474- The Obstacle is the SwagWAY, with Julian Glander

Summary

Creative Pep Talk Episode 474: "The Obstacle is the SwagWAY" with Julian Glander

Release Date: October 9, 2024
Host: Andy J. Pizza
Guest: Julian Glander, 3D Artist and Filmmaker
Podcast Description: Inspiring Stories & Actionable Strategies for Building a Thriving Creative Practice

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Introduction

In Episode 474 of Creative Pep Talk, host Andy J. Pizza welcomes Julian Glander, a renowned 3D artist and filmmaker, to discuss his latest project, the feature-length 3D animated film "Boys Go to Jupiter." Andy expresses his long-standing admiration for Julian’s unique aesthetic, characterized by blobby 3D characters, neon color palettes, and vibrant animations.

Andy J. Pizza [00:03]: “On the creative journey, it's easy to get lost. But don't worry, you'll lift off.”

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Julian Glander's Creative Journey

Julian shares his evolution from creating GIFs and short animations to directing a full-length animated film. He emphasizes the importance of taking incremental steps and embracing an independent spirit without waiting for external validation or resources.

Julian Glander [09:08]: “I'm in the process of releasing an animated feature film. It's called Boys Go to Jupiter. It's an indie kind of coming-of-age musical sci-fi comedy about a teenage boy in suburban Florida.”

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Overcoming Obstacles: The SwagWAY Concept

The episode delves into Julian’s philosophy that obstacles and limitations can serve as powerful catalysts for creativity. He introduces the concept of the "SwagWAY," inspired by Ryan Holiday’s "The Obstacle is the Way," suggesting that challenges can become the driving force behind unique and innovative creative work.

Andy J. Pizza [06:25]: “We also talk about how the obstacle is the swag way, AKA why your limitations or roadblocks can become the best fodder for your creative work.”

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Creative Process and Problem-Solving

Julian discusses his adaptive approach to filmmaking, highlighting instances where technical challenges led to creative solutions. For example, rather than investing extensive time in perfecting walk cycles—a traditionally labor-intensive aspect of animation—he opted for characters to float or use whimsical movements, adding a unique charm to the film.

Julian Glander [52:31]: “Instead of trying to cover something up on a technical side, I zoom in on it and sell it as comedy.”

This pragmatic problem-solving not only streamlined production but also enriched the film’s distinct visual style.

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Embracing Independent Spirit and Ownership

A significant theme of the conversation is the value of maintaining creative ownership. Julian emphasizes the importance of believing in oneself and pursuing projects independently, thereby preserving the originality and integrity of one’s creative vision.

Andy J. Pizza [06:04]: “Embracing the obstacle is the swag way. It's about how to see those obstacles in your creative story as the fodder for your next breakthrough.”

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Collaboration and Community

Julian attributes much of his success to collaborative efforts and supportive relationships. He highlights the significance of working with talented voice actors and producers who share his creative vision, enhancing the overall quality and appeal of the film.

Julian Glander [10:13]: “He's the guy who really kind of inspired me to start doing 3D. So he animated this special sequence within the movie, which is my little way of paying tribute to him.”

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Notable Scenes and Cast Insights

The duo reminisces about memorable scenes and contributions from the film’s eclectic cast, including celebrities like Chris Fleming. Julian shares anecdotes about recording sessions that injected humor and spontaneity into the project, underscoring the dynamic interplay between scripted content and improvisation.

Julian Glander [62:09]: “Every single one of them is just, like, so captivating.”

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Lessons Learned and Creative Insights

Throughout the episode, Julian imparts valuable lessons on navigating the creative process:

• Treat Projects as Separate Entities: Julian advocates for distinguishing between the creative and marketing aspects of a project, allowing each to be handled without one compromising the other.

  Julian Glander [24:05]: “I think this isn't comprehensive as an answer to your question, but... always treat them as two very separate projects.”

• Utilize Placeholders Creatively: Embracing temporary solutions can lead to unexpected creative breakthroughs.

  Julian Glander [54:40]: “Something that might be a placeholder to you might be someone's favorite thing ever.”

• Leverage Community Support: Engaging with supportive friends and collaborators can provide the necessary encouragement and feedback to overcome creative blocks.

  Julian Glander [29:57]: “Talking it out with my producer and then also with my wife... really motivating for me.”

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Creative Call to Adventure: Find a SwagWAY

Concluding the episode, Andy introduces the Creative Call to Adventure: Find a SwagWAY. He encourages listeners to identify and embrace their own obstacles, transforming them into unique creative opportunities.

Andy J. Pizza [70:55]: “Don't pretend like that obstacle, that thing that counts you out... becomes the thing that makes my creative project unique and different.”

Listeners are motivated to view their challenges not as hindrances but as integral elements that can shape and define their creative endeavors.

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Final Thoughts and Encouragement

Andy wraps up by highlighting the importance of integrating creative practices into daily habits, fostering a disciplined yet flexible approach to creativity. He underscores the value of community and continuous learning in sustaining a thriving creative practice.

Andy J. Pizza [80:23]: “Just keep this streak going and hopefully it will inspire you to do the same.”

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Notable Quotes:

• Julian Glander [07:25]: “It's big content. It's jumbo content.”
• Julian Glander [25:13]: “Leaving it open. We had a script, but even the script changed a lot...”
• Julian Glander [57:29]: “The biggest inspiration... Muppets.”

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Conclusion

Episode 474 of Creative Pep Talk offers a deep dive into Julian Glander's innovative approach to filmmaking, underscored by the philosophy of transforming obstacles into creative advantages. Through engaging discussions, practical insights, and heartfelt anecdotes, both Julian and Andy inspire listeners to navigate their own creative journeys with resilience and ingenuity.

For aspiring creatives, this episode serves as a testament to the power of independent spirit, collaborative effort, and the creative potential inherent in every challenge.

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Connect with Julian Glander:

• Instagram: @glanderco
• Website: julian glander

Stay Updated with Creative Pep Talk:

Subscribe to Creative Pep Talk on your favorite podcast platform to receive weekly episodes packed with inspiration and actionable strategies to fuel your creative practice.

Transcript

[Julian Glander]

On the creative journey, it's easy to get lost. But don't worry, you'll lift off.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Sometimes you just need a creative pep talk. Hey, you're listening to Creative Pep Talk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. I'm your host, Andy J. Pizza. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and illustrator and this show is is everything I'm learning about building and maintaining a thriving creative practice. Today we have 3D artist and now filmmaker Julian Glander. Julian Glander and I have been Internet buddies for about a decade now and I have been a huge fan, long time fan of his blobby 3D characters and just neon color palettes and gifs and animation and music for the longest time. And then this summer he came out with a freaking new 3D animated film, feature length film called Boys Go to Jupiter and it freaking premiered at Tribeca Film Festival. And y'all, I got to watch it. A super sneak peek version of the movie and it is incredibly delightful and inspiring and I just really could not believe just the creative path of this guy and then also just the brilliance and insight and just everything he's pulled off in this movie. The cast is unbelievable. Jack Corbett, Janine Garofalo, Tavi Gevinson, Chris Fleming, just to name a few. There's even more than that. It is funny and heartwarming and the music is so good it could exist on its own just as an album. Julian wrote the music and he performs some of it I believe, and then others are performed by other people. Go check out Julian's work on instagram @glanderco gl a n d e rco to see where the film is going to be playing at festivals, etc. And so that you can get a little taste of it and see his work and know when it's going to be streaming on a TV near you. I was beaming after this chat. I mean I was giddy inspired my gut hurt from laughing so much and just a few nuggets to kind of tune in for as we work through this chat. The first one is this is another one that I think really illustrates the power of embracing an independent spirit in your creativity. Not waiting for somebody to give you the huge budget and time and label to believe that you could make a film and just go for it and figure out how to make it on your own. This is what he has accomplished here through just his own creative spirit blows me away. And I think the way that creativity has been monopolized. Is that a word? Just commodified to the point where we have lost ownership is just such a huge problem. And I think the only way out of it, as always, when we get in this space is to start just believing in ourselves and doing our projects on our own when we need to. And I think that you'll get tons from this chat in that direction. But we also talk about how the obstacle is the swag way, AKA why your limitations or roadblocks can become the best fodder for your creative work. And he has such a powerful example of this in this movie and talks about it in this chat. Stick to the end and I will return with a cta, AKA our creative call to adventure, a way to put some of these ideas to practice. It's called find a swag way however you can. It's about how to see those obstacles in your creative story as the fodder for your next breakthrough in a kind of practical light. All right, without any further ado, here is my chat with Julian Glander. Miro is a collaborative virtual workspace that syncs in real time for you and your team so that you can innovate an idea into an outcome seamlessly. We talk a lot on this show about the idea of how creative research shows that playing with the problem is essential to innovation. Now, when I think of play, I don't think of documents and email, so if your team is often working remote, you need something more dynamic and collaborative. I think that Miro's mind maps and flow charts, where team members can edit and play in real time, has a lot more capacity for innovation and playing with the process than traditional ways of collaborating over the Internet. Whether you work in innovation, product design, engineering, ux, agile, or it, bring your teams to Miro's revolutionary innovation workspace and be faster. From idea to outcome. Go to miro.com to find out how. That's M I R O.com I'm a believer in the idea of dressing for the job you want, not the job you have. And I have applied this to my creative practice too, which means if you want professional results, you need to present online like a pro. And that means going beyond social media and having a professional website that reflects your style and looks legit. I rebuilt my site this year with Squarespace's Fluid engine and was so happy with how easily I could build my vision without coding that when they approached me to support the show, I jumped at the chance because I love and use this product. So go check it out. Squarespace.com Pep talk to test it out for yourself and when you're ready to launch your site, use promo code. Pep talk. All one word. All caps for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks. Goes out to Squarespace for supporting the show and supporting creators all over the world. Okay, so I just. I watch your movie. Film? Is it a film? Is there a difference between that?

[Julian Glander]

I think film is better.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I think it's a film.

[Julian Glander]

Okay, I'll take it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I think I was at the film festival.

[Julian Glander]

I think it. For me, it's a flick.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Okay. It's a flick. It's like, you could get it at Blockbuster.

[Julian Glander]

It's big content. It's jumbo content.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's like a movie. Like a movie that's content.

[Julian Glander]

It's a movie that gets cut up on TikTok into, like, 100 parts, and there's, like, a guy talking over the whole thing. Do you ever see those?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes, but that could be it. I mean.

[Julian Glander]

Yeah, that's where I wanted to go.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Really? It's beautiful. Honestly. We're kidding. We're definitely. It's. It is fantastic. I loved it.

[Julian Glander]

Thank you. I'm so glad you watched it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's so good, and I can't wait for other people to see it. How. When will people be able to see it?

[Julian Glander]

So it premiered at Tribeca Film Festival in June, where we're at now with it is gearing up for our fall festival run. So it's gonna be at. It's gonna be in Nashville and Tallahassee in these next couple weeks. It's going up to Ottawa. We'll do an LA premiere. It's going to Houston. It's going to an airport in Japan. That has an airport film festival. It's going to the Netherlands. It's going to London, and that's. So every weekend for the rest of the year, it's going to be screening somewhere, and then hopefully it gets on streaming or we do a little theatrical release or something.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Dude, I'm so glad I'm talking to you right now, because in just one year, you'll. You'll pretend like you never met me. You'll be like, oh, that guy. We. I think he.

[Julian Glander]

We go way back.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Loser. No, no, but I am serious. I'm serious to be. I'm excited to talk to you right now because this is a fun moment. Are you having fun? First of all, tell people what the hell we're talking about. Okay, sure. So then we'll get into it.

[Julian Glander]

Sure. So I'm in the process of releasing an animated feature film. It's called Boys Go to Jupiter. It's an indie kind of coming of age musical sci fi comedy about a teenage boy in suburban Florida. Has an all star comedy cast, including Joe Pera, Sarah Sherman, Julio Torres, Elsie Fisher. I can't even name them all. Every time I do this, I have to leave off 10 people. So go type it into Google Boys. Go to Jeanine Garoppolo, Jenny Garofal, who's great. She is great, isn't she?

[Andy J. Pizza]

And were you the paramedic?

[Julian Glander]

I was the paramedic. Oh my God. Good.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Even I caught it instantly. Great.

[Julian Glander]

Uncredited two lines of the movie and you clocked it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, yeah, that was great. Great.

[Julian Glander]

I have a couple other parts in there too. I also play the Goblin King who lives inside a video game in the movie.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Okay, yeah, I didn't catch that.

[Julian Glander]

One embarrassment of star talent there is.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That video game one is that. I think on the Internet it's Beef Strong or something.

[Julian Glander]

Beef Strong.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Jordan Spear, his work is incredible.

[Julian Glander]

He's the guy who really kind of inspired me to start doing 3D. So he animated this special sequence within the movie, which is my little way of paying tribute to him because, yeah, I think he's great. Beef Strong is his name on social media.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Great. I mean, he's one of those guys, I think that has converted a lot of 2D people into 3D wanting to get in there because, I mean, I know several and myself included. Every time I see his work, I'm just like, dude, I want my work to be able to do that. Like that is.

[Julian Glander]

Oh, completely. Yeah. It's fantastic. Just the texture. This is the personality that he has in the work and the level of detail is crazy.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, yeah, he's a beast. Incredible. Great, great vibe too. I like I said I love the movie. One thing before we get into like the real conversation about it. It made me think, like, the music is so good, which you also did. The music?

[Julian Glander]

I did write the music, yes.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And I thought, is this like, this would be an incredible way to launch your music career? I mean, I know you do music. I know you do music. But I thought like, what if this is like an elaborate scheme to launch your first album?

[Julian Glander]

Well, you know what? It kind of is because when I first got out of college, I was in a band. It didn't really take. And I think part of it is it is very difficult. It's one of the art forms that's harder than almost any other to get people to pay attention to you. So. Right. In some ways this is a long play to get people to listen to my songwriting. And it certainly helps. I got some real superstar talent singers in the movie as well. There's a song by Mia Folic which she sings, which I listen to as if it's not my own song.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Is that the money one?

[Julian Glander]

Yes.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Oh, it's so good. What's the chorus line about? Money.

[Julian Glander]

Tastes like heaven, tastes like honey, Tastes like piles and piles of money. Yeah. Look at this. There's two guys who have seen the movie and no one else has. It feels good.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's. It's good, dude. And I. And I. That song was incredible. And I thought this is a. This would be an amazing, like, Trojan horse way of launching an album. Like, if you're struggling out there to launch your album, just make a movie.

[Julian Glander]

Make a movie.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And that's how you'll.

[Julian Glander]

I mean, that sort of is like, in some ways it is that. Yeah, I think, you know, I studied creative writing in school and same thing, I would write a short story, and I found it very hard to get people to pay attention to it. You know, I think these, there are these sort of pure art forms, I guess, like, you know, a painting, a short story, a song. These things that very much are self contained and don't live in a greater context, that are very hard to get in front of people. Definitely when I was, and I mean, when I was in school, what I used to do is I'd write a short story for class and then I would post it, like, as a Yelp review for a local restaurant. And like, that's how I would get people to read it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. And dude, I was joking and not joking at the same. Just like, what you were saying. Like, I didn't think you were actually, like, this is actually just an album in disguise because the movie is fantastic and hilarious and just really enjoyable. But I did, I did think that. I did think, like, I've thought a lot about how, like, as an example, Pixar blew up in the, what, late 90s, maybe, something like that. And all the conversations, at least at the beginning now, all the conversations now are about Pixar and story. They're like synonymous things. But the conversations then were like, it's a computer animated movie like this. Like, can you believe it? And it's just a Trojan horse thing. And I think I really do. I mean, I have. My whole career has been that has been like, okay, they don't want the thing I have. What do they want? And I'll put a book cover on it that's like a different sleeve. And then by the time they're reading it, it's not. It's not total bait and switch, because, I think, like, for instance, you did the movie. The movie's great. And I know that wasn't actually your strategy, but I'm just saying, like, I feel like there's something. There's something to be taken away there.

[Julian Glander]

Yeah. I think. I definitely think in terms of building out a creative project, the idea of novelty, I think, is oftentimes a dirty word where it's. Or, you know, gimmickry or really novelty. The idea that you're doing something that is interesting because it's new or it's the first time it's been done. I think sometimes people can see that as very cheap or very. Or insubstantial. But it's also. I think it's something you can add into a project as sort of a secret spy, as MSG or something. Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You know, and it's. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

[Julian Glander]

I mean, I think, like, the thing. The thing that's going to bring people into this movie is the All Star cast, you know, and that. I don't want to say it's a.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Game, and then also that you're a guy who just made a movie. I mean, to me, from the outside, that's what's so interesting, is that you did it. You made a movie with, like, the humor and the story and the heart that a movie has, and you kind of figured out a way to do it on your own. Like, I know you didn't do it on your own, but that, to me, that's the kind of incredible thing. And I think. And especially, like, with the way that 3D has kind of evolved over the past 10 years or so, the fact that you could do that is really interesting. And so that, I think, is going to get people. I mean, is that your impression of, like, why? Because Tribeca might put it in their festival because it's good. But how do you get them to taste it first? You know what I mean?

[Julian Glander]

Well, you pay them $100, and they have to watch it all the way.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Well, that's okay. One thing. But. Yeah, but how do you open their. How do you make them? Because how many other things get submitted that maybe have a similar level of heart and humor? I don't know. How do you get them to lower your guard? I think it's something to do with the novelty of what you do.

[Julian Glander]

Well, okay, so I definitely think this isn't comprehensive as an answer to your question, but I think it's something that my producer and I were very mindful of was we want to premiere the movie at a festival that's not an animation festival. So that when these people who go through 13,000 submissions of films, when they put it on, it's just so different and that. That, you know, that it can fit into a programming block. And it's not like, you know, there's not, you know, it's not like it's fighting with something else for this one exact spot, you know, but at the same time, it has a sensibility that fits into Tribeca. Because, I mean, what I know from talking to film festival programmers is oftentimes they'll have four great films in a given year that are all about, I don't know, giraffes or something, and they can only pick one of them. That's probably not a good example. There's probably not that many people doing giraffe work right now.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It made me think of, like, you know, when there's Finding Nemo and then Shark Tail. And I know that's, again, not.

[Julian Glander]

But that's. I mean, that's also a strategy kind of like, you know, I would actually.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Love, like, Fish Are so Hot right Now. Like, that kind of thing.

[Julian Glander]

Yeah, I'd love if there was a big Pixar equivalent to this movie that was coming out at the same time. I saw something online that there was. There's a movie called. I think it's called Twisters with a Z.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Right.

[Julian Glander]

And so people are renting and thinking it's the new Twisters on, you know, and I mean, they talking about Blockbuster. That used to happen all the time. You'd go and you'd pick up, you thought it was the new Friday the 13th, and then you look a little closer. Yeah, It's Friday the 15th.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Totally different movie. Um, that. But, you know, I think that the funny or the fun thing about that is that it's not just like. I think for me personally, I can get into, like, the part about the art making that matters to me the most is the stuff that's, like, close to my heart. It's about the. You know, it's. It's inspired by the stuff that had a profound impact on me, or I had, like, a moment with it, and then I'm, you know, writing and having these, like, an experience making something. It's very, like, romantic in a way. And I think a lot of artists probably can relate to that. And what I like about what you said is you had you. There's definitely, like, a romance to what you're doing here. Like, there's. There's artistry, and then you are able to also, on top of that, have fun with the way that you thought about the strategy. Like, it doesn't have, like, the novelty and the fun and. Or the novelty doesn't have to be ruining the poetry. It can be like, okay, like, how can we get people to pay attention to this?

[Julian Glander]

Well, they're really. I mean, it's really two projects, you know, you have. And this is true. Anytime you release something, and for me, the best way to do it is to treat them as two very separate projects. And, you know, when I. When you're writing a script, I don't think you should be thinking about your Hollywood Reporter press release.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Julian Glander]

I think you do have to do it the romantic way. Yeah. And then when it's done, in this case, when the movie was kind of done in good shape, we just switched our brains and said, okay, the movie's locked, and now it's product. And now we're not going to be filmmakers anymore. We're going to be marketing people. And, I mean, I love that stuff. I think that stuff can be really fun. There's obviously a massive industry that exists because a lot of creative people don't want to do it, and I understand why. It's a lot of kind of unsexy work. It's a lot of grinding and drudgery and emailing a million people. I think the thing that I did for a long time in my career, and I think it's like, it's something that keeps you from really having a career, is just doing the work and then having this belief that it's going to sort itself out, you know?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Julian Glander]

That you can just put. That you can just finish something and just kind of put it somewhere and leave it alone. When really you actually have the opportunity to do this whole other project, which is like a fun little campaign, you know?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. I just thought of. I just recorded an episode. I don't know if it'll air before this or after, but about how. For a long time I thought about those two things as these two distinct journeys, and they're both. You know, it's like, you finish the project now, you're only in the middle of the damn marathon. It's like a bicathalon kind of thing. Um, but then recently I thought, actually when I get in the middle of, like, launching a book or something, I realize, like, oh, I'm not having to access the. The. The very difficult parts of myself that get the Good work on the page. And it can actually just be like, even. No matter. It's not really about whether it's successful or not. It can be, yeah, it's another lap, but it's a victory lap. It's like, now it's just like you're.

[Julian Glander]

Running the base thing.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yes.

[Julian Glander]

There's a temptation to deny yourself that and to say, like, for me, it's certainly. It's like, well, hey, I can either do this festival run in the fall and go and, you know, do Q&As and meet everyone and be in the room with people and watch a movie or, you know, my impulse is to get started on the next project and to actually always be working on a heavy duty project like that is exhausting and not sustainable. To finish a movie and then not even hear anyone applaud for it and then just go right into the next one is like, psychotic.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. And it's. It feels very motivated for me, I know that that would be motivated by fear. Fear of like. I don't know, what if I can't do this again? What, like, what if I.

[Julian Glander]

What if I lose my special moment where this is my time to sell it or. Yeah, yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

But that second journey, it can be. That can be where you're having fun, enjoying it, taking things from it, learning what. There's so much stuff you can. You can get from that. The other thing I want to go back on is like, I think you were talking about how the. You know, it reminds me of like, the Batman movies that were made. Starting with the toys, right? Like, the idea that you're. You're starting the movie based on what's marketable. And I actually think you're totally right about probably the easiest order to do it well is to do the art and then see, like, are there good toys in here to, like, market? Or like, are there like, tick tock so we could take out of here or whatever. But. And I think that that's probably the easiest way to do it. But I was just thinking, like, you know, you also have people like the guy who makes. Has made the few Mission Impossibles that have done really well that he starts with the trailer. And to me, I thought, like, I think both are true. I think both are the same thing, really. Which are. Are you able to separate out and do both of those things at different times, so. Because I could see it being also a challenge too, of like, okay, how could I get something in there? Now I have a prompt, but now I have to actually set down my marketing brand. That's the. That's what I think is the real challenge is can you flip in and out of those things?

[Julian Glander]

Yeah. That's obviously a special talent that I think a few people on the planet have and are really good at. I think for most of us, it's hard to flip in and out of any kind of brains. It's, you know, if I can just get into a creative state, you know, for an hour of a day, that's like an awesome day. We actually did start with kind of start with a trailer on this one, because. No, that's not true. I had written the script and then I put together a little trailer to bring the cast in. Like a little 60 second couple shots set to music. I did find it kind of helpful just to start getting my muscles moving on doing the 3D. But what I found throughout the process is the more you decide about what the project's gonna be, the more it feels like you are following someone else's instructions, even if they are your own instructions.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Explain that.

[Julian Glander]

It's like, I think I didn't do storyboards on the movie because oftentimes in my experiences, if I do storyboards for a project, everything after that just feels like I have to honor those boards. And I'm just coloring them in and it's like, just labor.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Julian Glander]

So leaving it open. We had a script, but even the script changed a lot. We did a lot of improv in the booth. And I also, like, one of my favorite things and the things that. One of the things I think really helped me move through the production of this movie is there were like, big patches in the script that just said, like, beautiful moment or like, musical number here. And I'm like, I know that this is. We're missing something. From this scene to this scene. I'm just gonna leave it for now. And then on a day when I'm like, not loving the project, I can come in and do something totally new there. So all the musical sequences in the movie.

[Andy J. Pizza]

What a hack.

[Julian Glander]

I know.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's such a good hack, though.

[Julian Glander]

I thought you were calling me a hack.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That would be something totally different.

[Julian Glander]

I was like, yeah, I've revealed myself. It's out there now. I'm a hack.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Oh, my gosh. I'm sorry. I did not foresee that. I meant, like, what a hack of getting into that brain state. It's such a good. In such a good way to get through a long project that I've never done. I've never done that. Like a life Hack like a. Keep replaying me. Say what a controlling.

[Julian Glander]

You're hitting the sound. It's like the toilet flushing sound. You pull the trap door on me and that's it. The podcast is over.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I don't know why that got me so much. Sorry about that. I was trying to frickin cheer you on because it's so good. Keep going before I just frickin derail the damn thing.

[Julian Glander]

Yeah, and also I think this is something that's nice about doing a self funded independent project. Is part of. This is. My producer is really great. She's my best friend. We've been best friends for 15 years. You know, I can call her up and say, hey, I know we're like pretty much done with this, but I want to change the ending. And she's like, yeah, okay, it's your movie. Like, you know, I'll pull whatever I need to do together to get the ending changed. You can't do that always. I mean, you can't do it when you have a client, you know, you can't do it and. But that's not, you know, to go off on another tangent. I definitely spent about a year getting the imaginary client off my shoulder. You know, the person who doesn't even exist, but is an amalgamation of every art director or producer or development person I've ever met who I know would say, you know, without spoiling anything about the movie. You can't end the movie like that, you know, or like, you can't have this scene in the middle. That's just a complete tangent. You can't put that in there just because you think it's beautiful. And it was like actually like, yeah, it was kind of a lot of work to get rid of that person and say, why am I doing this? You know, I'm doing this to make the movie that I would put on and would be special to me. So I'm the client this time.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. How do you. You know, I love that because I think it gets at. I really think that that's kind of that part of you, that character in your brain is. That's really, I think probably your ego. It's a part of you that's like self conscious Persona, whatever. And that actually was gonna end the chat today with a question about. It feels like, you know, the script and then the tone and everything about it, it just feels like you. It feels like whatever is you when you're making little Internet clips. That's that you're like, you know, I told you this last time we chatted like that you. You know, you put out some work with, like, Disney XD or something that me and my daughter watched on a loop a hundred times. I found it again. It was. It's the one where the witch is playing a song with the cat.

[Julian Glander]

Song. Witch, yes. She's doing her little Disney songs. Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And it's so good. And I can't. I can't remember how it goes, but I'm not gonna sing it anyway. But I. There's whatever the thing that's in that is expanded into this universe in a way that feels so. It reminds me of when I can get out of my own way. Like. And like you said, like, if I can do that one hour a day, it's like a crazy thing. And so I wonder, how do you. How do you think. How did you even recognize when it was the client ego thing? How do you even. Because that's even hard.

[Julian Glander]

I think it was from. I think it was from talking it out. Talking it out with my producer and then also with my wife, who was very much. I bothered her a lot with this movie. I mean, my main. One of my big motivations during production was having something to show her at the end of every day, you know, so that was part of our daily rituals. I'd work all day, and then after dinner, she would come up to the office and see what I was working on. And just like, kind of knowing that was coming and anticipating that moment was really motivating for me. And then, of course, you know, and then you're talking it out and saying, oh, you know, I really don't think this worked. Or, like, I don't think it's going to work. And then even just saying it out loud sometimes, you know, I'm talking from someone else's point of view, I'm guessing, you know, and I think, like, this is. That's a bad thing to do. Whether you're doing your own work or you're doing something for a client. I think the worst thing you can do is try to be a mind reader and try to guess what someone else is going to want. And I definitely, yeah, I see this in your work as well. It's very clear that you know what you like and you make that work, and that's priority number one. And there's always a way when you have a client to make something that you both like. And it takes back and forth, but it's so much harder to guess. It's impossible to say it's impossible. I don't like this color Palette. But I think they'll like it. Even though they didn't tell me that it's fatal. It, like, never works. And then you get cranky for no reason or. I do.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, Me too.

[Julian Glander]

Self conscious, sensitive. I don't even understand my own project.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You're feeling like I have to do this, like. And you're like, who's telling you that? Nobody's making you do this.

[Julian Glander]

It's very weird, right? It's very easy to forget why you're doing something.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's true.

[Julian Glander]

Or to just be, like, confused. Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Massive. You know, props to the people that are in creative folks life who have to watch our little things all the time. At least mine. Like the dumb things that I show my wife. At least yours was an actual movie that you're.

[Julian Glander]

Oh, come on now.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Well, I mean, look, I'm proud of a lot of the stuff I make, but there's so most days the things I'm showing, you're like, look at that. And it's so funny too. It's like I always feel like I'm a kid, like. And I always say this because I show my kids stuff too, and I'm like, look, I made that today. And they're like, cool.

[Julian Glander]

That's. I mean, a little bit harder. That's a tougher audience. Because they don't.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Tougher audience.

[Julian Glander]

But I mean, when you love someone, I know that it's like, I'm sure that when your kids draw something, you love it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Julian Glander]

Because when you love someone, you love everything they make. And so when you have someone like that in your life, it's not someone that you can use as a. As a brutal, critical focus group, but it's someone you can always go to for support, you know?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. And it's in the other. To your point, it sounds like what you were saying is as you're saying these things, it's almost that you recognize that this isn't your voice. Like you're. What you're saying. Like, wait, I don't think that.

[Julian Glander]

Yeah, it's classic. It's classic talk therapy where the other person doesn't have to say anything. You just reveal it by talking.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, it's good. That's. That makes tons of sense. So I have the other thing I wanted. I'll just real quick because I just think it's too good. When I called you a hack and I was not, was I loved. We talk a lot about on the show, like Plotter versus Pants or Improv versus Stand up and all that kind of stuff. It sounds like you had a good mix of those things, but I love the way that you mixed. It is truly a really great creative hack because there are so many books, and I really mean this. So many books that I have not made because in my mind, they're done.

[Julian Glander]

Right. And I think we've even talked about this before. This concept of a booger, which is. I have these ideas all the time where it's so done that you don't have to do it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Exactly.

[Julian Glander]

It's the. It writes itself. It's the. Oh, it's X meets Y. It's. Right. It's the stuff where it's so done in your head that it would be so unenjoyable. Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's called. What is it? Why is it called a booger?

[Julian Glander]

It's called a booger because it's like you pick it out of your nose and then you flick it away. Like it's there in your brain, but it's too done.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, dude, I. And how did you. Did you. Was it an intuitive thing that you did that? Like, were you just like, oh, okay, I'm going to leave a blank here. I'm going to leave. Like. It's literally like your, you know, your inner child is that playful, creative part. It's literally like setting up games for yourself throughout the process.

[Julian Glander]

Yeah, I think what it was was more when things started really moving was after I'd written the first draft and we started setting up the recording sessions, then we had a hard date to move towards. And then what happened was it was time to prioritize what we needed in the sessions with the actors. And so, you know, we were up against the movie, took three to four years to make, and we were really up against the clock at every stage we recorded with our actors. Like, as the strike was starting last summer, like, I think we got our last session the day before. The strike was going to start at midnight. So we were powering through that. And so what it was was we're looking at the script and saying, okay, I just need to get the dialogue. And then if there's an action sequence or a musical sequence, it's triaged for now. So part of it is just necessity because the other option would have been, hey, the strike is coming. Maybe that's a sign to wait until next year. And I think just knowing myself and how much focus I can put into something, that would have probably killed the project.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, that's a tricky tightrope right there. Because I constantly am constantly trying to find the line between you know, pushing myself and not biting off more than I can chew, because I am a. I think there's, I think a lot of people would push you to be like, believe in yourself. Shoot big. But there is a side of me where I'm like, you know, when I do that too much, I end up doing nothing. And that, that is a, that's a tricky thing. But okay, so I wanted to just get you to talk a little bit about how do you maybe like the main story beats of how someone who, 10 years ago I nudged you to do a collaboration for a random client project for Facebook, like making gifts for social.

[Julian Glander]

That's right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And then now you have a film. Like, what, what are the. How do. How. What are the pieces of that story?

[Julian Glander]

I think it is. Well, it's crazy because it feels like it's happened very fast. It feels like 10 years has gone by really quickly. But obviously that's a really long time. And I think if you had told me in 2014, oh, you'll have a feature film out in 10 years, I'd be like, no, I'm going to have a feature film out in three years. You know, I like, I was so impatient.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Julian Glander]

And it's. But exactly, it's. To your point, it's trying to jump from whatever you know how to do, which is drawings, to like something much bigger is impossible. It. So basically, you know, how it worked for me is it was one little step at a time. Right when we met, there was that craze around gifts where it was every brand needed to be posting GIFs every day and so they were commissioning a lot of art. And that's kind of how I entered into the, whatever you would call it, the commercial creative field. It's just like a moment when there was a lot of demand and not a lot of people doing it. And then from doing GIFs, it was just stepping a little bigger each time. After a GIF would be a 15 second animation with some music. And then after that would be maybe a one minute thing, a bumper after that a three minute short film that goes to festivals, you know, and each of these steps is taking a year at a time, which in the life of a 23 year old is like infinite time, you know, and then it's like, okay, from the three minute shorts, I worked on some TV shows and then I directed a 10 minute episode of this show called Summer Camp island on HBO Max. Uh, and I think my feeling after that was, well, if I did 10 minutes, this is probably the biggest leap there Is. Is to go from 10 to 90 and there's nothing in the middle. You know, there's not really like a 40 minute thing that makes any sense. You know, like. Yeah. So I just, I said, let me try to make a, Make a episode of TV 10 times in a row. And in some ways it was actually easier. A lot of parts of it were easier than just 9x. And then some things were infinitely harder. I think creating a story that holds together for 90 minutes is a lot harder than creating a story that holds for 10 minutes. Because within the beginning, middle and end, you just have so many little pieces and things that go up that need to come down and things need to be satisfied and things that can't be too open ended and things have to be a little open ended. Yeah. I spent, I spent forever writing this. I spent like more than half the time writing the script in terms of the whole timeline of the movie. Like probably two years writing it and then a little less than two years producing it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. And, you know, and it's hard because there's, there's also all these mo. All these things about how pacing. I think a lot about how when we watch tv, watch movies, listen to a podcast versus audiobook, you know, we approach it with a bias that there's a. There's a degree in which you can't escape, that there's a. It need. We. It needs to play by some of those rules for it to feel right. So there's, there's all kinds of things there. But I was going to say, I love what you said about taking these little steps. The exact same thing happened to me in a, In a smaller way to making books. Like, I remember when I was 18, I couldn't imagine having the creative stamina to create a book. And some people think like, that's ridiculous, like it's not a huge feat. But for me, I just knew like, man, like 50 pages, like, holy. That's so much.

[Julian Glander]

Well, it is actually so much.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I mean, it feels like a lot to me. But I think that, I think you're one of the things I, I think I see going back and I see in that is this idea of like, you know, the thing that gets thrown around that I don't think there's. I think it's just kind of an abstract idea, but the 10,000 hours thing. And if you really like break down 10,000 hours, it's a ton of time. It's way more time than you think it would be. And I think if you said to childhood, you or childhood me. Like, these things that you're gonna go do, you take 10,000 hours to get there, you'd be like, okay, I can't do that. If it's.

[Julian Glander]

I'm not doing that. I got. I'm gonna play video games for 10,000 hours. I'm gonna. Yeah, exactly. I think the implication in a theory like that is that those 10,000 hours are going to be brutal and unenjoyable and a slog and, like, exercise, and.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You'D have nothing to show for it.

[Julian Glander]

You have 10,000 hours, and you're a genius. Yeah, but it's quite the opposite. Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And I think, you know, to your point of your story, it might take 10,000 hours to make a movie that. But it takes a fraction of that to make a gif. And if you can break down that race into little, tiny sprints, and then they start compounding over time, and you get to these really interesting places, and I think that that's the. That's what's. So. That's been so powerful to me, to break down my. My journey into little projects. And they compounded where back when I started, like, doing a character every day that took me 30 minutes to two hours was like, I'll never do this. This is. I can't. I don't have the stamina and mental, you know, endurance to do that. And now, you know, the podcast is, like, 10 different habits. And I've been doing that for 10 years, like, and it. And so I. I think that. Yeah, I feel like that it's. I love your story because I think it's a testament to breaking it down into chunks, doing projects, having something to show for it, and shows how far you can go if you keep doing that.

[Julian Glander]

Well, it is. Yeah, I think it's true. I think almost everybody is capable of more than they think. You know, I think. I think people are closer to doing what they want to do than they realize. A lot of times, I think, for everyone, breakthroughs are right around the corner, and a lot of it is about digging around. I also. I was not moving in a straight line towards this by any means. You know, I was not on a calculated path to have a movie at Tribeca. This is just, like. It's very much been one step at a time, and there's also been a lot of sort of tangents and offshoots that felt like they weren't going anywhere that have come back into this. You know, being in a band is a perfect example. I started a band with my friend Payson. We played a number of shows around Brooklyn. It really didn't take. It really was not something anyone wanted. And so, you know, it was 10 years ago. Put that aside. Now she's the producer on my movie because we learned how to work together back then, loading in drum kits and stuff. And yeah, I got my music in the movie because I learned how to play instruments. And it's like. And you know, every little piece of this movie and every little piece of whatever I do next is going to be culminating on that, on that stuff that felt like a waste of time or just fun.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Hey, in case you don't know, we have a monthly live virtual meetup every last Monday of the month with supporters of the show from Patreon and Substack. We have so much fun on these calls and they are the warmest, most encouraging creatives that I have ever met. And we also talk real creative practice stuff. We have authors, illustrators, lettering artists, picture book makers, fine artists, musicians, and folks that work in video and film as well. And we have people that are just starting out, people super established in their creative careers and everything in between. For the rest of this year, we're going to chat through our new Journey of the Truth fan series, exploring questions and ways to apply these ideas to your own creative practice so that you can leave 2024 stronger than you came in with more visibility, connection with your audience, and sales. Sign up to whichever suits you best@ either patreon.com creativepeptalk or andyjpizza.substack.com and I hope to see you at this month's meetup. The other thing that comes to mind is as you're working through the script, it got me thinking around how intimidating writing is for a lot of people, a lot of creative people, especially a lot of visual art people or even actors like writing. And yet to me, I wish I would have got into writing much earlier because that substance ends up emanating into so much more interesting things like style. And all the, everything ends up coming from that. And then even the opportunities that you didn't write come from those writings. And like, and it's just the, like, the generation generating stuff like that is such a huge, it's just, it's so gratifying in the process. Was the script. Did it feel like that? Were you having like these moments with it? I mean, I'm sure it wasn't all.

[Julian Glander]

Gravy, but it was pretty gravy, actually. I think I maybe I think I liked it too much, really. I think this is Where I think I'm very different from every other illustrator I know, which is actually don't like drawing and doodling and it's like, you know, in a lot of ways, I'm.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Kind of like this too.

[Julian Glander]

What I do in 3D is really not like drawing at all. You know, it's a lot more like construction or playing with Legos or architecture or something else. So my background is in creative writing. I went to school for it. I started out my career working at ad agency. I wanted to be a copywriter. So, yeah, I like words. And yeah, I think, like, I liked writing the script too much. I could have just done it forever because part of it is, it feels very safe and intimate because you kind of know that unlike a novel or even a blog post, no one's ever actually going to see the script. Like, it's just the under skeleton for something else. And so you can put ideas in there, you can honestly, you can spell stuff wrong, you can get stuff wrong, you know, and it feels very free. It's also, compared to writing prosecutors, it's easy to feel productive because a page of a script does not actually have that much on it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

What a point.

[Julian Glander]

That's like, it's like 10 lines of dialogue and a couple descriptions and you've done a page.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And that's encouraging.

[Julian Glander]

Yeah, for me, it's like, what I think about is like, I read some statistics, I'll get the number wrong, but it's like the amount of text that you write in emails every month, it obviously varies from person to person, but I think we have all probably written a novel's worth of emails at this point. You know, we all have the practice.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That'S really encouraging and super depressing at the same time.

[Julian Glander]

It is, but it's like, you know, you have the muscle memory. Everyone could type pretty fast and, you know, it also, it's like if you can think of it that way as just generation, it doesn't have to be perfect. Yeah, but no, I love this. I would have. I would write the script forever because it's also like, it's the most perfect version of the movie where you can just write, you know, you can write whatever you want and you can write out the most expensive scene ever and it doesn't cost you anything. And then you've handed you hand that problem off to. To either yourself, later, unfortunately, in this.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Case, to you later, future.

[Julian Glander]

And again, I think this is where you have to treat each project separate, where you say, that person will figure it out. And because we didn't do everything that we had in the script. We can talk about that a little bit. But yeah, once the script is done, then it gets handed off.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Okay. There were some other threads that I wanted to pick up on, but tell me about that first, because what didn't you do in the script?

[Julian Glander]

Well, we've. We talked about shortcuts before. Yeah. And I think like one of the big ones in this movie. Now that you've seen it, I wonder if you notice this a lot.

[Andy J. Pizza]

This is the thing you told me to look out for, which I never would have seen if you hadn't highlighted. So, yeah, I'm excited to get into this.

[Julian Glander]

Several hundred people have seen the movie so far. One person who's an animator pointed out, they said, I love how nobody walks in the movie. And basically it's like, you know, in animation, the walk cycle is historically a very time and labor intensive part of animation because there are a lot of bones at work and everyone knows exactly what walking looks like. So, yeah, to look at a big animation studio, they're spending millions of dollars just making sure everyone's walking right. And because we didn't have that, the options were either do a bad version or find something else. So in this movie, the main character is on a swag way, which I really like because it kind of sets up the time the movie is taking place. It sets up where he is in terms of culture and class. And then it also, I think it sells his character because it's this sort of ghostly floating motion that kind of undersell or, you know, kind of sells the way he's floating through life. And I think it's funny, but it was the easiest thing ever to animate. And, you know, we have characters skateboarding. We have one character that's in this sort of robot suit. We have characters popping up from behind a fence, like the neighbor from Home Improvement. Characters that never get out of their car. Or, you know, one of Julio's characters is just a door. It's like a face in a door.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I love those too. I love that. And the. In the character in the car and I love. And then you have just like. If I. If you hadn't have highlighted that to me, and I would see the only one, one of the only characters that like kind of walks is just a quirky farmer. And you just think, oh, that's like his weird quirky walk. Like he like shuffles over the ground. And I was like, yeah, okay. But I was like, I knew to look for it. I was like, oh, that's good. That's funny. And it's also just funny. Like it's. And it makes it. It's an interesting choice.

[Julian Glander]

Well, there's, you know, those are the best creative things you can have. I'm sure you've experienced these moments where it's like, oh, something wasn't working for me. And at 11:59, before it was before time, I had the. I had the easiest shortcut ever. That actually was better. Was funny.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes.

[Julian Glander]

I spent an entire day trying to get two characters to walk down a flight of stairs and instead they just take a little elevator instead and it's like, fine.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes. How did you think what. So were you aware of that this like, obstacle of like characters walk cycles, how expensive and how impossible that was going to be? Were you aware of that going into this? And you thought, how did you come up with the idea of getting around it that way?

[Julian Glander]

No, I think it was. It was more real time problem solving. It was more. I wanted the main character on a bicycle. And I was just, you know, I mean, I think it's like, it's one of the recalibrations you have to do is say, I'm having a really bad time doing this animation. You know, I'm really not enjoying it. I'm trying for an hour and then I'm stopping and going and getting a snack. And it's like, this isn't how it's supposed to be. And it was, you know, I mean, again, we're on a really tight schedule. There's like 90 scenes in the movie and for the rough animation stage, we did a scene a day. So, you know, there's really not a lot of time to dilly dally and get super technical. And if something's not working, again, what I like to do is just try something as placeholder. And there's a lot of stuff in the movie that was placeholder. That's good enough. Some of it's. Some of it wasn't, you know, some of it we went back to. But a lot of it is like, what if I do something cheap and silly instead? And what if. What if instead of trying to cover something up on a technical side, I zoom in on it and sell it as comedy?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, I love that because I. It reminds me of two things I love the idea of. This is a whole. This. Maybe this will be our CTA for the show. We always end with like homework, basically, like things you can do with the stuff that we talked about. And I think do a project where your whole mentality is placeholder. It's just like, okay, well, just this. Placeholder. Placeholder. And because it reminds me of two things. Reminds me of, like, this. All of the hit songs that were written with someone just saying, all right, it's kind of like Sue Studio kind of thing. And then, like. And that. Oh, well, why don't we just keep that? Like, I kind of like that. You know, these. There's tons of stories you hear of, like, musicians off the cuff, just randomly, like, all right, Placeholder there. Or Judd Apatow talks about it. Like, script one rough draft is putting sand into the sandbox, not building a castle. Yes. Yeah.

[Julian Glander]

That's such a good. Yeah. Place. And again, placeholder, I think, is something that has a bad rap.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Julian Glander]

I think we all know if you see placeholder, if you spot placeholder in a finished project, it's ugly and lazy and bad. But it's a. It's a fictional designation. You know, something that might be placeholder to you might be someone's favorite thing ever.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. That. And. And, I mean, first of all, I just have to say, I don't know if I told you this, but, um, you know, I really want to get. I've had some opportunities that haven't fully materialized, and I've. I've always want. Like, when I first started doing the characters that became invisible things, like, I was inspired primarily by tv, like Fraggle Rock. Like, that was my main. Wait.

[Julian Glander]

Oh, I got to. I gotta say yes. Before we get completely off the topic.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes.

[Julian Glander]

Is it when I was talking about the characters walking or not walking?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Julian Glander]

The biggest inspiration There was this YouTube video I saw about the Muppets, because that is something they did so well, is you watch the Muppets. It never crosses your mind that none of their legs are moving and that they are all. That they all have a hand up inside them, you know, and it's always. They're sitting on a lily pad.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You could have chose any other way to talk about that.

[Julian Glander]

And that was exactly. They're so real to us.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Julian Glander]

And they've done so many clever concealments. So. Yeah, I was. I was definitely in a what would Jim Henson do? Mindset for a lot of that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes. And that's. Yeah. I mean, it's even down to. I mean. Yes. Like, they're hiding their legs 90% of the time. Most people never even think about that. Really. Not to mention that if you're. If you're telling the story right, or your characters are compelling or whatever. Like, I mean, maybe it takes a Certain type of person, like, you know, like me to think. I rarely think about the fact that, like you said, there's a hand up inside of this cloth. I'm thinking, like, I'm not thinking that. So think about that level of logic leap. And then you're all. You're asking to not think much about the fact that these characters are all on devices riding around like, that's so much smaller of a thing to sell. And yet that's the reason why so many people didn't make a movie.

[Julian Glander]

Well, right. Because they. There is this person out there. At some point, someone's going to see this movie and they will understand every technical flaw and every shortcut. It's like, yeah, you can't make a movie for that person because they are the Grinch. You know, they're like. They're that little 1% of 1% of the audience who's just kind of doesn't know how to watch a movie. But when you're making the stuff and you see the behind the scenes, you become that person. Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. And I. I don't know.

[Julian Glander]

I actually. I don't even have a. I don't have anything to say to get out of it because it's like, I do it all the time still. I still watch the movie and I cringe at parts of it that no one else notices.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Sure. And. And it's. And again, that's that. That voice that, you know, like, okay, some critic for whatever reason is gonna do that. And that's the client voice. That's the ego voice. And getting around that person is. Is really key to getting something on the page. I'm glad you brought that back up because I wanted to. I wanted to say one more element because I know we talked about this last time we chatted about getting around walk cycles. And I started thinking about how it's. I do this a lot and it's very like business bro talks a lot about 80, 20 rule. But I think it's actually good. I think this is a good thought. And I. And when you look at the animation budget of a film and you think 80% roughly spent on the walk cycles, getting them right. Like, but they're not only contributing to 20% of the vibe, you know, or 20% of the payoff. Like, if you can look at those projects and you can say, what are the projects you really, really want to do? And what's the thing that's like standing in the way? Like, is that a huge contributing factor to the quality of the thing or is It. The part that matters to you. There are some people who. They got into animation because of walks, walk cycles. That's true. Like, and they're all about that, so they can't skip that. But there could be writing songs that they don't do. You know what I mean? Yeah. So there's. So I think that it's just a real. And. Oh, and the other thing I thought was, did you. Is swag way your thing or is that a thing?

[Julian Glander]

I think people were saying it because when the hoverboards were really popular.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Okay.

[Julian Glander]

But, yeah, it's not a. Somebody was like, are you going to get sued for using the word swagger? I was like, come on, it's not a real thing. I don't think so. I think it's just. It was like a colloquial term. Yeah. I thought everyone.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I don't know if I'd heard it, and I was cracking up at it, and I thought maybe I was like, it's kind of vaguely familiar, but still, in any context, they came and went.

[Julian Glander]

I mean, you don't really see those things anymore. Those little hoverboards. I think they all exploded.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And I. And I thought this was my addition because this. This notion of getting around the obstacle. Ryan Holiday calls the Obstacle is the Way. And then I thought I could title the episode Obstacle is the Swag.

[Julian Glander]

Oh, that's so good.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Right? Yes. So, yeah, I think. And. But I think that there was. There's another piece I wanted to talk about. Unless you had something I don't want to.

[Julian Glander]

Well, I kind of do have something here.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, go.

[Julian Glander]

But it's mostly just a rephrasing of what you said. But I think it's true. I mean, I think coming. Really coming from DIY and doing shows and that kind of stuff, I think one of the kind of core values you have there is. Right. There's always another way, and there's always a free way. Like, whatever you want, there's a way to get it that's free, like. Or there's a solution that's free, like, for us. And it's like, again, writing is free. A good voice performance is not free. But, you know, it costs the same as a bad voice performance. Yeah. And again, I think, like, I don't know how much time we even have to talk about this, but it's like my voice actors on this movie completely saved the day because the way. The reason you can sit there and watch my animation for 90 minutes is because they are so. Every single one of them is Just, like, so captivating.

[Andy J. Pizza]

They were great. And not to. I mean, don't sell yourself short. Yes, you do. Like a lo fi kind of 3D thing. Like, it's always been kind of your thing, but it's gorgeous too. Like, I really do feel like there were tons of times where, like. Because I went into it thinking, I always love. I love the aesthetic of your style. Your taste is great. I. You make great art. And. But I also expected, like, it to be a little bit, I don't know, more lo fi, in a way, when really it's like there were tons of times where I was like, dude, the. The colors and the lighting and the way that it's working is just, like, gorgeous. And I got real. There were several moments where I was like, dude, this is like. There's especially the. Like, these are probably the part of the script that were, like, beautiful thing here. Like, those moments were doing the trick.

[Julian Glander]

So it worked. The script worked well. I'm glad to hear you say that. Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Julian Glander]

But I do think the cast is, like, what makes it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Oh, and they're great.

[Julian Glander]

I mean, it's like such a beautiful layer on top of it. Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Is it Chris Fleming, the hot dog?

[Julian Glander]

Is the hot dog guy? Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That whole scene is hilarious.

[Julian Glander]

It's so good if people don't know Chris Fleming's work. I feel like at this point, everyone's probably seen him on Instagram or TikTok, but he does these just so there's such intense, like, monologues in his car where he's just, like, talking a mile a minute and every word he says is hysterical. And he is like. He'll cram, like, three or four like, brilliant insights into one sentence. So when he came in, we had him for an hour and I was like. I was pretty nervous. I was like, what if he is a dud? Like, what if. What if that. What if everything we've seen is, like, actually takes a lot of practice and, like, is.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You never know.

[Julian Glander]

You never. You never know with a. But he came in and it was like I was dying. He was. He had his script in front of him. We read through it one time as written, and then past that, he was just like, improv ing. So I think everything in the. Everything. His character, he plays a. Yeah. He plays a man who lives inside the world's largest hot dog. And it's like. It's very much a philosophical kind of Richard Linklatery character who's just like, musing about the world while the main character is waiting for his Hot dogs. But yeah, he was a beast. I mean, he was. And I was just dying, like. And you can hear me laughing in a lot of the takes, like from the other side of the recording booth. You can just hear like a little like high pitched laughing where I'm like gonna pass out.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That is incredible. And I had two thoughts. 1. But right before I jumped on here, I thought about what if I did a bit where all the way through this whole thing I'm like doing my questions in different silly voices.

[Julian Glander]

Oh, you're auditioning.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Auditioning for the next movie. And then I thought that, oh, man, I lost it. But I was. Oh, I know. I was just thinking as you were. As we were talking about. Oh, the hot dog guy. Yeah. I was thinking we could also record another interview sometime where it's just performance art and there is no movie because right now no one's seen this. So we could literally just do a whole. You're like, wait until you say it's going to be at the festivals, streaming, like way in the future. But you know, in the hot dog and the catfish guy.

[Julian Glander]

And we're just making stuff up the whole time. That's really good.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, it's real.

[Julian Glander]

It does. It does kind of feel like that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It does a little bit. There's so many funny and we didn't even get into so much. I mean, it's way weirder than what we're even saying.

[Julian Glander]

It is, isn't it?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Julian Glander]

That's kind of good though. I think people kind of just need to see it before, you know.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, it's very my. It's very my taste and. And I had such a great time. The last thing I wanted to talk to you about was. Did you tell me that? Did I really can't remember if you said that you legitimately have a pet duck.

[Julian Glander]

I have two pet ducks.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Okay, so you really. I didn't misremember.

[Julian Glander]

This is.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I knew you were talking about ducks to me, but I was like, I was talking my wife. Did he say he had a pet duck? And she's like, yeah, he has a pet duck. And I was like, okay, so you have a pet duck?

[Julian Glander]

Yeah, I have two pet ducks. Sleepy and Sneezy.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Nice.

[Julian Glander]

They're awesome. They're great pets. I think. I think more people should get ducks.

[Andy J. Pizza]

So you're going to get the rest of the whole crew. If you get sleepy and Sneezy, you have to.

[Julian Glander]

Exactly. Room for five more. And what I want to do is get all five of those and then I want A sheep. And the sheep is snow white.

[Andy J. Pizza]

So how do you have that? That's great. How do you have these ducks?

[Julian Glander]

Well, it's. It's basically the same as. Okay, it's the same as backyard chickens. You have a little coop in your backyard, and they just live there, and they lay eggs every morning. And that's kind of it. They're very sweet and social and extremely funny.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Oh, I love it. I love ducks. And you. And the reason I think it came up last time you said something about how you were just, like, thinking about how ducks come out, knowing how to duck and humans don't. Is that what you're saying?

[Julian Glander]

Yeah. I mean, it was something that was on my mind a lot when I was raising them. Is they. Yeah, they're perfect. They come out of the egg and they're, like, little. They're just machines. Like, they just will live their entire life following these perfect impulses that tell them exactly what to do. And it's like, the other day, there was a neighborhood cat in the yard, and it's like, even though they had never seen a cat before, they knew what to do. Like, their instincts to run away from the cat were exactly right. And right as people, we are born pretty much useless, and we have to learn everything, and it takes a really long time. And then it's also like, well, aren't you glad it's that way? Like, aren't you glad that, like, 10 years ago you didn't know you'd be doing this? Or, like, if you woke up and you were doing the exact life that you had planned out for yourself, that would be really unsatisfying. Or that would be not the reason to become a creative person. So I guess my. My insight there would be to leave yourself open to learn and grow. Not just. Not just in, like, a macho way of just, like, I'm going to get better at drawing or writing or whatever, but, like, to grow in ways that you didn't even expect.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Basically. As you're writing the script of your life, make sure you have big swaths for pages that just say beautiful stuff there.

[Julian Glander]

Wow.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Right now.

[Julian Glander]

Andy, that was good. That was good.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's true, man. Though, I honestly, you touched me. Like, I was thinking, like, I do such a shitty job of doing what you just described, and there are so many, like, twists and turns that happened in my life that I couldn't have seen coming that are the literally the best, juiciest parts. And it's just like. Just like what you said.

[Julian Glander]

Well, I don't Think you do that shitty of a job?

[Andy J. Pizza]

I do a shitty job of over planning. That's what I'm saying. I got, I think, okay, you know, I've got. And it's an anxiety thing, you know, and I, like. I said, I like the plotter thing was a learned behavior and it served me well. I'm proud and that I learned how to, you know, start with the end in mind, both in career stuff and story stuff and all that, like. But it can become a crutch and a complete anxiety.

[Julian Glander]

It's. I think it's a grass is always greener thing. I think, you know, you have to pick a way that you're going to be. And then I think, obviously think you should look around and I see I'm looking at you and you're surrounded by, like, your books and your art and your creations and stuff. I definitely think you should take a moment to not be so hard on yourself and be grateful for the person that you are then the brain that you have that got you where you are, because it's an awesome place.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And I, you know, I really appreciate that. And I also think. But the point's taken. I think creating those spaces to be surprised is so. Is so huge. And I feel like that's what I need right now too, because this is in some ways, some of the things that I've done are either what I planned didn't go to plan, or it went exactly to plan, but the plan's over and now it's the next things that's about. You are.

[Julian Glander]

No, not at all. I'm still very much in the middle of kind of dealing with this movie, you know, distributing it and going to festivals, but I don't at all feel like, oh, that went exactly how I planned basically at no stage, you know, it doesn't. The movie doesn't look or feel like I thought it would, you know, it didn't. I didn't think it would premiere at Tribeca. I didn't think it would go to play at an airport in Japan. And yeah, I have. At this point, I'm completely lost. I have no.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It'd be hilarious if that was on your vision board, though.

[Julian Glander]

Just like, oh, this would be an.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Airport in Japan in 2025. That would be something. Dude, I literally could talk to you forever. I am so. I am so grateful to be able to chat with you because right back at you. It's. Honestly, it's so fun and it's all the kind of stuff that I just love thinking about and talking About. So thank you. And hopefully come back another time.

[Julian Glander]

Thank you. I'll come back tomorrow if you want. Any time.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, just start a whole other podcast.

[Julian Glander]

Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

This was great. Thanks, man.

[Julian Glander]

Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Massive thanks to Julian Glander for taking so much time to chat with me. I honestly, I haven't had such a good time in so long. I was just through the roof. And you, you've got to check out Julian's work. Go follow him on. On Instagram Glanderco over there. Check out his website. Just search Julian Glander and it'll come up. So much inspiring goodness. And it really helped me tap back into my creative side instead of getting so locked into the business and the practice of it all. But really remember why I do this in the first place and how fun it can be to make stuff up, which is creative writing at its core. I told you I'd be back with a creative call to adventure. This is the obstacle is the swag way. This is find a swag way call to adventure. The idea here is just essentially realizing that just like in every story, the conflict is essential. Not because we just need tension in our stories, because I don't need tension in my life, but because the tension in your life, in your story isn't there to make it juicy. It's there to teach you a lesson that the conflict is the way in which you don't get what you want. It blocks what you want, but it gives you what you need. And the only way for you to find that lesson from the conflict is by embracing the conflict is saying, okay, I don't live in New York City, I don't live in la. And for whatever reason, my circumstance means I can't. But I want to make a film or I want to be an actor, or I want to be in television. Like, how? Don't ignore that fact. Don't try to hide that fact, but instead start thinking about, what does it mean that I am going to make a movie from Ohio? What does it mean to embrace that limitation? For me personally, this has happened over and over again where when I went to go make a podcast, instead of thinking, all right, I'm going to go interview people, I knew that the Internet connection I had at home wasn't going to be good enough to do interviews. I didn't really understand how to do that. I had all of these obstacles, and for the longest time, it just meant that I didn't make a podcast. And then eventually I realized, like, oh, I could record on my iPhone, like the microphone on the phone, even 10 years ago was pretty good, was good enough to get started. And that was one of the reasons why I started the show as a monologue show and that became its calling card for a long time. And the same goes for my creative practice at the start. When I first started, I wanted to make band posters, but I couldn't get anybody to teach me in the place where my college was to screen print on paper. And I didn't know anything about it. So instead I made an indie rock coloring book. And it ended up being this obstacle, this reason why I didn't belong, this reason why I couldn't participate became the reason, became the creative fodder for how I created something that busted through the pack that, that, that stood out from everybody else. And so my encouragement to you is don't pretend like that obstacle, that thing that counts you out, the thing that stops you from doing what you're trying to do. Don't pretend like it doesn't exist. Don't write it off as nothing. Get really real about what are the things that are really holding me back from what I want as a creative person? And how can they be the delivery method? How can they be the swag way? How can they be the thing that makes my creative project unique and different? And the only way you can do that is by embracing it instead of ignoring it. Creative Pep Talk is a weekly podcast designed to help you build a thriving creative practice. But that's the thing. It only works if it's an actual practice. It has to become a habit. We make this show every single week so that your creativity can go from being a thing that you do sometimes to a creative discipline, to immerse you in a world of creatives that are doing the same, where those kind of behaviors are normal. One way we help you stick to this is by sending you the new episodes via email to your inbox every single week so that you never miss a week. And we often add bonus content like pictures and links and extra related stuff to the episode that you not going to get just from the apps. Go to andyjpizza.substack.com to sign up to the free email newsletter and I'll have the accountability to stay on the creative path and keep this streak going and hopefully it will inspire you to do the same. And if you sign up right now, you'll get immediate free access to our ebooklet the Creative Career Path. It's a step by step roadmap for creating a project that is designed to unlock your dream creative clients and opportunities. Sign [e-mail] and let's keep this creative habit together. Creative Pep Talk is part of the Podglomerate Network. You can learn more about Podglomerate at www.podglomerate.com. this has been another episode of Creative Pep Talk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. Hey, it's dangerous to go alone. Take this podcast with you week in and week out by subscribing to the show to keep you company and keep the best creative practices top of mind so that little by little, weekend and week out, you can make progress in your own creative practice. I'm your host, AJ Pizza. I'm a New York Times Best selling author and illustrator and I make this show not because I have it all figured out, but because as a squishy creative artist type that's prone to big emotions, it takes a whole lot of creativity to just get out of bed sometimes. So every week I put out the ideas that are helping me stay disciplined and stay excited and have helped me stay on this creative path for the past 15 years plus in hopes that it might help someone else or at the very least help them feel less alone on their own creative journey. Massive thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for our theme music, thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for editing and sound design, thanks to Sophie Miller for podcast assistance of all sorts, and most importantly, thanks to you for listening and until we speak again, stay pepped up. Hey y'all, one more quick thing. Earlier this year I rebuilt my website using Squarespace's new Fluid engine and I was so pumped about how it turned out that I have been really thrilled to find as many ways to partner with them and tell you about what they can do and bring you discounts as possible. With social media going haywire, I think having a site that feels as unique as your creative work is essential to building trust with your target audience or your clients. I have had several clients point out how cohesive and fresh my site looks lately and if you want to check that out and what I was able to do without any code, check out andyjpizza.com if you want to test it out. Go to squarespace.com pep talk to test it out yourself and when you're ready to launch, use promo code pep talk for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks Squarespace for supporting the show and for supporting creative people.

[Julian Glander]

I did consider Barney a friend and.

[Andy J. Pizza]

He'S still a friend to this day.

[Julian Glander]

The idea of Barney is something that I want to live up to. You know I love you, you love me. I call it the Purple Mantra. Barney taught me how to be a man.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Generation Barney. A podcast about the media we loved as kids and how it shapes us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.