← Creative Pep Talk
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- [00:03]
Andy J. Pizza
On the creative journey, it's easy to get lost, but don't worry, you'll lift off. Sometimes you just need a creative pep talk. Hey, you're listening to Creative Pep Talk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. I'm your host, Andy J. Pizza. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and illustrator and this show is just everything I'm learning about building and maintaining a thriving creative practice. Let's get into it. Miro is a collaborative virtual workspace that sinks in real time for you and your team so that you can innovate an idea into an outcome seamlessly. We talk a lot on this show about the idea of how creative research shows that playing with the problem is essential to innovation. Now, when I think of play, I don't think of documents and email, so if your team is often working remote, you need something more dynamic and collaborative. I think that Miro's mind maps and flow charts, where team members can edit and play in real time, has a lot more capacity for innovation and playing with the process than traditional ways of collaborating over the Internet. Whether you work in innovation, product design, engineering, ux, Agile or it, bring your teams to Miro's revolutionary Innovation Workspace and be faster. From idea to outcome. Go to miro.com to find out how. That's M I R O.com I'm a believer in the idea of dressing for the job you want, not the job you have. And I have applied this to my creative practice too, which means if you want professional results, you need to present online like a pro. And that means going beyond social media and having a professional website that reflects your style and looks legit. I rebuilt my site this year with Squarespace's Fluid Engine and was so happy with how easily I could build my vision without coding that when they approached me to support the show I jumped at the chance because I love and use this product. So go check it out squarespace.com peptalk to test it out for yourself. And when you're ready to launch your site, use promo code PEP talk all one word all caps for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks goes out to Squarespace for supporting the show and supporting creators all over the world. Today, Brad and Christy Montague are on the show. I'm very excited for you to hear. Brad has been a long time friend and Internet buddy supporter of my work. We've been friends for a long time. Brad was on an earlier episode, a much earlier episode of this show, episode 72 I believe. It was one of the first guests on the show. And Brad is an excellent guy. And him and his wife Christie have been making some incredible picture books. You might know them from their gorgeous, heartwarming kids books like Fantastic Bureau of Imagination or their New York Times bestseller, the Circles All Around Us. You also might know Brad from his web series Kid President from back in the day. And in my estimation, Kid President is one of the most hilarious, inspired, and successful creative things to ever live on the Internet. I'm talking billions of views, collaborative episodes with freaking Steve Carell and Beyonce and Obama, for goodness sakes. Like, this thing was just an incredible force and for so much good and light on the often very dark Internet. And in the past few years, Brad and Christy have been really focused on making wonderful picture books. And I wanted to have them on the show for a couple of reasons. First of all, they have a new picture book out called Bail O Bration. It's hilarious and also just really powerfully illustrates a key concept from this show and from the book Mindset by Dr. Carol Dweck. It illustrates the idea of the growth mindset so well, and we talk about that idea so often on this show that I had to have Mon to talk about it. And I think it's an amazing thing to bring this idea to life through a story for the target age range of the picture book because it's such a make or break concept, both to creative people, but also to kids and also just humans everywhere. And I think learning to embrace failure is such a game changer, and it's something I need reminded of all the time. The second reason I wanted to have them on the show is because I don't know anybody that makes picture books in such a similar fashion to the collaborative process that Sophie and I have. My wife, Sophie and I, they make books in a very similar fashion. And I was just desperate to compare notes and see what I could learn from them about how they collaborate and see what other kind of lessons and ideas we could pull out. Because that collaboration in my own practice has been a complete game changer. Some of the best things I've ever made, some of the things I'm most proud of have come through that. But it hasn't been easy. It's been enlightening. It's been sometimes it's been easy, and often it's really just magical. But it can also be really difficult. And so I wanted to talk to them about it, see what they had learned. And we have so many powerful takeaways on the collaborative front in this chat. Stay tuned until the end of this episode for a creative call to adventure. I'm calling it the first word on how to approach your creative work in the opposite way that most people do, and by doing so, making your art something that people integrate into their lives on a deeper level and become the agent for spreading your work throughout communities online and in real life. And I think there's an important shift that we talk about in this episode that can really help you make work that spreads instead of trying to make stuff that is the final word on what you're doing. We'll get to that later, but for now, let's get to my chat with Brad and Christy Montague. Honestly, I love the new book. It is so funny, and it feels so much like your spirits. I'm like, I loved your other books. They're great. This one has that comedy, though, of that I don't know, or something about failure that is just right in your comedy wheelhouse. And it was fun, and it's growth mindset, and I just freaking love it. So, first of all, I wanted to.
- [08:09]
Brad Montague
Just say that, well, there's compliments, and then there's confidence from you people that I love and have known me for a long time. And. Yeah, and you know what this is like, too. You make stuff until it starts to kind of feel, like closer to what's inside you and around you. You've done that a lot.
- [08:33]
Christy Montague
Oh, completely. Yeah.
- [08:35]
Andy J. Pizza
And I wondered if that was the case for you, too, like, if it felt. Because, I mean, your heart and soul are in your previous picture books. But there's something about reading this that bridges, and it also bridges the gap between, like, it feels so fresh, like, closer to what's happening on the Internet. And often there's a big gap between traditional media and, like, new media. And I feel myself, I have a hard time, like, getting past my preconceptions of what a picture book needs to be. And I wondered if you felt like you were on to something different or you tapped into something different with this book.
- [09:22]
Brad Montague
I think what helped is it was so disarming, the fact that we were working on a totally different book, and this one was, like, demanding to be made. And so suddenly it had this energy to it that, I mean, it just came together much quicker than anything else because, like, we were working on a book that took place in the woods, and there's all these animals and there's all sorts of painting and things that have to be done with that and this big story. And I've been, you know, so much thought going into that. And then suddenly this was just urging itself to exist. And so we couldn't be in our heads too much. And at the same time, we were reading a lot of James Marshall, and you love James Marshall as much as I do. And I mean, like, that kind of energy of the fun, the silly.
- [10:17]
Christy Montague
Right, yeah. Well, it's interesting because Celebration started as an event, and it kind of took on a life of its own. And then this book, I feel like, kind of took on a life of its own where it kind of. I don't know, the words and the. The way that we wanted to be playful with it. It just kind of dictated the way that we ended up putting it together.
- [10:39]
Brad Montague
It was less of us forcing it and more of it forcing us to get, like, get to work.
- [10:45]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, yeah. And I totally relate to that. I feel like, you know, the majority of. I think a lot that being making good work or making the work that feels best to you is so much this mind game of how do I access this part of my brain? And there's so many weird hurdles. And one of the things that seems to work the best is, like, procrastinating, where you're like, all right, we have to do this thing and it has to be good. And then your brain's like, what about this other thing that's totally irrelevant? And you. If you just let that go a little bit, sometimes it gives you something really get in there in the back door. Could you tell us your advice to.
- [11:27]
Brad Montague
All the creative professionals listening right now is procrastinate.
- [11:32]
Andy J. Pizza
Procrastinate. I mean, honestly, it doesn't matter whether that's my advice or not. That's what we're going to do. I just think there's no way around it. There isn't.
- [11:40]
Christy Montague
I mean, that's kind of how this book happened.
- [11:43]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [11:44]
Christy Montague
I mean, a year ago last July, we were talking to our editor and agent, and then it kind of turned into like, well, could this be the next book instead? And then like a month later, he had a manuscripts, and then two months later, we were working on the art. And it's crazy.
- [11:59]
Andy J. Pizza
So it's such a tricking yourself thing. You have to. You have to figure out, how do I get. That's why I always look at my to do list. I'm always like, okay, all these to do is. None of them are that difficult. The difficult one is getting past myself, like, to get these finished.
- [12:14]
Brad Montague
So I think, you know, over Andy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, so the party itself was a thing that I just wanted to get people together. And I little stressed out about doing an event, bringing people together and that barrier to, well, what if people show up? What if it's like, doesn't meet their expectations? And. And so to get over that, I made the event about failure so that it would could be messy and scrappy. We could spell our names wrong on the name tags. The playlist could be dumb, like. Like Weird Al said, dare to be stupid. And that was the mission. And the people that were presenting, I invited people who've done impressive things, but they could only share the thing they wouldn't want to share on stage. And in doing so, we found that not only did the people in the room resonate with the idea emotionally, I mean, we were laughing, but crying, and a big room turned into a living room. That kind of feeling. But then, like, people just started going back and wanting to do their own parties like this. It just was freeing in a way that people went, oh, finally I wanted an excuse to do something dumb.
- [13:36]
Andy J. Pizza
I always want that. That's also great.
- [13:39]
Brad Montague
Finally.
- [13:42]
Andy J. Pizza
I can actually, I have an excuse for this one. Okay. Brad said I can do it. I think that it's okay. There's so much interesting stuff there. So it's fail a bration. It's a picture book inspired by these events that you were doing where you're telling stories about failures that different people had had. And then in the book, it's really about helping kids embrace failure as funny or learning or not an identity. I think there's. It's. It's. It's really amazing. I wonder if, just real quick, we could go into two things you did there that I think are really interesting creatively. One is there's so many times where I want to do something, but I'm like, oh, man, an event. What if people don't come? What if it's embarrassing? What if I forget some of the basic things, like chairs, that kind of stuff? And so then I just don't do it.
- [14:44]
Brad Montague
Yeah.
- [14:44]
Andy J. Pizza
And I just don't do it. And there's so many other, you know, this could be anything, an event, a book, a podcast, whatever. And I think that rather than try to get around the problem, you creatively embrace the problem in a way of like, well, what if it was a failure? And that was like the whole concept, like, it's a concept party. And I just think that that is such a good, like, create again, a hack of the creative mind. Because for me, I can just kill my ideas before I even get started. So I love that.
- [15:19]
Brad Montague
Yeah. It's, you know, it's a habit of creatively approaching life, that way of being playful. And when you sort of have this, we forget how fun fun can be. You know, we just get so obsessed. You forget, oh, this is fun. Oh, I like this. And that sounds like one of those dumb things that would be on a podcast. Did you know fun is fun.
- [15:52]
Andy J. Pizza
You know what fun fun is? It's fun.
- [15:54]
Brad Montague
This needs to be the excerpt you share to promote. I will. Really deep music in the background.
- [16:01]
Andy J. Pizza
A lot of people don't know this fun is actually fun. Thanks, Brad.
- [16:07]
Brad Montague
And yeah, so you're welcome.
- [16:10]
Andy J. Pizza
That's great. But you're right, I mean, I mean, especially like the amount of times that when I have to do a video for a company or a talk or an illustration or whatever, how many times I get into that zone of, all right, I have to go do a video, I have to go do this thing. And every time I forget that the whole idea is that it's creative. The whole idea is that I have to have fun. What am I doing? Yeah.
- [16:38]
Brad Montague
That'S a thing. I have to kind of actively remind myself that if I'm unhealthy, my default is fear. But when I'm at my healthiest, my default is fun, which is joy. And that's where my favorite work comes from. And Corita Kent, that nun artist, just brilliant woman. One of the things she talks about a lot was her students best work came when they were playing. And she called it Plork. Like, you know, you've got a plork. It's this mix of play and work. And I. I mean, you gotta get Plurkin, man. You gotta play. That's.
- [17:18]
Andy J. Pizza
That's great. I also am envisioning it as a character. Plork.
- [17:22]
Christy Montague
Plork.
- [17:23]
Brad Montague
You'd make a great invisible thing.
- [17:24]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I love that and I love Sister Creator. It can't.
- [17:29]
Brad Montague
Yes. Yeah, go ahead.
- [17:33]
Andy J. Pizza
No, go ahead. What we're going to say was, they.
- [17:34]
Brad Montague
Say even, you know, for. Whether it's a young person or an adult going through a challenge or feeling disappointment or, you know, experiencing some sort of perceived failure to then move from a fearful framing of it to this fun place of seeing it as some sort of opportunity or seeing it as some way in which they can grow is gonna lead to some really good places. And sort of planting those seeds early in a picture book or in conversations or in games and is helpful, but it's also this helpful reminder for the parent who would be reading the book to be like, oh, yeah, yeah, I really should loosen up a bit here.
- [18:24]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah. And people won't believe this, but I too need that reminder. Like, you know, most people think I need to tighten up, but I do. As a parent, it's easy. It's easy to get into, like, I gotta do this and do the dishes and oh my God, like, I totally get. I get in that zone. I want to get into a little bit of like, what causes people like you two to throw a fail abration. And if we can get into any of the real stuff around that, because I know you and I, we've been making stuff for a long time. Some of it is really fun, Some of it didn't go the way that we hoped that it would. And so I'd love to dig into that. I just want to underline one other thing real quick that I thought was super interesting right at the top. You guys have done a lot of like, event gatherings, like campaigns, and I. I just wanted to point out that you turned an event into a kids book. And I think a lot of times, like, I think a lot of times myself, I get into this zone of like, the muse wants this to be. I never say the muse. First of all, just let me say that, okay, I was pretending, but I'm like, the muse wants this to be a podcast episode or this thing, you know, get really precious about it. But often a lot of the ways to kind of break through is to be. To mismatch what it wants to be. Yes. You know, was that in your mind, like, as you guys were translating this?
- [20:09]
Brad Montague
There was some tension early on when it was even suggested to me that, you know, this is a book. And I mean, I was just kind of like, no, what is a book is the book I'm working on that is very serious, has rabbits in the woods with newspapers. That is the. That is very serious. It's very, like, serious about it. And. And then the more and more I start thinking about it and. And then it really gets serious when Christie starts going, you know, they're kind of right. And I'm like, not you too. They got to you. You've been infected as well.
- [20:44]
Christy Montague
Yeah, it was like a 30 minute meeting. And from the beginning of it, he was just like, no, no way. Like, that wouldn't work too. Oh, maybe. Yeah. Let me think about this. And then like a day after then.
- [20:53]
Brad Montague
I emailed a manuscript. You know, is this a thing? And yeah, and the fun starts to kind of come when you play with that, when you go oh, you know, I actually was pitching this as a movie, but it kind of would be more interesting in this setting. And that leads to some of the most interesting things. And this becoming a book suddenly made so much sense, because core to what I love and what is contagious to me, like, I'm addicted to it, is stories that inspire more stories or creative projects that inspire more creativity that, you know, it started when we were doing work on YouTube and, you know, we would do something like throw a parade for our postal worker and then see hundreds of parades happen within a month and go, oh, a parade is cool, but a parade that inspires more parades is even cooler. It's generative in that way. And this is the exact same thing. It's a party that could inspire more parties. And also, the book itself is made out of these really cool things that I feel like the way you brought the. I did these drawings, and then she makes these paper sculptures and is tearing cardboard together and hot glue and things. And you look at it, and the kid's going to go, I want to make a thing, too. And they feel the barrier is not too high for them to attempt it.
- [22:30]
Andy J. Pizza
I love that component of it. By the way, Sophie and I have done collaborations in the past with obviously invisible Things. This is part of the reason I was really excited to talk to you about it is you guys have a similar thing happening over there with these picture books. But I've also. She's a fabric artist, and we've kind of explored different times adding my illustration with her fabric and this dimensionality. And so seeing you guys do that was extremely inspiring. And it looks fantastic. It works really, really well.
- [23:02]
Brad Montague
Yeah. Like, talk about how you did the playing with the cake and stuff is that.
- [23:08]
Christy Montague
Yeah. I think we've been so inspired by books like the Beautiful Oops and, like, ones where it was very tactile. And our kids always love those where you can, like, touch them. And so even in Fantastic Bureau, we had a page where they, like, it was torn open. Like, you know, like, it looked like there's a piece torn out of it. And so so many people would, like, touch the page and, like, think it was real. And we loved the way it printed. And so we just kind of wanted to turn in, you know, use a little bit more of that in this book. And so really, it just started with playing with everything and kind of taking. Brad creates sketches the way that we work, and I take those sketches and then either color them or whatever, you know, we do to be able to turn them into finished illustrations. So with these, I just started cutting out a paper, and I would print them out and then just kind of trace and figure out, like, what, you know, should these be? And then I loved the way the shadows were showing up whenever I photographed it. So it was just a lot of play and then just kind of seeing what came out of that.
- [24:05]
Brad Montague
But that's great. She is a perfectionist.
- [24:09]
Christy Montague
Yes. There are so many that I, like, redid or I kept having to, like, I would photograph it, like, three times, and then I would put it in the computer, and I'm like, nope, that's not gonna work. Okay, you have to do it again.
- [24:19]
Brad Montague
But you have to go, hang on. This book is, like, it's okay. And so it was, like, a bit of tension there of you allowing the imperfections to still exist in the book.
- [24:35]
Christy Montague
Yeah. That's something I struggle with. And so I guess needed to address and addressed throughout the process of this book.
- [24:43]
Andy J. Pizza
So that hits on the next thing I want to talk about, which was one of the things I really relate to in my collaborations with Sophie is I can get in my own way. It's hard to access different parts of my brain, like, the creative parts, when I want to, because of ego or whatever it is that's gotten, you know, insecurity. There's all kinds of different things that stop me from accessing that creative side. And even in this conversation, you both played different roles and then swapped them. Like, you talked about Christie, like, you know, this is actually maybe a book, and Brad's like, that has to get Brad out of the way. And then you're struggling with these perfectionist tendencies, and he's now getting that person out of the way. That to me, working with somebody so close to you who knows your crap, knows your tricks, like, it makes it. Honestly, I've been really open. Like, it makes it difficult. Like, it's not easy.
- [25:46]
Brad Montague
Yeah.
- [25:47]
Andy J. Pizza
But it's really. Can be super powerful and rewarding. How does that dynamic work out, do you think? Do you know, Christie? Like, when Brad. Like, when Brad's like, it's not a book. Like, what are you? This is dangerous. But what do you, like, recognizing? Or how do you. What are your tricks? Like, how do you get around it? We don't have to go to counseling, you know, couples counseling here. But it's an interesting thing for all collaborations, you know?
- [26:14]
Brad Montague
Yeah.
- [26:15]
Christy Montague
Yeah. I think it's funny because we are so much alike, and I think we compliment each other so well, and, like, you know, a lot of people are, like, opposites attract. I'm like, no. Like, we are alike in so many ways, except for he is a dreamer and I'm a realist. And so he will come in with be like, yeah, we're gonna do this. And I'm like, okay. But practically, I don't know. Like, you know, this isn't gonna work. And so even with, like, celebration, he's like, I have this idea, and we're going to do this event, and it's going to be this. And I'm like, okay, but, you know, and then I introduce all the problems that we need to solve first. And so I think whenever I'm excited about something and I bring it in, I think he really listens more because I wasn't immediately shooting it down. Like, it was like, no, this is a book. And he's like, wait, what? Okay.
- [26:55]
Brad Montague
So I'm actually like, it's like breathing, too. A dog hears. Go like, yeah.
- [27:02]
Andy J. Pizza
Oh, okay, we're doing it. Let's go. Yeah, I get it. I get it. That totally.
- [27:06]
Brad Montague
Yeah. I mean, it's that clouds and concrete kind of thing. That's kite and string. That. That has a negative feel.
- [27:16]
Christy Montague
But, yeah, it's a positive thing. And that's what I always feel like we joke about that. Like, I'll crush his dreams whenever he'll come in and have some big idea. And I'm like, no, it's really not that. It's just looking at things you might not have thought about, just making sure that we address all those problems ahead of time.
- [27:31]
Brad Montague
So, yeah, but then it's like, oh, she's in on it. Then that means, oh, it must be good, because, you know, out of a hundred ideas, one of them goes through, and then she goes, actually, I think that's a thing.
- [27:44]
Christy Montague
And usually I'll get grumpy about it, but then I'll be like, okay, we'll do it. He had an idea a few years ago for, like, a karaoke backpack, and he was just all about it, like, we gotta make a karaoke backpack. And I'm like, I mean, I think that'd be great, but that means I have to figure it out. Like, fine, okay. And so then we built it. So, yeah, but it was great, and it was awesome at the end. But, you know, I mean, that's something.
- [28:09]
Andy J. Pizza
That had to be invented.
- [28:11]
Brad Montague
That the faces of people, when they got to sing karaoke and they saw it, was worth it.
- [28:20]
Andy J. Pizza
You know what's hilarious is it's so similar to my partnership with Sophie. We actually have. We wrote in Invisible Things. There's a. There's two pages that came from conversations we had with our editor about head in the clouds, feet in the ground. Feet on the ground.
- [28:36]
Brad Montague
Yeah.
- [28:37]
Andy J. Pizza
That was exactly. Yeah. And it's interesting, like, when you have the honesty, too, of someone close that you're collaborating with. Yes. It's frustrating how often things get shot down, back and forth. Like we're our. Each other's toughest critics for ideas. But when something goes through, I. I feel exactly the same. Because if we're both. If we both turn the key and we're like, this is good, we know we have to, like, go through with it. It's a really powerful motivation.
- [29:05]
Brad Montague
Yes. Yes, it is. It is. And there's something really cool that can grow from that sort of binocular vision of having people see it from different angles and then coming together, and it elevates the whole thing. It elevates my work when she comes and takes the breadcrumbs and says, we're going to do this. And then I have been able to help her play more and bring an energy and a kind of color to what she longs to see in the world and kind of understanding that about each other, about what is it you're really longing. What's the energy you're really longing to add to the world in some way and kind of finding some way to help each other do that.
- [30:07]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, we're in a really bright spot. So let's just take a nosedive into the darkness. Let's go straight into what makes one want to. To celebrate failure, what kind of scenario? You know, we. We, like, we've said we've known each other for a long time. We've talked a lot about the ups and downs of trying to have a creative practice. I know from my experience and know from just things we talked about, it's not all fun and games, and sometimes it's really, really hard. What did you. Did you guys share a story at that first event? Or what was the catalyst for that? Why. Why did you want to do this?
- [30:51]
Brad Montague
It's a combination of lots of things. One being, you know, you've interviewed lots of people, so you, you know, this sense, too, that it's really fun to talk about the kind of resume pieces, the things that. That you did, that you made that cool. Like, that's nice. But then when you get to kind of do those conversations, that's about the detours or about the job that didn't go right. The company that they, you know, wrecked the audition that was so Bad that it's now studied by a school as how not to audition, which is what our friend Sarah shared that story. You're like, oh, that's like, now I'm learning about you. I'm learning about humanity. I'm learning the good stuff. And I started thinking about, like, man, it's cool when they do interviews with CEOs about what their dreams are over the company and where they're headed. But it'd be far more interesting if business school was just all, hey, here's what this guy did. That just was a disaster. This was a fiasco. Don't do that. And that's what I want to hear from people. And they started to realize, I'm with kids a lot, and I don't tell them the things that went wrong or went sideways. And it was a principal of a school in Oklahoma who was telling me a story of seeing his kids. He was doing a guided drawing of the Grinch around Christmas time, and he saw kids happily drawing. And then he saw a big crowd of them start to crumple the paper up or hit the table and getting frustrated at their drawing. Didn't look like that. And that he was explaining to me that that was one symptom of. In which he saw over and over again that there was this bubble of perfectionism that needed to pop. This stressful idea that they had to be perfect or do exactly right on a test. And that sort of anxiety bubbling up. And then learning that one in three kids deals with anxiety to such a degree that, like, they can't function. You're just going, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, as bad as it affects us, like, there's children growing up and, hey, we gotta change the conversation about this is part of the process. And it. Sometimes it hurts and it's disappointing. But we can kind of help each other grow through that. So what if school was a safe place to make a mistake and grow? What if, like, they understood that there was a community around them, that there was these. This way through to kind of playfully approach problems and to not avoid failure, but to fail better? And, I mean, it's something that I needed. But I know you like what this is like, a book. You would have.
- [33:49]
Christy Montague
Oh, I would have loved it. Yeah. I think one of the things, too, that even working on this book that I've realized is that. But one of the things I love about Brad is that he is not afraid to try things. And so we have had so many different things that we've done. Like weird rooms. We've ended up in just because of him, you know, calling somebody and, or messaging somebody on social media and being like, hey, I want to interview you or I want to talk to you about this. And he's tried so many things. And so he's also felt like, oh, I failed a lot because a lot of those things he thought, oh, this will be the thing. Like, he created lots of things before he created Kim President. And he told me once, like, yeah, I thought every single one of those was the thing things like it was going to take off.
- [34:30]
Andy J. Pizza
And I can relate much to this.
- [34:33]
Christy Montague
Yes.
- [34:33]
Andy J. Pizza
So it's difficult to hear almost.
- [34:39]
Christy Montague
And one of the things that I've realized, though, through working on this, like, as we've been trying to think of, like, oh, what are some stories that we could tell? Like, at a celebration, I feel like I don't have that many stories. Like, I was like, I haven't stepped out of that comfort zone as much as he has to really try things and to, you know, do something different and to get out there and actually fail. And so I think that's something that was an important lesson for me to learn too, and just be like, oh, what am I not trying? Like, I should be failing more than I am. So what can I get out there and actually start doing that?
- [35:11]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, that's really interesting. It's interesting.
- [35:14]
Brad Montague
Dr. Pizza, we just had a breakthrough.
- [35:16]
Andy J. Pizza
What?
- [35:19]
Brad Montague
This counseling session.
- [35:23]
Andy J. Pizza
Not a real doctor. Just in case, you know, I don't want to be funny asking for more.
- [35:30]
Brad Montague
Therapy, my money back.
- [35:52]
Andy J. Pizza
Hey, in case you don't know, we have a monthly live virtual meetup every last Monday of the month with supporters of the show from Patreon and Substack. We have so much fun on these calls and they are the warmest, most encouraging creatives that I have ever met. And we also talk real creative practice stuff. We have authors, illustrators, lettering artists, picture book makers, fine artists, musicians, and folks that work in video and film as well. And we have people that are just starting out, people super established in their creative careers and everything in between. For the rest of this year, we're going to chat through our new Journey of the True Fan series, exploring questions and ways to apply these ideas to your own creative practice so that you can leave 2020 stronger than you came in with more visibility, connection with your audience, and sales. Sign up to whichever suits you best@ either patreon.com creative pep talk or andy jpizza.substack.com and I hope to see you at this month's meetup. I mean, It's a really interesting kind of turn that I wouldn't have thought about. If someone prompts you, like, what are your failures? I wonder, Even if there's. There's, first of all, like, do I have any? Like, what are they? But then also, how, you know, speaking of therapy, how repressed are they? Or, like, can I even think of them? Or have I just detached myself from them? And, you know, like you talk about in the book, these are, like, the prime learning experiences. And then also, as creators, those are our prime stories. Because the further I get into telling stories and just kind of loving storytelling, the more I feel when I watch a movie where the protagonist gets what they want from the start, I pretty much feel like I think this story is broken. Like, I really do feel like that. And especially if it's satisfying, if they get what they want and they're satisfied by what they want, I'm like, I'm not sure this is a story. And so, you know, the getting in touch with these failures is both a learning experience also, you know, getting comfortable with it is a powerful thing. Yeah, it's interesting. I hadn't. I mean, I've definitely mined a lot of my failures because I'm always trying to find stories to tell on the podcast and on stage and stuff like that. But it's a really interesting, like, collecting failures as a. As a. As proof of trying.
- [38:41]
Brad Montague
Exactly.
- [38:42]
Andy J. Pizza
Great idea.
- [38:43]
Brad Montague
Yeah. Like. Like a good scout receives their badges. There. There's. You know.
- [38:54]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [38:55]
Brad Montague
I realized maybe I should have remembered to feed the goldfish. You know, I realized maybe don't carry my daughter's LEGO set that we worked on all day with my own hands in really quickly on Christmas Day, and then drop it. That's what.
- [39:12]
Andy J. Pizza
Can you imagine if that actually happened?
- [39:14]
Brad Montague
Oh, yeah. If somebody did that, that would be just.
- [39:17]
Andy J. Pizza
I mean, worst dad of the year. But are you gonna. Now you're gonna do demerit badges. That's basically for failures. Speaking of the goldfish one, I was gonna ask you. What? There's so many funny failure examples in the book. I wondered what both of your favorite failures were in there, and then I'll share the one I like the most.
- [39:45]
Brad Montague
Well, you know, one for me was hugged the wrong grandpa.
- [39:49]
Andy J. Pizza
That's mine.
- [39:55]
Brad Montague
I have a memory of doing it with my aunt. I thought I saw my Aunt Shelby in a mall. Was not Aunt Shelby.
- [40:02]
Andy J. Pizza
I hope this wasn't like last year. That would be a real problem.
- [40:08]
Brad Montague
No, that would be. It would be. Get off.
- [40:12]
Andy J. Pizza
What are you doing?
- [40:14]
Brad Montague
We were in a Mall. There's a lot of people.
- [40:16]
Andy J. Pizza
And another of Brad's failures.
- [40:19]
Brad Montague
She was like, oh, what is that? Oh. I was like, you're not itch. You know? Yeah. It's a hawth thing. And. Yeah.
- [40:26]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah. When I read hugged the wrong grandpa, I was cracking up. That's hilarious. And I love the goldfish one, too. What? Do you remember what the line is?
- [40:36]
Brad Montague
Oh, he's giving a speech to his friends, and he says, and that is why you should always remember to feed your goldfish.
- [40:43]
Andy J. Pizza
And his empty.
- [40:44]
Brad Montague
His bowl is empty. Yeah, yeah.
- [40:47]
Christy Montague
And then he's just carrying the bowl around.
- [40:48]
Brad Montague
He's just carrying it around. Yeah. Yeah. Which I love.
- [40:52]
Andy J. Pizza
That's another metaphor. Put down the bowl. Okay. Move past it. That is really funny. Christy, did you think of one?
- [41:02]
Christy Montague
Yeah, I think the kid that ripped his pants, like, while he was trying to dance in front of his friends. And so that one was fun, too, because we just ripped the paper, and so it's like his pants are actually ripped.
- [41:12]
Brad Montague
Yeah. He looks also like he's doing a pretty sweet dance move when it happened, so it kind of feels like it was worth it. It was art.
- [41:20]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [41:21]
Brad Montague
Beauty is worth it. Yeah.
- [41:23]
Andy J. Pizza
I love it. And ripped pants is always good. It never did. That's just a classic. You remember that part in Parks and Rec where they. Where Jerry rips his pants?
- [41:35]
Brad Montague
Oh, man. Oh, man.
- [41:37]
Andy J. Pizza
That was the. This is the lamest joke ever, and I'm crying.
- [41:44]
Brad Montague
He just had this. You love him. You just love him. You want him to be okay. And it just. All these just derpy things happen around him. It was. It was really satisfying, though, to see that he had a beautiful family at the end. Okay.
- [41:59]
Andy J. Pizza
He's actually. He's the happiest of all I wanted to talk about. You know, I'm glad that. I'm glad there was something to what I was perceiving about how this book really feels like. It captures the worlds that you guys create online and your creative voice in a fresh way. Like, in a way that I hadn't seen in a picture book. And I'm glad that you guys were feeling that. I wondered. For me, every new creative project comes with it with its own sets of failures. But also, hopefully, most of the time, there's something that feels like, oh, this was a breakthrough. This is a creative thing that. That I'm really, like, excited about, was there for this project. Is there something that kind of shines as, like, this is a new breakthrough moment for us creatively.
- [42:56]
Christy Montague
I feel like the flow between us felt like, the easiest on this book. And I don't know if it just comes from working on multiple books together or if it was just the way we worked on this one, but it just seemed like it really just. Just like, moved so easily and seamlessly, I guess, from. From him to me and then back to him. And I mean, where we just kind of like, were able to work on it in such an easy way and without much communication even. I feel like it. It worked out really well.
- [43:23]
Brad Montague
Yeah, it's like a just level of trust gets built up over time. And, you know, I have a friend who's a golfer. I'm not a golfer. You're not a golfer either?
- [43:31]
Andy J. Pizza
No way. I don't think I could possibly do that.
- [43:34]
Brad Montague
I'm down with, you know, colorful pants. We can be team colorful pants. We can just get together.
- [43:40]
Andy J. Pizza
Golf ball. Like, I could do a driving range thing. Maybe we could do it.
- [43:44]
Brad Montague
Maybe let's just start a, you know, mid. Mid. Midlife. Guys who like colorful pants club. We'll hang out.
- [43:51]
Christy Montague
Okay.
- [43:52]
Brad Montague
I like that. My friend, he plays golf a lot, and he said what keeps him going back is he's just good enough. Like, he gets just enough that he's kind of like, ah, next time. And I felt that way with books where it's like. It's almost like what was in my head, almost like what we were going for. And this one did the same thing because the last book, we had so many layers and textures and things that we were trying to create by hand and these worlds and characters. And it's like we almost got it to what was in our heads. And this one, we got to do it again. And now we've got that itch of, oh, we almost had it. Feel like they're in the workshop with us. And so the next book will have even more of that. So kind of hooked on that feeling of, ah, almost got it.
- [44:39]
Andy J. Pizza
I love that because I feel like it gets into that kind of creating for the sake of creating energy. That's that intrinsic motivation that keeps you going. And by the way, your other books are fantastic. They do really different things. But I did just notice, like, oh, this is a little bit of the humor side that. I know there's some funny stuff in the other ones too, but this is just every step of the way, you're adding another layer.
- [45:09]
Brad Montague
Well, I was afraid. I've always been afraid because humor can be perceived so differently, and I didn't want it to distract from any messages before, and I didn't want. And yet when I'm reading in a classroom with kids or with people. I add the jokes or these little asides. And. And so more and more you're going. It needs to feel like it's. It's as if we're with them. And. And my favorite books are funny. Like they just are. And they're the ones we reread and reread over and over. And my favorite drawings are funny drawings. My favorite, you know, and. And so that's.
- [45:48]
Andy J. Pizza
Kids favorites are funny things.
- [45:50]
Brad Montague
Yes, yes, yes. So, you know, there's actually like a whole thing, a whole back and forth, because I just kept adding mice to every page, like wanting mice. And. And the editor was like, you know, maybe it's just humans we don't need. I was like. And so I started a. A whole PowerPoint presentation of why the mice were vital to keep the animals in the. I finally just wrote a, like, you know, I just like them.
- [46:18]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, no, I like them.
- [46:20]
Brad Montague
And. But that. That was a. A thing that I'm learning to chase and defend more is joy and leaning in towards those things that, you know, oh, this just is lighting up every light in my brain of, this is fun. This is what I want there to be more of. And if the book is an invitation to have less fear and more fun and see failure as not catastrophic, but as a catalyst for creativity and goodness, like, it needed to be silly too.
- [47:08]
Andy J. Pizza
The other thing that came to mind a lot when I'm reading it was, oh, this is very adjacent to the really important literature around things like growth mindset, fixed mindset that I think is really powerful and important for everybody, including kids. And I think this, the thing that you brought up about how much more seamless the process was in the collaboration reminded me of how in my own collaborations, how over time that happens as you look, learn how each other works, what. What each other is good at and what your preferences are, all that stuff. And, you know, when I first started working with Sophie, there was some. It was really choppy and awkward in the way that we were trying to do a creative process and I was trying to tap into that growth mindset that said hard isn't bad and that it doesn't mean that it's not right and trying to hold on to. Yeah, but every time we do it, it gets a little bit better. Like it. Every time everything we've made is better than what I could make on my own and better than what we made before. And so, you know, I. It reminds me of the kind of the themes of the book because that's one of the things I always say when people try to collaborate with people that are close to them or not. It doesn't mean that it's supposed to feel easy from the first go or that it's supposed to just work like kismet. So I'm glad that you brought that.
- [48:52]
Brad Montague
There's some tension. That tension is good, and it can be healthy. And it means that you're chipping away at the unnecessary and finding the vital. And, you know, it's interesting too, along the way as we're, like, working on that, you know, growth mindset came from this researcher, Carol Dweck, and her student actually just wrote a book that furthered that study to, you know, growth mindsets about individuals. And this new book is Cultures of Growth. Cultures of Growth. I always say the title.
- [49:28]
Andy J. Pizza
You caught it.
- [49:30]
Brad Montague
And the whole spirit is it's, you know, how does an entire culture grow? And it's through communities of growth where it's safe to share things that weren't safe to share and grow and mess up, but have a collective growth mindset. And classrooms are the perfect place to model that. And my hope is that the kids growing now will. Their imaginations will be furnished with an image of what it looks like, like for people to grow together. And it's not just an individual growth mindset, but how can we, you know, have everywhere be a place where you can dream and help others dream, grow and help others grow and. And that, yeah, it doesn't mean it's always going to be utopia. It's going to be. But. But there'll be problems, but we will work through them together. And that's the idea of it's not about not failing. It's just us all failing better. And that means not doing it alone. And one of the first images that I worked on for the book is the. Is a spread of a kid who's wrecked his bicycle. And I was thinking about the, like those religious paintings where it's a strip, you know, of a whole bunch of people in different poses or whatever. But where it's. It's. The drama is not, oh, he's not being picked up, he wrecked his bike, and it's a tragedy. Instead, it's this group of people just waiting for him to realize they're there, that they're. They've also failed too, and that they have something to offer him, just as he has something. And so that was like this image that I thought, I've seen that stories can create more stories, and I've seen That the images we put out into the world can become more images like it. So that's an image that I want there to be more of kids realizing they're not alone, and there's a whole bunch of people ready to help pick them up. And they can be part of either side of that, and they will be. Some days they're the kid that wrecked the bike. Some days they're the kid helping the other. So, yeah, we take turns.
- [51:50]
Andy J. Pizza
I love that. I was thinking about one of the things that. That I've tried to develop in myself and then I've talked about on the show is that I've noticed, like, a lot of values that work to your benefit creatively are kind of contradictory, and they require, like, muscle memory and discernment to know, which is needing to be accessed at this moment. So if you read about, like, success, the two things you're going to hear that are, in theory, kind of polar opposites are grit and pivoting. You know, they're like. And so how do you know when you grit and when you pivot? Like, what. It's very complicated. And I've learned, like. Oh, you. Yes, you can, like, learn the kind of difficulties that are the good kind and which are the bad kind. Sometimes it's just like experimenting, you know, creating little tests so that. Because you can't always know. But I love what you said because it adds to the tool belt for discerning the difference between the good hard and the bad hard. And it's having people around you that can help you notice, like, you're banging your head against the wall, and it's not really going to help anything. Like, you're just. That's just bad. That's bad pain versus, you know, I know this doesn't seem like a book, but. And it might be hard to do that, but. Brad, could we try? Like, could we make it into something? Could we try it? Like, I think that that is such a good. A really good tool is having that outside point of view.
- [53:31]
Brad Montague
Yeah. I think creatively what has changed things for me is when I have decided to involve more people and open my arms and welcome people in instead of being closed off and inviting people and playing and playing together and letting that lead to somewhere, whether it's a video, whether it's an event, whether it's a book that becomes the place where it can grow from, really, it's healthy ground for something really good to grow from. When you've got a lot of voices that you believe in, they believe in you, and they bring an interesting view to it, then, all right, let's play together. Let's see what we can do. And I've been trying to do that more. I want to do it more.
- [54:23]
Andy J. Pizza
Christy, do you. When you notice that the collaboration isn't in the healthy difficulty stage, have you learned things that help kind of jump start it back into the right direction?
- [54:42]
Christy Montague
I think time is helpful. And if we're not procrastinating, then we have that. But sometimes with deadlines and everything, it's like, okay, we gotta figure this out, you know, like, and get it.
- [54:52]
Andy J. Pizza
You're accidentally writing another book.
- [54:55]
Christy Montague
Yeah, yeah. You're like, oh, I have, like, two months to get this done. Uh, and so trying to make sure we have enough time built in that we can kind of work through problems, like. Cause I feel like a lot of times, especially when we're butting heads over something, if we can just step away from it, even for just a day, and then come back to it and look at it again, it's like, like, oh, okay, yeah, okay, I see why you're saying that, let's do it this way, you know, or whatever. But, yeah, I don't know. With this one, I don't feel like we even really had much of that. Like, there were times that you were like, oh, it's fine. And I'm like, no, it needs to be reworked. Like, I've got to redo the spread.
- [55:29]
Brad Montague
Messier. Make it messier.
- [55:31]
Christy Montague
Well, and like the bicycle one that he was just talking about, like, when I first photographed it, I had, like, two of the characters overlapping, and it was driving me crazy. And I was like, no, like, it's blocking, you know, this one character. And I'm like, the way they're overlapping, it's got to be fixed. And so I ended up, like, redoing that one right before we turned it in. Like, we had already turned everything in. And I'm like, wait, okay, there's one more spread that I've got a new version of. Oh.
- [55:50]
Brad Montague
And then the ground. We even. We switched out because it just.
- [55:53]
Christy Montague
Yeah, it was like we just kept reworking.
- [55:55]
Brad Montague
Only mattered to us. One of those things. Nobody would. This has got to happen. But yeah, that.
- [56:01]
Andy J. Pizza
That was a huge learning curve for me where sometimes I will go in with my. We're going in with our own standards. And what happens there is you can have a misconnection in your mind where it feels like you're arguing, like, this is the important thing. And that person's like, no, this is the important thing. It's like, we need to just finish this spread. No, that, you know, we need to get the pit. Like, and then I realized over time, like, oh, what's good is that we're taking care of the standards of separate things. Like, we're both. And that's what actually makes it better. We're not needing to argue about. This is. Is the main thing. This is the main thing that can be your main thing. And this is my main thing. And we recognize that. It's really. It was difficult for me to learn.
- [56:47]
Christy Montague
Yeah. Sometimes even, like, finding a balance in between them because, like, there are things that Brad does a really great job with sketching of, like, creating, like, a personality and creating kind of a feeling or things like that where he can capture the energy of something. But then, like, I'll look at it and be like, okay, but a body can't actually be in that shape. Like, something's off. Like, the legs is just not working. And so it's like trying to capture what he captured, but also in a way that actually makes a little bit more sense. It's like, okay, you know, like, if I can change the knees a little, but still, you know, make it feel the energy it had. I don't want to lose that. But trying to find a way that, yeah, your body can actually get in shape.
- [57:29]
Brad Montague
And though you. You get to, like. I love the spontaneity of a line. Like, and sometimes it's just impossible to replicate. And so keeping that pure while finding where the other parts are that you can articulate or switch in some way where the spontaneity is still there so that it does.
- [57:49]
Andy J. Pizza
The character doesn't have two knees, but you still have kind of some flavor. It's tough. I mean, you know, I get that.
- [57:57]
Christy Montague
Yeah.
- [57:58]
Brad Montague
Yeah. So that's why our next book will just be a multiverse kind of thing, or it's multi need.
- [58:07]
Christy Montague
Yeah.
- [58:08]
Andy J. Pizza
They got 18 fingers in that universe. Cool. That's great. So. Okay. We usually end with a call to adventure, something you can act on. And the thing that I am really inspired by from you guys is this. It's. So I'm noticing how unusual it is for creative people to make something that causes other people to make stuff. Especially in the world of where art meets commerce, it gets really scarcity and really, it's easy to get in this place where what you made you want to be the final thing in this direction. Like, I did this, so nobody else can do this. And this notion of, I made this book, so other books like this Will be made. I made this party so that other people would try parties like this. It's such a flip, and I think it's served you all really well over the years. It's been a beautiful thing. I wondered if you could give any tip on how to notice how to turn that up with an idea that you have and let it be something that people can run with. Like, it reminds me of, like, the Grateful Dead. One of the things that's attributed to their success and ongoing success was, like, early on, they made a decision not to crush their fans. Bootlegs.
- [59:35]
Brad Montague
Yeah.
- [59:36]
Andy J. Pizza
And it really caused this ownership and this pride and togetherness around it. And obviously, that's just what's made it endure even past the band members being alive. Like, it lives on with the guitar.
- [59:50]
Brad Montague
Strap from the band just released an album. It was the wildest thing.
- [59:55]
Andy J. Pizza
And so I wondered if you could. Because you guys have a lot of experience doing this. You've done these kinds of things a lot. I wondered if you could talk about either how to recognize an idea like that or how to take an idea and maybe inject some of that into it.
- [60:10]
Christy Montague
I think a big part of it is perspective. And I think one of our friends once described Brad as a Pied Piper. They're like, brad is just like the Pied Piper. Like, he just constantly is creating things for people to follow and, like, get behind him. And I'm in. Like, they were like, yeah. Like, whatever he does, I love it. That story is good.
- [60:28]
Brad Montague
That story ends tragically.
- [60:30]
Andy J. Pizza
You know, teachers don't read into that. Okay.
- [60:36]
Christy Montague
But I think one of the big things with Brad is, like, everything he creates, he wants it to be a party that everybody's invited to. And so I feel like a lot of the words that, like, kid President said that, you know, Brad created were just about, you know, I'm not in a party. I am a party. But, like, that's you. Like, you want to create that party, and you want everybody to be there. And so I think his person perspective on everything, it's just to approach it that way.
- [60:59]
Andy J. Pizza
Do you think, Christy?
- [61:00]
Brad Montague
Very nice.
- [61:02]
Andy J. Pizza
Have you noticed, though, like, even if that's Brad's nature, because this is the one. One of the things sometimes, like, I can train my brain to see things, like, you know, something in my brain that tells me when I'm moving through life, notice that kind of thing and all it's like the yellow car thing, where you're like, there's no yellow cars. And then you think that, and then you see, like, 10 do you think because of Brad's nature being that that you have also learned to pick up those kind of threads?
- [61:33]
Christy Montague
Oh yeah, definitely. And I think that's something too is I think he pushes me out of my comfort zone a lot. I mean, I think there's, you know, the whole dreamer and realist thing. There's a lot that I would have just been like, oh no, there's too many things like that would make that difficult, you know, like yeah. But he pushes me to see the possibilities and to, you know, figure out like, okay, yeah, we can do this. Like, let me think through it. But, but we can do this.
- [61:57]
Brad Montague
Well, that's one of the things that you remember the show Pete and Pete, right? Yes, Nickelodeon 90s the Adventures of Pete and Pete. Best show.
- [62:07]
Andy J. Pizza
Serious Brad energy right there.
- [62:09]
Brad Montague
Okay. I'm obsessed with it. Love it.
- [62:11]
Andy J. Pizza
I believe it.
- [62:11]
Brad Montague
It's the best show. There's an episode of that where little Pete hears a song and it's his band, he loves it. And then the band is playing in his garage and he hears it and it's just like obsessed with it. Well then he can't find the band, he can't find the song. So the who episode is about him being so obsessed with hearing that song again. And, and it is so beautiful because then it ends with him just finally creating a band.
- [62:36]
Andy J. Pizza
And like.
- [62:37]
Brad Montague
And it's the happiest, most joyful ending of him creating his memory of what that song was. There's another movie, Rambo 2 or what is it? A son of Rambo. It's a kid who saw Rambo like through and it's so it's him trying to recreate seeing Rambo from his memory. Memory. There's something about like Robert Frost talked about poems begin as a lump in your throat that, that you have such a strong desire for something to exist that it overwhelms even your abilities to bring it to life. Like, like. So that's what drives me because I am not the best illustrator and yet I want this thing that's in my head to exist. And so it, it, I'm overwhelmed with the dream to bring it to reality. So like. And I also loved like the liner notes to the Velvet Underground album that when they did a re release of the self titled one Velvet Underground and Nico, where somebody wrote that their first album didn't sell that many copies, but every person who bought a copy of it started their own band and it's like what is more powerful? You know? And that, that is that, that they, they tapp well of creativity and said, hey, you're invited. You can do it too. And. And it unleashed more music on the world. And so that, that's cool to me. That's like, like, hey, the well of creativity is deep. Like, there's so many stories to tell and so many things. So let's tap into what is that thing you want to exist? What's that feeling? What's that lump in your throat? What's that song that you just can't? Shazam's not going to dig it up for you. You can't. So you've got to make it. That leads to really weird places. Nobody asked for it, but here you are.
- [64:32]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [64:34]
Christy Montague
Usually anytime we do anything, Brad starts it with being like, oh, nobody asked for this, but I gotta create it. We did fill a bracelet like the very first one. We're like getting everything ready and we have pulled in a friend, Holly, to help us like, create this like whole stage scene and all this stuff. And he's realizing like, how many people are now involved in this and how many things are happening. And he's like, nobody asked for this. Nobody asked for this. And I'm like, but it needs to exist. Like.
- [64:58]
Brad Montague
And so you hit that point at any journey where you're just like, oh, no, like, what? How did we get into this? I didn't ask. Like, nobody. You know that documentary where Werner Herzog's trying to pull a boat over like a mountain?
- [65:15]
Andy J. Pizza
I've heard of it.
- [65:16]
Brad Montague
A Burden of Dreams, the title of the documentary about him making fitzgeraldo. And you know, he's roped all these people into doing this and it's dangerous. People are exhausted, they're yelling at each other. They're in the middle of the jungle. But he has this vision of the boat must go over the mountain.
- [65:35]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [65:36]
Brad Montague
And it's insane, but I get it.
- [65:39]
Andy J. Pizza
I am really inspired by that because whenever I speak to creators that are in. In situations that feel uninspiring, you know, maybe they're at a, in a. In a job where the creative problems are solving or they're not even creative problems, they're, you know, that's a stretch. Are not exciting or inspiring. I always talk about like, the biggest opportunity to really exert your creativity is the least inspiring situation is the place where.
- [66:13]
Brad Montague
Yes.
- [66:13]
Andy J. Pizza
You know when, if Nike comes and says, hey, can you do a 10 story mural with a team of people? Like, it doesn't even take that much creativity to do that. Like in that moment when you get that really juicy creative opportunity, you're Just like, all right, let's go, like, play easy. But the things that totally turn my career into a different direction were the times where nobody was asking me to do that, and it was the least inspiring scenario because I'm making a T shirt or I'm making a. A podcast that nobody said they wanted that. And that's a very trusting. The voice inside that's asking you to do that is a really difficult thing to do.
- [66:55]
Brad Montague
Yeah. And then, like, I see so many truly brilliant people get stuck on thinking they have to get it perfect the first time and that it doesn't have to be fully formed, just iterate, you know, like, do the thing. Make it. Yeah. You know, and I keep learning that of. Okay, I. I don't have to really knock it out of the park this first time. Let's just figure. Let's. We just want to throw a party. Okay, well, let's do it. And if the worst that happens, we get together and we had some snacks. That sounds like a great night.
- [67:29]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [67:29]
Brad Montague
But if it grows into a movement where there's people in how many countries now?
- [67:36]
Christy Montague
Yeah, I think we're up to 20 countries.
- [67:38]
Brad Montague
20 countries. Every state except New Hampshire and Rhode Island.
- [67:41]
Christy Montague
Get with, you know, anybody else, throw a celebration there.
- [67:46]
Brad Montague
But it grows. And so it's following that desire to add beauty or to add joy, to add something that lights you up, that you want to transfer that and add it, that always leads. The stuff that I resonate with, that people are creating, whether it's a song or an image, a book, an album, whatever, it's usually something somebody was like, ah, if only I could. I could add this noise, this. This joy to the world, and then they find they're not alone.
- [68:26]
Andy J. Pizza
And I think that the book is a great example of this. I think, you know, I think teachers and parents are gonna love it, but even better, kids will love it. It's funny. There's ripped pants in there. There's this ripped pants of dead goldfish, like, gets really good. And I'm really proud to know you two and to be able to watch. I've got to watch so much of your creative journey, and it's been really inspiring. So thanks for the new book. Thanks for continuing to show up and fail and succeed. Thanks for being here, dude.
- [69:07]
Brad Montague
Anytime, Andy. And we got to hang out with Christy, too.
- [69:10]
Andy J. Pizza
I know.
- [69:11]
Brad Montague
It's the most.
- [69:12]
Andy J. Pizza
It's great. It really, you know, soften your edges. Really helps. Really, really help. Just. Just really good. Thanks, guys.
- [69:23]
Christy Montague
Thanks so much.
- [69:46]
Andy J. Pizza
Okay, y'all. Don't Forget to go get a copy of Fail Abration wherever you get your books. Hopefully an indie bookseller, if you can make that work for you. But wherever you get it, go get it. Wherever you get those books, go get Celebration. It's hilarious book and it. It illustrates such an important idea that I think is important for adults and kids alike. I'm back to talk about our creative call to adventure this week. We're calling it the First Word. And the idea here is that it's the opposite of the last word. You know, I think when I go to make something or when I see other people go to create something, often, and we're trying to get there first, man, we're trying to get there first and be the last, put our stamp on it, Be like, this thing is mine and nobody better touch it. I got the last word on this topic or idea. And I'm so inspired by the way that the Montagues continually try to be the first word. They try to be the start of a conversation. You know, Fail Abration has sparked all of these events throughout the world. And I guarantee that people are. Are finding ways of making it their own and making it meaningful to them. And it reminds me, like I said in the interview, of bands like the Grateful Dead, who let their audience participate, who let their audience be part of the band and make merch and make bootlegs and all that kind of stuff. And you don't even have to go that far for it to be worth it to you. You know, for me, this has looked like things like when we post the Invisible Things post, which is a project that's really central to my work, will often be like, tag, which one is you? Just finding this way to invite people in to have ownership and excitement about making it a part of their identity. You know, I think about this a lot. Like, the bands that I love the most weren't just bands whose music I thought sounded good, but they were things that said something about or taught me something new about who I am. And I used those bands in a way as shorthand for my identity. Often joke, like, when I was a teenager, I'd be like, you know, if someone's like, who are you really? I'd be like, I don't know. But I'm a Modest Mouse fan. And that told you something about who I was. And that kind of relationship with a band or creator is the kind of thing that we're trying to steward and cultivate in our creative practice. Because not only is that just good sustainable practice, it's also a way to make the work a lot more meaningful because it becomes not just about me, but my connection to my humanity and the humanity of other people. And I think the Montagues do this brilliantly. So my call to adventure for you today is to think about how can your next post, how can your next book, how can your next song be the first word in a conversation that is ongoing? How can it be just a conversation starter instead of a conversation ender period? Dot the end this is mine. Back off. How can you flip that on its head and be someone who sparks other creations with your creation? Each episode of Creative Pep Talk is designed to help you maintain a consistent creative practice. If you're trying to transform your creativity from an infrequent hobby into a real discipline, sign up to our newsletter@andyjpizza.substack.com so that you never miss an episode. Creative Pep Talk is part of the Podglomerate Network. You can learn more@podglomerate.com Massive thanks to my team, Sophie Miller for content editing and co writing, to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for editing and sound design, and thanks to all of you for listening. Until next time, stay pepped up. Hey y'all, one more quick thing. Earlier this year I rebuilt my website using Squarespace's new Fluid Engine engine and I was so pumped about how it turned out that I have been really thrilled to find as many ways to partner with them and tell you about what they can do and bring you discounts as possible. With social media going haywire, I think having a site that feels as unique as your creative work is essential to building trust with your target audience or your clients. I have had several clients pointing out how cohesive and fresh my site looks lately and if you want to check that out and what I was able to do without any code, check out andyjpizza.com if you want to test it out, go to squarespace.com pep talk to test it out yourself and when you're ready to launch, use promo code pep talk for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks Squarespace for supporting the show and for support creative people. I did consider Barney a friend and he's still a friend to this day.
- [75:08]
Brad Montague
The idea of Barney is something that I want to live up to. You know I love you, you love me. I call it the Purple Mantra.
- [75:18]
Andy J. Pizza
Barney taught me how to be a man.
- [75:23]
Christy Montague
Generation Barney, a popular about the media we loved as kids and how it shapes us.
- [75:28]
Andy J. Pizza
Listen wherever you get your podcasts.