pastor [16:29]
• “We have to exemplify this to the next generation … not just talk about it, preach it, but you have to make disciples, let people into your life.” — Francis Chan [07:32]
• “Too many guys my age are like, ‘look at me, look at me.’ And it’s like, no, you should be making disciples. You should be guarding the next generation.” [30:45]
• “Some of the pastors are the most stressed out, anxious, insecure… you name it. And then you’re the leader. Follow my example!” [15:59]
• “If you leave us alone, we’re going to blow it. Would you please walk alongside of me?” — Francis Chan on what the younger generation should be saying to older leaders [50:00]
• “As parents, we gotta kill that whole notion of, I want my kids to hold on to my faith. No, you want them to go way beyond your faith… It’s that Elijah to Elisha: ‘I want a double portion.’” [45:48–46:11]

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Important Timestamps

• 00:34–01:35: Chan describes his youth pastor’s example of discipleship
• 02:54–04:08: The Ottos’ hospitality & its generational impact
• 05:48–06:56: Current communal discipleship living situation
• 08:00–09:40: Scriptural foundation—’Imitate me as I imitate Christ’
• 13:15–15:55: Dangers of ambition and misplaced focus in church culture
• 20:21–24:00: Numbers 8—biblical model of elder mentorship
• 25:19–26:31: How Ron Wilson supported Francis as a young leader
• 36:27–38:53: Ron Wilson’s “promise to fire,” putting the kingdom first
• 48:52–50:00: Both generations need humility and each other
• 45:48–46:11: Call for generational growth—“double portion” mentality

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Conclusion: A Call to Real Discipleship

Francis Chan closes with a passionate exhortation for the church to abandon the race for celebrity and reclaim the quiet, powerful way of Jesus: making disciples by inviting others into our actual lives, being worthy imitators, and building up the next generation. He reminds listeners that transformation is always possible through the Holy Spirit, and that both young and old must walk together in humility for the sake of Christ’s bride.

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For more resources or to connect with Crazy Love Ministries, visit crazylove.org.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

Welcome to the Crazy Love Podcast. Are you more like Jesus than you were last year? Today, Francis explains that if we want to have an impact on the world, we should think less about gaining a following and more about becoming the type of person worth following. He shares how true discipleship isn't flashy, but it has the power to change lives and spark exponential growth for the kingdom.

[Francis Chan]

I'm. I'm really excited about this topic of discipleship and mentoring, especially as it pertains to the sin, because I. You know, we live in a time when the big events are the big deal, right?

[Andy]

Like, oh, my gosh, they had 30,000 or 50,000 or a hundred thousand.

[Francis Chan]

And to me, it's like, yeah, it's.

[Andy]

Fine, you know, but what really happened?

[Francis Chan]

And I just know that my life was changed because I was in high school. A friend invited me to a youth group. I met the youth pastor. I heard the gospel for the first time. He explained what discipleship was and said, would you like to meet with me? And I met with him every week from my sophomore year in high school through my sophomore year in junior college.

[Andy]

Four years every week.

[Francis Chan]

He eventually got fired because he was spending so much time discipling a small group of guys, and they wanted the big youth group. And it wasn't growing. It couldn't get beyond 80 people or whatever it was. But he was committed to spending time with a guy like me. I had no parents. I had nothing in life. And this guy pours into me, and we're still in. He's still alive, which is crazy, but, you know, still walking with the Lord, still faithful, still doing ministry, still mentoring people, still beating the drum of discipleship. His name is Stan Lubeck. You've never heard of him, never will. Well, but you wouldn't have. It's just he wasn't like this awesome speaker that's going to get in front of crowds. But he got the job done, and he survived. And he's still walking with the lord. You know, 45 years later, from the time I've met him, he's still an example to me. How many people can say that? And at the end of your life, you look back and he.

[Andy]

I hope he look, I know he.

[Francis Chan]

Looks at my life and goes, well, I'm glad to put my time into that guy. You know, I remember being 18, and I had nowhere to live. And a couple in the youth group, you know, a couple of the youth group leaders, Mike and Vicky Otto, said, hey, why don't you come live with us? They'd only Been married like, a little over a year, you know, had a baby girl. And back then, that was a weird. It's still a weird thing to do, invite a stranger to live in your home. But that year with them completely changed my view of family.

[Andy]

I'd never been.

[Francis Chan]

I'd never seen a couple that loved each other. I never, you know, saw a husband thanking his wife for cooking dinner.

[Andy]

You know, the way he would treat.

[Francis Chan]

Her, you know, even when she was a little, you know, sketchy, you know, his patience and everything else. I'm like, dang.

[Andy]

And he was like this. You know, he had won the College World Series.

[Francis Chan]

He was his pitcher, you know, Pepperdine.

[Andy]

And, you know, so he was like.

[Francis Chan]

The stud athlete that I looked up to, too. And, I don't know, after I got married, I just kept thinking, how. What would Mike do? How would Mike treat this? How would he.

[Andy]

This is the stuff. And so I told my wife, before.

[Francis Chan]

We get married, I go, look, I'm going to have people live with us because it changed me. And I wouldn't be who I am had these people not opened their home. And so we've always had people living with us. We just had our 31st or 32nd year anniversary, and we just. Yeah, but on our anniversary, we're just trying to list. Because we don't even remember everyone that lived with us, and we're trying to.

[Andy]

Just come up with a list of.

[Francis Chan]

Names and where are they now? And this. And we had over 50 people over.

[Andy]

The years, and now they. You know, many of them have let people live in their home and they've.

[Francis Chan]

Adopted foster kids, too.

[Andy]

And I'm just thinking all the way back to Mike, you know, who let me. And then he kept doing that. You look at that discipleship train and. And how many hundreds of people, I mean, possibly thousands, you know, go down that tree and I'm a part of it. And then the 50 people that we had, and then the numbers that they've had, I mean, that's everything that I.

[Francis Chan]

Believe the Kingdom of God is supposed to be about, is that we make disciples of all nations.

[Andy]

Which doesn't just mean you meet at.

[Francis Chan]

Starbucks, you know, here and there and.

[Andy]

Go through a study.

[Francis Chan]

But. But, like, they know your life. They live with you. They're in your life. They know they're in your home regularly.

[Andy]

Oh, I'm in the coolest living situation.

[Francis Chan]

I've ever been in right now, by the way. I never really told anyone. So I'm in this house. And we bought up these five houses, like Me and my friends, the elders. And right on the corner, we're surrounded by, you know, know all these low income apartments and studios. And we took down our, our backyard fences and built like a soccer field and a basketball court for the neighbor kids. And I just moved in like two months ago, but I'm in there like blown away. Like, this is the greatest living situation ever. I'm in community with people. Our kids are never in the homes, always out playing, not on screens, which I love. Like, I hardly ever see my youngest son. He's just always out there playing soccer or basketball. And it's like non stop community with non stop evangelism. And it's just like, this is life.

[Andy]

We're living life together, we're in close proximity, we're raising each other's kids along.

[Francis Chan]

With the neighbor kids. It's like, ah, dream. It's, it's just, it's the best. So when it comes to discipleship.

[Podcast Host]

I.

[Francis Chan]

Feel like people don't talk about this a lot anymore. You're not gonna. It doesn't make you Instagram famous to be a disciple maker. This is. Yeah, we have some people living with us. And discipling these three people, it doesn't sound like a big deal. But now at my age, as I look back at life, the people I really impacted were the people that live with me. And sure, you can listen to my sermons and I'll teach the word of God and I'll do so till I die, but that's really not what has changed lives. When my wife and I look back, you know, at our anniversary, we're looking at this list of names and it's like they're our family. And my kids just have all these brothers and sisters that they'll call brother and sister because they lived with us. And those people are going on to multiply the work. There's thousands of people I've preached to that their lives are a wreck. And because that doesn't do it, it's a time. It's what Stan did in my life, it's what Mike did in my life. And I would just beg you, just as a human being, as a Christian, make disciples. Okay? We've got to, you've got to exemplify this to the next generation. Not just talk about it, preach it, but you have to make disciples, let people into your life. Otherwise they just don't know how to do that with other people. This is what multiplies. And I just don't hear people talking about it. And I probably need to preach on this more, you know. In First Corinthians 11, 1 Paul says, Follow my example as I follow the example of Christ. Okay, that's a. Or be imitators of me as I am of Christ. Super important verse, because you have to look at yourself and go, and am I imitating Christ? Does my life look like Jesus?

[Andy]

This is like the most basic, like, truth that we are supposed to become like Jesus, but somehow the enemy gets us so focused on how to grow this, how to plan this, you know, how to preach, how to do that.

[Francis Chan]

At the end of it, you're like, do I look like Jesus right now?

[Andy]

See, it's a lot easier to make.

[Francis Chan]

A video than it is to make a disciple. It's a lot easier to make a website, become insta famous, become whatever, than.

[Andy]

It is to make a disciple. Because making a disciple means they know your life. I can get the right team together.

[Francis Chan]

And create a viral video. That's not that hard.

[Andy]

You can open a channel and get followers.

[Francis Chan]

There's just all sorts of ways.

[Andy]

You can just do what everyone else does. Do some clickbait stuff like why Francis is a heretic.

[Francis Chan]

Oh, okay, I want to see that. Great, you're famous. Good job.

[Andy]

You know, it's just. But to make a disciple, where someone sees your life and knows your life and says, wow, I'm going to follow his example.

[Francis Chan]

I've seen the way he is with.

[Andy]

His wife, his kids. I've seen him in the home, I've seen him with unbelievers. I've seen him in all these different settings.

[Francis Chan]

I've seen him at work. And that's what I want to be like. That is a. That is what Jesus is after. That's the type of ministry that he wants for us.

[Andy]

I remember.

[Francis Chan]

I was asking a friend about this missionary I knew.

[Andy]

I go, hey, have you ever heard.

[Francis Chan]

Of this guy named Vaughn? And he goes, oh, yeah. He goes, I spent a day with Vaughn and he said this. The day I spent with Vaughn in Mexico was the closest thing I've ever experienced to walking with Jesus. He's.

[Andy]

The whole time I was with him.

[Francis Chan]

I kept thinking, if Jesus was on the earth, this is what it would feel like to walk with him.

[Andy]

He goes, the way he cared for these kids as they're dirty, hungry, and the way that the adults would come and flock to him. And his compassion, his love, his sacrifice, how he was just suffering for these people, to love these people. He goes, I seriously thought to myself, if Jesus was on the earth, this.

[Francis Chan]

Is what it would feel you like to walk with him.

[Andy]

And I remember hearing that and going, God, I want that to be true of me. And sometimes we look up to people like, oh, I want to be on a platform like that. I want to have 2 million followers. I want to have a best selling, this, that, whatever it is. I want the top, I want the giant church, I want the big youth group. And suddenly none of us look like Jesus anymore. Look at all the online personalities right now that are, you know, everyone's following. Do they look like Jesus as you listen to them speak? Does it remind you of the Gospels and of our Savior, who this is, that that's what a disciple might be imitators of me as I am of Christ. We're supposed to follow people who act and speak like Jesus. And that's not what the church is.

[Francis Chan]

Looking up to right now.

[Andy]

It's like, okay, who wrote the coolest song?

[Francis Chan]

Who has the most viral sermons? Who gets the biggest gatherings? Who looks the best?

[Andy]

Who has the most followers?

[Francis Chan]

You guys know this.

[Andy]

And what I'm saying is guard your own heart as a leader, that you don't get these jealousies and selfish ambitions, you know, which the Bible says will.

[Francis Chan]

Lead to every vile practice. I think it's James 3:16, he says, where that exists, it'll lead to every vile practice. And that's where you've got to look at your own heart and go, man, am I jealous of someone? Am I ambitious for something? And it's really for me. I have to look at my own heart, like when I get attacked and go, okay, God, why is this bugging me? Is it, is it because of my reputation or yours? And I mean, the enemy is going to get us aspiring for things that we should not aspire to and, and do it in the name of Christianity. And well, I have to become famous because then I can impact more people. So you must become greater so that he can become greater. You know, it's like, really, is there a way that we can become less so that he can become greater? Is there a way that we can become more like Jesus? There's that other verse in Matthew 23, verse 15, where it says, woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites. You travel across the sea and land to make a single proselyte. And when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. So these guys were making disciples, right? He's saying, wow, that's awesome. You guys are making disciples. And when you make disciples, they become Twice the son of hell you are. And we have to look at that and go, okay, do I want to reproduce myself? Okay, so.

[Andy]

And this is big, you guys, especially.

[Francis Chan]

For people in ministry.

[Andy]

Because we just.

[Francis Chan]

Assume, oh, he's a pastor. Some of the pastors are the most stressed out, anxious, insecure. I don't. You name it, and then you're the leader. Follow my example. That's why it's like, lord, I want to be a guy that is just so close to you and just hungering to become more like Jesus. Because if I'm going to make disciples, this is why. I think this is the reason why a lot of people don't make disciples. Because you're not imitating Christ. You don't have a life that's worthy of following. You actually don't want people in your house to see what your family's really like and what your kids really think about you. Then it's like, what the heck are we doing anymore if we're not imitating Christ and inviting other people into that? Are we becoming Pharisaical? I remember the. My youth pastor. I remember things my youth pastor said. One of the things he used to say was, if the whole youth group was just like you, what would our youth group be like? And I used to think about that, and I'd go, wow, okay, I'm going to start sharing the gospel. Because then our youth group would be huge. And. And I'm gonna walk in. Integrity. Because you start thinking through, like, I gotta look at my. He always was pointing us to look at our lives. So grateful for this man, because this.

[Andy]

Is what we want, right?

[Francis Chan]

At the end of your life, you wanna resemble Jesus. And the enemy has so messed us up that we're aspiring for so much, right? And the things that bother us are not. Oh, you know what bothers me? I'm not more like Jesus than I was last year. I recently asked my congregation, I was like, okay, 20, 26 is coming up, like a year from now. Would you rather have your company be twice as big? You make twice as much money? Or for your pastor, you know, would you rather your church be twice the size it is with twice the budget? Or would you like to be twice as loving than you are right now? How much do you care about your own character? But we're focused on so many things like, okay, this is what I want to do by next year. This is what I want to accomplish by next year. And we're not thinking, who do I want to be a year from now? Is the Goal of my life to be twice as loving, joyful, patient, peaceful. Is it the fruit of the spirit? Is it like, I want to become more like Christ? Because then my disciples will be that, you know, Hebrews 13, it's either 7 or 17. Says something really good. Okay, obey your leaders. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

[Andy]

So you obey these leaders and you look at their lives and you go, are they like Jesus? Yes, they are. Well, then I want to imitate that type of faith. We're following the wrong people.

[Francis Chan]

I get caught up in it, and suddenly we favor people for the wrong reasons and we're following people for the wrong reasons. I mean, we're addicted to success or achievement, not necessarily character. Okay, so there's one other passage I really want us to look at this morning. This is been something I've been convicted about for years now. And it's a season where I'm stewarding this, trying to, desperately trying to. It's Numbers, chapter eight. I believe this is a key for the church in America. I think that us not looking at this pattern and considering this pattern has led to the destruction of many, many churches. And I'll explain why after I read it. Matthew is in the New Testament and Numbers is in the beginning of your Bible. Chapter 8. What number did I say? 23. I can't read my own Bible. I'll read from here.

[Andy]

The Lord spoke to Moses saying, this.

[Francis Chan]

Applies to the Levites. From 25 years old and upward they shall come to do duty in the service of the tent of meeting.

[Andy]

And from the age of 50 years.

[Francis Chan]

They shall withdraw from the duty of the service and serve no more. They minister to their brothers in the tent of meeting by keeping guard, but they shall do no service. Thus shall you do to the Levites in assigning their duties. Weird passage. I'd read, you know, Numbers several times, but never noticed this until eight years ago when I was 50. And I'm reading this and I remember I was in Kona, you know, the ywam base. It just happened to me, my Bible reading for the day. And I was just wrestling with the.

[Andy]

Lord going, because when I was 50.

[Francis Chan]

It'S weird, but I was literally in the best shape of my life. Okay. I was a late bloomer. 50. And like, I mean, I was keeping up with Andy in so many ways. Like, cross. I think I was stronger than you at the time.

[Andy]

And now I. Yeah, not stronger than.

[Francis Chan]

Holly, but stronger than you.

[Andy]

You know, and, but it was like I could run.

[Francis Chan]

I mean I couldn't keep him running.

[Andy]

But like I was pushing up like.

[Francis Chan]

More weight than my whole life.

[Andy]

And so physically I'm like, retire, like maturity going, God, I know so much more than when I was 25. I am so more prepared. I can do so much better than these. Why would you have me retire at 50 if I lived back then? I even told the Lord, I'm so grateful I didn't live back then.

[Francis Chan]

You would have made me retire.

[Andy]

And I have so much energy, so much to give to the kingdom. Why would you have me retire?

[Francis Chan]

And the Lord started revealing things in that passage because it literally bothered me. And he revealed to me, okay, well let's say there's a 25 year old that should be jumping into ministry. And if you wait another 25 years rather than releasing him, he'll be 50 when he starts. And they reminded me, when did you start your church? 26. And there was a 56 year old man who was an elder at a church. And I remember going up to him, he was like the oldest guy I knew at that age. I was like, hey. I go, I'm thinking about starting a church. I know it's weird or whatever, I just want your thoughts on it because you know me. And he says to me, francis, if you start a church, I would follow you. I'm like, seriously, I mean I've been married two weeks and this thought pops in my head and I'm like, I told my wife first and you know, I mean I was nervous cause I'm like, honey, I feel like I'm so star church. I know we never talked about this and that means I wouldn't make any money, but I'll wait tables, I'll do whatever we need to do.

[Podcast Host]

And.

[Francis Chan]

And she goes, no, I'll keep working, I got us. And and she said, I married you because I believed you were going to lead me wherever God wanted us to go. And so if you think we should start church, let's start a church. And then I went to the old guy, Ron Wilson, I'm like, hey, what do you think? And he goes, if you start, I would follow you. Do you know what that does for a 26 year old guy who's never had anyone believe in him? To have your wife look at you and say, I will follow you. And to have an older man who wasn't saying, hey, I'll take over the church, I'll run a church and you watch me. No, he's saying, no, I'll follow you. And he walked with me for years.

[Andy]

Just helping me and going, hey, I.

[Francis Chan]

Don'T know if that's a good idea.

[Andy]

Or beware of this, be careful of this. But always lifted me up as the.

[Francis Chan]

Leader of the church, just supported me.

[Andy]

I go, where would I be without Ron Wilson? Where would I be today? Would I be on a. Would I be sharing? Would I have a life worthy of following?

[Francis Chan]

If Ron didn't walk with me.

[Andy]

He was guarding me. Like this passage says, he wasn't taking.

[Francis Chan]

Over.

[Andy]

And God was just showing me, like, what's the best use of your life at this point? Like, how many of these. Okay, here's the thing. I look at some of the 25 year olds that are jumping in ministry and suddenly are leading this ministry and.

[Francis Chan]

I'm going, they're not going to make it. Seriously.

[Andy]

Because it's harder now than it was when I started.

[Francis Chan]

First of all, back then we didn't.

[Andy]

Have cell phones, we didn't have Internet.

[Francis Chan]

No Internet was just invented. So no one even. I remember my first email wasn't until after I was married and someone showed me, look what you can do now.

[Andy]

You know, I'm like, whoa. You know, it still took like 15, 20 minutes to send it because you.

[Francis Chan]

Had to wait for the modem and everything.

[Andy]

It was a weird, but it was a crazy time. And so no one, even if you didn't like my sermon, you'd have to.

[Francis Chan]

Find me on the street to tell me that.

[Andy]

Seriously, like, that's the way it was. I grew up in a time where we looked people in the eyes and.

[Francis Chan]

We weren't thinking, there's 15 people in my pocket waiting for me and I got to check on them while I talk to you. And my mind wasn't so crazy and scrolling and everything else. Like, it was a different time. And that's why I go, I don't know how these guys are going to make it.

[Andy]

And I grew up in a time.

[Francis Chan]

When my youth pastor never let me preach. Even though in me I thought, I know I can teach. I just feel like I have this gift. No, go stack the chairs, go mop up the floor, go call your freshman guys that you're discipling. You're not preaching, it's not good for you. We just, we didn't make videos and become famous and influence people. I'm going to be an influencer at 18. That's my goal. I want to be an influencer. It's like, oh, I hope you don't influence anyone.

[Andy]

You know, it's, it's just one of those. But we knew that back then. Like, no, you don't just jump on a stage that'll kill you and it'll hurt the people that have to listen to you. Like, you've got to grow in your maturity.

[Francis Chan]

Like, I had mentors who did that for me. And I'm so grateful that even when I did hit that 25 year old age, that an older man who just walked alongside of me and God's saying, look, all those guys that you see that are going to fail and probably will, but what if you walked alongside of them? What if you weren't so busy doing your own thing and followed this pattern and poured your life into four or five guys who have their whole life ahead of them. See, there's this old African, I think it's African proverb where a guy walks in with these candles, these two candles, and he says, this is me and my son. And everyone assumes, oh, there you, you know, there's you, the big guy, and there's your son. Like, no, this is me. I've spent most of my life, I'm towards the end.

[Andy]

So what should I do now? Put myself on a pedestal and say, no, I'm the light to the world? Everyone look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me till I burn out. Just watch me. Is that what God wants me to do with the rest of my life? Or does he want me to light the candle of my son and go, dude, you've got like all these years ahead of you. You're gonna be a light on this earth for years. And if I can be a part of just lighting a few of these young candles, there's the multiplication of light.

[Francis Chan]

For years to come. But too many guys my age are like, look at me, look at me. And it's like, no, you should be making disciples. You should be guarding the next generation. This is what I'm devoting my life to. And how many older guys refuse to pass it on and then to just walk alongside? And so then you have these young guys that are starting their own ministries and they're not going to make it. Not because they're, you know, weak or whatever else. Because you're so busy with your own ministry, you won't pour your life into this guy and be dedicated to his success. That's the pattern you see in Numbers 8.

[Andy]

God's concern was that sacred worship would continue from generation to generation. Like it was, you read all through the Old Testament. And it's always, oh, that song we sing.

[Francis Chan]

And they're children and their children.

[Andy]

It's always like this ongoing blessing, right?

[Francis Chan]

And but we're so fixated on ourselves. We're not thinking about the future after us and we're not thinking about. I just want the next generation to be even more sacred in worship. And so I'm going to pour into them. And I'll admit there are times when I get bothered by some of the things the young generation's doing and I think it's going to lead to destruction. But it's like, well, what are you doing about that? It doesn't mean you go on the Internet and rant about it. It's just like, let me take some younger guys under my wing and let me just drop the things I was doing. It's funny because I'll look at these 25 year olds and go, they're not ready. And then I'll forget, oh Yeah, I was 25 when I started and I wasn't ready. My oldest daughter, I have five daughters, two sons. My oldest daughter, you know, they each have their different personalities. She was just like boy crazy all the time. So there are guys just constantly coming into my house. But she had a lot of respect for dad and she always wanted my opinion. And I remember she was off in a Bible college and brought home a Christian boy and spent a couple days with him. You know, he was hanging around. And then afterwards, my daughter's like, hey, so what do you think of this guy? I'm like, no. I go, he's not the one. And she makes a statement. She goes, dad, hold on. Are you comparing him to you now or to you when you were 18?

[Andy]

I was like, dang, that was good. That was so good. And I tried to think, I'm like, okay, when I was 18, in my mind, I'm like, I was way more.

[Francis Chan]

Mature than this clown, you know, and.

[Andy]

But then when I really thought about.

[Francis Chan]

It, I'm like, I think he's doing better than I was.

[Andy]

I mean, it was such a great statement.

[Francis Chan]

And I'm like, all right, you're right. I was a little hard on him. He's fine, you know, but still, he's not the one.

[Andy]

But isn't that what we do, you know, with ministry?

[Francis Chan]

I realized that's what I do in ministry. I look at a 25 year old, like, he's not ready. And then I don't think, what was I like at 25? That was crazy. I was just pulling my life together.

[Andy]

And I would have Made so many mistakes if I didn't have that older.

[Francis Chan]

Guy next to me.

[Andy]

See, this is where the multi generational thing, you can't blame the 25 year old for being 25 and not knowing what you know at 50, they can't know it. They can't understand the ramifications and the consequences.

[Francis Chan]

25 years down the road, you know, Andy's son Asher was, you know, driving me over here and just asking me about, you know, relationships and marriage and everything else. And, and in the car I was just telling him, look, you can make mistakes right now that you will regret 30 years from now. You'll still remember them. So don't do it. You can't know.

[Andy]

How is it, you know, 25 year old kid going to know?

[Francis Chan]

I don't even know if he's even 25 yet. 21, okay, wow. He doesn't know anything.

[Andy]

So it's like, how is he supposed to know what he'll be thinking at 58? And what is going to stick with.

[Francis Chan]

You unless someone's walking with you and go, look, I've been through it, I've seen this. Okay, here's a great thing.

[Andy]

Okay? Probably the wisest thing I've heard anyone in my life say was by that.

[Francis Chan]

Guy, Ron Wilson, the old guy. There was a point when I, we didn't have a men's ministry director. This is when that big church and everything, and I'm like, hey, Ron, would you work for me right now? We need a men's ministry pastor. And I can't think of anyone who would do a better job than you. And he thought about it for a while and then he came back and said, okay, I will take the position under one condition. I need you to look me in the eyes right now and make a promise. You promise me that when I am no longer the best person for that job you promised me you'll fire me, that you'll put the kingdom above our friendship. He says, no, listen to this. He says, because I've seen what my friends have done. They're older and they don't know that they're actually hurting the church.

[Andy]

Their hearts are fine, they just really don't know. He goes, so I'm going to guess I won't know that day.

[Francis Chan]

When I'm not the best one to lead that group.

[Andy]

And that's why you have to promise me to put the kingdom over our friendship, your loyalty to me. You must fire me. If you promise me that I'll work for you. Is that like the wisest thing You've ever heard. He was so self aware and so understand. There's gonna come a time we don't know. I won't know when, you know, when I'm not the best to do this or this or this. And that was the beautiful thing about the numbers. Ages. And what if you raised 25 year olds going, you got this window, these 25 years and then you're gonna pour into the next generation. So now you're not spending your whole life building your brand, your name, you know what's gonna come to an end and it's time to lift someone else up. Now see, this is, this is what.

[Francis Chan]

We are about at the sand. Okay?

[Andy]

There are some leaders, they're going to.

[Francis Chan]

Be squirrely, they're young, they. But we've got some older guys now that are committed to, okay, but I'm going to walk alongside of them and I'll be honest with them. When they're just all about hype or this or that and they're not really thinking through what does God want? And maybe they've lost the sacredness that was supposed to be passed on. They don't have the reverence. And we're starting to lose that as a church. But I think this next generation wants it. They just want some older people to walk with them. And I don't know, it's just all this stuff is just so dear to my heart. Making disciples, loving on the next generation, building into them. And if you're older and this is all. These are all new thoughts to you. Yeah, they're new thoughts to me too. I'm not blaming anyone because the only.

[Andy]

Model I was ever given was lead.

[Francis Chan]

Till you die.

[Andy]

That's all I ever knew. So I thought, okay, I'm going to preach till the day I die. I'm going to, you know, and I'll be one of those old guys that's just preaching, you know, Even though everyone left the church, you know, like, but I'm still there. That's all we were taught.

[Francis Chan]

Look at you. How many churches, church buildings have like eight people left, all with gray hair and they're holding on and they think they're being faithful when the reality is they weren't faithful to pass it to the next generation. They weren't faithful to step down and guard the next generation.

[Andy]

Look, we weren't taught that.

[Francis Chan]

It's not our fault. No one ever preached numbers eight to me. That's why you all looked at me like numbers eight. Okay, I think, you know, like, but.

[Andy]

It'S a beautiful And I'm not saying.

[Francis Chan]

We must do exactly as God said to the Levites. I'm just going, wow, what a beautiful pattern. And I think if we had done this, we wouldn't have all these church buildings that are going into foreclosure or whatever else, because we wouldn't have these older guys competing with the younger guys anymore. But they're actually cheering them on. That's what I want to do, man. I mean, I pretty much surround myself with younger guys, and I want them to succeed. I want to cheer them on. But if I'm busy building my own thing, you're.

[Andy]

It's.

[Francis Chan]

It's very hard to do both. And that's what some of us are learning right now. Because you get sucked into things.

[Andy]

Everyone's like, no, you're the only one that can say, we need you.

[Francis Chan]

We need your voice. It's like, I'm not gonna believe that. I'll speak if the Lord leads me to speak. I'm not making some grand statement like I will never preach again. But I'm. I'm getting. You know, I'm like, declining just about everything because I need time with young leaders and I want to walk with them. And I just think that's just so much wiser to pour into them because of this. If I want my kids and my grandkids, I've got five grandkids. I don't try to raise them, you know, I just play with them. And that's. That's their parents job. I'm not taking their job. But in the church, we haven't been doing that. We have grandparents that are still raising the kids because they don't trust the parents, you know, in ministry. And I don't know. I don't know what this means for you personally, what stage of life you're in. And again, I am not judging that older crew because I'm just now understanding the wisdom. That Ron Wilson, he's still alive too. See, you hang with me, you stay alive. He's got 30 years on me, and he's still going strong. Strong. He's going. But he's solid.

[Andy]

Been faithful to his wife.

[Francis Chan]

I mean, at that age. But anyways. But you just go, okay, that's awesome. But no, no, no, no. I fired him long ago. But he is making disciples still. You know, at 88 years old, still making disciples. And. And to this day, I'm so grateful for Ron. We still talk on the phone, regularly, check in, and he still tells me how much he loves me and how that was just like, the best season of his life. And I'm still thanking him for being the example of numbers eight when he didn't even know numbers eight back then. I didn't know numbers eight. I'm like, but this is exactly who you were. And I go, I want you to know I've been preaching about you lately, you know, and telling people we need more Ron Wilson's and that's what I want to do with the rest of my life. And, you know, it's just. There's no competition. It's just great. But we weren't taught this. And so in this time where everyone's trying to build brands and names and followers, we need to get back to disciple making. And we need to get back to one day hoping that when we're approaching our last days and our candle is, you know, pretty small, we start thinking, okay, but look at all these other people that are living on. Someone was just asking me how my kids are doing. I'm like, oh, it's like such a great season. Just recently, like two weeks ago, I did an event and five of my children were leading worship before I preached. And it's just so fun. They're all, like gifted musicians and singers, worship leaders. But we never really grabbed the whole family together. And we're doing it again in Chicago, and we just can't wait to be with each other and go, all right.

[Andy]

Family bed, here we go. You know, and.

[Francis Chan]

But I just. The way they worship and the way they talk about God, I just go, oh, it's good. I can die now. Seriously, it's fine. They're gonna. They have their whole lifetimes, and they're beyond where I was at their age. And so the future is bright. As parents, we gotta kill that whole notion of, I want my kids to hold on to my faith. No, you want them to go way beyond your faith. You know, it's the. It's that. Elijah to Elisha. I want a double portion. It's not like I just want to hold on to some of your values. No, you want a double portion. Don't settle for this. You know, I raised you so that you could learn everything you could from me, things that I didn't learn until later. And now you've got to take it to the next. You're accountable. You've been given much, and so much is required. So this is our hope for this end. I know you guys see some of the big stuff and the rallying and the work and everything else, but understand the heart behind it is we've got to raise another generation of disciple makers. And last thing I'll say and then I'm done is. We all have failures, okay? And we've all made our mistakes. And maybe you listen to this message and you're like, wow, I don't want anyone to live in my house right now. My marriage is not where it ought to be. My walk with the Lord is not where it ought to be. I don't know if I want to make disciples with where I'm at. And I just want to say that those types of things really can change overnight. You know, I really believe in impartation. I really believe there's a supernatural. When we're talking about the Holy Spirit of God, we can't belittle him. Like he's just some little power that we get every once in a while when we gotta heal someone. It's. You're talking about God. Me and Andy and Michael Kuleanas, we're talking about this last night, like, what a sacred thing. We were talking about Mary, you know, who, who had Jesus, the Son of God in her womb. Like the Creator is in her womb. Like, that's massive. That is like mind boggling. This is like the awe. But we were talking about, why do people not feel that way about the Holy Spirit? Like God is the Holy Spirit.

[Andy]

Like we're treating him like this vague.

[Francis Chan]

You know, immaterial power rather than the person of the Holy Spirit. That's not the way Jesus talked about the Holy Spirit. He says, you can blaspheme me. Don't you dare blaspheme him. What does that tell you about the Spirit? The value of God put his Spirit, Holy God in you. Your life can turn around whatever age you are. And it's not about faking and pretending, showing your disciples his face, but telling them, look, I haven't been real about this or this, but I have faith that God's going to change this. You know, and for your children that maybe grew up in a home, that isn't what you would have hoped for them to see, there's something about being later in life and having a faith that the Holy Spirit can change you. And for your kids to get to see that and they know the lies, they know the hypocrisy and can be honest with those things. And then to turn it around, they'll see that also as they're adults. And so I just want to say it's not too late. And I don't want you to take this as just like this heavy or harsh Rebuke. I'm, I'm very hopeful for the future and I think that as we get people back to discipleship, rather than these big glamorous fame, that type of stuff, like, the future is bright and there are young people that want older people in their lives. It's about humility. It's about older guys going, okay, I don't need to make it about me anymore, so let me humble myself and put up with these 25 year olds and build into them and guard them. And then it's the humility of the younger generation going, you know what, if you leave us alone, we're going to blow it. Would you please walk alongside of me? Like, there's just too many churches that are falling apart because the younger generation has this in their heart, but they don't see their need for the older generation. So we're just going to leave and start our own thing. And then the older generations just like, no, you don't know what you're doing, so go ahead, leave, start your own thing. You're going to fail. You know, it's like, well, yeah, they are because you just told them to go off on their own. You know, it's just, we gotta humble ourselves and go, gosh, this is a beautiful pattern that God laid out. And that's what I'm pursuing with whatever left of my candle I have left. It's like I want to pour into these young guys. I want to guard them like that passage says. So Father, I just ask right now. That you change the church. Help us to see your wisdom. Help us to love the next generation and to guard them for those who are younger in this room, God, I pray that they would just have a humility to listen. They're so quick to speak. Everyone's so quick to speak and to post and to share their wisdom. God, help them to see they need older wisdom. They need to listen. They need to stack chairs and just listen before influencing. Help them to see the example of Jesus. Please, Lord, restore your church. That discipleship and Christ likeness would be the things that we are after. Again, in Jesus name I pray. Amen.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you for listening to the Crazy Love podcast. Join us next week for a new episode, but until then, for more resources from Crazy Love Ministries or to support the work of Crazy Love, please visit our [e-mail] SA.