494 - The Paradoxical Key for Creative Habits, Career Path Models & More

Summary

Creative Pep Talk Episode 494: The Paradoxical Key for Creative Habits, Career Path Models & More

Released on February 26, 2025

Host: Andy J. Pizza
Guest: Jen Kwok
Podcast: Creative Pep Talk
Special Edition: 10-Year Anniversary of Ask Dr. Pizza

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Introduction: Celebrating a Decade of Creativity

In this milestone 10-year anniversary edition of Ask Dr. Pizza, host Andy J. Pizza welcomes Jen Kwok, a multifaceted creative known for her work as a musician, actor, and comedian. This episode marks the first time the show features a live listener interaction, bringing fresh perspectives and deeply personal insights to the forefront.

Jen Kwok shares a brief introduction, highlighting her achievements, including writing a song for Sesame Street—a bucket list accomplishment where she collaborated with Big Bird during the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade (04:07).

Jen also reveals her pivotal role in coining the term “Creative Pepperonis,” a beloved nickname for the podcast’s listeners, emphasizing her long-term support and engagement with the show (05:23).

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Balancing Parenting, Creativity, and ADHD

One of the central themes of the episode revolves around the intersection of parenting, creativity, and ADHD. Jen discusses how motherhood has both unleashed her creative potential and strained her mental resources due to ADHD.

Jen Kwok expresses, "Becoming a mom was, you know, for any parent, you just realize how much raising a child stirs up all the wonder, the imagination, the play. And then it also is so taxing on your mental resources" (09:33). She seeks Andy’s advice on managing these dual demands, pondering whether to "lean into the chaos" or overlay executive functions to maintain her creative practice (09:34).

Andy J. Pizza responds by sharing his own struggles with ADHD and the necessity of employing novel strategies to sustain his creative endeavors. He emphasizes the importance of flexibility over rigid routines, stating, "You can't have a plan that is now to infinity because you will never be able to muster up that level of executive function" (10:07). Andy underscores the significance of maintaining momentum through simple actions, such as putting on slippers to signal the start of productive work (12:53).

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Navigating Life Transitions and Creative Seasons

Jen delves into the concept of "creative seasons," a recurring theme in Creative Pep Talk that resonates with many creatives grappling with life’s transitions. She reflects on her journey back into creative practice post-motherhood and amid post-COVID changes, seeking guidance on crossing the threshold from personal exploration to public sharing.

Jen Kwok remarks, "I have so much material" and describes her process of using music to uncover her next creative phase, blending nostalgia with self-discovery (24:50).

Andy J. Pizza expands on this by discussing Erikson's stages of life and how they influence personal and creative development. He shares his transition from treating the podcast as a finite project to embracing it as an ongoing creative discipline, noting, "It's more like a practice" (16:40). Andy highlights the natural evolution of creative goals and the necessity to adapt strategies as one grows older and life circumstances change (21:57).

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Persistence vs. Consistency in Creative Practice

A pivotal discussion in the episode revolves around the distinction between persistence and consistency. Jen shares her experience with a long-term embroidery project that spanned from 2014 to its completion in 2023, illustrating the challenges of maintaining consistent progress over years.

Jen Kwok explains, "The consistency of being like, what if I had worked on this every little bit every day?" (36:43). She contrasts this with persistence, emphasizing her ability to return to projects sporadically yet continue progressing despite interruptions.

Andy J. Pizza echoes this sentiment, differentiating consistency as adhering to a strict schedule versus persistence, which involves returning to creative work regardless of fluctuations. He asserts, "Persistence may be more important than consistency" (37:00), advocating for a flexible yet determined approach to creative endeavors.

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Strategies for Staying Motivated and Sharing Work

The conversation advances to practical strategies for maintaining motivation during creative slumps and overcoming the fear of sharing one’s work. Andy shares insights on balancing strategic and exploratory creativity, drawing inspiration from Seth Godin and Julian Glander.

Andy J. Pizza introduces the idea of "sprinkling novelty" into the creative process to keep projects engaging. He cites Julian Glander’s technique of leaving placeholders like "something beautiful goes here," allowing for spontaneous creativity during execution (40:05).

Jen relates this to her own practices, such as her method of integrating diverse influences into her musical theater projects, aiming to blend nostalgia with innovation (25:02). Both discuss the importance of embracing imperfection and allowing space for creative evolution.

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The Power of Accountability Partners

Towards the end of the episode, Jen emphasizes the transformative impact of accountability partners on her creative journey. She outlines her structured approach using Google Forms to track weekly creative goals, tools, successes, inspirations, and additional thoughts.

Jen Kwok details her system: "The first question is to name two or three areas of creative focus for this week... The second question is two or three tools that we will use to help us get in the flow" (51:36). This method fosters accountability, records progress, and provides a tangible means to reflect on personal growth.

Andy J. Pizza lauds this approach, acknowledging its effectiveness in maintaining creative momentum. He shares his own experience and urges listeners to seek out accountability partners, stating, "Go get yourself an accountability partner... Encourage you to do it" (55:55).

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Key Takeaways and Conclusions

The episode concludes with mutual appreciation between Andy and Jen, celebrating their shared insights and the benefits of collaborative creativity. Key takeaways include:

• Flexibility Over Rigidity: Embracing adaptable strategies to manage ADHD and creative projects.
• Persistence Above Consistency: Prioritizing the ability to return to creative work over maintaining a strict daily routine.
• Embracing Creative Seasons: Recognizing and adapting to different life stages and their impact on creativity.
• Accountability Systems: Implementing structured methods to track and support creative progress.

Andy J. Pizza encourages listeners to adopt similar strategies, such as finding accountability partners and utilizing tools like Google Forms to enhance their creative practices. Jen’s innovative approach serves as an inspiring model for maintaining and evolving creative momentum amidst life’s inevitable transitions.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jen Kwok (09:33): "Becoming a mom was, you know, for any parent, you just realize how much raising a child stirs up all the wonder, the imagination, the play. And then it also is so taxing on your mental resources."

• Andy J. Pizza (10:07): "You can't have a plan that is now to infinity because you will never be able to muster up that level of executive function."

• Jen Kwok (36:43): "The consistency of being like, what if I had worked on this every little bit every day?"

• Andy J. Pizza (55:55): "Go get yourself an accountability partner... Encourage you to do it."

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Final Thoughts:

Episode 494 of Creative Pep Talk offers a profound exploration of the creative process intertwined with personal growth, ADHD management, and the significance of supportive relationships. Jen Kwok’s candid dialogue with Andy J. Pizza provides valuable lessons for creatives seeking balance, motivation, and sustainable practices in their artistic journeys.

For more insights and to join the community of Creative Pepperonis, visit creativepeptalk.com and check out Andy J. Pizza’s work at andyjpizza.com.

Transcript

[Jen Kwok]

On the creative journey, it's easy to get lost, but don't worry, you'll lift off.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Sometimes you just need a creative pep talk. How do you get through really long projects that have all kinds of phases, all kinds of feelings, ups and downs, excitement, frustration, and then worst of all, apathy and even boredom? Like if you do a long enough project, you're going to experience probably all of those things. How do you keep going? How do you know if you even should keep going and actually finish this thing? We're going to figure this out and get into all of that. Today's episode is a special one because it's a 10 year anniversary edition of Ask Dr. Pizza. Ask Dr. Pizza are our Q and A episodes, except in this version we're going to have a listener live asking the questions in real time, which we've never done before. Jen Kwok is a musician, actor and comedian with a bunch of great credits to her name, appearing in shows like Netflix's Friends From College and Showtime's Nurse Jackie, and has had tons of fun Internet comedy songs travel all over the place. Jen is a longtime listener of the show. She actually coined the name of what we call listeners of the show, Creative Pepperonis. She came up with that. And I was just thrilled to be interviewed for this Q and A episode by such a talented creative person. And the questions really teased out things and in me that I've never explored on the show or even anywhere. Just things I hadn't really thought about. So I'm excited for you to hear it. We talk about a super helpful trick to staying motivated when a project gets boring, how to make sharing work less intimidating, and why persistency may be more important than consistency. That one really got me thinking and I think it's very true. In my own practice as well as Jen kind of hits on this in a in a way I haven't really thought about stick until the very end. Jen is going to share this way that Google Forms has helped her keep positive creative momentum along with friends of hers. And I'm definitely going to steal this from her and start doing this myself because I think it just sounds really, really great. All right, here it is. A special edition of our Q and a show. Ask Dr. Pizza.

[Jen Kwok]

We're so done with New Year, New you This year it's More youe on Bumble. More of you shamelessly sending playlists, especially that one filled with show tunes. More of you finding Geminis because you know you always like them. More of you dating with intention because you know what you want and you know what? We love that for you. Someone else will too. Be more you this year. And find them on Bumble. Your data is like gold to hackers. They're selling your passwords, bank details and private messages. McAfee helps stop them. Secure VPN keeps your online activity private. AI powered text scam detector spots phishing attempts instantly. And with award winning antivirus, you get top tier hacker protection. Plus you'll get up to $2 million in identity theft coverage, all for just $39.99 for your first year. Visit McAfee.com, cancel anytime terms apply.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Maybe first you could just introduce yourself a little bit.

[Jen Kwok]

Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

So go ahead.

[Jen Kwok]

Okay. I'm Jen Kwok. I am a writer, performer, mostly a songwriter. Have been a comedian and an actor in the past.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. And you've done a whole bunch of cool things. You. You did a song for Sesame street, right?

[Jen Kwok]

Yes. That is a bucket list thing for sure.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's amazing.

[Jen Kwok]

What was, was the song that was introducing Jiyoung, the first Asian muppet on Sesame street, who they did a whole special for her and she sang the song at the end with, with Big Bird, all the, you know, stars, and it was on the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Oh, my God.

[Jen Kwok]

Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

So crazy.

[Jen Kwok]

It literally just like hit every single, like, bing, bing, bing that I've always wanted to do as a musician. And I mean, writing words for Big Bird and then seeing Big Bird sing the words is definitely one of those moments, like, just so surreal, you know, is mind blowing.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That. Yes. That is incredible.

[Jen Kwok]

Thank you.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And then second on the list right below that is you're the person that came up with Creative Pepperonis. Right?

[Jen Kwok]

That's right. I'm proud of that one.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Listen, I know it's not second on the list. I'm joking. But yes, you are the person who came up with that. Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

Back in the day, I feel like. So I'm definitely a long time listener. And I remember, you know, in the, the halcyon days of Twitter, you were like, hey, any thoughts on what we could call like, the listeners of the show? And immediately I was like, pepperonis. This is low hanging.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You crushed it and you were stuck.

[Jen Kwok]

You were a little apprehensive at first, which I also understand.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

It's a strong choice.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's a strong choice. And, you know, we just keep it light and not take it too seriously. But I really, I thought that was hilarious and I'd forgotten that was you, so thanks for reminding me. But that. Yeah, it stuck.

[Jen Kwok]

Yeah. To all my fellow pepperonis out there.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. That's so funny. That's great. Well, thanks for doing this. I'm really excited to chat with you, and I know you have some questions prepared, but, yeah, seriously, thanks for coining that and thanks for supporting and listening for ages.

[Jen Kwok]

Yeah, listen. Thank you. And, like, the community, like, this podcast has really been part of my, I guess, creative adulthood because I really started listening, you know, in, you know, whenever. Like, I think like a year after you started, my sister, who is a designer, put me onto it, and there are so many ups and downs. I mean, I feel like listening to you talk about ADHD was one of the first things that helped me recognize it in myself. And then many years later, being diagnosed with that and. And just so many times that I felt like I'm not doing, you know, what I want to do or even when I wasn't able to actively create for whatever life reasons, listening to the podcast, like, kept me going. Like, it kept my juices going. So I'm super happy to be able to talk to you. And you're also, like, a celeb in our house because I told my son that I was talking to Andy J. Pizza, and I said, is there anything you want to say to him? And he said, I love your books. I can't wait for you to write more. And can you write a book about bacteria?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Bacteria?

[Jen Kwok]

Because he. He thought invisible things.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I love it. I. You know, I. That was. That was my favorite part of science class was getting to draw, like, cells and plant cells. And I still. Even today, it must be from drawing all of it. I have all of the stuff memorized of, like, endoplasmic reticulum.

[Jen Kwok]

Mitochondria.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Mitochondria.

[Jen Kwok]

Let's go.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. I loved it. That's awesome. I love that idea. I'd love. Yeah, I'd love to do, like, a magic school bus type invisible things where they're going in and seeing all. Everything at the micro level. It's good. That's. That's a good, good idea there.

[Jen Kwok]

Yeah. The audience is. Is there for it. The mini pepperoni is asking for it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's so funny.

[Jen Kwok]

Dr. Pizza. Oh, I was thinking about what I wanted to ask you about today, and I realized that the. The kind of, like, three questions or areas that I thought about all had to do with transitions. And so I think, you know, as you and I were chatting a little bit before, you know, we went on the record, but we're going through changes in our country right now. Transitions all over the place. And very often it just doesn't feel good and, or, you know, catches you in a way that is surprising or just, you know, confusing. And so kind of the first question that I have because I, I think there's. Everybody just does it so differently is about parenting, creativity and adhd, kind of the intersection of all of those. Because for me, becoming a mom was, you know, I think for any parent, you just realize how much raising a child, like, stirs up all the wonder, the imagination, the play. And then it also is so taxing on your mental resources.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Very true.

[Jen Kwok]

And so, so as a creative, I'm like, oh my gosh, like, this is like really opening me up so much. But then on the other side, having ADHD myself and being like, I need to use whatever tiny bit of executive function that I've like mustered together to help you get your shoes on and do everything to get out the door. And so I was curious how you approach it. Lean into the chaos, Try to, you know, put executive function on top of executive function. What, what is the pizza way?

[Andy J. Pizza]

You know, honestly, I feel like, you know, making the show every week, I feel like so much about it is combating my own ADHD and realizing that it's not enough to have strategies. I have to have novel strategies. I have to have strategies that are fresh and new. And I haven't done this before because I've actually become allergic to if I find myself thinking about, all you need to do is that all you need to do is every day get up at this time and do this thing. As soon as my brain starts doing that, I'm thinking, well, that that's never going to happen. You could do that for three days. If you're lucky, you could do it for seven days. But you can't have a plan that is now to infinity because you will never be able to muster up that level of executive function. And so I think for me, even though I'm aware of like, oh, okay, I've been making this show for 10 years and it's a lot of information. And for some people that's a bit like information overload. For me, it's not because I have to do new things all the time. I have to try a different way. And one of the things I think about all the time is it doesn't really matter what's on my to do list. I'm still going to have a low level or high level anxiety relationship with the to do list. Because the first thing to do is how do you get yourself to do anything that that's just a, I know that's a dragon I have to slay every single day. And it's always different because what worked yesterday doesn't necessarily work today. And you know, honestly, I say all that first of all, not because it's a, it's an insight or it's going to help anybody, but, but maybe it'll at least feel validating with your own kind of journey. Because I think, yeah, I feel like at getting close to 40, I'm really annoyed. I'm really annoyed by why do I just have to do this forever? Why do I have to constantly figure my own self out? And then once I figure it out, it changes. So that's really, you know, frustrating. But I think that there are some like basic things that I've learned. Like the, the number one is once I get the train moving in the morning, don't let it stop until I've done the bare minimum. Like a lot of times I'll come home and some and my wife or if my mother in law is there, like she comes and visits a few times a year and they're like, how was the day? How'd you do? I'm like, got the bare minimum done. That's what I do.

[Jen Kwok]

Congratulations to us.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And so I, that is the, that's the main thing is I've heard people say, like, don't sit down. These are the random things. Like one of the things that like changed everything for me was getting slippers. Because I, I have just. And I've heard other neurodivergent people talk about this. Like if I don't have shoes or slippers on, I'm not doing things. I'm like on the verge of sleeping. It's just this like mental thing of like, oh, I've got shoes on almost. I'm doing, I'm washing the dishes, I'm getting stuff done. And so I don't know, just random little things like that. Like it once, if I'm getting the kids off to school and I'm working on that, I can't then take a break after that. I need to roll that momentum straight into the next thing. And that's pretty helpful.

[Jen Kwok]

The object that like is in motion just stays in motion. And the object that is not emotion. That's so true. You know what, you just help me make a connection with the slippers thing because I'm wearing slippers right now and I'm doing this podcast. But like sometimes when I'm, I'm like stuck.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

And then I'll be like, what is the next thing I do? And I'll be like, I don't know, how do I get out of here? And then I'll look over and I'll see my slippers and I'll be like, I'm going to put my slippers on. And then.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You're right. I never. That's the weirdest thing.

[Jen Kwok]

I never noticed that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's so weird. And I told I had. I figured that out for myself. And it was kind of like a joke around the house in a way. And then I saw like random tick tocks or something about neurodivergent people needing like shoes to do anything, to be like, oh, this is. And it just changes your brain state. So sometimes on Saturday if I'm like walking around the house trying to get stuff done and I'm fine, like, my God, there's so much resistance. I don't want to do these chores. I don't want to do this stuff. And I think shoes. And I put shoes on and I'm like, oh, I'm like a professional job doer now.

[Jen Kwok]

It's like a superhero cape, but for your feet. I really do have like three pairs of slippers. And I'm like, I feel like I subconsciously did this for myself. Thank you, brain.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's true. It's so weird.

[Jen Kwok]

Oh, my God. Wow. The second question that I have is still on the theme of transition for. So one thing that I feel like I gained so much from with your podcast was the idea of seasons and creative seasons. And I love that. I feel like we as a society are embracing that more. And then through the creative lens, I'm like, oh, man. I don't have to feel bad that this is what I'm focusing on right now. Because your brain automatically thinks about the 47 million other things that you're not doing.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

And so I kind of. It took me a very long time, I think, to kind of get back into my creative groove after having my son. You know, it was like post cold Covid times, just many things happening. And so I spent the last year really being like, I'm back in my practice. I'm doing my thing. I have little communities and like buddies and accountability buddies. And I'm finding my way. And I feel like I'm on the precipice and maybe our combo here is part of it, of being like, I think I'm ready to go back into the world and maybe show something or share something.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

And so my question around that is like, how do you make that transition over the threshold. Because I feel like you, you know, with the consistency of the podcast and even to a certain extent, your. Your posts, you. You have found a way to, like, keep very consistent. So maybe there isn't so much of a break, but I'm like, whoa, this is truly. I feel like there's like, some sort of mindset switch or, you know, time to step on stage or just something like that that I need to, like, go through.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, yeah. And I. So I feel like I. This has been a theme. Talking to lots of guests recently around the idea of seasons or stages. I got really nerdy about Ericson's stages of life. Have you ever heard of that? H. It's a bit. But, yeah, it's like a psychology thing, and I don't think it's, like, exact or anything, but it was really interesting because I'm kind of, like, obsessed with this idea of. Up until you leave high school or college, you have these very distinct marked stages, like elementary, preschool, elementary school, middle school, high school. They're just like, in college, they have these, like, expectations what you're supposed to be doing, what's normal to be doing in that time frame. And then you leave that, and it's like, okay, now the next stages work from 22 to when you're retired. That. That's work. And. And then I've also become kind of really obsessed and interested in the idea of, like, the midlife crisis. Watching, you know, when I was growing up, watching people in my life go through that and thinking, I'm never going to do that, and I don't think I am going to do that, but I can feel, oh, you're h. It. There's almost a. There's a natural life stage as you get to your, you know, late 30s, early 40s, where you. You have this sense of mortality that you've never had. You realize you're like, oh, the choices I made, like that. Those. Those are made. Those cards are played. Things are in motion. There's nothing stopping those things at this point. It's not infinite possibility, but you also have a bunch of other different things that you never had before, too, that are positive things. And so I've been thinking a lot about the stages of life because I feel this pressure or the pressure of all of these changes make you realize, like, oh, in the same way that I had to be a different person exiting high school and entering college and college into real life, I'm having to access a different side of myself or develop a different side of myself. And so the only thing I know about that is I'm a real project based learner. So I think that for me, I love a project because it's this perfect sweet spot between grit and pivoting. So grit in that you've committed to something for a period of time if it's a project or a particular goal or particular achievement, but then pivot because there's also an end date. And I think, you know, honestly, like, I don't have any intentions of shutting the podcast down. I love doing the podcast. It's. It's just been one of the most creative and positive experiences of my life. But I do think that I realized like, oh, without. I had started the podcast thinking I'm going to do 100 episodes of this and it probably won't be super successful and that'll be enough and I'll just stop. But it was more successful than I expected it to be. And so I kept doing it, but now it's no longer like a project. It's more like a discipline or a practice. And that's. And so these are. I'm kind of externalizing all of my thoughts here because I think in it, there's some evidence of what this looks like because Prior to age 30, everything was a project, everything was a journey, everything had a goal. And there was kind of a telos to the thing that I was after. And then in the past five years, it's been, it's changed. It's kind of felt like it went from, oh, this is what I want to become. From my 20s to my early 30s to now it feels more like, how do you be, how do you be the thing that you wanted to become? Now you're just being it. And I, I think I'm getting comfortable with that. And that's. But my point is that's a dramatic shift. And there was a, there was a few years there where I was like panicking about, like, where's the goal? Like, what, how do I stay motivated without the, you know, end goal? And I had a big shift into, oh, stay motivated by. The goal is to make an illustration that like, feels successful or like a book that feels like, oh, that's, I nailed it. Or write another metaphor that has a punchy ending like that. And then. And that could be something I do forever. And so I think the thing I'm trying to get at, I think, is just that I don't think anybody prepared me for the idea that there were going to be more stages after I turned 20 and those stages would look like learning to be a different kind of person in maybe a dramatic way. I don't know if that answers your question, but it's some. I'm thinking about a ton.

[Jen Kwok]

I mean, it definitely, I think, brings up more questions for me, but I feel like, yeah, I. I totally relate to the fact that, you know, before, it was just so clear, you know, you do this and then you do that. And again, seeing it through, you know, raising a kid and being like, okay, preschool's over and now kindergarten starts. And then here's the set of behaviors or, you know, goals or milestones that go along with that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

And then we start. We sort of kind of lose that as adults, you know, and then it kind of, you know, one version of it is just being like, you get a car, you get a, you know, you get a wife, you get it. And then that is like a whole other set of, you know, goals. But then having things that are intrinsic to yourself. Like even what you were saying about having an end date. Right. I didn't have an end date for, like, how long am I going to be in this exploratory phase? But then when I kind of look at it, I'm like, oh, this was kind of like my, you know, little mini college that I made for myself, you know, and so what does it look like to say, hey, I did that, and now let's move into, like, the grad school phase and, like, maybe work on a. My version of a thesis or a project of what I've spent, you know, the last year throwing spaghetti on the wall about. But I think, yeah, when you don't have a container of a project, then it gets very nebulous.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, I think also, I didn't ever think I would. Anything would, you know, with picture books and the podcast, mainly a little bit with talks. But those two things. I never thought any. Anything I did would work. Just like you're never planning for anything to work. And so now that some things are. Have worked and client work, you know, I've done client work most of my adult life, and I kind of also thought that would go away. And it hasn't really gone away. It's kind of shifted. I never prepared for, like, being a person that has, like, some of the trappings of a regular job and that you're just like, now you're just doing this thing on repeat. What was the thing you said about the thesis? Like, you're using a project almost like a thesis.

[Jen Kwok]

Yeah, because I think that when you're kind of like exploring, which is kind of like, you know, very thankfully, what I kind of was able to do this past year was just like, you know, try out different things to then be like, what is the next progression of that? And say, how do I, you know, dig a little bit deeper and create like a, like a bigger container for that? Just like, I feel like projects, whether people are hiring you for stuff or you're making your own container, you know, that is, that is a way to just kind of like direct your energy.

[Andy J. Pizza]

What was the. Do you have. What was the specific thesis idea? Was there a specific thing or is it more general?

[Jen Kwok]

So there is a theme to it. So the last year I have all these post its on my wall and it's a song from every single year of my life that was important to me in some way. That's so cool. Thank you.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's a great exercise. I love that.

[Jen Kwok]

So kind of my thought was, if I want to find out what is the next stage of myself as a musician, let's go all the way back and see the things that have influenced me. And I was really surprised, you know, by some of the songs came up. Like, I was like, oh, Queen. Queen is a huge influence on me. Even though, you know, if you listen to my music, you're not like, oh yeah, she's rocking out. Like, you know, but huge. And so kind of my, my next thought was, how do I turn this into. I don't know if it would be a substack or just something where I would have a way of combining that nostalgia with self discovery and then perhaps making something new with it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

So that's really cool.

[Jen Kwok]

Thank you. Yeah, the brain is starting to.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I love it. I've heard a similar kind of prompt where when you're, you know, doing work that's autobiographical or something, or even not, you're just trying to get a sense of who you are. You can just, you know, do a timeline of every year of your life and just see if there's any clear memories that you can slot into those and you can kind of look at yourself on paper in a way that might show you something new. And I love the idea of doing that through the lens of songs. That's really a cool way of thinking about it.

[Jen Kwok]

I mean, that's a benefit for having lived so long, right? I have so much material.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's hilarious. And you know. Yeah, I, I love this, yeah, this, this idea around. Because also I did a thing too where I looked backwards and I was trying to throw together like who I'VE been when I was most happy, when I was feeling most creative. And the thing that happened this last time I did that was realizing that all of the. A lot of these things were embracing the season that I was in. And I can't go back to them either. I can't. I actually have to find the things that are happening now that are worth leaning into and embracing. And it kind of reminds me of the David White clip that you probably. Everyone's probably seen it all over the place, but this idea of the pathless path, this part where you know that you're on your path when it disappears and there is no path and now you're the. Your life. The purpose of it is to do. Just be someone that's never been before and you're no longer have the guides and the mentors. You don't have the models and that. I feel like there's a part of me that just absolutely hates that. It just feels so overwhelming. And it did. At least for a few years. I feel like I'm a little bit more comfortable with it.

[Jen Kwok]

I find that comforting, I think.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

Yeah. But I can definitely see how it is a little. Oh, no. Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Well, what. What makes you feel comforted by it?

[Jen Kwok]

Well, I think, you know, even to what you just said, where it's like, you just do something that no one's ever done before, so then how can you fail?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, true.

[Jen Kwok]

You know, like, even if you in your failure, you're like, oh, man, no one's failed like that before. Yeah, that's all part of it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. That's funny.

[Jen Kwok]

So I had a question then about the. That like, micro moment of sharing something like, I don't know, even with like, you know, oh, I recorded this podcast. Now it's time for people to hear it. Or I made this thing, now I'm gonna post it. Like how. Like what. What have you kind of used to navigate those moments of transition?

[Andy J. Pizza]

You know, I've heard Seth Godin talk about this, where the reason he did a daily blog for years and years and still does is just making that a muscle and just getting used to that and becoming it normalizes it so that you're not. You're not really overthinking. Used to be that the. The podcast day was like a source of anxiety. It was like, oh, my gosh, I put a bunch of thoughts out again and an illustration and whatever. Um, and for the longest time, at first it wasn't anxious because nobody was listening to it. So I didn't. Who. Who cares? I was just trying to do something. Then there was a good chunk in the middle where I was like, oh, my gosh. People even, like, people in my life knew, like, Wednesday morning, just, like, he's going to be tense because he just put a half an hour of himself on the Internet. Now, it's funny because my wife got more involved in the past couple years, and Tuesday night, Wednesday morning, she would be scheduling some of these things, and that would be a lot of anxiety, and she would start feeling it until she got a little bit more used to it. And I think now that I've done it for 10 years, I do have a. I. I guess one of the things I've been obsessed with my. My whole life is watching creative people's journeys. Even when. Even when we were kids, we would talk about, like, actors decisions and the timelines of their movies and. And musicians. I don't know why. I don't know if that's normal, but that's a thing that me and my brothers and my dad kind of would talk about or comment on or think about. Like, why do they make those choices? You know? I don't know, because it comes to mind, like, Nicholas Cage, you're, like, watching this, like, these. These different decisions, like, what is he doing?

[Jen Kwok]

What.

[Andy J. Pizza]

What do you. Oh, okay. That's kind of cool. But, you know, like, I don't know, just. I've been very, like, thought. I've always thought a lot about the decisions that people make as they move through their career. And. And so I actually heard this thing from Jerry Seinfeld the other day where he was talking about writing. And I thought, this is, like, one of the most brilliant pieces of creative advice I've ever heard. And he was saying, like, when you're working on the writing and you're thinking, this isn't that good. This is what you need to think. Yeah, it's not that good. That's why you have to work at it, because you're not that great. And I just thought that is. That has served me really well to just be like, to me, it's just a lot of work. It's not. It's a lot of work. There's a lot of revision. There's a lot of, like, learning craft and trying things and putting out tons of stuff. For me, that's my life. And so I always. I never thought I knew. When I was in high school, I knew that in high school art class. I wasn't the best in high school at drawing. Right. So there was always a sense of, like, for me, it's going to be a lot of work. It's going to be a lot of growth. And so I look to. I never looked to like, you know, a Tom York or like these brilliant people that just defy tumbles out. Somehow I just knew, like, I'm not like that. And so the people that inspired me, when I'm, like, looking at their creative journeys, were people that were really prolific and allowed themselves to make mistakes. I guess people like Nicholas Cage.

[Jen Kwok]

That was like the best example where it was like, we were all wondering.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, I mean, but there was, you know. Yeah, I'm kidding. And also, and I'm not like a Nicholas Cage fan, but per se, but I did think I would like that kind of career where you do so many things that people aren't precious about it. And I remember watching, if you watch someone, like, I don't know, the weekend came to mind for some reason where he had these, like, just hit after hit and it got bigger and he got bigger and bigger and bigger. And I just kind of felt like by the time he did that show that got panned critically, I thought that was inevitable. Like, that was inevitable. You can't just climb up to the right and actually. So, yeah, okay, super long winded answer. But I think for me, accepting that my creative journey was going to be just messy and it wasn't all going to be good and some. And I wouldn't always know what the best stuff was or what was going to be the game changer, but I had a consistency of releasing and making it a muscle and making it normal.

[Jen Kwok]

That makes so much sense. Like. Yeah, because even looking back at, like, when I was doing one or two comedy shows a night in New York, you know, it, like, the nervousness wasn't there. It was like, let me just finish this so I can, like, get in a cab and get to the next show and do it again. And so, yeah, I think to a certain extent, like, the fact that you're like, it's one of many reps, or however you look at it, instead of being like, all right, I'm gonna do one perfect rep in front of everyone and that will determine the fate of the universe.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, yeah. It's too much. And I, Yeah, I've always just kind of admired the musicians that have had, you know, the. The Innocence Mission, just put out a record. This is like, you know, I don't know if they have, like, 17 records. They've been doing it for years and years and years, and it didn't make a Huge splash. It's not going to make a huge splash but they have their built in audience that they've made a relationship with and they know people know what they do and they're going to keep doing it. I think I just always wanted to be like that. I just always wanted to because I wanted to do it forever and I also just didn't. I don't know, it was so sad to me if someone just have this like, has this like huge, you know, I never wanted to make creativity like being in the NBA where you're like your best years are in your early 20s. I just, I could be wrong. Like maybe I'll have a stage later where I'm like, man, I suck and I don't want to make this anymore. I don't know, who knows? But I, I feel like to me it's, it's more of a practice than, than I think making that transition of releasing stuff to being in your bunker. Making stuff you want to make. You want to like eliminate all the friction and all the fear and pain by just making it really, really regular.

[Jen Kwok]

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[Andy J. Pizza]

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[Jen Kwok]

Credit.

[Andy J. Pizza]

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[Jen Kwok]

I feel like a huge theme for me has been persistence versus consistency because I'm really persistent. Like I have this embroidery on my wall that I started in 2014 and.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Not the one with the rectangles.

[Jen Kwok]

Oh, they're here.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Oh, it's different.

[Jen Kwok]

Yeah, it's this blue cross stitch. I started it in 2014 when I broke my leg.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

And then I kind of forgot about it, like moved twice and then took it out again and I finished it last year and I was like, hell, yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

But the kind of consistency of being like, what if I had worked on this every. A little bit every day? You know? And so I feel like that that's what I'm trying to, like, get back on that horse. Because I feel like, yeah, I have the muscle now of being like, I can show up for myself. And then now it's the muscle of like, how do we get myself to the stage of sharing that?

[Andy J. Pizza]

The persistency versus consistency. So are you saying the consistency is like, making it a rule and it happens at a particular time and you can do that? Is that what the consistency is? And persistency is more like, even if it's sporadic, even if it's like, you know, even if you go cold and hot, you're gonna keep coming back and pushing it.

[Jen Kwok]

Yes. Yes. So I would say kind of to. To your example before. For me, per. One thing that I have been consistent with is vocal work because, you know, there are some vocalists who just like, I just did a workshop with Sara Bareilles, and she was like, I had to take a voice lesson for the first time in my life in my 40s. And I was like, you've been singing like this the whole time. And like, you basically just open your mouth and it happens. And so for me, I was like, vocal wise, I've always, you know, and kind of similar to what you said with the novelty, like, I. I don't every day do the same vocal exercises. Like, I'll be like, oh, there's this Boyz II Men song that. There's a really cool riff here. I'm just gonna do that riff, you know, for like the. The next week until I get it. And I.

[Andy J. Pizza]

What Boys to Men song are we talking, like, you know, end of the road. End of the road, yeah. That's a classic.

[Jen Kwok]

Yes.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I wish I could sing that. Sounds like a real great one to be able to belt.

[Jen Kwok]

Next phase, Andy. The next phase. That's your midlife crisis mission. Here's your. Your rap album that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

God.

[Jen Kwok]

So I have kind of one final question, which I think kind of ties into what we've already talked about, but kind of. How do I put this? So many times I will have these projects that I come up for come up for myself to work on, and then a bigger client project or, you know, even life thing will come in and I'm like, I'm derailed. And then when that thing ends, to come back to it, and I'm like, ah, that energy is gone. Because I feel like. Like a superpower of ADHD is we follow that energy, you know, like when we're in that mojo, when we're in that flow, whatever it is, you're like, oh, it's so present.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

And so kind of coming back to something that has been a little interrupted. And you're like, now I come back, like, it looks. It looks different, it feels different. How do. How do we continue?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, that. I mean, honestly, that's a painful question, because the answer that I have is not one that I want to hear myself. And so the most important projects I've ever done have all gone through. Like, the ones that I've had really had a positive impact on my creative journey and my career. Almost all of them have had that trajectory exactly where I'm. I'm really on fire for this thing. I'm obsessed with it. I'm like, can't, you know, I can't stop thinking about. I'm working on it like crazy. And then for whatever reason gets derailed, I have to do something else. Focus on other projects, whatever, you know, client work. And it might even be like a couple years until you come back to it. Right. And in that zone, when I've been in that zone, especially the first couple times, because you don't have the history of what do I need to do in this space? I would get into this feeling of this is kind of like the through line for the whole show is this growth mindset. Because the growth mindset is all the bad feelings, the feelings that don't feel positive, resistance or difficulty or challenge you. You have to be able to discern which of these are things you need to push through and wish which of these are things that say you need to turn around. I heard a quote from. It was Tim Ferriss quoting somebody else recently, and he was. He was saying, you have to be able to recognize what's an opportunity and what's a temptation. And you have to figure out, like, where. And that discernment is so key and that it's super key to knowing the growth mindset too, because there are things that you're doing where, oh, this is actually pushing against my nature. This is pushing against my values. This is uphill because this is never going to happen. For me, that's a different feeling than, this is uncomfortable. I don't know if I am excited. I'm, you know, whatever. And you have to really get into parsing out which feeling you're experiencing. But for me, if there Was something where the fire was there in a way that was. I knew this was like, authentically connected to who I am and what I want to be about in the world. And I, you know, it's really on fire. I know there's gonna be a middle part of that marathon where I don't care anymore. And the thing is, is that the times that I was willing to push through that anyway and figure out, and a lot of that turned into, like, hacking my brain in one way or another. One of the biggest. Probably the biggest tool that helps me is talking to somebody about it, who. I've never talked about this project too. And having to, like, repitch it, see the reaction, get some freshness to it. And that, like when we were doing the Right side Out project, the series that we did last year on the show about ADHD and my mom, I. That was such a long. I'd been working that for 10 years easily, and there were. By the time it's ready. And this is the other thing that happens is that I'm gonna. I'm gonna circle back to that in a second. But the other thing that happens is another huge through line on the show is strategic creativity versus exploratory creativity. And finding the sweet spot between those two things is really, really difficult. Another way of saying it is the plotter energy versus the pants or energy. Can you. Can you have a goal in mind and then reverse engineer the plot so that it ends where you want it to end? Um, that's a delicate balance because there have been books that I've written or things like Right side Out or whatever, where once you break the story, once you know where it's going, all of a sudden it's not as fun for you to get there and finish it because you're not making up stuff. And I love talking to Julian Glander last year on the show because he gave me a real good hack for this, which he would say when he was working on his screenplay, there'd be sections where he just leave something beautiful goes here. And he knew that when he's animating that later, he's going to be able to have fun, he's going to be able to make something up. And so I'm very. And I've said this a billion times, but I'm very obsessed with the Larry David, curb your enthusiasm thing of we have an outline and a plot, but we don't have a script. We're going to improv the script. So, like, finding that sweet spot is so essential. And the thing Is when we did right side out was the same thing that happened because we had, I had the, the overall structure, three act structure really down. I knew exactly what I wanted to say with it. I had a couple, I had probably three or four stories where I was like, I know what this is about. But then as we move through it, I think probably what helped me get through it was realizing that I think the. My fire didn't turn back on until when we were working on the second of six episodes and we came up with something Sophie and I are writing and we came up with something I didn't know we were going to do. And it was one of the best things in it. And I was like, oh, I can actually make this thing new. And then I can like, it's just that beautiful thing here. I realized like, oh, we have a few spots where it's going to be a challenge. It's going to be interesting. Oh, and as we move through, doesn't end how I thought it was going to. And, and so yeah, I think that trying to inject some of that pantser energy, that exploratory energy where you're like, okay, I know you feel like you had it figured out. You feel like you kind of are done with it. What would it look like if you're like, well, even just for my own interest, what if I just chopped this thing up and reinvented what it was? How could I make it exciting again? That I think I did that every time I got into that spot. And I'm glad that's a great question because I don't think I've ever fully thought through that enough to kind of codify it to do it again on purpose. But I think I will do that now. Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

Because I think like when you said hack your brain, I was like, all right, let's, let's listen up because you have to.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, the only way.

[Jen Kwok]

I mean. And it's very similar to like the novelty thing because like, I definitely agree with you where it's like, you know, to, to kind of for me struggle with like structure and be like, we're going to make an outline now. And then sometimes it ends up feeling like, okay, I have drawn the outline of everything and now I just created a color by numbers for myself. And that is not interesting.

[Andy J. Pizza]

No, you know, absolutely. And you know, another image that really helps me think about this is the archetype of like the two headed monster and just realizing, okay, and this is what it feels like to be adhd. So you have one who really wants to do this, really wants to follow through, really wants to finish a project put out in the world. And you know, you have one head that's like that, but you have the other head where they're like, I ain't doing that if it's not fun, how is it? And so I think just realizing like I'll never be the person that that is just the one head that just. I'm doing it because it's the right thing to do and I'll be proud that I did it. And just realizing like I'm always going to have that. How do I entice that part of myself that needs to get. And I'm working on a book right now and I'm going through the process of the thumbnails, which is a really fun process because it's like you're making it up and it's very novel. And I know the next stage is going to be. Can be more challenging where I'm going to clean up the sketches. But I realized like, oh, I'm leaving looseness so that ideas are going to happen in the sketch phase. And then I even had to do the same thing. That's what I loved about starting to work. Traditionally more traditional with paint and stuff is happy accidents on. In Photoshop, when you're drawing digitally almost never look good. They're like, you have to be precise when you're working digitally. You can't, it's for me at least I can't really do that. Whereas now that I'm mostly painting it, the last stage is still fun. And again, that's a hacking my brain. Thing is I'm like, okay, when I move to the paint phase, there's going to be elements where I don't even know how that's going to work until I'm doing it. And I think sprinkling that novelty throughout the process is really important. You know, I, the only thing I push back on there is like on myself. That's the other head chiming in. Yeah, yeah. By the way, also the part of the, you know, the two headed monster, the other head, that's like real serious and planned and all that is like, yeah, but keep the novelty, sprinkle it throughout the whole process. But also, I guess I'm just constantly petitioning creatives to allow themselves to plan, try to have a plot, allow yourself to have some strategy and outlines. Because you know, I just, we watched the whole season one of Severance again and I thought this thing is like such a clear example of what's Powerful about plotting. It's like, so much pays off. It's so satisfying for the viewer. It was probably so satisfying to come up with that plot. And then the challenge becomes, how do you make it interesting? Because making a show like that is going to be, you know, so much time and, like, finding those places where you can do the insert beautiful thing here. Make sure you have a bunch of those. Yeah, I don't know. I'm very obsessed with trying to figure out how to maintain the balance of those two things. Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

God, yeah. I definitely relate to that because. Yeah, the two heads, the one that's like shiny object. Shiny object.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, absolutely. You were mentioning a thing before we got on here about an accountability partner and a practice that you do, and I thought that would be great to end the episode with. Do you want to just talk about that a little bit?

[Jen Kwok]

Yeah, sure. So I have an accountability buddy. We have been checking in, I would say, almost three years now. And so we center it around the new moon. We, you know, just have like an hour chat. And kind of over the last half of year, we added this element, which I think has been a game changer for both of us because we are both neurodivergent, you know, have a million things. My friend Mindy, Mindy Raf is also a comedian, writer, singer, doing all the things. And so the container that we made, which I believe she was the one who came up with it, and then we came up with the questions together, was to use Google form. Because I don't know if there's other people out there who also love a Google form.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, I do. Yeah, it's a great tool.

[Jen Kwok]

Yeah. Whenever I join something, they're like, okay, just fill out this quick Google form to let us know your preferences. And I'm like, yay. It's like a quiz or something, you know?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, it is. It feels like BuzzFeed or something.

[Jen Kwok]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes.

[Jen Kwok]

So I feel like that, like, dopamine hit is great. And so we now have this weekly Google form, which we call our creative container. Check in. And we have five questions on there. The first question is to name two or three areas of creative focus for this week. And. And so for a while, I've been working on musical theater. So I'm like, I want to feel like I'm 50% there with a song demo. Yeah. You know, she might have. Oh, a substack draft, something like that. So very concrete. Two or three things. The second question is then two or three tools that we will use to help us get in the flow or navigate any potential challenges. So, you know, knowing, like, for me, I'm like, once I get into Logic Pro and I start working on the demo, I will probably get too obsessed with eqing something when I'm like, listen, just put the ideas in. This is just a sketch. And so then one of the tools might be, you know, check in with yourself every 20 minutes, set a timer and take a walk and come back so that you don't, you know, get trapped in a rabbit hole.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

The third question is two or three things from the previous week's focus. So, like, the previous week's number one that you're proud of the wins, you know, like, I was really scared about, you know, doing this key change, but I watched a couple YouTube tutorials and I navigated it. Whatever. Whatever it is. And then the fourth thing, this isn't actually new for this year, is something that inspired or motivated you this past week. So you'll very often, I feel, you know, even all. All the quotes that you were thrown out, you know, during this episode, you know, there's just conversations that you have, you know, like. Like, probably my next week's answer to this number four question will be like, my combo with Andy J. Pizza.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

You know.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

So just putting out things like that influences inspirations. And then the fifth one is just literally, any additional thoughts? Because, you know, you're.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's good to have an extra box. Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

Yeah. Just to be like, I was super sick this week and I didn't do anything, or, you know, I was feeling super bummed because of this, or, you know, this came up, or this is a new, you know, diet change that I made, and I think it's really helping. So that is kind of like the leave room for. For, like, life question. So. Yeah. So those are the.

[Andy J. Pizza]

How did you agree on those questions?

[Jen Kwok]

We. We talked it out initially, and so this has evolved a little bit. So we there. They were always kind of somewhat similar, but we did reshuffle the ones this year. So I think another important part of the process that we're now seeing is to maybe just check in every six months or so to say, is this still working? You know, because. Right. Like, noticing, you know, that some of the stuff that we were writing was like, you know, hey, I read this book and it really xyzed, or I, you know, watched this show, and that jogged my mind for this.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

And so adding that and then having all of this flow into a Google sheet, and then we can kind of look at each other's responses and also for yourself, like, I'll look back and I'll be like, oh my gosh, I've been working on the same demo for two months. Or I'll be like, hell yeah, I worked on the same demo for two months and now it's done, or whatever it is. So just having this record is, I think, very self affirming. And then, you know, having that added accountability. So kind of like once we finish, I believe we choose like Sunday Monday to kind of fill this out. And then, and then we just text each other an emoji to say I did it. And so, you know, just choosing whatever emoji we feel that day. If it's Christmas, Christmas tree, you know, if it's pizza.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Pizza, that's really cool. But how did you. You know, when I was a young whippersnapper, I was very nerdy about having these sorts of chats with friends. And, you know, it's natural as you're getting out of like college and people have similar goals. It's kind of built in a little bit and you can kind of get by with that for a while. I feel like as I've gotten older, I've. I've gotten more just embarrassed about doing stuff like this. I. But I know it's such a, it's such a game changer to have an accountability. Those times in my life where I had that we. And we were aware of like what each other's working on and we're actually investing each other. It is really just super important. How. How did this relationship come to be so.

[Jen Kwok]

So Mindy and I have known each other forever. We started out on the comedy scene doing bringer shows in like the early 2000s. And.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And for people who don't know. Tell me what that is.

[Jen Kwok]

Oh, boy. So at a comedy club, if you're a new comedian, you need to guarantee or bring usually 20 people.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

To the show so that you have an audience. Right. Because no audience wants to see a bunch of people who don't know what they're doing. And usually, yeah, it's basically you convincing all your friends to go and they have to buy a ticket and two drinks. So it is an expensive evening. You are bringing that club hundreds of dollars so that you can stand on stage for seven to 10 minutes and do your thing. But yeah, so we really went through the trenches together and we're both musical comedians. So then for a while we were on the college circ it together and we kind of, you know, we're in and out of Touch. Once Covid happened, we all, you know, were online Instagram and kind of keeping up with each other that way. And I kind of had this moment where I think my son, you know, had reached a certain age. So I was like, you know, okay, I kind of know how to be a parent now. And I was like, and I want to get back to creative practice. So I put out there, you know, to just my followers. Who wants to be an accountability buddy? And so I believe like five or six people raise their hands and to this day, like three of them are still really going strong.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Wow.

[Jen Kwok]

And so Mindy and I, you know, we had this long history, but then kind of reconnecting and seeing how our paths are parallel now. And then I have another accountability buddy who he and I totally met straight up on. On Instagram and he was, you know, a travel influencer at one point. Like some of my friends, I'll tell them, yeah, my accountability buddy, Stephen. And they're like, oh my God, I follow him. He's really hot. Or like, whatever. But. But he and I were, you know, checking in for years and then we finally met in person a couple years ago. And that friendship just truly went from being online to, you know, IRL as well.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Jen Kwok]

But yeah, the. This has really helped me a lot to just be through ups and downs. And that's what also I feel like I got a lot from. Although it's more one sided, a podcast like creative pep talk where you're just like, man, I'm witnessing this person's journey and it makes me feel less alone.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. You know, yeah, I totally, I totally relate to that. And I think we over complicate things like this of I've got to find the perfect person to do this with. And we get, you know, we got to do the same kind of things, have the same goals, whatever it is. And it's got to be this like bestie that we know everything about it. You know, you made it so simple just by putting it out to your followers and just picking a few that worked and rolling with it. And I think it's. I think that's really inspiring. I think a lot of. I think people need to do that. Jen, thank you for doing this. This was super fun. Thanks for raising your hand for doing something like this and, and thanks for coining the term creative pepperonis. That is that my legacy that had a big impact on my everyday honestly. And I, I just completely forgot about. All right, that's your CTA for today. Go get yourself an accountability partner. Get a buddy. If you don't got one, get one and get some of those Google forms going. I love this idea because I love the idea of having a record and kind of a document beyond my notes app that has an ability to string together some consistency and some patterns. Because for me, my creative energy and my ideas and my direction feels so all over the place every single week. You know what I'm interested in, what I'm focused on, what I think matters. It can just be all over the place and I'd love a place to kind of see a bigger picture and also a different set of eyes to help me see what the patterns are, see what I'm consistently interested in, and just have something that grounds that whole experience a little bit. So I love that idea. Encourage you to do it. I'm gonna explore doing it myself. And massive thanks to Jen Kwok for coming on here and doing a live Ask Dr. Pizza. Go check out Jen Jenn kwok.com J-E-N K W O K.com Massive thanks to Sophie Miller for editing and co producing this show. Thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for audio and video edits and sound design. Thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band why for our theme music and soundtrack. And thanks to all of you for listening. Until we speak again, stay pent up.