481- Get Lost and Found in Your Work, With Sarah Walsh

Summary

Creative Pep Talk Episode 481: Get Lost and Found in Your Work, With Sarah Walsh

Release Date: November 27, 2024
Host: Andy J. Pizza
Guest: Sarah Walsh, Illustrator and Author of "Horse Girl" Zine

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1. Introduction to Sarah Walsh and Her Creative Journey

In this heartfelt episode of Creative Pep Talk, host Andy J. Pizza welcomes illustrator and author Sarah Walsh, a longtime friend of the show and a returning guest from episode 79. Sarah is renowned for her handcrafted illustrations in books like Hats of Faith and Matilda, and has collaborated with esteemed clients such as PBS, Flow Magazine, Hallmark, and The Guardian. Her latest endeavor, the Horse Girl zine, delves deep into personal narratives with a cinematic flair, embodying the indie spirit that Andy and Sarah passionately advocate for.

Andy (13:04):
"She has this, like, love letter to horses. We had to submit our ideas. I had a few ideas kicking around, but I didn't love them enough."

2. Embracing Authenticity: The Goofy Nerd Persona

Sarah opens up about the industry's perception of artists who embrace humor and goofiness. She expresses a frustration with the creative sector's undervaluing of such traits, especially in fields like children's book illustration and design.

Sarah (10:14):
"But there's part of me that always feels like, oh, time to put on my serious art business hat, you know, and I have to be serious. And it's so silly."

Andy (11:02):
"Yeah, you can see that many of the funny people in comics are like rock stars, but in illustration and children's books, it’s seen differently."

This dialogue underscores the importance of staying true to oneself and the struggle artists face when their authentic voices aren't always celebrated within professional realms.

3. The Birth of the Horse Girl Zine

Sarah narrates the inception of her Horse Girl zine, highlighting the internal battles she faced while trying to align her creative voice with industry expectations. Initially struggling with traditional picture book formats, Sarah found solace and inspiration in her lifelong love for horses, which became the central theme of her zine.

Sarah (19:36):
"Why am I not doing a book about how much I've loved horses? Because I've always kind of pushed that away."

Through a series of realizations, including revisiting her childhood memories and tapping into her intrinsic passions, Sarah was able to channel her creative energy into a project that felt genuinely her own.

4. Overcoming Creative Blocks and Self-Motivation

A significant portion of the conversation delves into the mental challenges creatives face, particularly self-doubt and the struggle to maintain motivation. Both Andy and Sarah share their personal experiences with ADHD and how it impacts their creative processes.

Andy (27:35):
"The reason my projects intimidate me is because it's never about the things on there. No, it's about how do I get myself to do it the most. The hardest opponent to beat."

Sarah (55:29):
"I listen to all of your advice, but honestly, it's really hard to keep all of it in my head and implement it in my life."

They discuss strategies for overcoming procrastination and the importance of creating an environment conducive to productivity, such as collaborating with supportive partners and utilizing tools like zines to bypass the pressure of traditional pitching.

5. The Symbolism of Horses and Childhood Archetypes

Sarah elaborates on how horses symbolize strength, vulnerability, and freedom for her, serving as a metaphor for her personal journey and internal conflicts. This symbolism is intricately woven into her zine, making it a profound exploration of self-identity and the fear of growing up.

Sarah (55:06):
"The book is about that, but it's also about a deeper thing. It's like a mentality, a nerdy mentality."

Andy (66:18):
"Find those images. Find the archetypes. It's about the symbols that speak to you on a deeper level."

This section emphasizes the importance of tapping into childhood passions and archetypes to create work that resonates on a timeless and authentic level.

6. The Power of Zines in Creative Expression

Both hosts advocate for zines as a powerful medium for creatives to explore ideas without the constraints of commercialism. Sarah shares how creating her zine was a liberating experience that allowed her to express her true self and connect deeply with her audience.

Sarah (77:35):
"Just make your own. Just make it and get your ideas out there. There's nothing stopping you from doing that."

Andy (75:53):
"Zines are the key to unlocking your creativity. They allow you to strip it down to the baseline and express yourself freely."

This highlights zines' role in fostering a DIY spirit and providing a platform for genuine artistic expression.

7. Final Insights and Encouragement for Creatives

As the conversation winds down, Andy introduces his upcoming creative call to adventure, the Big Meaty Taste (BMT), which encourages artists to infuse their work with meaningful symbols and archetypes. He urges creatives to revisit their childhood passions to find "meaty" elements that add depth and resonance to their creations.

Andy (80:41):
"Think back to your childhood. Find some big meaty taste to inject into your creative work."

Sarah echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the importance of honoring one's passions and respecting personal creative limitations to foster genuine and impactful work.

Sarah (83:46):
"Just do the thing. Just do it first and make sure you even like doing it."

Conclusion

Episode 481 of Creative Pep Talk serves as an inspiring narrative on embracing authenticity, overcoming creative hurdles, and the profound impact of personal symbolism in art. Sarah Walsh's journey with her Horse Girl zine exemplifies the transformative power of staying true to one's passions and using creative mediums like zines to navigate and express complex personal narratives. Andy and Sarah's dialogue offers valuable insights and actionable strategies for creatives striving to build a thriving and authentic creative practice.

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Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Walsh [10:14]: "I have to be serious. And it's so silly."
• Andy J. Pizza [13:04]: "She has this, like, love letter to horses."
• Sarah Walsh [19:36]: "Why am I not doing a book about how much I've loved horses?"
• Andy J. Pizza [27:35]: "The hardest opponent to beat."
• Sarah Walsh [55:29]: "It's really hard to keep all of it in my head and implement it in my life."
• Sarah Walsh [77:35]: "Just make your own. Just make it and get your ideas out there."
• Andy J. Pizza [80:41]: "Find those images. Find the archetypes."
• Sarah Walsh [83:46]: "Just do the thing. Just do it first and make sure you even like doing it."

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For more insights and inspiration, subscribe to Creative Pep Talk and follow Sarah Walsh at Sarah-Walsh-Makes-Things.com and on Instagram.

Transcript

[Andy J. Pizza]

On the creative journey, it's easy to get lost, but don't worry, you'll lift off. Sometimes you just need a creative pep talk. Hey, you're listening to Creative Pep Talk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. I'm your host, Andy J. Pizza. I'm a New York Times Best selling author and illustrator and this show is just everything I'm learning about building and maintaining a thriving creative practice. Let's get into it I'm a believer in the idea of dressing for the job you want, not the job you have. And I have applied this to my creative practice too, which means if you want professional results, you need to present online like a pro. And that means going beyond social media and having a professional website that reflects your style and looks legit. I rebuilt my site this year with Squarespace's Fluid Engine and was so happy with how easily I could build my vision without coding that when they approached me to support the show, I jumped at the chance because I love and use this product. So go check it out squarespace.com peptalk to test it out for yourself. And when you're ready to launch your site, use promo code peptalk all one word, all caps for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks goes out to Squarespace for supporting the show and supporting creators all over the world. Miro is a collaborative virtual workspace that syncs in real time for you and your team so that you can innovate an idea into an outcome seamlessly. We talk a lot on this show about the idea of how creative research shows that playing with the problem is essential to innovation. Now when I think of play, I don't think of documents and email, so if your team is often working remote, you need something more dynamic and collaborative. I think that Miro's mind maps and flowcharts, where team members can edit and play in real time, has a lot more capacity for innovation and playing with the problem than traditional ways of collaborating over the Internet. Whether you work in innovation, product design, engineering, ux, agile or it, bring your teams to Miro's revolutionary Innovation Workspace and be faster. From idea to outcome. Go to miro.com to find out how. That's M I R O.com illustrator Sarah Walsh is on the show today. Sarah is a longtime friend of the show, one of our first guests ever on Creative Pep Talk, all the way back on episode 79 and she returns today. Sarah has illustrated a ton of books, Hats of Faith, a gorgeous illustrated version of the book Matilda, which is a family favorite of ours, and countless Others. She's also worked with a ton of well known clients and brands like PBS and Flow Magazine, hallmark, the guardian, etc. So on and so forth. Her handcrafted art is so beautiful and we both have an affinity for the likes of Mary Blair and that kind of chalky gouache vibe. And my favorite thing about Sarah, beyond her brilliant illustration is she's just super fun to chat with. And I cried laughing in this talk and I was moved and inspired and it was just so much fun. She has a new project out. It is called Horse Girl and it's a zine that she wrote and illustrated and it is moving and it's a cinematic zine, I kid you not. It's just really brilliant. Highly recommend picking this up, especially if you're a horse girl, even if you weren't. I wasn't a horse girl, but I got tons from it and I was really inspired by it. This episode has more of that indie spirit that we've kind of been harping on about and ranting about in almost every episode lately. I feel like the way that tech and, you know, Silicon Valley has just moved into the creative space and kind of owned it means that we need to get the DIY spirit, the punk spirit, the zine spirit back and start owning our own creative projects in the real world and on the Internet. But we need to take ownership over our creativity. And this zine that Sarah put out I think really is a great example of that. We talk about stuff along those lines. We talk about why you should quit waiting to be picked by a publisher or record label or whatever and just start making. And there's also inspiration in this episode for how to get more of yourself, more of your substance into your work by mining everything that happened and what you were like and what you're obsessed by as a kid and stick until the end. And I'll be back with our creative call to adventure called bmt. Big meaty taste like the Subway sandwich. How to make your work bigger, meatier, tastier, by packing it full of the good stuff. Not just making fashionable stuff, but how to give it real heart, real substance, by tapping into your own personal symbolism. I'll be back with that, but for now, enjoy my fabulous chat with my friend Sarah Walsh.

[Sarah Walsh]

I don't necessarily care what people think, but I'm definitely like a modifier and I want people to feel comfortable around me. And so I immediately mold. Not mold, but you know what I mean. I'm just like, and I think I'm a mom, like I've been a mom since I was very young, so I'm just constantly picking up, you know, cues on, like, are they having a good time? Are they. You know, but you know what? When we're adults, I'm like, it is on you if you're not having a good time. That is not my responsibility. Like, I'm trying to, like, step back.

[Andy J. Pizza]

From that, but it's hard for me. It's very hard. I mean, I. I think, I think if you're a sensitive person, then you're sensitive to other people's emotions and their states of being. And so you're there. Like, I want to feel good right now, but I can't feel good. And you're feeling so bad. It's very unhealthy. But it is the way that I. That's my nature. I've had to learn a lot about that.

[Sarah Walsh]

I know my husband and I went to the back to school night where the teachers give presentations. These three teachers were on it. I felt like I was at a TED Talk. And one of the slides. I'm serious. And one of the slides was like a crochet, a cross stitched plaque that said, I can be okay even if you are not okay.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's good.

[Sarah Walsh]

And it hit me like a brick. And I like fumbled from my phone and I took a picture of it and I was like, can I have these people as teachers in life? Like, I just. It.

[Andy J. Pizza]

What was it, a poster?

[Sarah Walsh]

It was like a cross stitch, like home sweet home type thing. But it said I'm. I can be okay even if you're not okay.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

And I just. Seeing that, I realized that that is something I struggle with. And yeah, I still think about it. And that was like a year and a half ago. So.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, there's a lot there. Also, you know, I think the. There's two things that I've. I've heard someone say, like, you can carry these two pieces of paper in your pocket. And this could. I feel like this could apply to any polarizing truths where that one was like, you are meaningful and important in all the universe. And then the other piece of paper that you put in your other pocket is like, you are a speck of dust.

[Sarah Walsh]

I know. No.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And you just pull out whichever one you need because to me, I am the type of person that needs to read that sentiment because I, I get crippled with empathy.

[Sarah Walsh]

Oh, for sure.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And you know, and getting taken advantage of for that. Whereas there are other people who need to hear the exact opposite, which is like, that you Know, the opposite sentiment comes to mind that's also true is like, you know, justice we need. Everyone needs justice or none of us have it. Like.

[Sarah Walsh]

Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

So there's like, this very. Yeah. What?

[Sarah Walsh]

Teacher. Teacher, teacher. You just said something, and I. Because I was thinking about how, you know, I was, like, excited to see today and talking to you, and I thought about you as a person, and I thought about me as a person, and I think about how much you've accomplished and done, and I think about my journey and how much I feel.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Like you've done a ton.

[Sarah Walsh]

I'll just say I've accomplished some cool things, but at the same time, you know, whatever. But I thought about just what our industry values and what it doesn't value. And I think when you get invited to go on a podcast, you sort of. Especially one as fantastic as yours and, you know, has a lot of listeners, and I think most of the listeners are pretty sweet, nice people, too.

[Andy J. Pizza]

They are. Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

But, like, there's part of. There's a part of me that always feels like, oh, time to put on my serious art business hat, you know, And I have to be serious.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

And it's so silly. And I was thinking about how, like, I'm a goofy nerd weirdo. And I. And I say this as a compliment. I feel like you're the same.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I am.

[Sarah Walsh]

And most of my friends are goofy. And here's my point. I swear to God, I'm getting to it. I wonder sometimes if our industry doesn't. They don't value, like, goofy people like design illustration. Maybe when you get into more comics, like, the funny people are like the rock stars.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

But I feel like the children's book industry and design, just humor and goofiness as a person, I feel like it's like, it lacks authoritative vibes.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

And therefore is not perceived as. To me, maybe this is maybe just a little chip I have on my shoulder.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I mean, I think you're totally right. Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

But I wanted to talk to you about it because I know. I've wondered if you've had similar thoughts as, like, you're on this path and you've done things your own way. And I've tried to do my two things my own way, too, because in the end, like, you can't. You have to just be yourself and. Sounds cliche, but especially when you're freelancing, you have to put out there who you want to be and what kind of work you want to be. You can't be. You can't. I'M going to just channel dad energy right now. But I have this, like, really. I have this. Here's my dad energy coming out. It was, like, cheesy metaphor of, like, when you're freelancing and you start out, you have this brick, and you. You decide to make a house out of it, and you're like, oh, cool. And you get. You're really good at making that house, and people are like, I want you to make that house for me. But you have to make sure that you like the brick. See how dad energy that is? It's just like. It's like, so, like.

[Andy J. Pizza]

But it's. That's just my corny. But the bad energy metaphor, that's. That's just what it is. You're right in the right place.

[Sarah Walsh]

But it's like, if I tried to be this serious artist, I would hate what I'm doing, and I would hate my. I would hate everything. What's the point of that?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

So anyway. Exactly.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And, you know, it's a great segue into. One of the main things I want to talk to you about is the horse girl zine.

[Sarah Walsh]

Oh, yeah. You got it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Absolutely. Love. I love that you did this. Hilarious. I want to talk about specific things in it that are super great.

[Sarah Walsh]

Oh, man. That makes my heart, like, thank you so much. So nice.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And I'm excited for people and, you know, the people that listen to the show to see it and hear about it, because it's really, really good. And I think it's a great example of exactly what artists need to do, which is just, you know, triple down on the thing that makes them. Them for whatever reason. And I think that you talking about goofiness, it brings up one of the things I wanted to say, which was in the. We'll talk about, like, well, let's just do this. You talk about it first, because it makes more sense.

[Sarah Walsh]

I don't know what to say now.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Everyone will.

[Sarah Walsh]

He likes the thing I made.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I love it. It's so good.

[Sarah Walsh]

Oh, thanks, man.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And it's got so much heart. And it's got some, like. It's juicy and it's funny, and it's got, like, emotions. Really, really good. It's good, right?

[Sarah Walsh]

Oh, man. That, like, means the world for real. I. I don't. It's weird. Like, I. The last several months have been just such a blur that I'm like. I don't. I don't know, like, what to say, but I am really proud of myself, and I. But I'm really. I guess, part of it was like. I had the idea kicking around for, like, a year, but sort of a long story as to how it came to be. But I've just been wanting to write and illustrate forever. Like many, many illustrators that, you know, we are little kids, we have picture books. It's like, it's. It's everything. Picture books are everything. And just telling a story, especially as, like, a. Just as a human being. And they're like these portals to another world. And they can. I mean, illustration as a profession is so powerful. We can literally create realities that don't exist yet that should exist, that don't forget stupid reasons, injustice, all that jazz. But, like, I think it's just always been such a powerful medium. And so I think I put it on this ginormous pedestal.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes.

[Sarah Walsh]

And then you go back to, like, being a serious artist. Like, I was like, well, I think picture books are my. My route. Like, obviously, I didn't even question it, but as I tried to write them and develop my voice for them, it got really unfun. And then I had to put it away. And then I took some classes, and I was getting closer to, like, the voice, but I was still making things really complicated. Honestly, I feel like at one point I was like, I have two kids. I was like, I feel like writing and illustrating a picture book. I think I'd rather like. I think having another human child, like, giving birth to another human child might be easier than doing this. Like, I swear to God, I was like, this feels so impossible for some reason. And I think it felt impossible because I was forcing. I was forcing a voice that I wasn't meant to have yet. I wasn't listening to my. Just my voice. I guess I was trying to fit me and this voice, I didn't know what was yet into a shape, and it wasn't fitting. And so I was about five years into, like, trying to figure that out. Meanwhile, I was illustrating everyone else's books, which I am so grateful for, and I've learned so much. I mean, I was able to illustrate a Roald Dahl book, and that was, like, insane. And so, so many wonderful opportunities. But at the same time, as, you know, the publishing industry, there's lots of, you know, you don't have a lot of autonomy sometimes. And as I've been doing this for a long time, like, I'm just wanting more and more of my weirdness to come out because it gets harder and harder to, like, do it over and over again, unless more of you is in that thing. So basically, Long story short, it's already long. Too late. I'm taking this class, or I'm taking classes, I'm trying, I'm hitting my head against the wall, I'm learning things, I'm falling, I'm getting up, blah, blah, blah. And then my agent, Lilla, she was like, she was teaching this class called Arty Book Pitch. And it was more like nonfiction, maybe some memoir, graphic memoir, whatever. But not like a traditional picture book.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

And something told me, I was like, God, you know, if I, if I take this class, I'm like sort of feeling like it's going to derail this path I've been on. And I'm like fitting this in on top of client work, being a mom, all this other stuff that we juggle, as we all know, that kind of stuff can just lead to like a bunch of open ended trails that never finish.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

So I was like, is this just going to be another one of those things? But I just have this feeling. And I was like, I have been posting on Instagram forever and I've always heard, like, I've gotten some really nice comments over the years of, like, you really explain how you feel so well and like, what you say resonates with me. I realized I was like posting a picture and then my caption would literally have nothing to do with the picture, but they were two separate statements. I mean, it would have, it would be a segue. Yeah, but. And I was like, I need to. How can I figure out, like, I can write, you know, imposter syndrome times a thousand. But I was like, I have, I've written over 2,500 Instagram posts. Most of them are very personal. Why can't I figure this out? So I took the class because I had a feeling that I could maybe explore that voice. And then I got the idea for this, like, love letter to horses. We had to submit our ideas. I had a few ideas kicking around, but I didn't love them enough. And I was really frustrated. I was like, this doesn't feel right. I don't love this enough. I know I'm going to get sick of this. And I was texting a friend, like, I don't know what the hell to submit for my idea. I was kind of venting and I found this like, horse meme that was like perfectly expressing how I felt. And I sent it. And I was sitting on the floor, like, just hanging out with my husband. He was like playing a video game. And I was just like, blah, blah, blah. I was just totally like, In a weird mood. And then I just. It hit me. I was like, why the f. Am I not. Oh, I can.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Cool.

[Sarah Walsh]

Okay. Why the fuck am I not doing a book about how much I've loved horses? Because I've always kind of pushed that away. I. I was watching my. I was being, like, a really. I don't know. I was, like, watching my husband play video games because I needed to not, like, think.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. And I was like, what was he playing?

[Sarah Walsh]

It's so boring to watch other people play video games. I don't even know some Mario games.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Sophie does it actually.

[Sarah Walsh]

Yeah, like, from time to time. But in a way, it's, like, comforting because I don't play video games, but I like the graphics and I like the vibe. But anyway, so I was.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Speaking of memes, though. I've heard people say that there's nothing more, like, in power than the person watching the person. Person play. They don't even have to play. They can just be like, go over there. Oh, you should.

[Sarah Walsh]

Why? That's what I do. It's like. It's like backseat driver.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, it is. It's like being the. You know, the monarch in the back seat.

[Sarah Walsh]

It's very.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Go that way.

[Sarah Walsh]

Voyeur.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's funny. Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

I was voyeur. Ing. I was complaining. I sent a meme of a horse that perfectly explained my frustration. And then I'll just. Now I can't repeat it. I was like, just. It just hit me. I was like, why am I. Why am I, like, not doing a book about horses? And. And I guess it seems. It seemed obvious to me. If you look at my work, I'm not, like, drawing horses all the time or anything like that. They pop up every now and then.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

But I kind of shy away from labels. I'm not like a. I'm a. This person. I'm at that person. And I also. I think growing up, I loved them so much, and they were this weird identity to me, but I was. But I wouldn't own that identity, if that makes sense. It was, like this current, like, running through my existence, but it wasn't. It was internal. It wasn't like, this external thing. But anyway, I was like, okay, I think I'm gonna just do a love letter to horses. And it. And I. It felt really good. And then this is where I was like, oh, wow. You have been forcing it this whole time? The past five years. Because then what happened was so cool. All of a sudden, I just had the book sort of wrote itself. And then. I know that sounds so cliche when people say that. But it was like, whoa. It just kind of exploded with all these childhood memories of horse. Just horse related. Whether it was like, with my grandmother or just my obsession movies. Just the horses that I would draw.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

And I don't remember a lot from my childhood, but it was interesting to see this, like, through line.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

And so it just felt so good to feel like, oh, wow, I know what I'm going to write about. I know how I'm going to write it because it's just me. So I did the pitch and everyone really liked it and that was cool and everything, but then I kind of just fell flat and I ran out of steam. It just felt like something else was missing. And I sent it to a friend who's a writer and she had suggested a main character and like a graphic novel memoir. And I was like, main character? I don't know. And so basically I kind of put that aside. But I was still working on the idea and developing it. But I was. I kind of put this thing on. Like, this isn't going away. I'm going to show up for it and it's going to show up for me. But we are not perfect for each other yet. But we're, like, still going to be friends. And I'm going to nibble away at this, even if it's like, while I'm walking my dog. If that's all I have time for, that's all I have time for.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

And then it hit me. I was thinking about my son, who's 10. And I was like, man, 10 is such a weird, cool age. Like, it's so, like, coming of age and like, you're at this precipice.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

And I thought, wow, I wonder what I was like when I was 10. And then I was like, oh, my God, what year was it? Because I love the 80s and 70s. And I was like, oh, my God, it was 1984. And I looked up all the things that came out and it was like, Neverending Story, the Prince, Purple Rain, Prince album, Chicken McNuggets. Like, all these things that are basically my personality. And then I was like, oh, my God, I'm the main character. I'm 10 in this story. And then it was over. I was like, oh, shit. I know what I have to do now. I know the story I want to tell. I know how I'm going to tell it. And then it was just a matter of me showing up every day and working on it without that external pressure of a client deadline. So I had to create that whole environment for myself because I know that's what I need to get things done. So I linked up with a local printer, a risograph printer, because I wanted that neon pink for the 80s vibe.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yep.

[Sarah Walsh]

And then I also thought, well, the icon conference is coming up. I've been sort of slow. I'd like to shift the ship of my career into more of this kind of work. And this would be a great opportunity. If I bring the zine with me, I can hand it out to people, I can sell it. And so it just provided this environment for me to make it my job, basically.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yep.

[Sarah Walsh]

And. And that's how I was able to finish it, which I've. The horse girl zine is basically for me. I've never been able to do something like that before. And it felt really out of reach, like two years ago, I'm not gonna lie. Like, just felt impossible.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, that. Honestly, that's. That was one of the big things that I wanted to talk to you about because I've heard you talk about that and I deeply relate to that. That is the mental game of, you know, I think about my particular struggle with getting myself to do anything, mainly through the lens of adhd. But I think whoever you are, wherever you are, creative people have these different challenges. Everyone has challenges on self motivation. And I've thought about how for sure, for me, it's never about, you know, could I come up with ideas or, you know, do I have the skill or whatever. All the reason that these. My to do list intimidates me. The real. The reason my projects intimidate me is because it's never. It's never about, I was going to write a comic about this. It's never about the things on there. No, it's about how do I. It's the. There's another to do in front of that, which is getting myself to do it the most. The hardest opponent to be, the one that's beat me so many times. I don't know how this guy works. He's so tricky. He gets me so far off course before I even know what the hell's going on. And so that's that. Every. Every single time I look at my to do list, I'm like, well, I'm like, shit, how am I gonna. How am I gonna do it this time? How am I get this guy and you do it. I've done that.

[Sarah Walsh]

You get that guy. You've done great. You're doing it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I'm doing it. Sometimes half the Time I am the times I figured it out, I can do it.

[Sarah Walsh]

Do you procrast a work? I feel like I do that a lot and it is so effective. But then I still have to face the music at the end of the day and do that thing that I procrastina worked away.

[Andy J. Pizza]

So I want to get into some of those things that you did to help yourself motivate in a minute. But first, could we go somewhere else?

[Sarah Walsh]

Let's go.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I want to talk about. That's a good, like, overview of this project. I think that there's a million good takeaways in terms of just. Yeah, there's so many good things there. But one of them was the idea of. So the, the thing at the start that kind of segued into this was you talking about goofy artists and I was thinking about. There was. There was two prompts that came to mind after I read your zine. One, maybe we'll go at the end. But the first one is, you know, there's a moment in it where the past you as a 10 year old and current you meet up and she's like, past you is proud that you didn't let go of being a horse girl. And I thought, okay, I know there are things that 10 year old me would be super psyched on that I did and that I kept with. But I also instantly thought, what would 10 year old me be disappointed in? What would 10 year old me be? Like, that's not really you. And I know that's kind of harsh.

[Sarah Walsh]

Oh, that is so hard to like think about.

[Andy J. Pizza]

But the first thing that came to mind for me was, and people won't believe this because in our world, design world, illustration world, I'm extremely goofy. But the first thing that came to mind was he would be like, dude, why are you so serious all the time?

[Sarah Walsh]

I was. No, I relate to this so, so much. I can't even. Yeah, I'm like. It's like a weird combo of traits to be. It's like, it's like you don't take yourself too seriously, but you take what you do with the seriousness of every amoeba cell in your body. Like, it's like I am obsessed with making things and I think about it all the time. I. I feel like the other person, like if there was like, you know, the other voices in my head, they'd be like, girl, you need to chill. Like, it's like, can you like think about other things and do other. Like, you need to dial it back a little bit because it Just gets it sort of could maybe gobble things up. Like it's a little bit of a gobbler. It gobbles a little bit of joy. Even though I get so much joy from making and creating, the longer I do it, it's kind of like it feels a little imbalanced. It's consuming, but I don't know how else to be. It's very consuming. It's very consuming and I totally relate to that. And, and I think my 10 year old would be like, go eat a chicken McNugget and like watch some MTV, you know, just like chill out.

[Andy J. Pizza]

But I love that that could be the call to action at the end. Like that's what we go watch MTV, eat some Chicken McNuggets, you'll be fine. Yeah, and I think, but, and I, yeah, I told, I totally relate to that. And then I just think, go, what are we gonna say?

[Sarah Walsh]

Oh, I just want to say I'm really glad you brought the growing up part up because I think I do want to. How do I say this? Not that I don't want people to think, oh, it's about horses and it's, you know, My Pretty Pony and Pink and all that. And I, I am part of, part of doing this project is like embracing that and going, yeah, that's part of who I am. What of it? Like, it's, it's powerful, it's amazing. I don't care what you think because it's always been sort of like in a way dismissed like, oh, unicorns. And it's like they were everything for a second and then they weren't again and then blah, blah, blah, but it's, they're magical. But my point is like the book is about, the book is about that, but it's also sort of not, it's really, it could though. Horses can be anything. It's more about the fear of growing up, the fear of what you think you'll become. It's about being that 10 year old. And I remember just thinking adults seemed like a 20 year old. Seemed so old. They seemed so old to me. Like I didn't, could not distinguish someone that was 20 from like 40. Like they all looked the same, seemed the same. My childhood was very chaotic. There was a lot of great things about it, but there was a lot of not so great things. And just adults in my life, you just absorb their behavior. You absorb, they set the tone for just how you're, you're framing things in the world. And so, you know, if I were to do A book version of this. I would definitely want to dive a little deeper into that. And also just like how you perceive yourself with, you know, in the 80s, if you weren't skinny, you were fat, and there was literally no in between. And I struggled with weight, I got teased, you know, just certain things like that. And so part of you in a way does want to grow up because you feel like you'll get a sense of control, you'll get more control and you'll be able to like defeat the bullies or whatever. But we all know that's not really true now. So you kind of resort to your 10 year old in a way. You're like, oh, honey, you know, you, that was, that was an illusion, you know, there's no control. But yeah, I mean, I just, it's about growing up, a lot of it and, and just not wanting to and also preserving that part of you. Because I think a lot of people feel like when they grow up, they have to put a lot of their. Who they are like, aside to fit in and to function in society. And that makes me really sad. It makes me kind of angry. It makes me want to, you know, like, scream from the top of a mountain. Like, you don't have to do this. Like, you know, like a Trey. You, like say my name. You know, it's just like, no, just be who you are and love the things you love and don't ever let them go. Like, hold on to them for like dear life because it might save you.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Sometimes, you know, I think what. One of the things that I try to remember is that when I'm feeling the feeling of. I wish I could put this on a billboard. I wish I could like that. That's great creative energy. Like, that's, that's what to write a story about. And so that feeling of like, I want to go get on a mountain. Be like, you don't have to do this, like, okay, we'll tell that story. And why do you feel that way? Like, what?

[Sarah Walsh]

Right?

[Andy J. Pizza]

What happened? What are the. What happened in your life that made that way? Yeah. And the plot of it too. Like, what actually happened. And there's so, man, there's so much good stuff here because I think the through line of everything we're talking about is this image and masking and trying to be something you're not trying to. And I, and the thing that I think is really interesting is so I, I never get tired of the hero's journey for some reason, but I just like frameworks. I like stories, whatever I like all that kind of stuff, but one of the things that I think is just a really good image is in the hero's journey, like I think most myths and stories are, they're really like, psychological journeys. You can read them as external things, or you can read them as internal things. And most of the idea of the hero journey is you go away from home and then you return home. And so psychologically, it's about the necessary journey of trying to be something you're currently not, to find out what you really are.

[Sarah Walsh]

No. So true.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You just go through it over and over. And I thought, as you were saying that. I thought you going through this, forcing it, period. A lot of artists, you know, they come out the other side, and I. It reminds me of the metaphor. The dad metaphor I have is. It's like a slingshot. Like, a lot. If you do a slingshot and it flings this thing far into the distance, and you say, well, what's the thing that mattered? Like, when did it really happen?

[Sarah Walsh]

Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You'd say, when I let go. And you're like, yeah. But it was the tension of pulling it back. Like, and so that forcing that you did. I. The reason I bring that up is because if I'm in the listener shoes and I'm. Or I think about myself hearing this 15 years ago, I would be really. I. Even now. Even now, I'm thinking the goofy thing of, like, why am I. Why can't I let my goofiness out in my books more? Some of my books have some goofiness for sure. The pizza book and Invisible Things both.

[Sarah Walsh]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

But I could go. I'm so much weirder than that. I promise you. I'm so. And I'm trying to figure out, like, how do I get that into a book so I can hear that? But then I thought that, no, like, the forcing. It is part of it, because it. It, you know, pushes you. It grows you. It shows you what you're not, and that helps you understand.

[Sarah Walsh]

Like, so true. It's.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

It's like context, tension and context. Because if there's no tension.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

I remember my high school art teacher, she was like, where's the tension? It's like. I think I'm like. Now I'm like, well, I worked at a greeting card company for 13 years. There's literally no tension in any of my work. You know, just like, what do you. I was trained to not have tension.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Can we get rid of attention? Hallmark does not want the tension. Like, they don't get it. Out there. This isn't a story. Like, no.

[Sarah Walsh]

No greeting card. I mean, that's. That's not what we're selling. We're selling, like, happy vibes, happy ending.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Not that there's no. You don't start with the problem. Like, here's the conflict of the card that I wanted to get in there.

[Sarah Walsh]

Potential.

[Andy J. Pizza]

So you're old. Okay, let's deal with it.

[Sarah Walsh]

It sucks, actually, but they are.

[Andy J. Pizza]

They have the joke ones, I guess.

[Sarah Walsh]

Actually, the humor. The humor ones do have tension, you know, so. Yeah. Because to be funny. Yeah. You have to bounce. I feel like tension makes things like it just does. And I think, too, like, if you were a blob and you were just hanging out with other blobs and everything was kosher all the time, what would develop? Like, literally nothing. Nothing, nothing. Just. You would all just be blobs. Like, hanging out and blobbing against each other. And your blobs would be blobbing and nothing would form.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, it's true. It's like. Yeah, it's like way back in the past when it was just like one celled organism blobbing around like that. The more complex it gets, the more interesting it gets, the more you gotta have some tension and conflict.

[Sarah Walsh]

You bring in a really spiky cell. Now we're talking.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Like, now I got the booba and the. What's the other one? You know, this thing. What's it. What is it called?

[Sarah Walsh]

This is a crazy conversation.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Do you know that thing, Kiki and booba? You don't know this? Go look that up. Do your afternoon off. I can't believe you haven't heard this, because I just.

[Sarah Walsh]

Well, maybe I have.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I'm really blob and then like a spiky shape. And it's basically like. It's like a personality test. It's like you can't. It's. You know, you can say, like, oh, which one do I like? Which one feels more me? It's basically like a little blob.

[Sarah Walsh]

I'm.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Bon problem Spiky thing.

[Sarah Walsh]

I'm. I'm neither. I'm gonna play Kiki Kiki and bouba booba bop.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I don't know. Something like that. Like B O U, B A. But. But I'm.

[Sarah Walsh]

I'm. I'm neither one of those, I think. And that's been something of my whole life. I'm never. I'm never one thing and I'm never the other. I'm literally always in between things.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes.

[Sarah Walsh]

And I've talked to some friends who feel the same way. And it makes things complicated, especially as an artist.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And I definitely relate to that for sure.

[Sarah Walsh]

And I. Maybe it's. I think it's more common than not, actually, but I think we're just sort of trained to think, well, I'm this and I'm that, but I'm like, I don't. You know, but.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Okay, yeah, go check it out. It's interesting. It's interesting to me especially because, like, kind of gets into. There's a lot of that kind of thing and invisible things where you're trying to personify abstraction. So, like, part of it is. Like, part of that test is about, like. Like is. I can't remember how. I can't remember it exactly, but something like categorizing flavors as either smooth or spiky, like these synesthetic leaps. And what happens is, like, these things that are kind of nonsensical, but when they categorize in this way, if you ask a hundred people, is that sound spiky or smooth, they'll answer pretty consistently. Okay, so it's like the connection between feeling and shape and.

[Sarah Walsh]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Connections of the senses, you know?

[Sarah Walsh]

Anyway, have you. Have you watched. Have you watched that movie A Problemista? Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

No, I haven't even heard of it. No.

[Sarah Walsh]

Oh, my God. I can't stop. I can't stop thinking about it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

What is it?

[Sarah Walsh]

The reason why I bring it up is because he has also a standup show and he. I think it's called. I'm gonna. I'm gonna Butcher this. I'm really bad at remembering certain things. Like. But it's about shapes, but basically it's Julio Torres, but the movie is autobiographical and he's an artist. But did you see everything everywhere all at once?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes. Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

Okay. So do you know that the perspective on that just kind of like a very visual, like, ADHD person, like, making a film and how they perceive the world and, like, how you're making me think about. Because he. In. In the show that he has also called fat, there's like three things that he has out. There's like the stand up and then there's phantasmas or phantasma. But he does this whole bit about the letter he start. He does this whole bit about the letter Q. He does this whole bit about the Alphabet and, like, their personalities.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Okay.

[Sarah Walsh]

Like, yeah, it's so. I'm just. It's so in between, like, how he is picking up on senses and how things are explained and, like, how a sound would look Visually, like the way that everything you're saying is very much like how this person's brain works to me. But. But Q. It was so good. The Q, he just. They. I don't want to give anything away and I'm going to butcher it and do a horrible job. So I don't want to, like, ruin it, but just, just. Yeah, I'll try.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I did an episode and I think a talk once about how I. Because that the personalities with letters or numbers is a recognized type of synesthesia.

[Sarah Walsh]

Yes.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I think it's one of the only ones that I genuinely have. And I did a talk about. Not a talk about it, but I mentioned it in a talk as like an example of something. As a joke of like, I got an advanced math later. Like, if I had as much time as I. And I'm not good at it. I always talk about math and numbers are like in. In the back room of my brain. I can get them, but it's like I have to. Like, it's not easy. And so, but especially, like, times tables were a nightmare because the timed times tables, I would be like that all the numbers had personalities. They genuinely do. And so I'd be literally find myself thinking about like, oh, seven and four. Shit. Oh, man, they're in the. They're in the same room. Don't go there. Good.

[Sarah Walsh]

Don't get them. That's. Don't get those two together.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Don't get them started.

[Sarah Walsh]

Why is. Why is eight, like, just so reliable and like, like, like a big bear hug. Like, I feel like eight would give you like a bear hug.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, exactly. That's. It's the smooth whole. Like, it's like, yeah, wholeness times two. That's why it's two circles. Like, come on. I totally agree. Hey, in case you don't know, we have a monthly live virtual meetup every last Monday of the month with supporters of the show from Patreon and Substack. We have so much fun on these calls and they are the warmest, most encouraging creatives that I have ever met. And we also talk real creative practice stuff. We have authors, illustrators, lettering artists, picture book makers, fine artists, musicians, and folks that work in video and film as well. And we have people that are just starting out, people super established in their creative careers and everything in between. For the rest of this year, we're going to chat through our new new Journey of the True Fan series, exploring questions and ways to apply these ideas to your own creative practice so that you can leave 2024 stronger than you came in with more visibility, connection with your audience, and sales. Sign up to whichever suits you best@ either patreon.com creativepeptalk or andyjpizza.substack.com and I hope to see you at this month's meetup. I want to go back to some thing, but it's escaping me now.

[Sarah Walsh]

We are so far out on a limb right now.

[Andy J. Pizza]

We are so very happy. Makes it very. Oh, okay. It's the hero's journey thing. It makes me very happy because it gets. It's right what we're talking about, which is this thing of, you know, putting yourself into the work in a way that it's not forced, getting out of your. Out of your way. And I feel like the. The hero's journey thing, I just wanted to add one little bit, was instead of worrying about whether you're at the. At home in yourself or are you currently on a journey out, trying to be something else. I think looking back in the moment, I could never know which one I.

[Sarah Walsh]

Was in no way.

[Andy J. Pizza]

But you could always be trying to make progress towards yourself. And sometimes that progress looked like, I.

[Sarah Walsh]

Think so getting away.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And sometimes it actually, like, was returning. Does that make sense?

[Sarah Walsh]

Yeah. I mean, 100. I feel like every time I. I make art, like, I did this quick little zine to get, like, a sense of satisfaction. I can't. I can't say enough about zines. I will talk about them all day and the power of like. But I did the. I end it with. I make things so that. So I can know myself. And like, just the idea of getting lost in your work to be found. And it sounds corny or whatever, but it's just kind of like, that's kind of what I do, like, over and over again, like a lot of people and just. It's weird. It's like I know myself, but then I also kind of don't. You know, I. Of course I know myself, but then I'm like, well, I don't know who this fucking person is. Honestly, I do and I don't. And I'm becoming more at peace with that. It used to make me feel uncomfortable and, like, think that there was something wrong with me because of that. And then now the older I get and I think there's more conversations centered around the, like, normalizing that, especially as a creative person, which I love. Yeah, I feel like I'm. Yeah, I'm okay with that. And it's. I think it's honestly helped me become more of myself by now. I Feel like this is so meta, but I feel like I've become more myself by being okay with sort of knowing who I am and not knowing.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, that hurt my brain totally. I totally relate. And I. And I think that the. I genuinely think that that that's really what the zine is about. There's two pieces for me that really. That I wanted to talk about. One was that there's a lot of, like, there's a lot about image in there. I think, for instance, this notion of, can you be a horse girl if you don't own a horse? And it reminded me of, like, how many albums do you have to have memorized to wear the T shirt of the band?

[Sarah Walsh]

Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You know, and what does it. And that right there is like a. You can't trust your identity. You can't trust that you love this thing because of how other people may criticize you. You.

[Sarah Walsh]

Well. And then also it sort of becomes like, this pissing contest. Like. Well, I like horses more.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes.

[Sarah Walsh]

Like, I was doing when I was creating the zine, I was like, do I love them enough? Like, I know I love them, and they're part of, like, the fiber of my being. Like, I swear to God, when I look at horses, I see myself. And I know that sounds so weird to say.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Thank you for saying that.

[Sarah Walsh]

I can't believe that I just said that out loud.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Oh, my. The podcast just got 10 times better because you said that.

[Sarah Walsh]

But that's a weird.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Talking about that. Please.

[Sarah Walsh]

It's just a weird thing to say, but I think. Because when you love something so much when you're a kid.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

You just project so much on the thing that you love. Like, the thing you love sort of becomes your home. And I think, too, I'm sort of. I'm glad I didn't own a horse. Or like, because I think the idea of it became more important to me than the thing itself. Like, I lived in the idea of the thing, and that became my home when things didn't feel safe or I wasn't comfortable. And I think that's what I want to clear the air about. About this little zine. Because I think it's easy to sort of write it off like, oh, pink and purple and horses. And I want to be like, oh, no, hold on a minute. Because it really is so. And the people that get it, they get it. And I. So I can't tell you how much I appreciate you getting it. It makes me feel really good and seen and. And I've been. I've just I've just enjoyed so much, like, the dms and when we're tabling at events, like, people will just look at it and like, they. They, like. I see this, like, sea change on their face of just like, the shift. And I'm like. And then we just like, have these sweaty, intense conversations about, like. And it just. It's. It feels like, so galvanizing to me. Like, I feel like, okay, I'm not a joiner and I've never been a club person, but, like, whatever this is, I'm in. Like, this feels so real and good to me. And. And again, it's. It's not a. It's about horses, but it's not. It's like a deeper thing. It's like a mentality, I guess, like a nerdy, like, because I don't think it was like. I think horses are sort of perceived as feminine, but they're. I don't know how to explain it, but they're, like, really strong. They're really strong and they're really vulnerable, but they're also very vulnerable, you know, and they break something in a certain way. You know, there's that cliche like, oh, gotta put her down. You know, they are hard workers, but they're also, like, really free. There's just a lot about them as an animal that, like. I mean, I think there's a lot of people in the world that animals are just so great. Like, animals in general are just so. They're like everyday magic to me. Like, they are so wonderful. They're amazing. I love them so much. And so, yeah, I think part of it is that too.

[Andy J. Pizza]

But I'm like, I have to do.

[Sarah Walsh]

Because I guess I could just go on and on.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You have the floor if you. If you want to keep going.

[Sarah Walsh]

But it's. I feel like words are just going to start coming out of my mouth and it's going to be, like, mushy. It's so good, though.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Like, go well, you can. I, like, keep. Do you have more.

[Sarah Walsh]

I think that's it for now.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Okay. All right. Okay. Well, we'll see.

[Sarah Walsh]

You know, I'm gonna take a break.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Change your mind. Take a little. Take a little break.

[Sarah Walsh]

You talk now.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Okay. I feel like I could do a whole series on animals. I just had a conversation with Julian Glander and we were talking a lot about ducks because he has pet ducks.

[Sarah Walsh]

Oh, my God.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And the first time I talked to him, we did like a pre. Talk and I was like, geeking out about animals and my wife had listened to it. And was like laughing at me. And she's like, you're. You're like a five year old kid, like animals, man. And you just.

[Sarah Walsh]

No, for real. Okay. I have to show you something and I don't want to make. I don't want to make too much noise.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Okay.

[Sarah Walsh]

But like, this might be a little bit before your time, but I got this. This was like pre Internet. It's called Illustrated Wildlife Treasury.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I don't think I've seen that. It looks great. I love the.

[Sarah Walsh]

You would. You would sign up for it and then every month you would get a pack of cards. Oh, look, of course I pull out a donkey. You would get a pack of cards with a picture and like stats on the animal and then like coloring Pa. Like you would get stuff. And it was like the coolest thing ever. To me. It doesn't look very cool.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Old school subscription box. Totally, totally, really cool. Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

And you got the collecting. You got the box that you would collect and. But I just, I loved it and like, I would watch, you know, National Geographic now I cannot watch any of that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It makes me too sad, too violent.

[Sarah Walsh]

I can't.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, there's a lot of bad. There's a lot of bad news around animals too. Just being.

[Sarah Walsh]

I can't handle it. Being a wild animal is so hard. Like, it's so hard. Like we think we have problems. I do feel that we think we have problems.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's so funny to hear you say that. Those two things, hearing you say it is so funny because it's externalizing feelings and thoughts that I have that I'm, you know, like one of. I. Okay. The only way I can explain what I mean is I heard a comedian on a podcast talking about how such a huge part of knowing what your material is is just being around other comics that are good at what they do. Because your best stuff is stuff that you're so close to that you can't even see. What's funny about it?

[Sarah Walsh]

Totally, totally, totally.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You saying how hard it is to be a wild animal. And you said it like you've done it. That right there. I think this all the time. I'm like looking at animals thinking, shit, God, your life is hard.

[Sarah Walsh]

What do you think about it?

[Andy J. Pizza]

I learned something about that.

[Sarah Walsh]

No, it's true. It's like, I totally. I'm so glad you appreciate that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Glad I don't have to be a squirrel today.

[Sarah Walsh]

No, I was just gonna say, like, did you hear that thing about how squirrels don't even find, like, they find like 30% of the nuts they bury or something. Something so disappointing.

[Andy J. Pizza]

A terrible stat. Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

Can you imagine, like, you're just literally spending all your time.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I mean, it's just kind of like throwing out 70% of your groceries, which, you know, basically.

[Sarah Walsh]

Okay, I'm dying. This is so funny.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's true. It's true.

[Sarah Walsh]

Oh, my God. It's like.

[Andy J. Pizza]

So, go ahead.

[Sarah Walsh]

No, nothing. I'm good.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Okay. So I was gonna say, about the horse thing, I. I was thinking about. You know, I'm so passionate about getting every creator writing because I think it is the.

[Sarah Walsh]

I'm sorry I'm crying, dude. I'm, like, trying to hold in my laughter. I just can't. I'm just thinking about these squirrels now, and I hate them so much sometimes because they're such jerks in our backyard. But now I feel so. I'm sorry. All right, hold on.

[Andy J. Pizza]

No, don't, please. You don't need to move on. Let's just enjoy it.

[Sarah Walsh]

I just. I had to let that little bit extra. It was like I was holding it in because I wanted to keep up, but I just. I just can't. I can't.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's hilarious. Don't you feel It's. So you saying that just made me realize how often I'm thinking that, which I know is not. I don't think comment. People should comment about this because I want to know, do other people think that?

[Sarah Walsh]

Oh, I know. No, no, they do.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Okay.

[Sarah Walsh]

I'm. I am. I am 100% certain that they do. I. I would put money on it because. Because I think a lot of creatives love animals and. And. And also just have so much empathy for, like, every living thing.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. So me too.

[Sarah Walsh]

I know, I know.

[Andy J. Pizza]

We're not even non living things. That's the thing. A lot. I know. I have the same thing.

[Sarah Walsh]

Okay. I'm like, now I'm going to worry about my drinking cup over here.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Exactly. Like, you're neglecting it. You haven't used it yet.

[Sarah Walsh]

Here, let me take a sip.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Now it's feeling better about its purpose. What was. There was one the other day where Sophie and I were dropping off something. I don't know if it was like, something at Goodwill or something. And I just caught her, like, grieving for it, and I was like, it's not. It's not alive. You don't have to do that. But I can feel like that, too, sometimes.

[Sarah Walsh]

We project. We project.

[Andy J. Pizza]

But that's. But that's the cool thing. I mean, that's the cool thing about that's. Exactly what I was going to say about the horse thing is the projecting element is where the symbolism comes from. That is for sure. That right there is the juicy part. And what I was, you know, getting into when I started getting serious again was this, was that I'm always encouraging creative people to write, myself included. It's really hard for me to get myself to write, but I. I write pretty frequently. But even so, when I really get into the groove of writing, I'm like, oh, I haven't done this in a long time. Why did I not get there? And one of the encouragements I have because I think a lot of creative people, if you don't consider yourself a writer, which is most creative, Some. So obviously there are writers. But then like musicians, actors. We're so in the abstraction, in the image and the feeling of it that the specificity. It's similar to what I think you're saying about like the label. Like, like, yeah, it feels difficult to do that.

[Sarah Walsh]

Yeah, it does. And you're. I think I so agree with what you're saying as far as like, I mean, calling. I was in a band for six years and I would never call myself a musician.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, I didn't know that.

[Sarah Walsh]

I wouldn't, I wouldn't and I still wouldn't. I learned like by myself and I don't read music. I would play by ear and whatever.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And that doesn't disqualify you. Again, you're going right back to that thing of I'm not a horse girl because I didn't own a horse.

[Sarah Walsh]

I know it's, it's stupid. I mean, I just. Maybe somebody else could say I was, but I just, you know, it's just not something I'm especially. I don't know how like musicians to me, like the people that could like drink like a bottle of vodka and then go up on the. Not that that's a good idea, but just like pure. Well, like there's people that are so. They don't, they don't forget notes. They just like. Like we saw V Vampire Weekend like a month ago and at the end of the. The encore they got back up on stage. And this is a band that I think people either love or hate.

[Andy J. Pizza]

But like I've like they're. I was a fan from the beginning. I haven't listened to their new album.

[Sarah Walsh]

But their new album is so good.

[Andy J. Pizza]

The Modern Vampires is like one of my all time favorite.

[Sarah Walsh]

Yes, it's a, it's a go to and like. Yeah, the first two and Then this one is such a, such a, kind of throwback to that, but, like, mixed with, like, new stuff.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

But anyway, long story short, like, he. They got back up on stage and, you know, this band is, like, perceived as, like, indie, kind of like cool guy, blah, blah. But if you really appreciate them, you know, that's not really who they are. Yeah, like fratty or whatever. But they got up and they were like, okay, we're taking requests from. Literally, anyone would raise their hand or, like, put their phone up. And they were doing Sweet Carol. They were doing all the annoying wedding songs and, like, joking and like, they were trying to just play the first couple bars of it and laughing. They would stop in the middle. And every time they did it, at the end they go, apologies to Stevie Wonder. Apologies to blah, blah, blah. And it was so great. But I, I, we, my husband and I were just like, just blown away by their musicianship and how good you have to be to just do that in front of a zillion people and, like, not even maybe know the song that much, but just kind of pick up on the essence of it and then just rip it out, like, right there in real time. So I guess that's why I'm like.

[Andy J. Pizza]

No, I'm not a musician, but I think, you know, just. I honestly feel like being a musician can mean so many different things. And there are people that are performing musicians, and then there are people that are recording musicians that I know. People that have written some of my favorite songs of all time that have a hard time learning their own songs to play in front of people.

[Sarah Walsh]

Like, oh, see, I'm the opposite. I feel like we, we always wrote our own. And yeah, it's like, I don't call myself a writer per se, but I wrote little pop songs with my friends and I wrote. I've been writing all my life. And I, I've written 2,500 Instagram posts. That makes me, I think I'm saying that number just because I, it was something I said to myself to go, will you shut up about this imposter syndrome. Like, you've written a lot of stuff over the years, including that which can be maybe valued or not valued by other people, but it was my time and it was my, my sincere thoughts, so I had to put it in there for my own personal resume to kind of boost myself up to be like, you can do this, you know, like, you've been doing it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And I think that there's something. I think we could have a looser relationship with the Labels and the packaging. Because I think the artists that do really well, if you think about. I was, you know, just to take Vampire Weekend, for example. They. When they. I think a lot about the mismatch thing, like, so a lot of pop or like mainstream stuff, the packaging and the essence of it are the same. So it's like what you see is what you get. There's a lot of alternative stuff is like, what you see is the opposite of what you're going to get. And so like, I. My example, I always say, is the Cure, but the Cure is like. Sounds like it's dancing, but it's actually really sad. Or Flaming Lips sounds like drug music. He didn't do drugs like most of his life and was almost anti drugs and religion and so. But that's interesting. And the same goes for Vampire Weekend where they're doing this like, oh, we're like frat guys. But there's a. They're doing. The label is. They're doing it for a different reason and they're using the symbolism of it to say something, you know.

[Sarah Walsh]

Yes.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

Yes. And so anyway, it's like, I guess prep school. I don't know. I. I feel like. Well, yeah, when I listen to their music, they're influenced by so many different genres and. And then I learned like a weird fact, fun fact. The Ezra guy, the lead singer.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

He's like part. They're not married, but Rashida Jones is. Boo. I'm like, what? I'm like, that's cool.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

Pretty wild. I love learning weird. I had, you know, just like brag.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I had Rostam on the show. He was one of the only musicians I remember that I was like one of the coolest things ever happened to me.

[Sarah Walsh]

Oh, yeah, that's right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

So anyway, so I am a fan. Big fan. But. Oh, yeah, I. The thing that I would. The thing I've been trying to tell you and I can't get it out is the. The horses. What I was going to say was that just blabbed in different directions. And I was going to say that when I encourage, you know, people that don't see them, creatives that don't see them, are intimidated by. Intimidated by writing is start with the symbols and then trust yourself that there is meaning behind that and that as you make it, you find it. And it seems like you had a lot of realizations of like, what are horses about for you.

[Sarah Walsh]

Yeah. I mean, it kind of doing this. I can't even say how cathartic it was about just like healing you know, you're. We're. We're all basically kids still. We're the same people inside that we were. We have. I. Yeah, we're not. No, I don't want to say the same. We have all of those versions inside of us. Us at all times. I feel like, true, but like. Yeah, I just learned a lot about myself and just. Okay, well, what. What is it about these creatures that has just compelled me all these years and sort of kept this little flicker going in me, this little spark that made me feel like when I was looking at them, thinking about them, drawing them, that I felt like myself.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

And the writing thing, I just want to say one quick thing about, like, Linda Berry and Anne Lamott, like Bird by Bird and Linda Berry, like, making comics, those two books. I can't say enough about how both of these artists talk about that. It's just our human right as people, like, as human beings to write and make pictures. And that. That should not be reserved for the elite or the special or the create. Like, I think everyone is creative. I honestly do. I believe that with. With every fiber of my being. And that it's just our right to do that and express ourselves. Whether we're doing it just for ourselves or make, you know, as a living, whatever. It's like a healthy part of being a human being. And so that really just kind of gave me permission to. Well, I'm just exercising my right as a human being. Like, I'm. I'm a cave woman right now and I'm making marks on the wall. I'm drawing my pictures and I'm just very, you know, I had to strip it down that. To that really baseline. Like, I'm doing this and it's like, it's like I'm doing this because people have been doing this for as long as we've existed. So it's okay. I can do it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

And that really, really, really helped me.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, I love that thing. And that's exactly what I needed to hear when I first started doing anything related to writing was trust that there. It's not random. The things that you're drawn to, the things that light you up. There is. It's speaking. If it feel. If you're feeling it viscerally, it's because it's speaking a language that is. That's going beyond words. It's not because you couldn't put words to it. You can. That's the writing. You will be able to put words to it, but it'll be work. But there's so much there will be. It's that, you know, a picture's worth a thousand words. Whatever it is. It's. Find those images. Find the. It's like the archetype thing of a horse. There was something about it that was supercharged for you. If, like, you talking about looking at horses and being like, man, yeah, like, that's so funny. Yeah, that's. Look at me go. Like, it's so good.

[Sarah Walsh]

Look at my mane.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And it's so honest. Like, I. It really, like, inspires me to think about it because I'm like, well, what. And I. I did. And that was the. The cta, the call to adventure, the thing to do something with. The. The conversation we're having. The one I came up with, other than like, what would your past self be disappointed in? But the. But the other one was, what were the archetypes from childhood that you obsessed over? And I. And I wanted to note that it took me a minute to think about this to kind of for anything to come up, and then a few things were coming up. Two for me were superheroes. I was obsessed with superheroes, obsessed with Marvel, and also I was really obsessed with. I. I wish I would have kept a little bit more. I've still seen a lot of Marvel, but I wish I would have kept some of that passion because a bunch of my favorite ones were turned into movies that nobody cared about when I was a kid. Like, so Deadpool and Black Panther, and those two in particular, I was like. I didn't know much about them. I just had, like, a card with them and, like a. Like a toy. I had one Deadpool toy, and I was like, these guys. Wait.

[Sarah Walsh]

They're the B side of superheroes? You know what I mean?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Very much so, yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

They're not like. It's not. They're a little more nuanced nuance. You know, they like to say in every industry, it doesn't. It doesn't sell, whatever. But I do think people are a little. Consumers are a little more sophisticated than people like to give them credit for. And. And. And, you know, I want to ask you so many questions, like, what. What. What it was about superheroes that, like. Because there's so many different things about a thing, and it's like, what aspects was it, like, that they were saving people? Was it the outfits? Did you just want to wear spandex, Andy?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Honestly, the more.

[Sarah Walsh]

The more colors that they looked.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I like Spider Man, Deadpool, all the one in Black Panther. What I liked about them was that they were so, like, Cool, Slick. There was no, like, thrills. Like, I just, like. I don't know, just badass and then. But I. As I was thinking about this, I thought it's probably something about the neurotypical, neurodivergent thing. Totally. I'm weird, and maybe it's a superpower. Maybe it's a good thing that I'm a weirdo and I go to the school for mutants. Like, that's probably what I was thinking. Like that. Like, what, I need to go to that school. And then the other one is basically the same that came up later because I forgot about it, which is so. That's what's so good about this. The same thing happened to me. Like, when you are. As you started pulling that thread, you're like, oh, that was like, a thing. It was there, like, aliens was another one. Like the 90s aliens. I had, like, a sticker collection of these 90s alien stickers that I got every time I went to Pizza Hut. And there was this, like, certain.

[Sarah Walsh]

We were talking about Pizza Hut the other day. It's gone.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It was legendary.

[Sarah Walsh]

It's, like, not a thing anymore.

[Andy J. Pizza]

But aliens are the same aliens.

[Sarah Walsh]

I mean, it's the restaurants gone, not the actual. It's still around, but. So when you say 90s. When you say 90s aliens, do you mean like the movie Alien or just like 90s? I mean, like, aliens in general. Like any alien that was put out.

[Andy J. Pizza]

In the 90s, people that are, like, listening to it on the podcast. I don't know if the video ever see the light of day, but that alien. Oh, the green alien head.

[Sarah Walsh]

The Roswell.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, like that.

[Sarah Walsh]

Like.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Like the. And, yeah, like the images around that. And again, neurodivergent. Like, that's a funny thing. And I used to say I thought my parents were aliens. My dad and my stepmom.

[Sarah Walsh]

That's hilarious. There's a kid's book. There's a kid's book right there.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You know what I thought? I really thought this. I didn't. I didn't think this, but I was like, I'm not going to rule out the possibility because it's not impossible. I thought they have a device where when I get out of bed, there's just like an. They have super technology where they can just instantly transform back while they're watching tv, so I'll never see him. But. But I. I thought that. The funny part about that is that's a very common. Not that exact version, but that feeling of being an alien is a very common thing in Autism and ADHD and really urgent people.

[Sarah Walsh]

Because I literally feel like an alien.

[Andy J. Pizza]

People say.

[Sarah Walsh]

I say that when I go pick up my kid from school. I go, here I go. I'm putting on my human suit. I'm gonna go be a mom and pick up my kid and go, hello. And I literally feel outside of my body.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Like, I'm like, yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

And it makes me want to do something weird just to, like, get it out. Like, yeah, I'm a fucking weirdo. I'm picking up my kid.

[Andy J. Pizza]

But, like, I know this looks normal, but I'm telling you, I would. Yeah, I did my.

[Sarah Walsh]

Oh, wait, my. My skin's flapping off. Oh, there's green. Let me cover.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Oh, yes.

[Sarah Walsh]

Did you ever watch. Did you remember that show V?

[Andy J. Pizza]

It sounded familiar. What is that? I can't remember.

[Sarah Walsh]

Oh, my God. It was a. It was a show about aliens, and I loved it. And it was like. It was like aliens were invading the Earth. The theme song was so dope, too. It was like, no, wait, that's Sex File. Never Am I. That's X Files. Wrong alien show. But, like, they were invading the Earth. But they. They would, like, penetrating Earth in, like, a very, like, sneaky way. And some of them would have, like, human suits, and then it would start, like, flapping off. And like, they were snake. They were like, snake people.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I love snakes, too, by the way. That was a huge.

[Sarah Walsh]

I got a sense I gotta find this and I'll. I'll find the trailer and send it to you.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Because I don't think I know that. The last thing I want to tell you was my favorite part of the book or the zine, by the way. My first kids book started as zine, too. And I think zines are the fricking key to. I cannot unlock your creativity.

[Sarah Walsh]

I honestly cannot, like, say it enough. Like, I completely agree with that. And, like, I just feel like they're kind of medium that. I think if you're in the commercial art industry, you're sort of conditioned to make this, like, product. But as a creative person, it kind of goes against that. And if you're really wanting to hone, like, writing and illustrating or just, like, exploring an idea that doesn't live in, like, one moment. I can't. I just can't say enough about them. They've just been such a game changer for me. I collect them. I. I tell people about them that don't know about them. I. I was, like, a fan girl of them for a long time, and I thought. I sort of fell Outside of it. Like, oh, I'm not. I'm not cool enough to make a zine. And I also just don't know what I would say. Like, I just didn't have that part of my creative brain developed yet. And so I was just, like, a fan. I think I bought a book. It was like, Todd, Mark Todd, and, like, Esther Pearl Watson had the zine called Unlovable. And then Mark Todd had this book. What you mean, what's a zine? And I was like, someday I'll make my own.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I don't think.

[Sarah Walsh]

And then I would just, like, buy it. And then I would just buy them. And then. Yeah, I was like, a couple years ago, I was like, girl, you love zines. You want to write and illustrate? You need to. This is the key.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes.

[Sarah Walsh]

And I think I remember Rebecca Green. Like, I didn't know that your book was a zine first. I didn't know that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Well, it's a different book, but it was the first one that I ever. It unlocked writing for me, but go ahead.

[Sarah Walsh]

Yeah, no, that's exactly just Rebecca Green. Oh, how to Make Friends with a Ghost. I think that was a zine initially.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

It just. It, like kind of a light bulb went off, and I was like, just do that. If you do that, like, things are going to happen.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I don't know what.

[Sarah Walsh]

What's going to happen, but something's going to happen if you just make your own. Just make it and get your ideas out there.

[Andy J. Pizza]

To me, that is the key. I just did a thing on a past episode where the call to adventure was about, like, quit pitching stuff. Like, for me, if I'm making a pitch, what I'm making is a pitch. I'm not making a book. I'm not making a good book idea. I'm thinking about what's a good pitch.

[Sarah Walsh]

And so I. And you're selling.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You're selling and you're selling about them. And that's. That's why I hate it. All these pitches didn't work. And I thought, if I make it a zine, then I'm actually making the thing that I want to make. Now I'm in the energy of the real thing. And it just. Yeah, it's. It's really.

[Sarah Walsh]

Take us to church. Take us to church. Like, it just like, that is. That is exactly why I was like, I'm not pitching this. I'm. I don't want to have this be a half thing. And it's also totally what you just said. Whenever I've tried to pitch Things. It just messes me up. And not that there are. There are a lot of creative people that are so good at walking that line and pitching, and it becomes a thing. And I just don't know if that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's.

[Sarah Walsh]

I haven't acquired that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You can also pitch after the fact. You can pitch later. That's the other thing is.

[Sarah Walsh]

That's the thing. Yeah, Just make it. Make it without the pressure of pitching and see how that feels. Because I honestly was like, well, I would like to make a book of this, but let me make the zine first and see if I enjoyed even making the zine, and then I can go from there, because, again, I think we like to glamorize and, like, put things on a pedestal. Like, I want to write an illustrated children's book, or I want to do this and do that, and then we. Actually, that is one bit of unsolicited advice right now. As someone who's been making, you know, art for a living for over 20 years, it sounds. I feel crazy saying that out of my mouth. But, like, before you put something on a pedestal, like, just do it first and make sure you even, like, like, doing.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Doing it.

[Sarah Walsh]

Like, just do the thing.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I heard Jack Black on a podcast say this, and I'm sure maybe I've heard this somewhere else. Yeah, he's a major hero of mine, but I love him. The way he said it was so perfect that I thought, this is a thing that I want to remember for the rest of my life and embody. And it was what you just said, which is. He said, don't think about what you want to be. So don't think about, I want to be an actor. I want to be a children's bookmaker. I want to be this, that, and that other. Think about what you want to actually do.

[Sarah Walsh]

Yeah. How does that work?

[Andy J. Pizza]

What do you want to do? And then do that. And that's what the zine unlocks is do it. You want to tell stories for kids, do it. You can do it. There's nothing stopping you from doing that.

[Sarah Walsh]

There really isn't. Like, I just listened to us that Working it out with Mike Birbilia, my favorite show.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I listen. Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

Did you listen to the Stephen Merchant one?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yep.

[Sarah Walsh]

When he. And I feel like when I say this, it's going to sound mean, but he. At the end, he was like. Because he just has, like, a. Like a musicality to his voice, and I'm like, nasally. Just do it. Just fucking do it. But, like, he. He was like, there's no. He said, I know people work all day, and it's really hard. It's hard to squeeze in things, but if you really want to do something, you will find a way, and you have to stop using excuses.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

He was like, just don't just do it. And again, see, it sounded so mean. But I. I thought about that, and I was like, well, that's. That is so true. But why can't so many of us figure that out?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

Like, why? And I. I thought about it, and I think, what something I was able to finally do. I was able to do this zine finally, because I realized the problem for me was like, I want to do too many things. And you talk about this a lot on your podcast, like, Honoring Seasons.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

For me, it's like, I want to do a lot of different things, and I have this list, but I thought about it, and I was like, okay. I think for me, what helped is, like, I want to be respectful of all the things I want to do, and I want to pick the thing I want to do the most, and I want to respect it and honor it. And if I'm talking at a party and I'm like, I want to do this, but I can't, and I'm saying it over and over again. After a certain point, I don't even want to hear myself saying it. It feels disrespectful, and it sucks. And I. I feel like I want to respect. If I love this thing as much as I say I do, then respect it and honor it and know your limitations and know you can't learn this, this, and this at the same time. You have to take this one thing, and you have to take a risk and spend time on that one thing, and you have to invest in it, and that's respect. And so for me, that got me to. There's no excuse. But there is an excuse. If you don't understand what's getting in your way and understand that you' for me, it was like, I need to. I need to be more respectful. That helped me. My mental cue of, like, that triggered me. I was like, oh, I don't. I don't like being disrespectful to anything. And so for me, I was like, oh, I am. By doing this over and over again and being stuck in this, I am not. I'm not respecting this thing that I say I love so much, this thing that I want to do. So I just said the same thing three different ways, like, over and over again. Just now but you know what I.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Mean, that's my whole podcast.

[Sarah Walsh]

I think I just hear myself saying it and I'm just like, yes, keep doing that. Don't.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's good, though. Yeah. I like the angles because I think it helps it unlock and make sense because sometimes those. Those things that really do unlock something, it's hard to get at. What. What is it that. Yeah, but I, I totally. I totally.

[Sarah Walsh]

The excuses are. They're excuses are just sort of the covering of what is underneath that's getting in the way. You know what I mean? Does that make sense?

[Andy J. Pizza]

100%. Yeah. It's a set. Yeah. You have to get past that. The. Yeah. The conscious level to the subconscious level of, like, what's actually going on there. But the, you know, the thing that you talked about with Seasons, that's. There's a huge problem for me always. So I have figured it out momentarily. It's one of the reasons I talk about it on the show is because sometimes I've managed to figure it out, but it's an. It's a lifelong problem. And the way I used to think about getting over it was I used to think, okay, I've got all of these. All this creative food to cook. I want to make all of these dishes. Which am I going to put in the frying pan and which am I going to throw in the trash? Those are the two options. It's the only options. And I. The metaphor that helped me figure it out was, no, some are going to go on the back burner, some are going to go in the crock pot. And. But the front burner, I can only. There's only one front burner.

[Sarah Walsh]

I love that metaphor so much.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And it really helps me. And it also helped me to understand learning tons about adhd, learning that there's an object permanence thing issue. So, like, out of sight, out of mind. So I know I have it that there's a thing of. There's only two times. There's. There's only now or never. That's it. There's only now or never. So if I'm not doing all of these things now, I'm never doing any of them. And I know it's true. It helps.

[Sarah Walsh]

It's how. It's how. Yeah. I mean, God, I was tested for it. They said I didn't have it, but they were like, on paper or talking with you, you have it. But, like, I think I'm just, like, high. Like, I'm just used to functioning high masking.

[Andy J. Pizza]

They. One of the Things they say about it is both. All neurodivergences. The further you go in your life, the harder it is to test for it. Because you add app. You have all you adaptations.

[Sarah Walsh]

Yeah, I do.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

Everything. Everything. Everything you've said and you. You told me.

[Andy J. Pizza]

We've talked about it.

[Sarah Walsh]

Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You're like, I don't go around telling people that. You're one of the only people I've said. Have you ever thought about that? Because you do have the. A lot of the ADHD energy.

[Sarah Walsh]

It made me feel better. Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's not appropriate.

[Sarah Walsh]

Sorry.

[Andy J. Pizza]

People shouldn't do that. So I'm sorry.

[Sarah Walsh]

I don't want to derail. No, no, no. I. It. You're. We're friends and you were like, very respectful about it, and it wasn't, you know, but. And I feel like I'm derailing. I'm. I am hearing what you're saying, but you know what? See, I have adhd. I'm sorry.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's part of the theme.

[Sarah Walsh]

No, but I.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Go ahead, go ahead. I was just gonna say that. Oh, my God. I was just gonna say that. I wanted to make sure I said this. That my favorite part of the zine and it's the. So tons of really funny things. I love the whole thing with the past, you, current you. All of that was very powerful. It also made me think, like, oh, man, there's like, cinematic things that you can do on a page that I never let myself do. But these are the ways I think, like, I. I feel like the stories I like and the ones that kind of. It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. We don't have time for that. I'm gonna say this.

[Sarah Walsh]

Oh, you can't say that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I was gonna say, like, I, you know, I think a lot of the things that I. The kind of things I want to do are like. Things like that happen in, like, Bluey is a good example. I don't know if your kid's probably too old.

[Sarah Walsh]

I need to see this show because everyone keeps talking about it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's amazing. It's great. And it's. It's kind of like for a long time in picture books, I was like, well, I can't tell the stories I want to tell because people don't tell these kind of stories in picture books. And then Bluey did that basically in. In kids media when I was like, oh, I can do it. I just have to figure out how you were doing this cinematic thing in the Zen.

[Sarah Walsh]

I don't know what you're talking about what page?

[Andy J. Pizza]

No, just. No, no, I'm going to tell you a specific page, but the, the part where she, your 10 year old self builds this time machine, goes to see future you. Everything about the scenes and it's also silent. It just feels like I did that in a movie.

[Sarah Walsh]

I did that because I am a movie nerd. I'm bad at remembering directors and I'm not an asshole film lover actually. Blah, blah, blah. But I really appreciate the medium, you know, like tv, really well done TV shows. Like my partner and I watch a lot of TV and Yeah, I just, I love the parts in a movie. Now I understand what you're saying.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

The parts where it felt like dialogue was going to be take away from the feeling that I wanted people to feel.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

And I don't. It was weird. It was like right away I knew that was what I wanted to do because I started getting into the dialogue and I was like, ugh, I don't like the way this is. And that was the other thing. I'm like, I was really proud of myself. I feel like I've grown as like a storyteller because I'm knowing now like, oh my God, like I have grown. I've learned because right away I wanted to do that. But I don't think like two years ago I would have not even known how to like deal with that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And I recognize that feeling like that that thing of the more stuff I make in a certain direction, the more second nature it becomes.

[Sarah Walsh]

Yeah, it was like, oh, I can't have any. I don't want any dialogue in this because I really want it to go silent and just you to read the body language and know that they met. But you don't really, don't necessarily need to know. I wanted there to be mystery because when you get into the specifics it just takes out the magic of the moment.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

So yeah, that was, that was kind of fun to do and I'm so glad that you picked up on that. That's so great. Thank you.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Horse Girl could be a movie I like. I think there's something there. I think there's something there, but that. So I love that and I. That was really inspiring me. But my favorite thing in the, in the zine though was something that at first I couldn't even put my finger on. It's one of those things where you think about, you start. It's. That's why I like analysis of your own work and others because you have to go from the visceral Thing, just, like, with the horses. Go from the visceral thing, then, like, pull at it till you, like, oh, now there's, like, meat to it. Like, I get like this.

[Sarah Walsh]

Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And so as I was thinking about, like, what do I want to. Like, what do I want to mention? And I thought, the thing I think about over and over is there's a page that is so funny and embarrassing and vulnerable, and it. And I feel it. And it's when the kids are pretending to be your past. You is pretending to be a horse.

[Sarah Walsh]

Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I'm just like, I can't. It's so, like, you could easily scroll past that and not really just not think about it, like, or not pick up on it, but there's something about you. And I was a. I pretended. I think I told you this. I. I played pretend way later than what is normal? Like, I'm telling you. And then even I pretended in my head all the way. This. I'll just defend myself all the way to college, only to get myself to sleep. So at night, I would go to sleep, and I was like, I can't sleep. And I'd be like, all right, I'm going to come up with this whole thing. And I was just basically pretending, like, so. But I pretend.

[Sarah Walsh]

And I had a younger brother inside. I think the inside of your brain should be a movie. How about that?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Oh, man. You know what? Okay. I know this is. Man, we're not doing a good job of staying on track, but. And I. That's fine. But everything everywhere, all at once. When I watched that, I thought. I told Sophie. I was like. And I didn't know he was adhd. One of the guys was adhd. I didn't know that, but I said, this is what it feels like. This is what it feels like. I literally feel like this. Where I. There's enough. There's a lyric. This. I'm doing a terror. This is. This is heightened adhd. Because as soon as we start, like, talking about it, it starts to, like, I'm out of control with it.

[Sarah Walsh]

Oh, I know. Are we both having a manic episode?

[Andy J. Pizza]

I think so. It happens. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And I.

[Sarah Walsh]

Okay, it's okay. Let's breathe.

[Andy J. Pizza]

But that thing of, like, I live a lot through the lens of, like, which am I in the best timeline? Like, am I in the best version of myself? Like, I think about that is kind of a thing that I, like, live all the time. And it's a very. It's a weight.

[Sarah Walsh]

I. You know what? I feel that Too. But I never really verbalized it like that. But I feel like I'm a lot of time living in like the troll timeline, the troll version of my timeline. Like just grunting through shit, you know what I mean? Like, and I don't want to be, I want to be in the unicorn timeline. But I, and I, and I check myself. I'm like, you are not, you're. You're giving off troll energy like so hard right now. And you need to like, like art troll. Like greasy art troll. I don't remember when I washed my hair and I got a lot of, a lot to do and I feel that a lot. And I, and it feels, it doesn't feel very kind. I think honestly doesn't feel very like we're doing our best. Yeah, we're trying. And, and, and I think even in our worst version of our timeline selves, I think we're still probably a lot cooler and more fun and caring than other people in their best timeline.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I don't know.

[Sarah Walsh]

Yeah, I'm just throwing that out there. I mean, you're just a very warm. I just feel like even on a bad day you're still pretty great. So I, I wouldn't.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, same to you. But I wanted to say that. I want to say I love that page. It captured that and it really captures that thing of you're just starting to get self conscious about should I be pretending? And that's really sad.

[Sarah Walsh]

It's really, I know there's a lot of. Really 10 is like that age, right? It just, it feels like there's so many stories in it from a 10. That was the other thing I wanted to share really quick about writing. And just whatever, whoever's listening to this and they're trying to write or whatever, like we're trying that word I've. I've just heard the other day, like don't say you're trying. Just people who are writing, exploring their voice. I want to say that it's going to look so different for everyone and that what we perceive as writing just like forget about all that. Like fucking forget it. And what helped me so much was thinking about how my 10 year old would write. Like that helped me sort of get my voice. Like because I'm a grown, I'm like a 50 year old. I'm like older than middle age at this point. And I'm writing, but I'm like a weirdo little kid inside. But when it's coming out, it doesn't match. But helping me channel my 10 year old it just, just like smoothed out. I could relax. And if I was starting to write something that was like over complicated, I would be like, well, what would your 10 year old say? What would your, how would your 10 year old think of that? And it just helped. And whether it's accurate, like, oh, actually a 10 year old really doesn't think like that. But I'm like, well, this 10 year old does. So whatever, it works. It just really helped me. And so if you think about maybe some kind of device that you can channel that will get you to a creative place that feels more comfortable and less like strained or like you're trying too hard or, or you need to like temper a part of yourself to just kind of not get lost in the woods.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Sarah Walsh]

Does that make sense? Like, yeah, yeah. That helped though, a lot.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And that, that's a great, that's a great action to end on is like create from your 10 year old self. And I think it, there's the, it makes sense because I think the teenage years is kind of the hero's journey of leaving yourself. That's where you really start to feel like losing yourself. You're trying to be something else. You're trying to figure out how to be that. And I think that that's such a good prompt to get back into the timeless part of yourself, the part of you that maybe hasn't changed. Some of the changes are good, some of them are bad, whatever. But that part and creating from there, like, that's. I think that's really good for sure. Thanks.

[Sarah Walsh]

You're so good at this.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Hey, I, I'm just having a blast. And I hope you know I'm thinking. The only thing I'm thinking is, man, the editing on this thing, if I've just gone out of control.

[Sarah Walsh]

Sorry.

[Andy J. Pizza]

When I talk to somebody like you and we both have these, this energy I can get, it just riles me up and then it's out of control. But you know, I'm trying to get.

[Sarah Walsh]

Comfortable with it, you know, it's okay. I mean, I had a really great time. I always love talking with you and I just really appreciate you having me on. Thank you so much. And thank you. Yeah, I'm just really grateful. So.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Massive thanks to Sarah Walsh for spending so much time with me and inspiring me and making this incredible zine. Horse Girl. Go check it out. Sarah Walsh makes things dot com. She is also on Instagram at. Sarah Walsh makes things. Highly recommend going and following along with her work. It's gorgeous. It'll add some great stuff. To your feed as well as your heart and soul and mind. I'm back with a creative call to adventure. The bmt, the Big. The Big Meaty Taste. If you don't know an Italian BMT is a sandwich at Subway. A lot of people don't know that BMT stands for Big Meaty Taste. And I just thought that was appropriate for what we're going to talk about here at the end. Big Meaty Taste. How do you make your work have some meat? And that could be vegetarian meat, vegan meat. It could be an impossible meaty flavor that is in your creative work. But I am sold out on the idea that in order to make great creative work that resonates on deep levels enough to build a practice on, you have to make stuff that's not just fashionable or timely. You have to tap into the timelessness of archetypes and things that move you on a deeper level. And I think there's no better place to get started on that journey than going back to your childhood and finding what were the symbols that I was obsessed with? What were the things that I just couldn't stop thinking about? What were the stickers I collected? What were the cards I collected? Go back to that time and just start making a list on all of the symbols and archetypes that you can find. And if you have a hard time thinking about, like, what's an archetype? That sounds scary and weird. It is, but also, it's not. The way I think about archetypes is it's what people call a thing. You know when someone's like, oh, yeah, it's a thing. That's an archetype. Horse girls were a thing. Right? Like, superheroes are a thing. Aliens are a thing. Those were my two that came up, and I started to dive deeper into what possibly drew me in to these symbols. Because it wasn't just fashion. It wasn't just because they were timely. Like, these are things that, sure, they were of the time, but they spoke to me in a timeless way. They spoke to me in a deeper way where I nerded out on these things much more than my peers. Or maybe I just had a couple friends or one friend where we both were like, this thing we're freaking obsessed with. Right? And then I start thinking about that beyond the noun, but beyond the superhero. What is a superhero all about? It's about being different in a positive light. What's being an alien about being different in an extra extraordinary, extraterrestrial kind of way. Right. And I think it was speaking to the ways in which I felt different than everybody because of my neurodivergence. And so those are symbols that I think about and put in my work and inspire me as I go to make stuff. I think finding these personal archetypes and building your own personal symbolism and mythology is key. It's really, really hard to make art when you only think about the adjectives, when you only think about the style and the surface. But you need some big meaty taste to sink your teeth into, and so does your audience. They need nouns. And if you go look at your favorite artist, you can probably write down nouns. You can write down things that symbols that show up in their work over and over again, because those symbols are things we can see. They're things we can interact with. They're things that we could literally hold in our hands, and that helps us put our hands around the work in a more literal fashion and have more to go at. So think back to your childhood. See if you can find some big meaty taste to inject into your creative work. Each episode of Creative Pep Talk is designed to help you maintain a consistent creative practice. If you're trying to transform your creativity from an infrequent hobby into a real discipline, sign up to our [e-mail] so that you never miss an episode. Creative Pep Talk is part of the Podglomerate Network. You can learn [e-mail] Massive thanks to my team, Sophie Miller, for content editing and co writing, to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for editing and sound design, and thanks to all of you for listening. Until next time, stay pepped up. Hey y'all, one more quick thing. Earlier this year I rebuilt my website using Squarespace's new Fluid engine, and I was so pumped about how it turned out that I have been really thrilled to find as many ways to partner with them and tell you about what they can do and bring you discounts as possible. With social media going haywire, I think having a site that feels as unique as your creative work is essential to building trust with your target audience or your clients. I have had several clients point out how cohesive and fresh my site looks lately, and if you want to check that out and what I was able to do without any code, check out andyjpizza.com if you want to test it out. Go to squarespace.com peptalk to test it out yourself. And when you're ready to launch, use promo code pep talk for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks Squarespace for supporting the show and for supporting creative people.

[Sarah Walsh]

I did consider Barney a friend, and he's still a friend to this day.

[Andy J. Pizza]

The idea of Barney is something that I want to live up to.

[Sarah Walsh]

You know I love you, you love me. I call it the purple mantra.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Barney taught me how to be a man. Generation Barney, a podcast about the media we loved as kids and how it shapes us. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts.