Rebecca Green (6:25)

Yeah, we just moved this summer again, so now we live in upstate New York. Yeah.

Andy J. Pizza (6:30)

Yeah. So that's a big. And it seems like it's a big project, too.

Rebecca Green (6:33)

Yeah, it is. It's like a massive. Yeah, like, gutted renovation. I don't think my husband was, like, looking for that much energy to put into a house. And I. I wasn't either. But we just found this very quirky house. It was so hard to find houses here in the areas that we wanted to live. And we found this very random house, and it's. It's right in the middle of a little village where we can kind of walk everywhere. But I drive downtown to my studio, so it's. Yeah, it's a cute house. It just has required a tremendous amount of work, so that I think that has added to this year feeling so unstable because I don't really, like, have a home. You know, like, just maybe three weeks ago, we finally could cook for ourselves and, like, you know, finally got a stove. And so it's definitely no, like, small feat.

Andy J. Pizza (7:18)

It's very destabilizing. More so than you kind of guess it would be.

Rebecca Green (7:23)

Yeah. Yeah. And moving is in and of itself a bit. You know, it's a huge undertaking. We've moved so much. I feel like I'm. I'm so used to it, but I think this was like a whole other level of that, you know, just not really, like, having a space to land, but it's. It's good. I mean, I'm happy. I'm really. I'm happy. I'm happy we moved. It was a good, good thing for us. So.

Andy J. Pizza (7:44)

Yeah. And I was into. I. Yeah. Now you do a lot of. You write on your blog and you send it out as a newsletter as well. Yeah. And I read your most recent one, which was in December, and you're kind of talking about nestling into this home, and you mentioned Wintering by Catherine May, and you're kind of trying to get. Find your bearings in a new place. Is that kind of what it felt?

Rebecca Green (8:14)

Yeah.

Andy J. Pizza (8:14)

Yeah.

Rebecca Green (8:15)

Yeah. Yeah. 100. I just feel like I. I don't know. I've always just sort of, like, ran at full speed. And this was the. Maybe. Maybe because of everything that happened, maybe because, I mean, I. I do think that's because of what it was just sort of trying to get into this, like, I don't know, level like this back to neutral. And. And it felt like that is like the solution is to winter in and almost just, like, close the entire world out and just like, focus on, like, the tiniest things that I can and kind of keep everything going at, like, a very bare minimum. Her. Her next book is on my list because I feel like that after you get back to neutral, you kind of have to find the magic in the world again. So that is something I'm working towards. But it feels nice to just sort of like, have a base.

Andy J. Pizza (9:03)

Yeah. You know, so, yeah, I loved Enchantment was incredible. A great book for that. And I really. I think you were touching on this. I really appreciate you, when we spoke over email prior to this, mentioning being willing and wanting to maybe talk through some of how life circumstances and your personal life has impacted your creativity, because I think we take for granted that the creative journey is just going to be kind of this isolated thing that's up to the right, like growth and just doing its own thing.

Rebecca Green (9:43)

Yeah.

Andy J. Pizza (9:43)

That's disconnected from who you are or what the heck is going on, and that's just not really the case. And so is that what you were getting at in terms of.

Rebecca Green (9:52)

Yeah, for sure.

Andy J. Pizza (9:53)

What you've been through over the past few years? I don't know.

Rebecca Green (9:55)

Yeah. Yeah.

Andy J. Pizza (9:56)

If you still want to explore, I would.

Rebecca Green (9:59)

I would. Yeah, I would love to talk about it. When you first reached out, I thought, I don't know if I'm at a place where I can like, verbalize so many things, but. But I am just working through them right now. And one of those things that I'm working through is just my relationship to creativity after everything happened, feels like my whole being is like a new. A new person. So. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. So what. What happened was In October of 2023, we had a daughter and we lost her shortly after birth. And yeah, I think the. There's so many. There's so many sort of avenues to talk about surrounding that. Yeah. But one of the hardest parts for me was that, like, aside from maybe a little bit different than. Than loss, I mean, every loss is, you know, is huge in its own way. I think the hard part for me with this particular situation was that with a new baby, there's like so much buildup and there's so much anticipation, and everybody's life around you seems like it's about to change. And certainly my life felt like it was about to change. I felt so prepared. You know, your nursery is ready. I've read, like, so many books. I was like, this is going to change me as a person, becoming a mother. And, you know, watching my husband, like, it was just, you know, our whole world was about to. To be different, and it just, like, blindsided us complet. It was out of the blue. It was out of nowhere. It just happened. We don't. We really don't know why they couldn't tell us why I think humans are just fragile and babies are fragile, you know, And I think it is something that happens, but we don't really, like, talk about it happening because it just feels too. I don't really know if it's taboo or, or what, but I. So when it happened, I just, I could. I just, you know, I couldn't believe it. I was in shock and took me a really long time to. Well, I'm still on that path, you know, to kind of getting back to myself. And it's been interesting in the past year, right after that happened, for the, you know, first three months, I, like, well, it probably took a month. I couldn't get out of bed. And then I thought, well, this will not change anything. Like, I just feel miserable in this, you know, bed. I, you know, it's not going to bring her back. And so I started working on. I'm working on this book series I've been working on for like five years. And. And I, I do feel like in those first three or four months after everything happened, I just had this huge amount of like, energy and devotion and care, like, for her, you know, that I didn't have anywhere to put. Put it. And so I put it into my books and all of a sudden I, I. All the. It seemed like I was having problems. Like I wasn't sure exactly how the finals would be executed, and it was just. I was in flow. I could. I. I figured it out. I felt like, you know, the books are dedicated to her and I felt like, okay, I'm putting all my energy into. Into this, you know, for her. And. And then that sort of shifted into actually this summer. It was such a light feeling. It's hard to explain, but I almost felt like there are no rules in this life. And it almost felt free, like, okay, if that can happen, then, like, it's all, in a way, it's all made up this construct of whatever. And I just sort of felt like light, you know, like, okay, well, screw it. I mean, I'm here and that happened and I'm. I'm living. And then fall came, which was when she was born. And I think that just sort of like wrecked me all over again. So in the last couple of months, I'm working on the books and they're not coming to me easily. I'm having to fight for them. I'm having to sort of like, you know, feelings that used to feel like, right on the surface feel feelings. Like the source of where all my work came from was very. I. I was very sentimental. About life and celebrating it and those small things and I appreciated it and, and I just felt so deeply. And then in, you know, the last couple of months, I just think like that the, the, the source of like that depth of feeling is like, I don't have it. So it's been a year of like even it's not been all sad, it's not been all, obviously not been all happy. But it's, it's. I'm trying to like maintain a workflow and maintain like this level of, you know, dedication on this project.

Andy J. Pizza (14:52)

Yeah.

Rebecca Green (14:53)

But I do feel like I'm sort of all over the place, you know.

Andy J. Pizza (14:57)

Yeah. So, yeah, I, you know, I have not been through that. I can't imagine that, uh, I've had times where being a sensitive, creative person and that sensitivity that is so much about what makes you a creative person. And then if when you go through a depression or a trauma or a tragedy, you. I don't know if this is what's happening. But for me I find ways of distancing myself from that sensitivity because it just becomes too much. And then after that having these seasons of how do I safely tap into that or is it feels more risky now. So I can definitely on a, on a smaller level relate to that. But I want to say first of all, like massive thank you to sharing your this because I do think especially online when you're watching a creative journey of another person and you feel like this thing needs to just grow in a perpetual way. And it's really, I think there's an element to the online nature of it where it really disconnects from reality. And I know for myself and for so many other creatives, I mean, all creatives have lives.

Rebecca Green (16:32)

Yeah. We're alive, right?

Andy J. Pizza (16:33)

We're alive. And life comes with all kinds of different stuff. And that is the, that stuff is where the creative stuff comes from. But it's also, you know, I just, I'm really grateful for you just sharing like this bit of reality and how it impacted your, your, you know, derailed probably.

Rebecca Green (16:56)

Yeah.

Andy J. Pizza (16:57)

Everything you were focused on and what you thought was going to happen and all that because I think there's so many people. I get messages from people that have long term illness and just chronic things or things that come and go or family stuff or whatever. And yeah, there's just not, it doesn't feel like there's a ton of space online especially to acknowledge that, let alone share it.

Rebecca Green (17:21)

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's funny because it's not funny, but it is interesting. And it's something I've been thinking a lot about. It's when. And I think our, the timing of our careers is interesting too. Just when we started all, you know, social media started, so we're sort of growing with it. But it's. There was, from my perspective anyway, this desire to sort of build an identity online that was like a bit unshakable or, you know, like a bit concrete or, you know, you had to have yourself figured out enough to like put like show the world who you were. And yeah, it's like we sort of expect that people just stay, you know, singular in their practice, in their industry, in their life. And. And I think on the other side of that, I have, I mean, I have shared it a little bit. I haven't shared it a lot. Not because I don't want to talk about it, because I actually feel like it's very therapeutic to talk about it. And it's really. I, I don't talk about it in person a lot at all, especially now that we've moved. But it's a difficult thing online because talking about it, I feel like I never want people to think, I want sympathy, I. I want to just talk about it. But you know, online there's not like a lot of space for back and forth convers, conversation and if there is, I'm overwhelmed by that, you know, like, I don't know how to have those meaningful conversations. And so I just sort of like keep it, you know, I don't share a ton of it, even though it's like such a massive thing. And so I. One part, like you talked about a little bit earlier, one part of my practice has been to send out newsletters and I've done them for like four years every single month. I did. I do a ton of stuff on Patreon and do a blog post. And so a lot of that is like, you know, outward to the world. And I mean, part of that sort of like nestling was needing to just like be alone and not have anything to share, you know, Like, I just feel like I don't have a lot of energy and that's like a whole other side of being a creative. And it's such a balance between like your internal world, experiencing that, feeding it into creativity. But then like, yeah, how do you balance that outwardly with people that you don't know or people that you are close with or. It's just a lot, it's a lot that we're all, I feel maybe just navigating in ways on our Own. Because we're all, you know, I feel really solo, actually, in my career. Not like that. That's ideal. It's not, actually. But, yeah, there was just like, no instruction manuals for this, you know, especially when. When I went to school, there was no social media. And so anyway, it's.

Andy J. Pizza (20:17)

Yeah, it's an interesting element to. It is, you know, you, like you said, you want to build this stable thing. If you're making this a career, you want some stability in that. And unlike other businesses that you might have, this being a creative outlet, it's so deeply connected to who you are. You know, for the longest time in. In the podcast, in my illustrations, what. Whatever I was doing, I would be mining my experiences for filtering into creative work. And a lot of that has been really powerful and positive. But then there have been times in the past five years or so where things are too personal or I've learned, like, oh, the boundaries online, or I need bigger boundaries there because it's just not as safe as I thought it was in the creative community. Or it's like, this isn't. You know, it reminds me a little bit of Sufian Stevens album Carrie and Lowell. He was talking about how when he was making that about his mom, initially there wasn't, like, very much metaphor, and it was like, he was like, this isn't art. This is like real life. And I'm not. I'm not romanticizing this. And it's not. I don't think there's any right way, because I could go any. I've gone back and forth on the same experience with that. That's kind of what comes up for me. Like, yeah, we're learning how to be alive in this time, online in this time, and build a creative practice in this time. And it's all fresh and it's all new.

Rebecca Green (22:07)

Yeah, yeah. Sometimes, I mean, it's hard to know whether things are, like, too sacred to put, and then you find yourself sort of, like, wanting to use them.

Andy J. Pizza (22:19)

Yeah, in a way, yeah.

Rebecca Green (22:22)

Yeah, naturally. Because I feel like that's just what we do and that's why we have the jobs that we have. But then, yeah, if you're putting it out there, then it is like a. It is a thing for business. And it's a very bizarre.

Andy J. Pizza (22:33)

It's a weird. Yeah, it's a weird thing to balance. And I. But on the other hand, you talking about how you found all of this creative energy and this generative energy. I had a really similar thing with the project I did about my mom when I first started doing that, I was like, I. There's actual. It felt very like. Like there was another realm in which there was material, like a type of material that I had access to. And it was. It was the same material that was the pain and the grief. I could. It was almost. I kind of couldn't believe that. I felt like I was taking that same thing and I was doing something with it. It felt very concrete in a way that I would never have guessed. I don't know if that was that a good feeling. It was a great feeling.

Rebecca Green (23:32)

Okay.

Andy J. Pizza (23:33)

The great feeling.

Rebecca Green (23:34)

Okay.

Andy J. Pizza (23:34)

Yeah.

Rebecca Green (23:35)

Well, I mean, that. That series, I think, was so powerful and like, at that moment when you're sitting there with your mom and she's reading your book, I was just. Yeah, it's so powerful. And I just thought what. I mean, it's really brave to take that and put that out in the world. And so. And in talking about that, it's not really. It's the total opposite of taking something and making it work or business. Do you know what I mean? Like, I can't imagine you were like, this is a great business opportunity. You know, it's not. That's not what it is. You know, but it's just that that sharing was. Was. Yeah. So powerful.

Andy J. Pizza (24:18)

Thanks. And, yeah, but it reminds me of what you were talking about. And one of the things you mentioned to me beforehand was that as you went back to these things you've been working on for a long time, having these experiences that you've been through meant that you were a different person showing up to those.

Rebecca Green (24:39)

Yeah.

Andy J. Pizza (24:40)

Well, could you speak to that a little bit?

Rebecca Green (24:42)

Yeah. Yeah. I'm still trying to sort of like, wrap my brain around it, but. So I started the. The book that I'm working on in 2019, and it's been a huge ongoing project that I've worked on and devoted, like just hundreds of hours to. I'm so. I can't believe that I'm so devoted to this project. Like, I know I always just like, churn over things and get over them, but this one, I'm like, I just, I. I love it. It's going to be like the biggest project I ever do in my whole life. I just feel like, yeah, I don't know if I could ever devote so much energy to a single thing. It's a book series of four books, and there's two main characters, and it really stems from their dialogue and their. Their friendship and sort of this world building that I saw. But when it. When I first Kind of came up with them. The stories were like flooding, you know, like, they just came to me and, and you know, it's like when that happens, you just. You trust it. I also, like, don't trust it because I'm like, this is too easy, you know, like, this is too good. That's. That's just like, you know, and it felt like that's not serious to like, have a mouse and a bee having a conversation about, you know, apple pop high. This isn't serious work and. But I just couldn't stop thinking about them and drawing them. Like, I would wake up in the middle of the night and just like have to record and I would go for walks. And I think at. At the time I was living in Japan and I was really. I loved it. It was an incredible experience. I was also extremely lonely and very isolated. And that was like a deep pain for me who. I'm like a people person. And I think truly I. The. That they. I came up with them as like a. Is an extension of like what I wanted, you know, like a. A home and companionship. And so anyway, I have been developing them and they've ch. Kind of changed course and you know, I. I finally, in the last year or so, really nailed down what the books are and sort of put all the pieces together and it has been just sort of a. It's been a long haul, you know, craft. And I think that the stories sort of just have continued to come to me. Not like, with that much force, but now it's like work. Now I'm like, really working. Yeah. Trying to figure out all the pieces and lots of trial and error and. Yeah, right after we lost Sovie, like I said, I just felt like such a rush of energy towards it. And now it's. It's so hard for me. I don't. I don't know if like, if I can even really explain it, but in my head, it's just. Has always been so easy for me when I'm inspired to sort of like go internally and see like an. A video, like or a movie or a scene or something play out, you know, like, I can see the lighting, I can see these characters talking to each other and hear like I just said, I sense it, you know, And I've always like, oh, that's easy, you know, because it just feels natural. And now I can't access that. And now I'm like, what a gift that was. Didn't know it, but I. I was just sitting in. In my studio in the last couple Weeks. And honestly, just, you know, I'll just sit here and, like, just try to stare at the wall and think, like, just try to feel that deeply. Try to conjure these images yesterday. Or, like, for this last week, I'm trying to finish one of the stories on this book that's. The book is due, like, at the end of the month. And so I'm trying to come up with these stories, and I just have. I just feel like it's. I'm, Like, I'm dragging myself through mud to understand, like, the emotions of these characters, to understand stories, to understand the world, to just, like, connect that deeply with them again. And it's so difficult. But I will say in the last day or two, even I. I feel like it's been a lot of work, but I know it's there. Like, I know I'm. I'm still that person. Like, I could. I still have the same brain. I still could bring it back. And I've been just, like, trying to force myself to think in that way. And I came up with this story, and I. I was at home at night and I was doing the dishes, and it was like, 9:30 and was like, yeah, okay, I think. I think that's the story. And I went and I wrote it down, and I was so excited to come to the studio yesterday. I sat in here and I typed it all out. I was like, I think I can still get it. Like, I think I can still access this world.

Andy J. Pizza (29:17)

Yeah.

Rebecca Green (29:17)

And in a way, I think that because the books are all about celebration. Like, the. The stories aren't, like, plot heavy at all. They're very surface, but they're about, like, the relationship between these characters, the other characters that are in their little neighborhood, but basically they're just. They're just having parties and they're just, like, celebrating the seasons. It's. They're about food. There's, like, homes, there's recipes. They're very light. But they also have this, like, humor and sadness that feels deep to me, and hopefully that resonates when people read them. But in a way, I do feel like working. Like, forcing myself to connect with them is almost like re. Teaching myself in the moment to love those things again, because I have to. So I think it almost, in a way, like, comes full circle, and here they are to, like, save me again in some wild way, you know, Feels like a gift. Yeah. We're so done with New Year. New you this year. It's more you on Bumble, more of you shamelessly sending playlists, especially that one filled with show tunes. More of you finding Geminis because you know you always like them. More of you dating with intention because you know what you want. And you know what? We love that for you, someone else will too. Be more you this year and find them on Bumble. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. During tax season, your personal info travels to a lot of places between payroll, your tax consultant, and the IRS. If your W2 gets exposed, that's just the ticket for identity thieves. That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Don't let identity thieves take you for a ride. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply.

Andy J. Pizza (31:28)

I have this image of creativity being like a slingshot, where there's a lot of things that make a slingshot work. But the most exciting, freeing part is when you let go of the thing that you're slingshotting. So there's this let go, and that's when the big thing happens. But it's. It. You can't say, well, it's about letting go because it's also about the pulling back and the tension and, you know, the. The muscular side of that. And I'm thinking back to when we talked in 2021, and you had gone through after making how to Make Friends with Ghost, and not in doing a lot of illustration of other people's stories and feeling like, well, I don't really know if I'll do that. I don't know. You know, you didn't feel like, oh, that was something that you could access again. Then this feels like, to me that there. I think the hardest part about creativity is trusting the. The stages in the process and knowing that, yeah, that was the stage at the beginning of that project where it's this flow and this. And you're capturing it and it's. There's magic and then there's just showing up and doing the work and just crafting it after the fact and then making sure you get it out into the world and finish it. And it's not as. It doesn't feel as magic, but that's the work. And I think there's a really strong relationship to that. And you also have to trust that, like, yeah, the magic part of the process will come again, too, for maybe a different project or, you know, whatever.

Rebecca Green (33:10)

Yeah, yeah. Or in. In little moments, too. Right. Like, you find them like when you. And it maybe isn't the same. Maybe it's not like a story, but it's like, oh, when you get that, like, expression. Right. You know, and it's like. Yeah, there's so many, like, tiny. Not even epiphanies, but, yeah, just, like, those moments of magic. I mean, that's what keeps us, like, making anyway.

Andy J. Pizza (33:29)

Yes.

Rebecca Green (33:29)

You know, there's got to be a little bit of joy in that. In that work part. But, yeah, it is just a tremendous amount of work, and you have to, like, love it. So I think if you can have those things come to you and harness them, and you've got. You know, there's enough in that that excites you that you sort of, like, have to keep that as you continue to work on it.

Andy J. Pizza (33:50)

Yeah.

Rebecca Green (33:51)

Because that work can be. It can be intense, you know, and then if you have, like, a life event, you know, like, I did it. It just is hard. Like, it throws you off, even. It throws you off of the work, you know, certainly it throws you off of that magic. But, like, it also just like, yeah, it's. It's. But it's worth it, right, to keep going and.

Andy J. Pizza (34:15)

Yeah, that sounded like a question, right, Andy?

Rebecca Green (34:20)

Isn't it worth it?

Andy J. Pizza (34:21)

I think so. Yeah. I do think so. You know, it's funny because, you know, the bigger projects, the few that I would consider, like, these are the bigger elements of my work. A lot of them, almost all of them, have a similar trajectory of a lot of buildup of, like, exploring and a lot of things that felt unrelated. Then, oh, this thing clicks. Then there's magic. Then there's. It's exciting. And, you know, it's feels like, oh, I've got it. It's right here. And then you realize that's the beginning of the project.

Rebecca Green (34:59)

You know? Yeah. Yeah.

Andy J. Pizza (35:01)

And so. Yeah. But I will say, you know, haven't you finished a lot of projects, you know, that. That it is. It is worth it. And that a lot of times, you know, like, whether it was invisible things or right side out, both those projects, the. The last. The after the middle of the marathon where the magic's gone, like that. The years after that, that both of them had several years, like, yeah, two or three years where it's like, the magic fire isn't right there, but I'm trusting it. And then once I got it to the end, it's like, oh, thank God I did that. Thank God that I just. It's almost like a. Like a stewarding of the magic that you felt and being like, no, it was there. I know there's Something there.

Rebecca Green (35:55)

Yeah.

Andy J. Pizza (35:56)

And I. And I have to honor that or something.

Rebecca Green (35:59)

Yeah, yeah. I mean that totally makes sense to me. And I. These projects you're talk. You're talking about and this one that I'm working on are such huge endeavors. They're years, you know, you have to have that sort of like dedication to them and trust in them enough, you know, to know that they're worth it.

Andy J. Pizza (36:21)

Yeah.

Rebecca Green (36:21)

And I think being able to pick up on those pieces is like what. I think it's a very useful tool for creative to be able to, you know, understand how special those sensibilities are. You know.

Andy J. Pizza (36:38)

Can you talk a little bit more about that specifically? Because when you said like pick up on those pieces or like, can you. I don't know if you could flesh that out a tiny bit. Just. I was curious. Yeah.

Rebecca Green (36:51)

Well, I think that there's a huge sense. There's a. There's a question that I get asked a lot certainly. And I'm sure you do too. Just like, well, who. How do you. How do you find your style? How do you find your voice? How do you find like who you are? And for me it's those internal like sensations whether. Yes. We could talk about like a story just coming to you and that's great and that's. But you can't like always conjure that.

Andy J. Pizza (37:17)

True.

Rebecca Green (37:18)

Yeah. But like outside of that, what just like delights you or sort of makes you feel super passionate on a day to day basis, you know, with things that surround you in your house or in nature or the people that you're around or the music or whatever. Like all this. And you talk about this a lot. Just that taste and I think being sensitive to those things. Like there are things that I feel sensitive to where actually give you an example.

Andy J. Pizza (37:51)

Yeah.

Rebecca Green (37:52)

And this is not to. I love my husband so much dog on him. But we have been fixing this house together and it's like we are speaking two different languages.

Andy J. Pizza (37:58)

Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Green (37:59)

Or I'm like, look at 10, 10 of these colors. You know, and I can just. He's like, they're all gray. Not really. But like, you know where he will listen to an album? Like he's super big into music. So he's like, did you hear the production there? And I'm like, I don't. I actually wasn't. The music went past me. So there are just these sensitivities that feel so natural to us that we just. I anyway think it's very easy to just bypass them. Well, everybody feels that way. And I don't think everybody feels that way about that specific thing that maybe you feel that way about. And when I started to sort of realize this, I actually was part. I'm part of the Art Brand Alliance. I don't know if you have heard of that or familiar with that. It's like a group of artists. It's like a network, but they have sort of internal, like, social hours, but then talks. And there was. There was a thing within it called the Creative Directors Club. And we did a lot of exercises on, like, building our own. Like, if we were the creative director of our world or our creativity, we spent a lot of time, like, doing visualization things, and we did experiences like. Or exercises like, if you were to plan an event, how would that feel specifically to you? And what would you do? And what scent would you have? And what would be the food and what would be the music and all that? Those things that you pick out that seem so easy to you. And then we would all share them, and someone would be like, I want to be on the beach, and I want to be drinking, like, pina coladas. And I'm like, I can't imagine anything. No, I love the beach, but you know what I mean? Like, that would not jazz me up. That would be vacation. That would be like, I'm not working right now. Yeah. So anyway, those are the. The little sensitivities, you know, and what.

Andy J. Pizza (39:50)

You know, last time we chatted, you were talking about the mouse and the bee living in a cider press.

Rebecca Green (39:58)

Yeah, they live in a cider press.

Andy J. Pizza (39:59)

And I was thinking, like, that's a great example of one of those. Because you said that offhand. And when I listened back to it, I was like, I would never think in a mill. Like, that would never occur to me because I don't. I don't even live in a world where cider presses exist. I'm not like, honestly.

Rebecca Green (40:20)

Oh, man, Andy.

Andy J. Pizza (40:23)

And then I love. Like, that's a great example, too, of your reaction to that was like, oh, how tragic you got.

Rebecca Green (40:31)

I'm also like, you live in Ohio, in the Midwest. Don't you guys have apple orchards?

Andy J. Pizza (40:35)

But still, it would never occur to me. And to you, it's like, you're just like, what? How are you talking about? They're so central to existence.

Rebecca Green (40:46)

You know that fully. Such an epiphany. When and when I started these, I drew so many regular houses that they lived in, I was like, man, this is not feel special to me. Like. And I was trying to put all these pieces together and I don't even remember what it was. I mean, I have drawn and like, dreamed about cider presses for a really long time. Owning them, having a cider party. I mean, it's just like, that's just kind of where I came from and what I love and that's what. And I think I was drawing one and then I was like, wait a minute, we could just put a door here.

Andy J. Pizza (41:16)

Yes.

Rebecca Green (41:17)

And then it was like. It actually took me a really, really, really long time. I felt like an architect to figure out exactly how that cider press turns into a house. How the, the, the press part would have to be up enough for it to be two floors, and then how I would put a wood stove in. And like, it was actually very exciting to put that together. But anyways, yes, it's a great example of that sensibility where, you know, it's central to the story, but actually not at all. It's just like such a fun detail.

Andy J. Pizza (41:49)

That'S, you know, I love this thing about. We're talking about the bigger projects in your, in your, in your path and your practice. And like, of course, if you're lucky, you have a lot of smaller projects that are more fun and they're not, you know, they're not as precious or whatever. But I do, I think if I was talking to myself at 22 before I'd ever trusted any of that sensitivity long enough to get into some of that meatier stuff. I think I would say first of all, like, trust it. Trust those weird, like, intense feelings that you have about things like do that, like, go that way. But also I would say, like, and when you do, the further you go into those, the richer creativity is going to feel like these bigger projects to me, I think I'm, I'm kind of even. It's not even about whether other people. If there's probably some of those projects that I feel this way about that aren't really quintessential to me or maybe weren't super successful or whatever. But they, the, the, the creative, the richness of the experience was deeper than I thought was possible when I started out. Because when I started out I was very much like, oh, I'm pumped about like, band posters and drawings and like, I love this scene and hand letter type and all that. And it was fun and it was cool and I was into it, but I, but it, but it was like the style and the, and trends and stuff like that. And I just didn't think, I think, I didn't realize like, that you talking about Building this house in your mind in a cider press is just. And watching how. How enjoyable that is to you because you're like. As you're saying it, you can see you're like, yeah. And then, like, I'd have to. Okay, how do we get it in the house? Well, the door's this size, like, just, like, so funny. But it's. But that's like. I didn't even know that existed when I started. I didn't know. Does that make sense?

Rebecca Green (44:01)

Yeah. I mean, I didn't either. Yeah, I didn't know that. And. And I think that's why. I mean, I feel like I don't really ever trust things that feel too good. And so for a long time, it felt too indulgent even to, like, work on that. Like, it just almost feels like, like I said, this isn't serious work, so I probably shouldn't, like, invest my time in it. It's so interesting. Well, I started off not in picture books, but a little bit in editorial, and that was so difficult for me. And then I got into picture books, and still those seem to be so difficult for me. And I loved doing them. But if I look back at every single picture book, it was a struggle. I tried so many different attempts for those. And now I look back and I'm like, it's just a totally different feeling than what I'm working on now, because it feels. Well, I get to make all the decisions, which I like. I mean, I have an editor and an art director, but, like. Yeah, I think. I didn't know. You know, maybe I. I do feel like part of the. I think building up and doing all those books for other people and working on projects that I didn't love early in my career has sort of built up the stamina, and I need that now to work on these books for so long, and I think that's a great part. And also, when I first started, I couldn't have. I did an interview once, and I literally told people, I don't have any stories. That's why I'm an illustrator. So I'm just going to do other people now. I'm like, this is wild. Like, I don't want to do anybody else's stories right now because I. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't know that was possible. I didn't know enough. I. I'm just like. Well, I'm just a nobody from this small town in the Midwest, and I don't. I'm not really, like, cool. And I still don't Consider myself like a book person. I don't know like how to come up with stories. They're not super plot heavy. And so yeah, I think. But you just gotta. Once you like get rid of all that I can. I don't know. I think it could be kind of simple.

Andy J. Pizza (46:01)

Yeah. And also I love what you're saying about like the snowbally effect of the journey of you sticking at it. I have the same exact experience of creative stamina for longer projects built up slowly over time. I'm able to still hard, but I'm able to do bigger things than I thought I would be able to ever. And it just happened slowly. And you also. You saying I don't have any stories, like just saying like you don't know what you have. That's the thing about this creative practice is as you go through it, if you stick at it, you will. You're going to find all these abilities and stories and things in you that you don't even know that you have. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

Rebecca Green (46:45)

No, no, I was just going to say. I totally agree.

Andy J. Pizza (46:47)

One thing I was going to ask you about was when you're talking about this moment where these characters were having these conversations and you were kind of talking about it, it sounded really trippy in a way that was awesome and interesting. And I'm just wonder as you maybe you could speak to that for a minute first because it's just really juicy and fascinating. But then also as you've worked with the material that came out of that, have you. Have you seen where some of that may be? Like when I was making really terrible music in college, a lot of times it was just like people were sending me this instrumental stuff, my friends and I was like just making vocals and weird stuff and it was all kind of like stream of consciousness. And almost always by the end of the project I was like, oh, I know what this is about. I thought it was literally random. Now I know what I was thinking about or what. And do you. I wonder if you talk a little bit about those conversations, what did it feel like? And then as you've worked on them a long time after that session and those seasons, have you started to figure out why these characters live in you? What do they. What do. I don't know. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about both those things.

Rebecca Green (48:12)

Yeah. So the. I think one thing for me is that with any project I'm doing, generally like the emotion of the character is that is the top for me that is like always kind of what I'm after. And I feel like these two characters, this bee and this mouse, are two sides of me for sure.

Andy J. Pizza (48:35)

Yeah.

Rebecca Green (48:35)

But they're also like, not necessarily those two sides, like have conversations, but maybe they do. But I really, I. I love like acting. I used to do theater, like really, really long time ago. And for me, when I'm doing a book or especially like thinking about these characters, it's so important for me to feel that emotion of them, you know? And so Moo is like, that's the bee. She's like super fiery, like super high energy, has all these ideas, but fickle. Like could be like mad and then happy immediately. And then the bee is just. Or then the mouse is. Her name is Henry. And she's so like calm and sort of like put together and kind of sees things from like above perspective. You know, she's just like a little bit more wise. And I feel like those are both. That's like really two sides of me. And when I'm seeing them, I'm thinking, I think I can feel a few things. One of them is humor with their situation, with their, their conversations. Because they're very. They're very humorous. Not like wild comedy, but they're humorous and like a sweet humor. Like the ghost book is like sweet humor, you know, and then there is this sort of like appreciation for life. Like they have such a small little. I mean, they live in a cycle press and they're. They're tiny, but they get snowing. And that's the biggest thing in the world to them. And it's just the stories are really simple. I think that for me, like you said, you know, you have all these sort of random pieces and then in the end you're like, oh, that's what that's about. I think that when I'm seeing them in the very beginning, when I, you know, like, I can sort of just sense these moments. Working towards the final has been a tremendous amount of cutting and editing. Like I literally started writing these things as like novels, but I'm like, children don't really read novels. And this probably isn't like the best material for like 30 year old or like, you know, like an older person. Although it's like me writing it.

Andy J. Pizza (50:50)

But yeah.

Rebecca Green (50:51)

So I had to cut down so much. Like I had to cut down even so much of their conversations. I had to just pare back. They're written in graphic novel forms. A whole other beast. Oh my God. It's just been so difficult, such a challenge. But I think what's interesting is that When I sensed them in the beginning and now I put them out on the paper and I cut all that down. What's left of it is still that seed. Like, it's still the. I guess, the relationship between them and their relationship with their, like, immediate world and them appreciating life, which probably is just how I've always operated, you know. So I think that is really what has always been important to me is it's like the emotional relationship between myself and others. And. Yeah. It. Yeah.

Andy J. Pizza (51:54)

What are we gonna say?

Rebecca Green (51:55)

I don't know. I was gonna say. Well, I don't know if. Yeah. Maybe, like, in the very, very, very end of it, I could come up with a different sort of reasoning. Maybe like a more clear, you know.

Andy J. Pizza (52:06)

No, it sounds reason, but I think. Great. The thing that I heard in it was a big part of how I think about creative work has been influenced by the internal family systems idea, which is this idea that you're made up of all these different parts of you, and it can be useful to personify these different parts and have, like, relationships with these parts. And I heard and, you know, a lot of my heroes, when I heard them talk about their work, like Charles Schultz talks about Peanuts, all these different characters being different parts of himself. But also the guy who plays Dave Go, who plays Gonzo, and he plays a bunch of other Muppets, talks about how each character is like a flaw, an exaggerated flaw of himself pushed to the extreme until it becomes lovable. And I thought that is such. And that's why I hear you talking about is this. You said two things about how you felt about these characters, which are these parts of you. One that you can see the humor in it, which feels like a level of emotional distance that is the observer. And being able to rise above your situation and kind of get a little. And not take yourself too seriously, be like, oh, it's funny. Like, watch my parts doing these things. And also you said, like, to appreciate their world and appreciate their dynamic. And that feels like a development of self love of, like, appreciating these aspects of yourself and being able to cherish them with this little bit of distance. And I think that's, like, super deep. Man, that's so cool.

Rebecca Green (53:59)

No, it's. It's so nice just talking, talking through it. And. And, yeah, having. I mean, I've been working on it for so long, and I am a, like, really reflective person, so I'm often thinking of these. But it's like, I've never. I've had few conversations about that. This aspect of it.

Andy J. Pizza (54:14)

Yeah.

Rebecca Green (54:14)

You know, and what that means. And I think it's super insightful to sort of see it from the outside and like you said, almost be a steward of the. These things that you're sort of like bringing into the world. And I, I do see myself as separate from it because. And that's how it feels when things come to you. I'm not a big. Like, I don't believe that there's a muse and there's an idea and it's going to come to you or go to somebody. Like I. But I think that something fired in my brain that could, you know, probably have only happened in this specific brain that I think, yeah, I now have like the responsibility of carrying it out. And I do feel like. I don't know. Yeah. I guess the creator, but not, you know.

Andy J. Pizza (55:01)

Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Green (55:02)

Like, I don't know. You're like, caretaker. I'm the caretaker.

Andy J. Pizza (55:06)

Yeah. I love that.

Rebecca Green (55:07)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy J. Pizza (55:09)

You know, the other thing I just want to hint at is you said a few times, like the emotional relationship and it not being super plot heavy. This is something that we touched on last time was this idea that illustrators are like non glamorous actors. And I find myself like a lot of times, my wife has pointed out, when I'm drawing, I'm making the face that I'm drawing. Right.

Rebecca Green (55:37)

Yeah.

Andy J. Pizza (55:37)

Weird. It's a. It's bizarre. Like you said, like you have to feel the feeling that you're putting on the page. It's very acting. And I did theater too. I think there's something very, like, there is something there. And I also just wanted to highlight that there's this. There's conversations around Alice Fraser, who's going to be on my show. She's a standup comic and she wrote a book about romance novels. And I heard her talking about this, but I've heard this conversation. Oh, I've heard it in the Heroine's Journey by Gail Carragher. She also talks. She writes a lot of like romance and like relational books and how these things have been like, seen as less than, than action movies or like, they're very, they're similar things. And also there's a symbolic nature to the things that are going on. And I guess I'm just getting at that. Like the illustration and the intuitive side and the relational emotional side is so rich and so, so much about what kids react to in the work and what adults react to in the work. And yet I think because it, it doesn't register with the there's no translation to the logic element of the brain. You can't literally literalize it that we sometimes belittle it or demean it when it's really just such a powerful thing. You know, hearing you work this stuff out and relate to it is just a really. It just feels really rich.

Rebecca Green (57:26)

Yeah, I think it's. It just. It sounds similar to those things that come so easily to us. And, you know, we value those things that, that maybe we make a little bit more challenging. And so. And I think we all, I mean, we're. We're human. So like, we all have those, you know, like micro moments of like, misunderstanding or joy or, you know, like, that's mostly what our life is. But I think when, you know, I wasn't really taught how to, to write or, you know, do stories or. And so the only thing I can think of is, well, when I did learn there needed to be this clear arc and there needed to be like this problem in this climax and this, you know, it's so formulaic.

Andy J. Pizza (58:08)

Yes.

Rebecca Green (58:08)

That when I started to put these stories together, I was like, well, they're not really a story. Nothing really happens. But the stories, though, that I love are like coming of age things where barely anything happens.

Andy J. Pizza (58:19)

Yeah.

Rebecca Green (58:20)

Except for this person, like, deals with, you know, like internally reacts to the world, which I don't know. So.

Andy J. Pizza (58:28)

Yes. Yeah, there's a lot. And yeah, I think there's a lot of different definitions of what, What a story is and what it does. There's this. A specific arc that has a particular endpoint, inflection point. And then there are ones that have a more meandering style that circ. Circumnavigate a thing and kind of more impressionistic. And I. Yeah, I think you're. You're totally right there. One thing I wanted to come back to was when I was reading your post that where you're nestling into winter and into this new house, you talk about how, you know, I think when you haven't moved house in a long time, you don't realize that it's so uncomfortable. It's really moving out of a comfort zone into a discomfort zone where there's none of your creature comforts are set up, everything's undone, whatever. And you talked about creating those little spaces in your house where you could find a little bit of that even amongst all the discomfort. And it just made me feel like in dreams they talk about houses or buildings as a structure for your psyche. That's a symbol of this, is the structure of your inner world. And it made me think, as you're moving from these stages and you go into a new stage of the creative process, like the book or. Or your creative journey in a larger way, where now you're a different person than you were when you started wanting to be an illustrator. I wondered if you could just think of any ways in these new phases where you were finding. Where you were able to set up some of those comfortable nestling spaces within the discomfort of that. Does that make sense?

Rebecca Green (60:21)

Yeah, for sure. For sure. I'm 100% following you. I think so. Finding those sort of comfort senses in creativity, not necessarily in a house, but yes, I think. I think for me, it's realizing that I don't have to love everything. And maybe I love things at different phases. Like, I don't always love working in a sketchbook, and sometimes I love it, and sometimes I just don't want to do it. And, like, just being okay with that, being okay with the fact that, like, I don't have to do that. If I want to just do one spread, I can do that and I don't have to pick it up for five months, just letting myself off the hook for that kind of stuff. You know, for me, I meditate and I write every morning, and that is so important to me. And that is like a very grounding, I think, helps me be a good human, but also create creatively. I think that's just such a, like, special place you can take anywhere. So right now I'm. I'm mostly just working on the books. And then I'm also actually illustrating a book for another author right now, and it's totally different. And that has been interesting because I did. I said I wasn't going to do it, and then this book came along and I did it. And I think from that I've. I'm trying to, like, trust. I don't know, maybe tr. Set up a system where I trust my internal instinct versus, like, what I think other people want from me. That's kind of a big. That's a big setup. That's kind of hard. That's not like a simple. It's not a simple one, but I. I guess. I guess you'd just be seeking joy. That would be the simple thing. Like what. What sounds fun, right to this thing. What would, like, make it enjoyable for me to do? And my. My. My husband was looking at the spreads. I'd put these sketches together, and he came and he's like, wait, is any of this in the book? And I Was like, no, that's me putting my joy in it. He was like, it looks crazy. I love it. Like, it's awesome. It's so weird. And I was like, yeah, thanks. That's really. I was really trying so to be weird and joyful, so kind of carrying that through. You know, you got a heavy project, but you still, like. I mean, we have, like, rewarding jobs, you know.

Andy J. Pizza (62:28)

I love that because you went. You instantly went to. As you're navigating different stages, you're the tricky part of that is determining what stays and what goes.

Rebecca Green (62:42)

Yeah, 100%. Yep.

Andy J. Pizza (62:44)

Even when you move house, you're gonna. That usually you get rid of a lot of stuff, too, and you think, what's carry. What am I going to carry over into the new house? And you instantly went to. The first thing you went to was the ways you were going to be open, where you're like, okay, I, I, yeah. Just because I used to be the person that was doing it in the sketchbook this way doesn't mean I have to bring that to the new house. I can actually do it any other way I want to. And then. But you also tune into where. Being present with where you are in this stage and saying, but I am going to carry the, the meditation and. What was the other thing you said? Just journaling and journaling, meditation and journaling. Because that's something that actually feels right in this new season. And I think that there's. You kind of went through a bunch of little things like that where you're. You're deciding what are we throwing out and what are we bringing on, because you don't. You don't have to start completely fresh in the new house either. You can bring some of those things over.

Rebecca Green (63:47)

Yeah.

Andy J. Pizza (63:47)

Yeah. I think that that's a, That's a really good a way of tuning into. Last episode we did. We talked about listening to yourself to find, like, ideas. This one, I like this tuning in to your, to your emotional state, to your joy, like you said, and discerning like, okay, what needs to stay and what needs to go. That's a, that's an important part of the transitional process, I think.

Rebecca Green (64:16)

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good. It's a good analogy. Moving houses and stuff. And then also just like, in a creative practice, like, you just. I think we focus a lot on, like, what am I going to do now? I'm gonna be efficient at this. I'm gonna get good at this. I'm gonna, you know, it's always like, a positive thing. But what. What can I. Obviously I have to let go of a lot of stuff and thankfully there's a silver lining in everything that happened that I'm okay letting go of like a lot of stuff. A lot of stuff. But yeah, then you have to decide like, okay, well what is really helping me out? What can I keep around? What. What's worth like holding on to and like continuing, you know, in this new. In this new.

Andy J. Pizza (65:13)

Thanks Becca for joining me on another episode. Hope we get to speak again really soon. Can't wait to check out your books and and and all the new projects you have. Sending love to you and yours. And yeah, hope that you get to come back again shortly. Massive thanks to Sophie Miller for editing and co producing this show. Massive thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for the audio and video edits as well as sound design. Thanks to Yoni Wolf for the soundtrack and the theme song. And thanks to everybody for listening. Until we speak again. Stay pepped up.

Rebecca Green (66:00)

Sa.