← Crazy Love Podcast
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- [00:05]
Podcast Host
Welcome to the Crazy Love podcast. What would change in your life if you really lived as someone completely secure in the love of God? Today we're sharing a recent conversation between Francis Chan and Charisma magazine where Francis discusses the heart behind his new book, Beloved. He opens up about his own personal journey and the freedom he's found in moving from insecurity and fear to resting fully in the Father's love.
- [00:39]
John
Well, Francis Tran, it's an honor to be able to speak to you here on Charisma Media. Thank you for giving us the time to be able to share about this important message about the love of God and truly what it means to receive that love of God. We're going to talk about this new book that you have, this new, powerful message that God has really revealed to you more and more over the years and how this has come about. But I want to kind of bring in my. A little bit of my personal connection with you or I started listening to your podcast years ago, and one of them, from about 16 years ago is a message that you titled the Most Important Lesson I Could Ever Teach. It really marked me and I've used that to play in front of other groups that God has on the mission field to drive us towards the love of the Word of God and how to read the Word of God until the Word reads me. But your new book, Beloved, has added a layer that has been challenging me again and learning more to live securely from the Father's and be the Father's beloved with these two threads, like trembling at the Word of God, but also resting in love, woven together. How has God woven this together for you lately?
- [01:59]
Francis Chan
Well, I still believe what I said in 2009, like, the most important thing I could teach someone is to love the Word and just dive in, enjoy. And it's really out of that study of the Word comes this understanding of his love for me, which is what this book. So it's not really a. A contrast, but I think some of it too is. I think I used to look at trembling at the Word of God, meaning like God commanded this, therefore I better do it, I better obey.
- [02:40]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
I still believe that.
- [02:42]
Francis Chan
But what I didn't tremble at back.
- [02:44]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Then was his promises. Like, I don't know, when we think.
- [02:50]
Francis Chan
Tremble and revere, it's usually like, oh, he commanded this.
- [02:55]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
But if you look at Scripture, so much of what we should be trembling at is when he promises something, also when he says, I'll be with you always, when he says that I love you and want you to abide in my love. He wants us to believe that, to believe that he's that loving towards us. And for some reason, there was a.
- [03:22]
Francis Chan
Disconnect in my mind, but it's the word of God that opened my eyes to all of this.
- [03:30]
John
Amen. Amen. I truly believe that there is so much of a disconnect in my life. And so many people have grown up in the church because we know about the fear of the Lord. We know that we're trying to always have that fear of the Lord, but we do forget about that. God loves us. We're supposed to love him, but we forget that he loves us. What shifted in your life about. From knowing about God, God's love, to actually experiencing it?
- [04:00]
Francis Chan
Yeah, I mean, I would. I would challenge your thought because I think maybe it was your experience and it may be my experience to maybe understand the fear of the Lord. Yeah, but wrestle with the love of God. I would say there are others that are in the other end of the spectrum, that they feel very secure, and yet there's no reverence, no fear. And I'm like, wow, who are you secure in? So I think, you know, you and I may have some similar church upbringings or whatever the cause is. And I guess for me, it was reading the word of God, being convicted by the word of God. And really it's. It's that first John 4 passage of that perfect love, casting out all fear and just grappling with the fact that there was still fear and insecurity inside of me. But the embarrassment of bringing that up, being known as this, you know, spiritual leader, a pastor, I don't think it was like a desire to be deceptive, but I. I didn't want to hurt anyone's faith by going, hey, I'm. I have my doubts. And then people would go, wow, if he has his doubts, then, you know, what's this all about? And yet I had to be honest and go, you know, there is still some insecurity. I think maybe I didn't want to believe that it was there. I didn't want it there. And yet when I confessed it, believing in the power of prayer and needing my closest friends and family to actually pray for me and believing that would do something. I was just like, I. I don't.
- [06:02]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Want live with any fear. I mean, Jesus died so that I could just be this free and just, like, fearless. Like, I am loved by God, this ecstatic.
- [06:19]
Francis Chan
Person that. That just has that joy, inexpressible, that and full of glory that Peter talks about. I don't want to fake anything. And so I need the prayers of my church and the people. And. And so I really believe that their prayers, my prayers, and ultimately the mercy and grace of a loving God opened my eyes and continues to open my eyes. So I don't know if it's even like we like to believe in just absolute. At this moment, everything changed. And I do think that's true in some ways. But so much is this sanctific sanctification process where I feel like God's opening his my eyes weekly, maybe even daily, to where it's like, you really love me.
- [07:26]
John
Yeah, I want to. I know you tell this story in your book that beloved, that on your 50th birthday is when you called your church family, your friends together to pray for you. Could you take us back to that moment and really how you communicated that need for them to pray for you?
- [07:49]
Francis Chan
I mean, it's. It started with, you know, with my wife and telling her, hey, I don't really want to party. I don't need gifts or any of that. I'm not that into those things anyways. But I. I did say I. I would love for the church body to come together and just pray for me, for the family to lay hands and pray for me. And just as people gathered, I just was honest. Like, I. I don't want to have any doubts of his love for me. I think maybe at my 30th birthday, I would have been like, I don't pray that I would be surrendered and do everything God's called me to do. And so I think I pursued that. And, and God answered those prayers. And, and he led me into a life of surrender as. As best as a fallen guy could lead. And. But then it's interesting how just as life goes on, um, you. You realize, gosh, what really did I accomplish with my life? And what are the most important things and what are the things that I want to get right before I truly see him? Maybe at 30, I would think, I want to get this stuff done. I want to do these things for God. 50. It's, wow, let me get real with anything that is off in my life. I just want to be at peace. Coming into his presence and realizing what was off was some of my. My actual faith and his love for me. I got so caught up in doing the right things that, I don't know, maybe my level of trust in his love for me kind of took a backseat to that.
- [10:07]
John
Wow. Why do you think that we struggle with accepting the love of God so much why is this such an issue? I know how you describe about the apostle John, the disciple John as the beloved disciple. And you changed the way that I have been looking at him since reading this in your book. Because I used to think about him as just man. He's bragging about himself. But you bring a different angle to this. I'd like you to unpack that and why we are still, you know, 2,000 years later, still not accepting the love of God like that.
- [10:42]
Francis Chan
Yeah, well, first and foremost, I would say it's demonic. Clearly demonic. The whole system, the whole world system of why we value people, what we look up to, and it's usually accomplishment. Nowadays, it's fame. How many followers do you have? Used to be more about money. You know, how much did you. How much did you make? But it's, It's. It's never been about as long as I've been alive. We don't admire someone because, oh, they're so secure in God's love for them. And, and that's why I never really looked up to John. I look at Paul, I was like.
- [11:26]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Wow, look at that. He was stoned, he was beaten, he was shipwrecked. He was, you know, but he didn't give up. And, and, you know, 13 books of the New Testament, you know, he. He got the gospel. He.
- [11:39]
Francis Chan
He died at the end of his life. He poured his.
- [11:42]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
And those are great things and obviously.
- [11:45]
Francis Chan
Things that we should emulate. But in doing that, for some reason, John just didn't interest me. And someone once taught those. Those passages that are most difficult to you, those are the ones you should really dig into. And that's where you'll find the greatest gold. And so I guess as I started looking at John and thinking about, wow, he's just known for being loved. He's known as the beloved. He calls himself the disciple whom Jesus loved. The more I studied that, the more I thought, oh, wow, that's amazing. He really is the one that wrote some fascinating verses like, just as the Father has loved me, so have I loved you, now remain in my love. And I remember looking at that, but not really thinking about John the person. And then seeing how even verses that we would sing and memorize as kids. Beloved, let us love one another. I mean, he's calling us beloved. I didn't notice that until, you know.
- [13:08]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
A little while ago.
- [13:09]
Francis Chan
It never really changed.
- [13:10]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Jumped out to me.
- [13:11]
Francis Chan
Like, he's not just saying, I'm the beloved one. He's reminding us all that we're beloved and we have to have that reminder before. Let us love one another. He doesn't say, servants, let us love one another. But beloved, let us love one another. The more I start just looking at that word and, and thinking, oh, I.
- [13:37]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Never thought about the fact that that's what God says about Jesus. I mean, at the baptism, it's like, this is my son, whom I love. At the transfiguration, this is my son, whom I love. Like, that identity. And I'm going, oh, John understood that. Like, that's the identity that Jesus himself took.
- [14:09]
Francis Chan
That's what the Father emphasized.
- [14:12]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
And I, I, you know, that's why.
- [14:16]
Francis Chan
Even on the book, there's a, you know, an artist rendition of, you know, I was just looking for that. Is there artistry? And it's the only one I could find of John laying his head on, On Jesus's chest. And because I have to keep reminding myself, I want to be John. I want to be John. I want to be John because I naturally gravitate to. I want to accomplish this. I want to get this done. I don't, I don't know what causes that. Maybe it's because the whole world does that.
- [14:50]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Maybe it's my upbringing.
- [14:54]
Francis Chan
Maybe it's my pride. I don't know what it is, but I can just get stuck there. And when I get stuck there, it becomes about me and what I do and what I accomplish versus him and how much he loves me and how much grace he's poured on me.
- [15:14]
John
Yeah. So much of the attacks that we deal with against this is based on our identity. Where is our identity found? And you mentioned that even Jesus, you know, during the, with the transfiguration, with the baptism, the Father said, this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. Like, Jesus needed that affirmation. We need that. We need to receive that affirmation. I think so many times we just reject it and say, oh, no, I'm just a worm. I'm. I'm a sinner saved by grace. And we forget that we are actually loved. How do we. What advice do you have for us to actually recognize those attacks on our identity with that insecurity in, in real time?
- [15:57]
Francis Chan
Yeah. I mean, even the fact that you would use that phrase tells me we kind of grew up in a similar tradition, which.
- [16:06]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Absolutely, I agree. I, I'm disgusting in and of myself. I mean, my life was headed in a bad direction. Even after supposedly believing in him. The hypocrisy, just the junk and everything else. It's like, oh, my sin.
- [16:26]
Francis Chan
It's a. You Know, like Paul says in Romans.
- [16:28]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
This wretched man that I am, who's.
- [16:31]
Francis Chan
Gonna save me from this? So we're not denying that. It's just that when that's all you're.
- [16:41]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Told.
- [16:44]
Francis Chan
Which some traditions, that is all we emphasize. I think we're trying to guard against pride complacency, but we're neglecting some amazing truths in scripture. And we need to be people who, you know, that's where I think it's first. Thessalonians 3, maybe don't quote me on that. Well, it's recorded, so I guess I'm quoted.
- [17:12]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
But, you know, he talks about, you know, how.
- [17:18]
Francis Chan
We have to confront or rebuke the unruly and encourage the faint hearted. That's the job of a leader. You encourage the faint hearted and you rebuke the unruly. And so as a shepherd, as a pastor, as a lover of someone, you. You need to know, okay, when is it time to rebuke and when is it time to encourage? And, you know, like I said at the beginning, there's some of us that grew up with. With a fear of God, but no real understanding of his love and enjoyment of us. I mean, even that phrase of enjoyment of us. I was like, wait, what? He enjoys me. This is something that I've wrestled with because of that religious upbringing. But then there's others who really don't understand that the friendship of the Lord is for those who fear Him. And so I, I just think we have to be wiser, more discerning. Those of us who've only heard one side, now that we see it in the word of God, we don't swing the pendulum the other way, you know, as some have done, and say, okay, I'm done with the fear of God, because that's all they talked about. Now I'm just going to talk about his grace and his mercy. But then you end up with a church that questions whether or not God can be a judge and whether or not a loving God can pour out his wrath. And that's not the right answer either.
- [19:06]
John
Yeah. And the way that you. One of the ways that you can get to know the Lord is through. I was talking with your team earlier, and they said about the fires of meditation and focusing on the Scripture. And I love that all throughout, Beloved, you build in time to not just here's the verse, but you are like, read this. Meditate on this. Francis, what is some fresh moments that God has moved you from fear back to delight in those fires of that meditation?
- [19:42]
Francis Chan
You know, some of it is faith, just believing in the things that are invisible. I see you can. You can test someone on how well they know a certain point of theology, how much they've memorized. It's tangible, it's physical. Those are the things we tend to focus on. But there's. You know, so I could show up somewhere and I can give a sermon, and people hear it with their ears, they process it with their mind. They may laugh, they may cry, they may this, this, this, you know, but they can almost gauge it or measure it. They can even say, oh, he said this. And I think he misquoted this verse. Because, look, he. He said it was in First Thessalonians, chapter three, but it's actually in five or this, that, you know, we would look at these meas.
- [20:49]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Things, but the Bible talks about these. This impartation.
- [20:56]
Francis Chan
It talks about Paul, then Paul's praying.
- [21:00]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
For this enlightening of the eyes of your heart. There are these miraculous, invisible things that the scripture tells us to focus on.
- [21:11]
Francis Chan
To dwell on the invisible, because everything.
- [21:15]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
That'S physical and visible is passing away, but it's the invisible that.
- [21:20]
Francis Chan
That's eternal and that's going to last.
- [21:22]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
And so I guess I'm just believing.
- [21:27]
Francis Chan
For myself that there are times when I just say, lord, I need the eyes of my heart enlightened. I need to know. Like, know what is that? It's. It's not about just education and information. I need to know these things in.
- [21:49]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
The depths of my soul.
- [21:50]
Francis Chan
And I believe that you on this.
- [21:52]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Throne of grace, and you hear me and you love me and not just saying, I want to know your love more.
- [21:58]
Francis Chan
And I believe something happens during that time.
- [22:02]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
When I go to speak.
- [22:03]
Francis Chan
My focus now is not on did they like it? Did they learn something? Was there information past the things that are so tangible, but was there anything invisible that was imparted that was truly of the Holy Spirit that will take root at the core of their being?
- [22:26]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
So it's not even people walking forward.
- [22:28]
Francis Chan
And coming to an altar. There are things I probably won't see. Just like I think about my youth pastor as a teenager preaching sermons I don't even remember. But something took root because I see the results of it 40 years later. I think something was happening in that spiritual warfare. And so that's where it's hard to define some of these things that have happened in my life. Because those of us who believe in the invisible, sometimes you don't even know when it happened. It just happened because you see the results of it all.
- [23:20]
John
Right. So I want to dive a little bit deeper into that believing in the invisible that you were just talking about. Because, I mean, I think I have a bit of a more analytical mind. And I love those TV shows where they break down. This is how the magician did this optical illusion. And it's like, how do they do that? I'm always trying to figure something out. But if we're supposed to have faith and believe in the invisible and just know. I mean, I'm reminded of Psalm 46, 10. Be still and know that I am God. And there's so many verses in the Bible that talk about God fighting our battles for us, and we need only to be still. It's so hard because I want to figure everything out and I want to be a part of it and do that, to just let God do that. How do we. What are some practical things we can do for us doers to trust in the invisible?
- [24:19]
Francis Chan
You know, even as you were talking, John, I'm just. I'm praying for you. I'm asking God to do things in your heart that only he can do. You know, we're kind of pressured into even. Even this having conversation, knowing that it's recorded. There's almost like this pressure. Like, say something profound. Even this morning as I was praying, I really felt God was impressing on me that I need to believe less in my speech and more in my prayer. In other words, you know, those who are listening or watching, there's just this weird thing going on where you're listening or watching because you want to. Hopefully I'll say something profound and you can grab a hold of it. At some point. If. If I'm believing that.
- [25:57]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
And don't.
- [25:59]
Francis Chan
Don't take this the wrong way. I'm not saying that God doesn't give us gifts.
- [26:05]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Obviously, the Holy Spirit right now could be speaking through me, and that's what I hope for, that he manifests in this way. But do we believe in. Even right now? And as I'm trying to not think about you and just thinking about the throne, and I'm saying, God, would you just dispense or release or just lovingly give grace to everyone that's listening? Because I. Is it beyond words? Is there a groaning? Is there this spiritual. Yes. Jesus, please keep interceding for them. Holy Spirit, keep groaning for them. With words, too. With groanings too deep for words. God, just bless them. Bless them. This moment. This moment. Like, do you believe in the power of that. That simple prayer? Is that what you hunger for? Oh, I just want Someone who knows the Lord to just lay hands on me and pray for me. You know, last night at our prayer.
- [27:17]
Francis Chan
Gathering, just people are going around laying.
- [27:19]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Hands on each other and praying, and I'm just, just thrilled because I'm going, God, we want your presence here.
- [27:26]
Francis Chan
We want to see this power.
- [27:28]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
And I believe something happened and.
- [27:34]
Francis Chan
And maybe we hunger for this awesome service, you know, sermon, worship, set, singer, preacher. And because of that, we're not experiencing this miraculous life change that just comes from this interaction with the Lord and just from a simple reading of the Word and his scriptures. And so I think guys like me, we can feel pressure when we get on a stage or get on a podcast or interview. And that's why I shared with you. I don't really do this a lot because I don't like who I become when I feel pressured to say something or say something profound. And I know I have power over that. I know that. No, it's my choice. Maybe I'm just too weak and I give into that pressure. And then I don't even like how I sound when I'm trying to say something that's pleasing to the ear or intelligent or something they've never heard before. Sometimes I, you know, see like a clip of me and I'm like, I don't, I don't like that I wasn't spirit filled at that moment.
- [29:04]
John
You know, Francis, as you're, as you're talking, I'm feeling the presence of the Lord. You know, I know you're. You're in a different state in a different part of the country. You're on, you're in the West Coast. I'm on, I'm here in Orlando and on the East Coast. But there is no distance in the Holy Spirit. And what you are feeling and what you are sensing, I'm feeling it too. And I'm getting a little overwhelmed, honestly, because there's times where you feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit, where you need to repent and do things. But what I'm feeling right now, what I'm hoping and believing and praying, that everybody watching this, at whatever, whenever they're watching or listening to this, that they're feeling this love being poured over them. As you were, as you were talking, I was just feeling that because that is my desire. And I know I'm having a hard time receiving that the way that God wants to pour out. It's like when you try to give somebody a gift and they just have a hard time receiving it, and it makes you feel a certain way I don't ever want to be that way with God. And it's. What's happening in this conversation right now is I feel a holy moment. I really do.
- [30:28]
Francis Chan
You know, as, as you say, like, you. You want to feel that that's your desire. A lot of what compelled me to write the book was realizing this is God's desire lacking. He wants me to know. He wants me to know that I'm loved by Him. And I, I logically even go, I.
- [31:03]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Don'T know what more you could do for me. I mean, you. You proved it on the cross so clearly. What kind of holy God sacrifices and, and suffers himself. For me, everything I read in scripture is there's a.
- [31:30]
Francis Chan
It's so that we would be his inheritance. Like, he desires me, he wants me. It's motivated by him so loving the world. That's the first verse we memorized. And yet.
- [31:45]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
And it's because of his.
- [31:48]
Francis Chan
He's rich in mercy and his great love with which he loved us. This is the motivating factor. And I don't know how he could say it more clearly.
- [32:02]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
And then on top of that, I just think about my life. God, you took me from a wreck of a person.
- [32:09]
Francis Chan
I mean, when I was in college.
- [32:10]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
I just thought.
- [32:14]
Francis Chan
Gosh, I'm supposed to know you. And look at the sin in my life and the way he's restored and loved and blessed. I go, God, I don't know anyone you've blessed like this. So I, I don't know what more you could have done. And so the fact that there's still doubt in me, it's kind of repulsive to me. I go, God, I don't want to be that person, and you don't want me to be that person. And for everyone that's listening or watching, there's this God in heaven that wants you to believe in his love for you. And as much as you want it yourself, just rest in the fact that God wants this for you. Wow.
- [33:16]
John
It's Zephaniah 3:17. The Lord rejoices over us with singing and with gladness. It's hard to accept that God is rejoicing over us, but we need to. We need to accept that and receive that.
- [33:37]
Francis Chan
Yeah. And I, I. So we're living in a very interesting time where I've never seen anything like nothing close to this, where every word is scrutinized. So you feel this pressure to speak and even speak quickly and answer everyone's questions. And at the same time, you say one word wrong and someone else Will critique, publicly judge your motives, your theology. Everything else based upon every word is scrutinized by humans, fallible humans. It's one thing to be scrutinized by the Lord where he says every careless word is going to be judged, and we need to take that seriously. But then when you have humans with impure motives. We all have impure motives, fallen motives. You just keep, like, feeling like everyone's after you. And so that type of mindset and conditioning that I think is, at the root demonic makes it harder for you to believe in a God who isn't looking and waiting to pounce on you. Oh, John, you said this wrong. Or, John, you know, you're. You're over spiritualizing, or you're going off.
- [35:22]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Of your feelings, or, you know, you're.
- [35:25]
Francis Chan
So used to that, that, that you can start to look at God that way.
- [35:30]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
And, and so then to believe that, no, he's a God who's for you. He's a God who's singing over you.
- [35:37]
Francis Chan
He's a God who.
- [35:38]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Saint Francis, I don't know what more I can do to show. Show you I love you, I desire you. I'm for you. And if I'm for you, who cares who's against you? I'm for you. But we're so not used to people being for you, especially in the church. The church is the worst place for that. It's like people that are trying their hardest to serve the Lord and everything else. And. And meanwhile, you've got just all sorts of individuals that believe that they're the only ones that have truth. And so go ahead, go ahead, John. Say something. Say something wrong. And I'm gonna blast it, because I am not for you. I am for my little group and their theology. You say one thing. I am not for you. I don't pray for you. I don't love you. And so you start to go, gosh, is this the way God is? Not even consciously. And so then you read these passages and you're going, okay, God, help me believe this. My own family doesn't feel this way about me. My own father didn't feel this way. My own church doesn't feel this way. And so I'm supposed to believe in this God. So somehow we are supposed to be his ambassadors and, you know, talk about, no, I'm for you. He's for you. I love you. Gosh, let me gently correct you when you're off. Let me humbly, with all humility and gentleness, like Ephesians 4 says, you know, let Me bear with you in love because that's the way God does it.
- [37:26]
Francis Chan
And I have not been faithful to being that example. I'm trying to be more and more like that because if we don't, if.
- [37:40]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
We'Re not like that, then we're just.
- [37:43]
Francis Chan
Adding to this fuel to the enemy's fire of the accuser and we start believing that God is that way when it's really Satan is that way. You know, it's like, you know, oh, Job only loves you because of this.
- [38:01]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
You know, it's like we sound so.
- [38:03]
Francis Chan
Much more like him than we do God, who's like this is my beloved son and he's one. Hey, have you considered my servant Job? You know, it's. Anyways, that didn't mean to go up on that tangent, but I, I'm blessed.
- [38:25]
John
By that tangent for sure. One of the questions that I've been wanting to ask you is something that I love just asking anybody that has been walking with the Lord for, for a long time, you know, if you could go back in time and visit, visit a young version of yourself, what advice would you give yourself and what's going on that you'd want to receive that? And I, I know that something like this actually kind of happened to you recently that you went back and reread for the, for an audio version of Crazy Love and then so something amazing came out of that. But can you kind of. I kind of threw a multi part question there. But can, can you tell us what you would give younger Francis?
- [39:06]
Francis Chan
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. It's, it's true. I read Crazy Love for the first time in like 15 years because he had to re record the audio version. But as I read it, I thought, oh wow, I'm such a different person now. Still believe those things. But there's so much more and do I need to rewrite the book? Do I need to. And that's where Beloved came out of. But I guess if I could go back, I think the most important thing, if I could go back to, let's see, 18 year old Francis, you know, I would say make sure you keep growing in the knowledge of his love. That isn't a elementary thing like, oh, you know, that he loves you now move on to deeper truths. No, that is a deep truth that you need to know more deeply and to grow in as you learn about these. Because I was secure as a high school student in the love of Christ. It was later my Bible college and seminary training that took me to these other things where we treated the love of God, like a, an elementary truth that, come on, those seeker friendly churches will teach that. Let's move on and explain why the gifts don't exist anymore. Let's go to some deeper, let's go to the meat of why everyone else is wrong. And we're the only ones with correct theology. And I would go back and go, gosh, don't, Don't lose sight of relationship.
- [41:30]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Don't lose sight of like just enjoying.
- [41:35]
Francis Chan
Him and growing in that enjoyment.
- [41:38]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
And you know, we, who would always.
- [41:43]
Francis Chan
Say like this isn't religion, this is relationship and God wants to know you and.
- [41:51]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
But then all the things we do.
- [41:55]
Francis Chan
Kind of pull us away from that relationship.
- [41:57]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Even in the church, it really, whatever thing. And I wish, I wish I had just known that.
- [42:09]
Francis Chan
I would wrestle so much, would be so easy to drift into works and action, improving yourself and, and how quickly the enemy can get you to not believe that God loves you and the lights in you. And so I would just, if there was, if there was a way to just implant that truth in my heart that I have to keep growing and believing in his love more. Because that's Paul's prayers for the Ephesians really opened my eyes. The fact that he's talking to believers, those who are faithful in Christ Jesus, you know, who love the saints, and he's saying, I'm praying that you would know the love of Christ. That's beyond comprehension. Praying that you would know how wide and long and high and deep. I'm praying that he would strengthen you by the Holy Spirit in your inner being. You know, it's, it's so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.
- [43:27]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
You know, it's like, whoa, wait, I.
- [43:30]
Francis Chan
Thought that happened at the point of my conversion. Why are you praying for these strong believers that you say are faithful in the Lord? And so I guess it's just, okay, let's, let's never deviate from that. Okay? Because as great as your life has been, it could have been infinitely better.
- [44:01]
John
Jesus loves me, this I know for the Bible tells me so Little ones to him belong. They are weak, but he is strong. Yes, Jesus loves me. Yes, Jesus loves me. Yes, Jesus loves me. The Bible tells me so. You said earlier that we sometimes treat the love of God as just an elementary part of our experience with him. But if you take away the melody of that and you really believe those words, it does something into you. It really, really does.
- [44:39]
Francis Chan
Yeah, it's, you know, even as you're quoting it, there's just something about that Re. Emphasis of that phrase. Yes, Jesus loves me. Yes, Jesus loves me. Yes, Jesus loves me. Um, I don't know who authored that or whatever, but it's. You know, it's like that old hymn that says, we're prone to wander, Lord, I feel it. Prone to leave the God I love. Here's my heart, Lord. Take and seal it. You know, like, steal this, put that mark on it so it can't be open and the enemy can't, you know, like, seal this. Yes, Jesus loves me. Yes, Jesus loves me. Yeah, these and maybe that. I don't know if it was a kid's song when it was written. I don't know nothing about the history of that song, but it's just. What the enemy will do is gone. Oh, look at John and Francis quoting Jesus Loves Me. Wow, that's real mature. I could just see, like, my oldest, my old classmates going, yep, there he goes. You know, little childish Francis. Well, yeah, you know what? And I want to grow in this childlike faith. I want to. The older I get, I do want to become more like a child and just take these truths and go, yes, Jesus loves me. And it is. It is. It is simple. But I. I pray for that depth that. That Paul prays for. Yeah.
- [46:31]
John
Pastor Francis, would you pray for me? Would you pray for the people that have been watching and listening to this as well, that we would really embrace our identity as beloved.
- [46:51]
Francis Chan
Father? You, as you sit on your throne and the angels adore you and are loved by you, and the saints are worshiping you.
- [47:08]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
God, we know that this is not flesh and blood. We know that there are these demonic forces, cosmic powers over this present darkness.
- [47:25]
Francis Chan
They're blinding us.
- [47:27]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
They're tricking us.
- [47:28]
Francis Chan
They're fooling us.
- [47:33]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
God, we want your bride, your church, just to. To know that they're living loved God, despite how others have treated us. Lord, you are not man that you would lie. You promise this love. Break through that darkness. Open our eyes, all of us. God, in a moment from your throne, would you just pour that grace? We thank you that you are rich in mercy.
- [48:06]
Francis Chan
Like you love to forgive.
- [48:09]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
You're abounding in steadfast love. It's overflowing. So may we feel it. May we know it in our hearts. Enlighten the eyes of our hearts, Lord. Oh, God, right now, would your holy spirit just give us power, strengthen us in our inner being so that Christ may dwell in.
- [48:35]
Francis Chan
In our hearts through faith.
- [48:36]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
We want to abide, dwell in that love so that the enemy cannot just take us away. And get us back into works or get us back into doubt or shame.
- [48:50]
Francis Chan
Come Lord Jesus, please, for all who are listening. In Jesus name I pray. Amen.
- [49:01]
John
Amen and Amen. Pastor Francis, thank you so much for taking the time to share your heart behind this powerful message of Beloved that we are beloved and we can be loved by God for sure. Thank you so much.
- [49:20]
Francis Chan
Thanks John.
- [49:24]
Podcast Host
Thanks for listening to the Crazy Love Podcast. If this conversation encouraged you, we'd love for you to dive deeper into Francis new book, beloved, releasing October 7th. You can pre order your copy now on Amazon and begin discovering what it means to live as the Father's beloved. To learn more, please visit our website@crazylove.org.
- [49:53]
Francis Chan (alternate voice or emphasis)
Sa.